Amazing vinegar.

[floatingkiwi]

Who would have known?
Someone mentioned vinegar to clean up epoxy. I had no clue how effective it would be. I had some still curing tacky epoxy and added some balsamic vinegar. Completely dissolved ALL the epoxy from every surface so well I couldn't tell it had been there.
Is this a well known thing?
Who needs acetone?
This stuff is better. Cleans the skin safely and all.
Sweet.

[P.L.Lenihan]

Yup,great stuff and been using for years. Downside? You're haunted by strange urges to get an order of fries and/or feelings that you've already had some but can't remember when:)

Peter

[The Bigfella]

Don't clean your skin with solvents. Guess where all the nasties go... straight into your skin. Clean your hands with a waterless hand cleaner... it balls the epoxy up and voila - gone.

[floatingkiwi]

So what you say is if I get epoxy on the skin and reduce it to mud with the vinegar, I can absorb this through the skin risking health problems?
Explain waterless hand cleaner.

[The Bigfella]

http://www.permatex.com/images/pages/FastOrangeGroup.jpg

http://www.permatex.com/brand_fast_orange.htm

[Bill Huson]

Yes, vinegar rocks! One warning: do not allow vinegar near metal tools. Vinegar is an acid and will rust metal almost instantly! If you clean epoxy off a metal tool with vinegar, rinse vinegar off tool with clear water! Then spray WD-40 or CRC 6-56 to banish water from tool.

[Gold Rock]

I was turned on to vinegar some while ago for cleaning up epoxy. Works well.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

I believe what Bigfella meant, floatingkiwi, is that epoxy disolved with ACETONE will be "nasty" for your skin.

I clean my hands with Vinegar while I'm cleaning off the tools with it, then follow up with orage Goop for my hands.

I'm going to try a "protective hand cream" in addition to gloves for my upcoming project. In the past I generally don gloves for epoxy work. It's so satisfying to strip off gooky gloves and have clean hands! The cream is being added simply because the project is a bit involved and I may end up puncturing the thin gloves before I'm done.

Moby Nick

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
Yes, it's my understanding that acetone will carry epoxy into the skin whereas vinegar won't.

But there's no need to waste good balsamic on it. Plain white vinegar's fine for epoxy -- keep the balsamic for the salad. :)

Mike

[Thorne]

Previous threads here have indicated several things about using vinegar to clean up epoxy:

1. It only works on the hardener part of the epoxy, so it is not as effective on cured epoxy or just the goop half of the mix.

2. There was quite a discussion on the 'penetration of the skin' aspect of using vinegar. Bottom line seemed to be that you shouldn't be getting epoxy on your skin in the first place (see various horrific tales of epoxy reactions after building up a sensitivity), and if you do, you want to clean it up with something that won't penetrate the skin or spread it around.

Personally I still use it for cleaning plastic spreaders and other non-metal tools, and on myself -- particularly if I get epoxy in my hair or beard, but I do wear nitrile gloves during the cleanup process.

Just because the mix of vinegar and epoxy smells like Italian food don't mean that it ain't very bad for ya...

[Canoez]

I'm with Mike on this - save the Balsamic for the kitchen! (mmm... Pesto and Balsamic vinaigrette pasta salad...) White pickling vinegar - avaialble by the gallon at the supermarket is just fine and lots cheaper. I find it works best on partially or un-cured resin as it inhibits the cure.

Thorne's words ring especially true on the sensitization. The waterless handcleaner works OK, but barrier cream should be used along with gloves and all the usual protective equipment.

[Lew Barrett]

The third person to say....you should never have to clean epoxy from your hands!
You must wear nitrile gloves while working with epoxy. In fact you should wear gloves while working with all construction chemicals; paints, solvents and the like. I even use them when tacking off because I don't like the sticky feeling a tack cloth gives me.

Sooner or later almost everyone who works with epoxy will develop an allergic
reaction unless proper precautions are taken. Or so I'm told. And I prefer to reserve liver abuse solely for "solvents" like rum! Why waste a perfectly good liver on epoxy or acetone?

[Captain Blight]

In addition to wearing gloves, try this trick: Put on 2 or 3 pair. When the top set gets all gummed up, strip them off to reveal a clean pear underneath.

[DDan]

I wear gloves when working with epoxy without fail. However, there are always times, say when you remove a glove to use a tool or to handle small fasteners, that you get a bit on your hands. I recently started using barrier hand cream under gloves and it seems to help in these situations.

I use several kinds of gloves, depending on the job. I find the nitrile exam gloves often a bit too delicate. I try to keep a heavier pair on hand for jobs where my hands see a bit of abrasion or when there is a good chance of snags. Here's something to try: use a heavier pair, on the verge of too large. You can shake these off to grab a tool you don't want to get gooped-up. As mentioned above, you can also wear nitrile under heavier gloves.

Acetone attacks many gloves, so be careful there, too. Nitrile is "not recommended". See http://www.ansellpro.com/download/Ansell_7thEditionChemicalResistanceGuide.pdf or similar guides on the net.

BTW. Vinegar works well. My assumption is that as an acid it reacts with amine (base) hardener and the resin, stopping the hardening. The resulting schmutz can easily be washed off with soap.

[Canoez]

In addition to wearing gloves, try this trick: Put on 2 or 3 pair. When the top set gets all gummed up, strip them off to reveal a clean pear underneath.

Quite a magic trick, Blighty - do kid's parties, too?;)

You do know not to eat and drink around epoxy, right?

[floatingkiwi]

In addition to wearing gloves, try this trick: Put on 2 or 3 pair. When the top set gets all gummed up, strip them off to reveal a clean pear underneath.

Cripes. I have so much trouble gettin one pair on. I have big trouble finding any type of glove that fits my mitts. Extra large and it cuts the circulation off. When I do find a pair I try to get more than one if I can.
I am not sure why Capt blight goes covering fruit with his gloves but hey..whatever man.
Good one canoez.

[peter radclyffe]

I believe what Bigfella meant, floatingkiwi, is that epoxy disolved with ACETONE will be "nasty" for your skin.

I clean my hands with Vinegar while I'm cleaning off the tools with it, then follow up with orage Goop for my hands.

I'm going to try a "protective hand cream" in addition to gloves for my upcoming project. In the past I generally don gloves for epoxy work. It's so satisfying to strip off gooky gloves and have clean hands! The cream is being added simply because the project is a bit involved and I may end up puncturing the thin gloves before I'm done.

Moby Nick
i once worked for a day to learn laying up glass cloth over our strip plank hull with peter limmers gang , who did that every day, how i dont know, these guys were bulletproof, and seemed to feel nothing, at the end of the day one guy filled a bucket with acetone, and washed his hands, face, hair, head, dont forget behind the ears, ive seen some strange things on boats, but that was unbelievable

[floatingkiwi]

i once worked for a day to learn laying up glass cloth over our strip plank hull with peter limmers gang , who did that every day, how i dont know, these guys were bulletproof, and seemed to feel nothing, at the end of the day one guy filled a bucket with acetone, and washed his hands, face, hair, head, dont forget behind the ears, ive seen some strange things on boats, but that was unbelievable

He literally splashed pure acetone on his face. You actually witnessed this?

[WX]

You're haunted by strange urges to get an order of fries and/or feelings that you've already had some but can't remember when:)

That explains the strange cravings:D
White vinegar is fine, i use it all the time. I then rinse the brushes in clean water and soak them in methylated spirits and that strips the base out.

[Bob Smalser]

Who would have known? Brownell's and the Goo Brothers for at least 40 years.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5305809/67802912.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17862189/279174069.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3866245/47638200.jpg

[Captain Blight]

Nice work, Bob, but I can't help but notice a distinct lack of fruit on your workbench. Do you keep them in your gloves as well?

[peter radclyffe]

He literally splashed pure acetone on his face. You actually witnessed this?
yes

[WX]

Acetone also strips the fat cells out of your skin...so I have been told.

[floatingkiwi]

Who would have known? Brownell's and the Goo Brothers for at least 40 years.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5305809/67802912.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17862189/279174069.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3866245/47638200.jpg

Ok, jolly good.
Bob, I understand you are a bit of an authority on matters, but I would not have guessed your abilities ventured into the realms of psychokinetics. ( levitated instrument in foreground of top pic)

[BarnacleGrim]

Didya use Balsamico Tradizionale? That's the good stuff! :p

[floatingkiwi]

Yeah, it is the only vinegar I use. I got 3 or 4 kinds of it. Might go get some more.

[BarnacleGrim]

I was only joking, you didn't seriously pour 12-25 year old balsamico on your epoxy, did you? :eek:

Or did you use the Aceto Balsamico di Modena that you can buy in grocery stores?

[stevedwyer]

There was a study at MIT which examined alternate methods of injection using solvents.
This is exactly what happens when we use any type of solvent to clean our skin. ( except water )
Solvents for injection work by breaking down the protective oily layer of our skin, rendering our skin permeable.

I learned a long time ago from a master that mineral oil is best to use for all-around clean-up.
True, it does not remove epoxy. But for the times I have got a bit of urethane or epoxy on my skin, the mineral oil does, in time, work it's way under the epoxy and loosens it. Mineral oil, then soap and water. I've known some that use linseed oil as well.

I have the same problem finding gloves because of my large hands.
I buy the x-large nitrile gloves by the box and they work out fine.

Vinegar is used by several professional wood finishers I've known to bleach some of the color from wood to obtain an even tone.
(Ammonia is used as well)
I don't agree with this as in every case seems to take the life out of the appearance and depth.
Therefore, I might suggest caution when using vinegar on areas of brightwork.( with dark woods and possibly with oak. )

[Kermit]

Costco white vinegar, by the case. Works to kill weeds growing up through the cracks in driveways and walks too. Apply with a sprayer. Oh, and I use it in the shop too...

[WillG]

Can also be used to free up zippers that salt water has encrusted and they will not operate.

[Wiley Baggins]

Can also be used to free up zippers that salt water has encrusted and they will not operate.

You must be extremely patient...or equally prescient.

[floatingkiwi]

I was only joking, you didn't seriously pour 12-25 year old balsamico on your epoxy, did you? :eek:

Or did you use the Aceto Balsamico di Modena that you can buy in grocery stores?

Aceto Balsamico di Modena.

[pcford]

Not to mention vinegar's ability to clean salt rime from your boat.

Vinegar's cleaning ability with epoxy suggests to me the reason white oak does not glue well is the acid in the wood.

Acetone is way skunky of course but it has the fewest impurities in it...it is a relatively healthy solvent...if the fumes don't kill ya.

[StevenBauer]

You guys are starting to sound like Heloise. :D



Steven

[JormaS]

Makes a good deodorant. Make a 5 per cent solution and use a hair spray pump bottle. I haven´t used anything else in ten years.

[floatingkiwi]

You guys are starting to sound like Heloise. :D



Steven
FAST FACTS
Don’t throw out empty spray bottles; instead wash, label and reuse:

Add water and several drops of lemon or orange essential and use to cover up smelly trash odors.
Fill with water to mist plants.
Mix a solution of half vinegar and half water in the bottle and store with paper towels in your car to clean dirty windows.
http://www.heloise.com/images/header_recipes2.gif (http://www.heloise.com/recipes.html)

[SBrookman]

Not so sure that the dangers of acetone aren't exaggerated some. My wife just went to the doctors for treatment of some skin issue, the name of which I can't pronounce or spell, and they gave her a wash down with it. She was alarmed as we've always heard about it being absorbed, but the doctor said that was hogwash, or something more doctoraly.

But I'm still sticking with barrier cream, gloves and vinegar, as I don't trust everything doctors say.

[Canoez]

Not so sure that the dangers of acetone aren't exaggerated some. My wife just went to the doctors for treatment of some skin issue, the name of which I can't pronounce or spell, and they gave her a wash down with it. She was alarmed as we've always heard about it being absorbed, but the doctor said that was hogwash, or something more doctoraly.

But I'm still sticking with barrier cream, gloves and vinegar, as I don't trust everything doctors say.

Sounds like a pretty extreme treatment! :eek:

Acetone and some of the higher order solvents are very good at de-fatting the skin, but to see the effects takes a bit of exposure.

A former co-worker who was responsible for cleaning injection molds (On a daily basis) had hands that had the look of "cottage cheese" on the soft parts of the palm from de-fatting in cleaning solutions. One cleaner he used was Methylene Chloride (now banned) and the other was Acetone.

Another co-worker did lots of work with fiberglass and polyester resin. He was fairly good at wearing protective equipment, but didn't when he cleaned up his tools with acetone at the end of the day. His hands had a similar appearance and were always dry, cracked and chapped, no matter what time of year. It looked darned painful.

Granted, these guys used these solvents on a daily basis, but you should always wear the appropriate protective gear. (Gloves, masks, goggles, barrier cream, etc...) Glad to hear you're planning on using the protective gear.

[peter radclyffe]

Sounds like a pretty extreme treatment! :eek:

Acetone and some of the higher order solvents are very good at de-fatting the skin, but to see the effects takes a bit of exposure.

A former co-worker who was responsible for cleaning injection molds (On a daily basis) had hands that had the look of "cottage cheese" on the soft parts of the palm from de-fatting in cleaning solutions. One cleaner he used was Methylene Chloride (now banned) and the other was Acetone.

Another co-worker did lots of work with fiberglass and polyester resin. He was fairly good at wearing protective equipment, but didn't when he cleaned up his tools with acetone at the end of the day. His hands had a similar appearance and were always dry, cracked and chapped, no matter what time of year. It looked darned painful.

Granted, these guys used these solvents on a daily basis, but you should always wear the appropriate protective gear. (Gloves, masks, goggles, barrier cream, etc...) Glad to hear you're planning on using the protective gear.
no matter what creams i try, i use olve oil, hands and arms, and if dexterity is not needed, big fishermans gloves for a big spar or stem job, i hate epoxy, its not wooden boatbuilding, its composite

[Bob Cleek]

He literally splashed pure acetone on his face. You actually witnessed this?

Lot's of times, although it's never been advisable to do this with a cigarette in your mouth.

Years ago, long before OSHA and the eco-nazis took over, that's the way it was done. Back in the days of lead and oil paint, professional painters always cleaned up at the end of the day with whatever the strongest solvent at hand might have been, commonly "rinsing" with clean turpentine. Given exposure in moderation, acetone won't hurt you, although the fumes can gas ya. If you are working with these chemicals day in and day out, though, you'd be well advised to follow all the cautionary procedures. A weekend boatbuilder who cleans his hands with acetone once a month is one thing. Daily exposure to epoxy and related solvents is another.

On the other hand, vinegar works nearly as well for epoxy (though not for paint) and is a lot cheaper than refined solvents. White vinegar is my first choice... in the big bottles from Costco.

[BrianM]

To minimize stuff sticking to your hands... use a heavy handcream like Eucerin BEFORE you get dirty:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31PJJK7XZ0L._SL500_AA200_.jpg

It reallymakes cleanup extremely easy as epoxy and oil paint don't like to adhere to the stuff..

plus it softens your hands while you do the painting...

[McKee]

i once worked for a day to learn laying up glass cloth over our strip plank hull with peter limmers gang , who did that every day, how i dont know, these guys were bulletproof, and seemed to feel nothing, at the end of the day one guy filled a bucket with acetone, and washed his hands, face, hair, head, dont forget behind the ears, ive seen some strange things on boats, but that was unbelievable

I worked in a production boat shop (as a carpenter), and the older glass guys did that all the time. Terrifying when it was the smokers.

[pcford]

Who would have known?
Someone mentioned vinegar to clean up epoxy. I had no clue how effective it would be. I had some still curing tacky epoxy and added some balsamic vinegar. Completely dissolved ALL the epoxy from every surface so well I couldn't tell it had been there.
Is this a well known thing?
Who needs acetone?
This stuff is better. Cleans the skin safely and all.
Sweet.

Balsamic vinegar? You must be one of those yuppy guys.

Yes, works fine. I have always thought that the ability of acidic vinegar to clean off epoxy is a clue to why acidic white oak is a problem to glue with epoxy.

[donald branscom]

Balsamic vinegar? You must be one of those yuppy guys.

Yes, works fine. I have always thought that the ability of acidic vinegar to clean off epoxy is a clue to why acidic white oak is a problem to glue with epoxy.

May I recommend a rasberry vinegar. HAhahahhhaha

[marcin]

Acetone is nasty. It is used as a carrier for topically applied chemicals in animal experimentation. It even penetrates insect cuticle "armour". Remember, that the cell membrane (the "wall" that keeps the inside of the cell separate from the outside) is composed of a layer of lipids = fats. Acetone, as something miscible in lipids, will carry nasty fat-soluble things that might otherwise be too big molecularly right inside your cells.

In large concentrations it also has a tendency to precipitate proteins out of solution, and these often refuse to go back into solution. Given that we are made of, amongst other things, proteins in solution this is not a good thing. And it displaces water, i.e. dries things out, like skin.

Vinegar, though, is OK. The 5-10% acetic acid that's in it is bugger all. May sting the eyes a bit, but that's all.

[pcford]

Acetone is nasty. It is used as a carrier for topically applied chemicals in animal experimentation. It even penetrates insect cuticle "armour". Remember, that the cell membrane (the "wall" that keeps the inside of the cell separate from the outside) is composed of a layer of lipids = fats. Acetone, as something miscible in lipids, will carry nasty fat-soluble things that might otherwise be too big molecularly right inside your cells.

In large concentrations it also has a tendency to precipitate proteins out of solution, and these often refuse to go back into solution. Given that we are made of, amongst other things, proteins in solution this is not a good thing. And it displaces water, i.e. dries things out, like skin.

Vinegar, though, is OK. The 5-10% acetic acid that's in it is bugger all. May sting the eyes a bit, but that's all.

I believe you...but I read that of the solvents acetone is the least dangerous in terms of nasty things in it. Obviously you should not breathe much of it.

[floatingkiwi]

[quote=pcford;2239325]Balsamic vinegar? You must be one of those yuppy guys.

Yuppy?Just to put ya right, boatwright, where I come from a yuppy is a young urban proffesional. I am none of these things.

[pefjr]

Apple Cider Vinegar : 1 teaspoon a day for arthritis. And 50 other ailments too.

[marcin]

I believe you...but I read that of the solvents acetone is the least dangerous in terms of nasty things in it. Obviously you should not breathe much of it.

That's true, too. As far as nasty goes, benzene (totally illegal now) and toluene (used in hardwood flooring glues) are the worst: neurotoxic AND carcinogenic. They kills ya quickly... and slowly. Any benzene derivative (aromatics) is high on the nasty list. And they tend to linger in the system.

If you like your alcohol (like I do) and what sailor doesn't? Beware of Xylene, or its derivatives. They're strong hepatotoxins. Means they kills da liver (in fact xylene poisoning results in cirrhosis), and boy, we sailors need our livers. That includes breathing the fumes.

Methanol or methylated spirits is also bad. Tends to affect male fertility (chronically breathed in fumes and absorption through the skin too), in addition to being an all-around toxic solvent (when ingested, 100ml, 3 oz. kills most people without hope of rescue).

Acetone is a volatile, small, aliphatic ketone. Tends to be relatively easily transformed by the organism, and because it's so volatile, also may be respired out through the breath and skin. That's why it's relatively safe. It doesn't linger. Its less reactive against physiological processes and genes as well than the above and others.

And I forgot to add. This is no place for political correctness. If you are a woman of reproductive age or younger, don't work with, touch, inhale or otherwise be near this stuff. I mean this. The botany labs at the university I worked at were full of women who worked with organic solvents and ended up being completely infertile. If you absolutely have to (and no man presents himself to do the work for you) see what precautions safety-minded men take, and double them. But it would really be best if the fairer sex limited itself to the solvents being acetone on the fingernails and ethanol in the gullet.

[jonboy]

Vinegar?? all those great attributes are true ...descaling lime encrustations on the hull the shower etc, but save a big wedge by buying acetic acid in any form and for gawd's sake Balsamic vinegar...!!! it's only a finer more controlled wine vinegar, = more expensive due to maturing time....
A few hundred grams of acetic acid crystals in the local ironmongers make hundreds of litres of 'Vinegar' for about a hundreth of the cost... It is the active ingredient of vinegar, though, but I'm not suggesting it at as an alternative to salad dressing.

[floatingkiwi]

Gimme a break on the balsamic vinegar will ya guys. It's all I had in the cupboard. I went and got a gallon of white,(which is actually clear), so all you salad dressing, vinaigrette freaks can rest easy.

[Chip-skiff]

This deserves a bump— the single most useful bit of advice I've gotten on this forum. Plain old household white vinegar really works a treat cleaning uncured epoxy off hands, tools, floors, curious pets.

Four stars and a spot in sailors' heaven for this one.

[dnjost]

In a panic earlier this week when putting on my tux pants to transition form boatbuilder to musician after a round of boatbuilding only to discover a huge drip of unhardened epoxy on my leg from earlier in the afternoon. In a panic, I grabbed the container of Gold Bond hand lotion with aloe and to my surprise it removed all of the goo prior to pulling the tux pants up all the way. Phew...Will keep this handy in case I don't want to smell like salad dressing all afternoon from vinegar.

[floatingkiwi]

This deserves a bump— the single most useful bit of advice I've gotten on this forum. Plain old household white vinegar really works a treat cleaning uncured epoxy off hands, tools, floors, curious pets.

Four stars and a spot in sailors' heaven for this one.

Hey thanks mate. You have made my day. I thought that this mortal time on Earth was the highlight of my existence, but you have reenlightened me on my moving on to things as good or better in my time of passing from this good Planet.
Waves are gonna be hard to beat.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

....
A few hundred grams of acetic acid crystals in the local ironmongers make hundreds of litres of 'Vinegar' for about a hundreth of the cost... ....

Never seen the crystalline form on sale - though in pure for in the lab it lived in a glass bottle - the freezing point is 16.7°C - so on a Monday in winter the bottle would often be colder that that, and the Glacial acetic would (often) be a supercooled liquid - Sometimes the freezing process could be triggered by tapping the reagent bottle with a pen - makes a weird dead thunk noise....


http://wapedia.mobi/en/Wikipedia:Today's_featured_article/December_2,_2005


Pure water-free acetic acid is a colourless hygroscopic liquid that freezes below 16.7 °C to a colourless crystalline solid.

[Peerie Maa]

Im certain that that is what they put in salt and vinegar crispshttp://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:gbvj4LEYAafT5M:http://www.dancingmango.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/crisp1.jpghttp://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://shop.shopblogger.de/images/walkers_saltvinegar.png&imgrefurl=http://wine-in-korea.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.html&usg=__p621InoAbBh8O5Pk3ZVGdTCwnAA=&h=300&w=300&sz=100&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=YK3fDFhw7qMIcM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsalt%2Band%2Bvinegar%2Bcrisps%26hl%3D en%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1:eek:

[Captain Intrepid]

Sometimes the freezing process could be triggered by tapping the reagent bottle with a pen - makes a weird dead thunk noise....

I hear tell you can do that with a bottle of beer too.

[floatingkiwi]

Never seen the crystalline form on sale - though in pure for in the lab it lived in a glass bottle - the freezing point is 16.7°C - so on a Monday in winter the bottle would often be colder that that, and the Glacial acetic would (often) be a supercooled liquid - Sometimes the freezing process could be triggered by tapping the reagent bottle with a pen - makes a weird dead thunk noise....


http://wapedia.mobi/en/Wikipedia:Today's_featured_article/December_2,_2005

Acetic anhydride.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Acetic anhydride.

Ah - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_anhydride - not readily on sale to the public in the UK


Because of its use for the synthesis of heroin by the diacetylation of morphine, acetic anhydride (known as 'AA' in clandestine chemistry circles) is listed as a U.S. DEA List II Precursor,[7] and restricted in many other countries. The largest markets for diverted acetic anhydride continue to be heroin laboratories in Afghanistan.

[Chip-skiff]

Whereas white vinegar is cheap, legal, non-toxic and as a solvent for epoxy, beautifully improbable.

And it works.