Wooden Boat Survey

[riveter]

I have an H28 ( a classic)...I baby this boat like it was my first born. Now my insurer say I need to haul her out for a "full" survey. I'm gonna lose sleep over this... when I see these "survey guys", smashing the hulls, poking knives etc..etc...like they are some God, it makes my blood boil. Does anyone have any suggestions how to broach the subject of being gentle with the survey guy. I'm hiring him after all, but he is ultimatly working for the insurance company.
suggestions, feedback, hold my hand:(

[reddog]

riveter,if you are hiring and paying for the surveyor then they are working for you.I would make inquiries into who has experience surveying a wooden boat of your vintage.You may have to pay to bring the surveyor in from another area but for the experience and professionalism it would be worth it.A good survey will not damage your boat but will be thorough and should take the day.Is your insurer telling you which surveyor to use?If so I would question their motives and request to use a surveyor of your choice.It may be wise to sit down with your insurer and find out what specifically their concerns are and what areas they wish to focus on.Get this in writing if possible.Finally make sure whoever you hire has the relevant certifications and good references and you are comfortable with their approach.Good luck.

Earl

[Larks]

Surveyors work to a specific job brief and won't (shouldn't) do any more or less than the job brief that you provide them if it is you that are engaging him/her rather than the insurance company.

If you engage an experienced wooden boat surveyor they are unlikely to do anything that will harm your boat and if you there are a few of these beasties for you to chose from (experienced wooden boat surveyors as opposed to general marine surveyors) you should be able to interview them against your brief. This will give you a pretty quick understanding of how well they will respect you and your boat. Just make sure that you do determine their wooden boat experience before engaging them, most surveyors these days work around commercial marine requirements - plastic, aluminium, steel etc so don't necessarily have any experience with wooden boats at all.

Has the insurance company given you a list of requirements for the survey? A "full survey" is a bit open ended for a brief to a surveyor. You can add additional criteria for your own purposes or even perhaps limit the scope of the brief to cover the criteria without requiring excessive poking and prodding.

Do you have any photos of your boat that you can show us? There are a few of us H28 owners and fans on the forum here.

[Larks]

Sorry Earl, I posted while you were doing the same but good to see that we are saying the same thing

[2MeterTroll]

make them sign a waver before they get on the boat and a contract to repair any damage done while inspecting the boat. that should scare off the buzzards then talk to the her/him and see if he is actually qualified to look at your boat. then run him/her through the professional wringer and see if s/he washes clean. course if you have anything you want to fudge then making sure your got an honest surveyor might not be what you want.

[rbgarr]

Ask the surveyors you choose from what exactly they will be looking at in the boat and how they will test for things they may suspect need further investigation. Removing selected fastenings may be a part of his routine, but he should be prepared to minimize damage and mark any fastening he finds that needs replacing clearly. Digging around with an awl or knife is crude and unnecessary. His job is not to damage your boat in the process of rendering his opinion.

[James McMullen]

riveter, I know guys in Anacortes who have the specialized knowledge needed for classic wooden boats. If you can't find someone in Saanich who you trust, I'd be happy to hook you up with who we use professionally down here.

Be aware, the surveyor must do a certain amount of "poking" to actually do his job correctly. You're going to need to get used to the idea that he's going to pop out a few bungs and remove a few fasteners here and there to really check out the health of your boat. Shiny paint and varnish can hide some real structural issues. If you get a guy who really knows what he is doing, he will minimise cosmetic damage as a matter of course while still attending to the real nitty-gritty that matters.

[riveter]

I will talk with the insurance broker in more depth , and ask more specific questions. Feedback is great so far...thanks...
but there no way I would let the survey pop bungs and pull a few fastners...bronze ringnails.

[Larks]

Any chance of a bigger pic' and a few more??? She looks lovely from what I could see but it is a very small photo and I'm sure she's even nicer closer up.

[peter radclyffe]

I have an H28 ( a classic)...I baby this boat like it was my first born. Now my insurer say I need to haul her out for a "full" survey. I'm gonna lose sleep over this... when I see these "survey guys", smashing the hulls, poking knives etc..etc...like they are some God, it makes my blood boil. Does anyone have any suggestions how to broach the subject of being gentle with the survey guy. I'm hiring him after all, but he is ultimatly working for the insurance company.
suggestions, feedback, hold my hand:(
video and sound record everything he does,

[Larks]

video and sound record everything he does,


That shouldn't be necessary, particularly if he's working for you, it would certainly be a great way to get a professional marine surveyor offside very quickly and would more than likely be a very good reason for him to drop the job. If you have any concerns with anything that he has done or damage caused certainly photograph it and let him know that you have done so and give him copies. It will help if you need to make any claim on his insurance if he is the cause of any unlikely serious and unnecessary damage.

[reddog]

Larks,no problem we seem to be on the same page. ;)
riveter,I can't imagine a competent surveyor not wanting to pop off a few bungs for inspection.Where it is ring nailed I doubt they would even attempt to withdraw a fastener.Is this a strip planked hull?Using ring nails to fasten a carvel planked hull would be unconventional.

Earl

[RFNK]

Using ring nails to fasten a carvel planked hull would be unconventional.


Especially from a guy called `Riveter'! Rick

[rbgarr]

AFAIK insurance surveys don't go as far as pre-purchase surveys. Ask your insurance company what exactly they need. A "full survey" answer is vague.

[hansp77]

After restoration, just before launch, we had our boat surveyed.
Unfortunately I couldn't be there for the day, my partner was there instead.
The next day I turn up to launch the boat, and find that he has poked around 40-50 small but rather deep holes into the deadwood of the keel and into my ply hull all the way up to the waterline. He didn't tap the wood, or try anything else, other than just systematically poking holes in the wood, again and again- meanwhile dominating my partners objections saying it must be done. Who the hell pokes hole after hole, 1mm across and 5-6mm deep into 12mm plywood? I could have murdered him. With no time to do anything else (yard boys, tractor, travellift all waiting), I just filled all those that I could quickly find with some fresh antifoul paint before it went into the water. Due to the power he held over our insurance, or not, I bit my tongue- we got our insurance, and becuase we went with the same company as the prior owner got away with not getting quite a 'full survey" and got it alot cheaper, and kept that ass from touching the boat again.

Next time I will be telling them (never him again) that I will be sure to poke as many holes in them as they leave in my boat. I'll even stand around and follow them with a bloody great gaff hook if it helps.

I could not believe it.:mad:

[peter radclyffe]

riveter, I know guys in Anacortes who have the specialized knowledge needed for classic wooden boats. If you can't find someone in Saanich who you trust, I'd be happy to hook you up with who we use professionally down here.

Be aware, the surveyor must do a certain amount of "poking" to actually do his job correctly. You're going to need to get used to the idea that he's going to pop out a few bungs and remove a few fasteners here and there to really check out the health of your boat. Shiny paint and varnish can hide some real structural issues. If you get a guy who really knows what he is doing, he will minimise cosmetic damage as a matter of course while still attending to the real nitty-gritty that matters.
i agree, if he doesnt check the fastenings, skin fittings and fastenings how can you call it a survey,

[reddog]

Peter,the difference between tapping and banging.Mayby she thought she could scare out some termites.:DI would have been tempted to do the same to her car,...."it shouldn't dent...",indeed.

Earl

[michigangeorge]

After 45+ boats I can honestly say ALL surveyors are not worth the money to blow them to hell! They work first of all, for themselves. This means that if you are not there that they will spend a little time doing a cursory inspection of your boat, fill out some bull-sh-t paperwork with a hold harmless clause covering everything they missed and move on after counting the # of life jackets aboard and the experation date of the flares. They owe their future business to the brokerage or boatyard which gives them constant referalls, not to the chump that is actually paying them! Yes, some of those" proffessional" s you will be hiring for the insurance company have never done a survey on a woodenboat but the insurance will accept him because he spent the bucks to get a letterhead. I chuckle everytime I see the surveying course put on by our sponsers (I'll get kicked out of here for this!) because I hired one of these clowns to survey a boat I was interested in and it was very evident that the survey was done in the brokers interest (who refers future jobs his way) than mine as the offsite buyer. They just do not understand that they are your eyes and ears if you cannot see the boat yourself and since you are the man that is paying them - THEY are FU--ING working in your best interest! Not worrying about if the boatyard or seller may be upset with them. When I ask for high quality close-up photos that is what I expect to recieve in this age of digital cameras. When I ask if the boat was done correctly - the response should not be that it was done to industry standards ( everything stuck together with 5200)
I do not give a damn if the bilge pump is working, if it is not sized correctly, missing a proper inlet screen or cannot work right given the lift required.
I could go on and on here but "the big boys in the industry" will show up with their BS defense for their existence. If your required survey is only to maintain your boat insurance - hire the cheapest guy you can find with a letterhead (a friend and a visit to your local copy/printing store) If you are really concerned about the condition of your vessel and the safety of your crew, find the most knowledgable old fart hanging around the waterfront and ask for his help !
The next surveyor I hire will need to sign a contract stating he is responsible for each of those (little?) things he may have missed. I am fully aware that there are many "uninspectable " areas on a boat and do not ask him to take the boat apart or be held responsible for such but he better find any problems well before I lay eyes on the boat!

[py]

Go on, tell us what you really think!!

[riveter]

Especially from a guy called `Riveter'! Rick
Why do you assume that "riveter" is a dude?:D
Back to the 21st century.
The Broker says its a "condition and evaluation" survey..and needs to be done at least every three years... Firstly, when a vessel has an impeccable record as mine, and under profesional stewardship....bringing her up every 3 years to be subject to inspection how "one" sees fit is insane to me. I've never liked insurance companies, never needed them in my life (so far), don't trust them all the same. But to be responsible we need to be insured..and most marinas, including mine, require insurance under contract. So....I have to pay the devil, close my eyes, let him..or her make dents, submit thier fancy dancy opnions to the insurer..then let the insurnace company derive their opnion..conversely raise my annual insurance rates.

Reddog, its carvel..why do you think bronze ringnails are unconventional?

[rbgarr]

From a useful website regarding the definition of and what one should anticipate seeing in a competent Condition and Valuation survey:

C&V Defined: An insurance survey is a limited form of survey that is intended to assist insurance underwriters in making underwriting decisions. The survey has two primary purposes: (1) to identify the vessel, its equipment, condition and general value, and (2) to identify defects, damages or hazardous conditions that pose a potential threat to the safety of the vessel and its passengers, or any other such condition that is likely to result in loss or damage.

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/SurveyGuide.htm

(I presume you are referring to a comment by your insurance broker and not a yacht broker.)

[reddog]

riviter,with ring nails it becomes much more difficult to make repairs without damaging the planks as they are nigh on impossible to remove once driven.With screws you at least have a chance of backing them out and with copper rivits you grind off the roves or burrs and punch them out providing one has access to the interior.It's just not a common method of fastening a carvel planked hull.

Earl

[James McMullen]

Reddog is right about the ring nails. If your boat was fastened rib-to-plank with ringshank nails, that was a faulty decision for the ultimate lifespan of your boat. Ringnails are pretty damn impossible to remove cleanly, or to tighten up when something gets loose or needs to be replaced. Rivets for ultra light scantlings or screws for everything else are the superior and correct choice for boats you hope to hand down to your grandkids. Ringnails, alas, are going to make it more expensive to fix if you ever have a crash.

[Nanoose]

Hey, riveter! ;)...dock mate! :D
Dave said he sent you a note, but I don't see it here.
When we bought Nanoose, we had our shipwright do the survey - much more knowledgeable about wooden boats, and did a great job (using the previous survey, which we had asked for as buyers of the boat, as the 'form'). We simply transfered the ins. policy over from the previous owner. At the switch in title, the insurers wanted a survey, but have not asked for anything since.
So, a couple of ideas - have one of the good local shipwrights do it for you, assuming ins.co. says ok (you can convince them the shipwright'll do a better job)....and maybe find a new ins.co. to avoid the 'every 3 years' thing....
Just thinking.
Deb
p.s. nice to see you posting! :)

[RFNK]

riviter,with ring nails it becomes much more difficult to make repairs without damaging the planks as they are nigh on impossible to remove once driven.With screws you at least have a chance of backing them out and with copper rivits you grind off the roves or burrs and punch them out providing one has access to the interior.It's just not a common method of fastening a carvel planked hull.


Nevertheless ....


Why do you assume that "riveter" is a dude?:D

Hey, if `dude' means something cool then, of course!! :D:D Rick

[hm0316]

riviter, Are you using an insurance brokerage firm that specializes in wooden boats? There are a couple that regularly advertise in WoodenBoat and I have dealt extensively with one of them. They have a much better idea of what is needed for a wooden boat than my regular insurance carrier (who was uneasy with insuring a wooden boat at all). Also, I haven't had the sort of problems some of the other posters have had with damage from surveys. hm0316

[RFNK]

I've only used one surveyor and he's great - the only hole he put in the boat was where he punched his little hammer into a rotten plank, and his reports are detailed and comprehensive. he provides, in effect a workplan. He'll remove fasteners etc. if that's what you want but in my case, he made a list of items of that kind that he felt should be done. For insurance, he's suggest that he do this and he'd do it with your permission.

I think this has already been a most useful thread. Hearing the stories from some who've had bad service should encourage us all to set very clear parameters if engaging a surveyor. Obviously it's a good idea to extract fasteners etc., and maybe even give the hull a bit of a thump here and there, but I think the lesson is that we should find out what the surveyor will actually do, and how he will do it, beforehand, so that alternatives can be considered or damage can be minimised, or, in cases where damage is just necessary, at least it's understood beforehand. Rick

[riveter]

Hey Nanoose, yep I tried that when i bought her..I hired a London England trained boatbuilder to inspect my choice of vessel. The insurer said it had to be a marine suryeror. I hired both anyway..the shipwright to assure me ..and the "marine surveror to satisfy the underwriters in thier fancy suits and ties, eating sushi for lunch!.... I shake my head again. Anyway, I will broach this subject again with my insurance broker, and see if they will honor the judgement of a "true shipwright"...If I fail, would you mind sharing the name of your underwriter/broker, Of course I would keep your referral in confindence as not to turn cats paws into rollers!
Not sure there are any insurance companies in Canada that specialize in wooden classics.

BTW/ I'm off to removing my mast early in the morning. It took 9 months to find the spruce that was right....the new one will be back on her in 2 weeks...planing, scarfing, gluing and clamping, sanding.....plus many coats of varnish to go. Gonna be a buzy 2 weeks
I'd post pics of the whole building process, but can't quite figure out how to do that on this forum without making a little wee wee pictures.

[outofthenorm]

Riveter, are you certain you need hull insurance to satisfy the marina? Liability is usually the only concern around here, and that's easy to get as an extension of your home insurance. I have a $2 million rider to cover it. Twenty five years ago, I decided that I would not buy hull insurance - it has saved me roughly the $800 a year for 25 years. That's a lot of dough. The truth is that if I lost the boat through accident, it would break my heart, but not break the bank.

- Norm

[hansp77]

Strangely, we need full insurance including of course liability for our mooring field, and yet they seem to care not a whit about ensuring our moorings are up to scratch:confused: Entirely voluntary it seems to ensure they are maintained.
Sure, their worried as hell about my boat sinking on its mooring, but not at all about it breaking its chain and destroying a few other boats:rolleyes:

[Dan McCosh]

Liability from household insurance seems to generally only cover smaller boats.

[riveter]

Captian Intrepid, thanks for the posting tips!

"ask not, what can your insurance company do for you...but what you can do for your insurance company!" That seems to be a motto we must demand a reverse on.
Everyone, with all your great suggestions, I feel confident I will find the right soulution for me.:)