Old 12 metre yachts

[Rum_Pirate]

What happens to all the old 12 metre yachts?

I saw this

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/article.php?get=1693
We occasssionaly feature some of the old AC boats, and here's the lastest.
Not pretty...Yacht World had a listing for the 12 Metre USA-49 (designed by the late Gary Mull and built by the Stephens Bros.).
It is listed for $49,950 but I note that the listing has been updated to say that the boat would be scrapped if not sold by June 5th.
Well, June 5th has come and gone, so I don't know if she has indeed been scrapped. The listing is still there so far - anybody know? Thanks to anarchist David for this one.
2008-06-16


Why not sell it for say $1,000.00 or so and save the cost of scrapping it? http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2008/scrapped.jpg

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Wasn't it INTREPID that used to race on Lake Michigan?

I could be wrong on her name, but the boat had a wooden strip hull finished bright.

I used to see her rafted up at the Yacht Club wharf in Michigan City after the first leg of the Tri-State Regatta and the Columbia.

Moby Nick

[rbgarr]

This is Intrepid: http://www.photoboatgallery.com/lightbox/index/category/gallery|2008%20Nantucket%20Race%20Week%20and%20Ope ra%20House|Intrepid/start/0/Intrepid.html

Heritage and Easterner were finished bright. Perhaps it was one of those?

[Paul Pless]

Why not sell it for say $1,000.00 or so and save the cost of scrapping it? lets see 40,000 pounds of lead is worth how much scrap value?
25,000 pounds of aluminum is worth how much scrap value?

[bamamick]

If I am not mistaken they did cut that one up.

Mickey Lake

[Paul Pless]

Where you been off to Mickey? sailing?

[bamamick]

Annapolis, Maryland. I brought a little (wooden) boat back with me.

Mickey Lake

[Paul Pless]

cool... look forward to the thread:)

[Rum_Pirate]

lets see 40,000 pounds of lead is worth how much scrap value?
25,000 pounds of aluminum is worth how much scrap value?

40,000 pounds lead x $1435.00/tonne = $28700.00
25,000 pounds aluminum x $1451/tonne = $18130.75
Sum = $46837.50
To which one has to deduct the cost of
- cutting it up,
- transporting it and
- selling it as scrap to be smelted.

So maybe a little more than $1,000.00 but not $45,000.00 would seem fair and reasonable? :rolleyes:






Sources of prices
http://www.lme.co.uk/lead.asp

LME Official prices for 20 May 2009

Lead $1,435.00
Aluminium $1,451.00

[bamamick]

I am not sure there will be a thread. I have been in a bit of a weird mood lately. It's a 1962 model Penguin class dinghy built by Salentine Boatworks of Wisconsin. On a scale of 1 to 10 for boats that I have bought over the years I'd give it an 8. Maybe a 9. She's in sailing condition right now, came with three pretty crispy sails (one is supposed to be brand new, but none of these lofts are still in business) and a funky old trailer that I have come to love during this long drive. I paid $900 for the lot. A very good deal, I think.

I now have a ride for next year's WOOD regatta. And if they don't actually hold it, I have a ride for those quiet mornings when the land breeze is just wafting across the eastern shore of Mobile Bay, or for exploring the small bays and rivers around here (she came complete with a set of oars and oarlocks).

Anyway. That's enough of that. I am really tired right now.

Mickey Lake

[johnw]

USA was a strange boat, with two rudders and a "geek," which was a sort of keel with minimal area to hold the ballast. She showed flashes of speed, but was often unmanageable. Don't know if she's quite what you'd want at a classic yacht regatta.

[Don Z.]

The Obituary (http://molnar-marine.com/us49-demo.html)

Better Days:http://molnar-marine.com/us-49-4sale/USA.jpg

The End:
http://molnar-marine.com/us-49-4sale/US-49-ghst-shp.jpg

Site mentions that the boat was a trial horse for US-61. US-61 was defeated by US-55 in the semis... So we know US-55 and KZ-7 were both faster than US-61. And Tom Blackaller chose 61 over 49. This wasn't exactly a 12mR with a lot of history. By that, what I mean is you have a racing boat, that really is only good for racing other 12s, and you need 10 of your closest friends to take her out on a day sail, plus the maintenance/storage/etc. costs...

It's difficult to justify the expense, isn't it? Pb was for sale at $1/#, 2000# minimum. So he had that going for him...

[rbgarr]

A photo gallery of 12mrs: http://www.12mrclass.com/cms/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=444&catid=7

[Salty Sailor]

There is a pair of Australian boats x charter by the look of them in QLD Australia for sale. 150 thou or so each.. If I was in the area I would pay for a ride as long as it wasn't too pricey...

http://yachthub.com/ad_img/3/0/7/9/6/1_2.jpg
http://yachthub.com/ad_img/3/0/7/9/9/4_2.jpg

http://yachthub.com/ad_img/3/0/7/9/9/6_2.jpg

http://yachthub.com/ad_img/3/0/7/9/9/1_2.jpg

[bloggs68]

A better fate for this one..

http://chancegger.blastoff.com.au/history.html

AD

[rbgarr]

Noah's next boat!

[Noah]

Mine? I was hoping to downsize...

[bamamick]

A 30 square would be a great boat for Burlington :).

Mickey Lake

[johnw]

My bad, I was thinking of US 61, which is still sailing. And still strange.

[bamamick]

Back to the topic at hand, it really is pretty amazing how many 12 metres are still sailing. I have that big book on the 12's by Dwyer Jones and it lists boat for boat where they are and what happened to them. It is amazing how many of the 1st rule 12's are still kicking. Lloyd's standards mean something, apparently.

Mickey Lake

[ahp]

For years there were two 12 meters in Luder's Yard in Stamford, Connecticut, with rainwater running out of their garboard seams. I suspect they were landfilled when water front condos were built there.

[Chris.]

Coincidentally, in escaping from a day-long briefing from Accenture, I spotted Gretel II moored across from the Accenture and Google offices, across from the casino. She was the AC challenger in 1970, losing to Intrepid 1- 4.
G II was the last wooden 12 built and she is looking spotless: the laid deck is back to replace the aluminium one they put in for one of the 1980s challenges. Grinders have gone and replaced with powered winches so there must be an engine someplace. But just immaculate. Cell-phone photos so quality is not great.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3563/3564924119_590f41496e_o.jpg


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3379/3564923047_570e3c30f1_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3341/3565740464_49ab294972_o.jpg


And as a little bonus, a very nice 6 mr was also moored there. Venger from about 1960ish IIRC, designed by Bjarne Aas. Looking a LOT better than last time I saw her.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3029/3564925459_13e192c7bd_o.jpg

[bamamick]

Wow! Both 'Gretel' and the 6mR are looking very sharp. What a wonderful thing to see, two such boats being cared for like the treasures that they are.

Thanks, Chris.

Mickey Lake

[rbgarr]

The Gretel II-Intrepid series was a really interesting one and not a bad way for the era of wooden Twelves in the AC to close. http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1084106/2/index.htm

Sir Frank Packer had some quotable moments :D :

"... appealing against the New York Yacht Club was like complaining to your mother-in-law about your wife."

(Regarding the decision that) future challengers could not use American sail fabrics: Sir Frank Packer (http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Frank_Packer/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm), prime backer of Gretel, observed that when Australia won the cup, the Deed of Gift would be altered to limit competition to boats "lined with kangaroo hide".

[RFNK]

I was at Newport RI in 2000 and recall seeing a number of the famous 12ms there and I understood they were available for charter for a day or two. Is that still the case and which ones are still there? I think I remember Intrepid being there. Rick

[rbgarr]

http://www.classic12metercharters.com/

[RFNK]

Thanks! I just did a search on Intrepid too and apparently she's also available for charter at Newport. Quite a fleet there!
I also did some quick searches on Gretel and Dame Pattie - Australian 12ms defeated by Intrepid. The results might not be right but ... apparently Gretel was bought by a European and shipped to Italy for restoration in 2002 - I wonder where she is now? and Dame Pattie is available for charter from Vancouver Island. Good thing Gretel II and Australia II are still in the Land of Oz!

Isn't Gretel II beautiful? Great pictures too! My phone takes pictures too - usually when I'm trying to use it as a phone!!

Whoops, I just realized a mistake - it was Gretel II that was defeated by Intrepid. Gretel was defeated by Weatherly in the early 60s

Rick

[Chris Coose]

http://www.americascupcharters.com/images/about_hero.jpg

My childhood friend, George Hill bought Weatherly and got things set up in Newport for the charter business. America Cup Charters.
George has quite a resume. http://www.americascupcharters.com/crew.html.

I ran into George at the Maine Boatbuilders Show this year and he's hanging tight as Corporate charters are reduced to nil.

[Rum_Pirate]

The following 12 metres are having a new lease of life and career in St. Maarten

12 KC-87 TRUE NORTH

12 KC-1V TRUE NORTH 1V

12 US-55 Stars & Stripes

12 US-56 Stars & Stripes

12 KC-2 CANADA II

The race boats of the St.Maarten 12 Metre Challenge are exclusively boats that were designed and built for the last America’s Cup using 12 Metre Yachts, the 1987 America’s Cup in Fremantle, Australia. In the knowledge that the winds in Fremantle would be far stronger than previous America’s Cups, the 1987 boats were designed and built larger, more powerful and stronger than ever before. These are the last of the legendary “12’s” and represent the zenith of the marque. Maintained in pristine condition, and kept very authentic, the yachts have only been modified to improve guest safety.

http://www.12metre.com/yachts.htm

See a video here

http://www.12metre.com/publicity_page.htm

[Chris.]

Those 12 M charters are great. I was lucky enough to be invited to a Unisys sponsored event in the mid-90s where they had two 12 M, two of the Kookaburras from the 1987 defence IIRC, for us lucky few to crew on in several (very) short match races within the Harbour.
My designated spot was on one of the grinders, located in a pit right off to port, about a foot in from the deck edge and just about next to the genoa car. Only the upper part of abdomen was above the deckline.
And bloody hard work it was too, even though the tacking duels were pretty tame. Was a lot younger then and certainly couldn't do it for more than one tack now.
But, would do it again in a blink - I just wouldn't volunteer to for grinding duties :-)

[pieman]

I see there was a mention of the original Gretel and wonder where she is now. The last I saw of her she was loaded on top of a freighter ship in Australia heading for either Greece or Italy. Up until then she had been working as a charter boat for about 20 years in the Whisunday's. Some may say this was sacrilidge however at least she would go out and play nearly every day and had to be kept to a reasonable seawothy standard. Has any one seen her recently in their wanderings?

[CapnJ2ds]

These are in 08 sometime.

Gretel II? She was up here at Westpark last year

[peter radclyffe]

USA was a strange boat, with two rudders and a "geek," which was a sort of keel with minimal area to hold the ballast. She showed flashes of speed, but was often unmanageable. Don't know if she's quite what you'd want at a classic yacht regatta.

unmanageable geeks with flashes of speed, who are full of themselves are mostly what you find at classic yacht regattas in the medhttp://forum.woodenboat.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[The Bigfella]

I think that's Gretel, not Gretel II

My son went out on one of the old AC boats now doing charter work on Sydney Harbour a week ago... Spirit from '92.... after the 12 metre boats. He enjoyed himself.

[John B]

I think its the same boat Chris posted.(II) It came here 2 or 3 years ago for a new deck , ugraded systems and rebuild, was launched up at Westharbour and sailed back to AU last year.

[pieman]

the photo of "a" Gretel being restored would have to be of Gretel 11 due to the ribs being of wood (qld maple) the ribs of Gretel 1 were metal. Even still great to see an old girl getting a a full restore instead just a lick of paint

[Michael D. Storey]

Wasn't it INTREPID that used to race on Lake Michigan?

I could be wrong on her name, but the boat had a wooden strip hull finished bright.

I used to see her rafted up at the Yacht Club wharf in Michigan City after the first leg of the Tri-State Regatta and the Columbia.

Moby Nick


In 1973, I was on a C & C 39 during the Chicago Mac. Was passed by Northern Light at 2:30 AM.
When I was 7, I learned to sail on Mitena, US 10. After looking for her for 45 years (off an on), I found her last November in Port Huron.
Big Girls, those old 12's. They redefine the word Sex.

[Garret]

In 1973, I was on a C & C 39 during the Chicago Mac. Was passed by Northern Light at 2:30 AM.
When I was 7, I learned to sail on Mitena, US 10. After looking for her for 45 years (off an on), I found her last November in Port Huron.
Big Girls, those old 12's. They redefine the word Sex.

Northern Light was at the last Newport WBS, docked right across from us.

While they are very sexy, they don't stand up to Endeavour... Got passed by her a few years ago. Made Neoga feel tiny!

BTW - Intrepid was on Lake Champlain for a year or 2 as well.

[Rich VanValkenburg]

#10 Mitena is an old wooden 12 and is on the Black River in Port Huron. A couple weeks ago she had a winter cover on. I don't have any recent photos. This is from 3 years ago--

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/falcon5a/12meterMitena10.jpg

[johnw]

didn't she spend some time on the bottom? This is LHF's only 12, if it's the one I'm thinking of.

[Michael D. Storey]

didn't she spend some time on the bottom? This is LHF's only 12, if it's the one I'm thinking of.
I don't know about only, but she was (is) his. She has a career of kissing mud, often sed to not be the fastest dog on the porch. But, at 73 feet with a horse-shoe shaped cockpit, a stick instead of a wheel and a canoe stern, a real work o' art.

[jimkeen]

Here is a place to read about three old 12's and a few other notable classics.
http://www.seascopenewport.com/index.htm

[Chris.]

Like 12 metre yachts, this thread lives on.
Got a newsletter from Robbe & Berking today, with some photos of old 12s. It was to advertise the 2011 12mr World Championships.
So very nice to look at:

Vanity:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4049/4561579367_3377a1d401_o.jpg

Sphinx and Vanity:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3053/4561579735_a9349c7a34_o.jpg

Sphinx:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3528/4562209010_71c57afb4f_o.jpg

[martin schulz]

What happens to all the old 12 metre yachts?

Well...some even make it across the pond ;)

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii188/sionnachan/museumshafen/12er-4.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii188/sionnachan/museumshafen/12er-3.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii188/sionnachan/museumshafen/12er-2.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii188/sionnachan/museumshafen/12er-1.jpg

[Michael D. Storey]

Some of these girls are old friends. It is difficult to look at them when you can't even identify the body.

[martin schulz]

Those depressing leftovers are parts of the INTREPID.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_OHy0UjMB9Y0/SwXqwGWO2qI/AAAAAAAACvQ/5FxmG6ekdK0/s1600/intrepid67.bmp

[Chris.]

No, no, no. Intrepid is still sailing. And even if it was, she never had a keel-hung rudder.

[johnw]

Well...some even make it across the pond ;)

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii188/sionnachan/museumshafen/12er-4.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii188/sionnachan/museumshafen/12er-3.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii188/sionnachan/museumshafen/12er-2.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii188/sionnachan/museumshafen/12er-1.jpg
I think this is that boat:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?t=105668

[Chris.]

Regrettably, you're right. Going to be some restorations isn't it?

[johnw]

Well, if they saved the builder's commissioning plate, they can build a new boat under it...

[martin schulz]

No, no, no. Intrepid is still sailing. And even if it was, she never had a keel-hung rudder.

Sorry, I got mixed up (after all Yachts are not my area of expertise).

It is indeed the JENETTA

[Barb]

It's nice to see a photo of Mitena! I sailed on her for several years in the late 50s and early 60s on Lake Ontario when she was owned by Judge John Van Voorhis. Are there any more recent photos of her?

[Barb]

#10 Mitena is an old wooden 12 and is on the Black River in Port Huron. A couple weeks ago she had a winter cover on. I don't have any recent photos. This is from 3 years ago--

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/falcon5a/12meterMitena10.jpg


In 1973, I was on a C & C 39 during the Chicago Mac. Was passed by Northern Light at 2:30 AM.
When I was 7, I learned to sail on Mitena, US 10. After looking for her for 45 years (off an on), I found her last November in Port Huron.
Big Girls, those old 12's. They redefine the word Sex.

Where did you sail on Mitena? Rochester, NY? I sailed on her for several years in the late 50s and early 60s on Lake Ontario.

[Concordia 33]

It was Easterner that raced for several years on the Great Lakes. She was owned by a newspaper publisher who named it Newsboy I think. I used to watch the twelves race out of Newport for the cup I think Gretel II (in a picture above this post) was the prettiest twelve I've ever seen, though Intrepid and Courageous are a close second.

[RFNK]

Gretel II is a beautiful boat. This is she at the Australian Wooden Boat Festival today:

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_7775.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_7824.jpg

Rick

[Dan McCosh]

Matina sat at the dock in Detroit for years, was sold, kind of cobbled up, then resold and the hull frames replaced. She has been in some state of reconstruction for about 40 years, as far as I know. I think she was sailing maybe three years ago, but don't know what the status is today. Northern Light did sink, then was raised, went out east, and was rebuilt.