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Lew Barrett
05-16-2009, 12:03 PM
New research (read Jake Page's article linked here).

Animal Behaviorists Study done at Harvard (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2009226383_dogs16.html)

OK, "souls" is a bit of a troll, as we haven't agreed amongst us (on these pages) what the nature of the soul is. The study suggests that emotions, morality and other ostensibly "human" behavior is shared by many animals. But the implication is that "if we have souls, animals have souls." The study doesn't attempt to define the nature of the soul, but does draw firm conclusions regarding the actions and motivations of higher mammals and suggests direct parallels between the evolutionary traits governing behavior in animals and man....particularly dogs since they live with humans.

But if you have a dog, you already knew that!

So....do we all meet at the Rainbow Bridge when we die? :D

Peerie Maa
05-16-2009, 12:19 PM
I could certainly see thinking and emotional behaviour in our old dog. From happy anticipation, specifically "when those birds get here I'm going to have fun chasing them", to "OMG how do I get out of this with dignity", when the two swans went whump whump whumping overhead, and she realised how big they were.

paladin
05-16-2009, 12:29 PM
Or seeing how fast a cocker spaniel can really run when chasing geese and the surprised look on her face when they fly off the end of the finger pier and she flies into mid air.....over the water.....oh where is the dignity......but she was still happy as a lark when fished out.....

Captain Blight
05-16-2009, 01:53 PM
All dogs are good dogs. All dogs go to heaven.


And who can say this fella's soulless??
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo39/rufustr/BORIS.jpg

Peerie Maa
05-16-2009, 05:42 PM
All dogs are good dogs. All dogs go to heaven.


And who can say this fella's not patient??
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo39/rufustr/BORIS.jpg
"Hurry up and throw that thing, why don'cha":p

isla
05-16-2009, 07:04 PM
My dog had a soul, but he sold it to the devil so that, during his brief life, he could dominate me. He says 'walkies' we go for a walk, he says 'chow time', I fill his dish, that's the way it is.

keith66
05-16-2009, 07:43 PM
I saw a quote recently where a young kid was asked why Dogs die so young, he explained it thus " they dont have to prove how nice they are". I reckon he has a point after all heaven would be a real drab & boring place without the dogs we have known.

Katherine
05-16-2009, 07:57 PM
I have never lived in a place where animals were not members of the house hold. Even in college I kept goldfish (the only animal allowed in the college housing building). I do not want to live in a place without them.

Lew Barrett
05-16-2009, 10:23 PM
The concept of soul is usually dealt with as a sort of dichotomy here on the forum; does man have a soul or doesn't he comes up with regularity as a discussion here. But what the study suggests is that animals (in this case dogs) exhibit all of the requisite behavior to conclude that they have a certain moral founding, that is know the difference in basic terms between right and wrong, have all of the emotional responses we normally consider solely human,
have memory and a variety of other traits that make them much more than just dumb beasts. Since the study was done on dogs, it really is germane mainly to them, but the author includes the possibilities for many other animals. His conclusion is that if men have soles, so do dogs.

It's worth it to read the article, and probably the study, and it certainly should make for great discussion. But I am perfectly content if this thread does nothing more than draw out all us animal lovers. I agree with you, Kat, Blight, Keith, Isla, Jeff et al.

Who doesn't like dogs has no heart.

Paul Girouard
05-16-2009, 10:36 PM
[quote=Lew Barrett;2199220]l
His conclusion is that if men have soles, so do dogs.

quote]

Well I'm sure if men , or man, has a foot they indeed have a sole , dogs have pads :D

Paul Girouard
05-16-2009, 11:11 PM
I wonder if some Govt. grant was used to pay for that POS article / study? If so it is true a that a 'sucker is born every day', he just happens to be a US tax payer. :rolleyes:

Dogs only know right from wrong due to training, some what like people sure. But to stretch it to dogs have morals is B/S.

That being said most dogs are nicer than most people. But the study / article is bunch of over priced liberal B/S, IMO. YMMV.

Paul Girouard
05-16-2009, 11:23 PM
We agree, I think, that men who can't spell very well have souls.



Ah , let me think ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, No!:rolleyes:

Spelling has nothing to do with the soul , however using the right word may:D

floatingkiwi
05-16-2009, 11:29 PM
If we and dogs have what is called a soul then so does every living thing in the universe.
I have never heard anybody express exactly what His/Her God is. I tell ya, I have sure put myself in a lot of places where folk talk about God and Thank God and what have you, but there seems to me that there is a severe shortage of God descriptions, especially on this big wobbly blue rock, congested with an overpopulated mass of inquiring individuals all breathing the same air as you, my dear reader.
Yes indeed, I believe a soul, or the passtime of possessing one, is the definition of being alive. Every living thing has a soul and all souls everywhere in the universe, (which, by the way, is infinite), combine together to form what I call God.
Picture this. There are two trees growing alongside each other on
a ridge. they are of the same genus and species, share the same age, receive the same amount of water, light and wind,(aah, wind), and apart from being exactly the same shape down to each twig, etc, are identical.
Now, one day one of these trees just dies. One of them. It begins to go brownleafed and dry out, rot sets in and it begins its decay back to the soil whence it came.
What happened to it? Why?
God left it, the way He just does sometime, to all of us.Its soul, for no apparent reason whatsoever, just up and off.Poof. Like a fart in the breeze. Nobody saw it nor will they miss it, that little piece of God, as it soars at infinite speed through timeless immeasureable distances to attach itself to on ova of some lucky girl, perhaps, as it is pierced by one lucky, hard little swimmer, which has been going hard at it for 6 hours straight, since being pleasurably shot from its mysterious beginnings, ahead by a length or two from a second one in a race of somewhere around 33 million competitors.
Aah yes. We all have soul and rock and roll. Look your dog in the eye and tell me you see different.

Paul Girouard
05-16-2009, 11:37 PM
If we and dogs have what is called a soul then so does every living thing in the universe.
I have never heard anybody express exactly what His/Her God is. I tell ya, I have sure put myself in a lot of places where folk talk about God and Thank God and what have you, but there seems to me that there is a severe shortage of God descriptions, especially on this big wobbly blue rock, congested with an overpopulated mass of inquiring individuals all breathing the same air as you, my dear reader.
Yes indeed, I believe a soul, or the passtime of possessing one, is the definition of being alive. Every living thing has a soul and all souls everywhere in the universe, (which, by the way, is infinite), combine together to form what I call God.
Picture this. There are two trees growing alongside each other on
a ridge. they are of the same genus and species, share the same age, receive the same amount of water, light and wind,(aah, wind), and apart from being exactly the same shape down to each twig, etc, are identical.
Now, one day one of these trees just dies. One of them. It begins to go brownleafed and dry out, rot sets in and it begins its decay back to the soil whence it came.
What happened to it? Why?
God left it, the way He just does sometime, to all of us.Its soul, for no apparent reason whatsoever, just up and off.Poof. Like a fart in the breeze. Nobody saw it nor will they miss it, that little piece of God, as it soars at infinite speed through timeless immeasureable distances to attach itself to on ova of some lucky girl, perhaps, as it is pierced by one lucky, hard little swimmer, which has been going hard at it for 6 hours straight, since being pleasurably shot from its mysterious beginnings, ahead by a length or two from a second one in a race of somewhere around 33 million competitors.
Aah yes. We all have soul and rock and roll. Look your dog in the eye and tell me you see different.



Now here's a nutty post! Full of half truths and gobbly gook. Floating indeed! Space cadet , ground control to floatingkiwi don't touch the red knob!!!:eek:

Lew Barrett
05-17-2009, 12:01 AM
Now here's a nutty post! Full of half truths and gobbly gook. Floating indeed! Space cadet , ground control to floatingkiwi don't touch the red knob!!!:eek:

Actually, Pantheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism) is a legitimate recognized philosophy, and I'd reckon very generally speaking, a very logical conclusion. If there is a god, and if we are presumed to be the result of God's creation, then it can be argued that the universe is the tangible expression of God and God's creation(s). I find pantheism at least as easy to accept....and actually intellectually just as comforting, as say Judaism or Christianity. Maybe more so.

Kiwi may have addressed my point most directly so far. I would expect you not to find much to celebrate in this article, Paul.

George Jung
05-17-2009, 12:39 AM
Nice sentiments and all... but isn't it entertaining how easily the concept of 'all dogs go to heaven' is accepted, and by many of the same folk who will argue for a thousand posts that God does not exist, nor does heaven.

Anthropomorphizing? Projection? But not boring.

rufustr
05-17-2009, 12:53 AM
The Photo of Boris posted above, is his mug shot from the animal shelter.

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo39/rufustr/BORIS.jpg

He is a wonderful dog and definitely has a soul.

He is a boating dog, but he won't take any interest in a ball or stick.

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo39/rufustr/BribieIslandClassic2009005.jpg

He is a fishing dog.

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo39/rufustr/BribieIslandClassic2009193.jpg

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo39/rufustr/BribieIslandClassic2009155.jpg

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo39/rufustr/BribieIslandClassic2009169.jpg

He catches one occasionally, but he believes in catch and release.:D

BarnacleGrim
05-17-2009, 04:02 AM
From my existentialist view, dogs most certainly create their own essence, in contrast to inanimate objects, whose essence precedes their existence. We see how dogs develop rich personalities as they grow up, it's not just down to training or breeding, or projection for that matter.

downthecreek
05-17-2009, 07:58 AM
Nice sentiments and all... but isn't it entertaining how easily the concept of 'all dogs go to heaven' is accepted, and by many of the same folk who will argue for a thousand posts that God does not exist, nor does heaven.



Fundamental confusion. Soul as metaphor vs. soul as literal (though indefinable) reality.

(Same with a lot of religious language in everyday speech)

skuthorp
05-17-2009, 08:06 AM
Well, if there is a 'heaven' then dogs would have a better claim to a place than any human. (There may not be room for us agumentative lot, and if there is what about all those harmless cows and sheep we've been slaughtering for eons?)

Chris Coose
05-17-2009, 08:21 AM
Some kid in the 3 rd grade at Star of the Sea school raises his hand and asks the nuns about pets in heaven.
She tells the kid it don't happen, like she knows it to be the truth.

One thing she don't know for sure, that her statement has turned about 1/2 the kids in the class from all the other BS she has tried to brain wash them with.

Chris Coose
05-17-2009, 08:51 AM
What happens in the world when the conservatives in Catholicism take charge of the church and return to medevilism?

They hate Obama for his appreciation for stem cell research. They lead the charge in Maine to stuff homos back into the closet. They shall have dominance over a billion people globally.

I don't care much about their dominance in heaven but I hate to see these SOB's having their way on earth in anybody's life.

The Nation
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090601/carroll?rel=hp_picks


If the Catholic Church is as opposed to abortion as it claims, why has it not embraced the single most effective means of reducing abortion rates, which is birth control? The answer, alas, is evident: the overriding issue for Catholic fundamentalists is not sexual morality, or even "life," but papal authority. As Protestant fundamentalists effectively make an idol of biblical texts, Catholic fundamentalists, in obedience to the Vatican, make an idol of the papacy.

Houndog
05-17-2009, 10:37 AM
I don't know if dogs have souls or not but I do believe they go to heaven when they die.

J P
05-17-2009, 10:56 AM
"... if there are no dogs in heaven, send me where the dogs are."

stevedwyer
05-17-2009, 11:49 AM
"... make me the man the dogs think I am!"

Lew Barrett
05-17-2009, 12:43 PM
Nice sentiments and all... but isn't it entertaining how easily the concept of 'all dogs go to heaven' is accepted, and by many of the same folk who will argue for a thousand posts that God does not exist, nor does heaven.

Anthropomorphizing? Projection? But not boring.

George, to state the unfortunate obvious and turn the thread where it really needn't go, (but we knew it would) the question really isn't if dogs have souls, but if men do. In my opinion, you are responding to the "trolly" and divisive part of the issue rather than the real question of how much are we like the animals rather than different from them.

If you read the article (and more importantly, I would think, the paper) you could argue with the authors methods, which were developed to remove anthropomorphism from the test result. But that was taken into consideration by the study and dealt with methodologically,according to their description.

I am unconvinced myself that men have souls; that's to say that we have a portion that lives beyond our corporeal being and then goes to heaven. I have, on the other hand, every reason to believe that we are genetically, emotionally, and perhaps even "motivationally" more like dogs and certain other animals than we are different from them.
The article doesn't suggest that dogs have souls. In fact upon reflection I might interpret it as asking the sophist's question (rather light heartedly) if men do.

Paul Girouard
05-17-2009, 01:12 PM
Those that claim no God tend to say a prayer, have a moment of silence, say , God speed to those dieing or in distress , yadda yadda yadda. We read that here on a regular basis.

If a tree falls in a forest and no ones around to hear, it does it still make sound??

All this B/S is so , what is the right term , humm, I don't know. I must be to simple as it seems like pure B/S to me.

Nice troll Lew, your the 'soul' owner of the troll of the weekend award. Chris Coose's posts where the highlight of B/S-dom of this thread. Way ta go guys , your alma mater would be proud I'm sure of your higher grasp of things all vague and unprovable.

Next is how to hook a Govt. grant to write such astute pontifications.


Excellent reading for a Sunday AM.

BrianW
05-17-2009, 01:48 PM
Oh our dog has a soul, and a huge heart, but I think she hath no brain.

Lew Barrett
05-17-2009, 03:41 PM
Paul, I'm ok with troll of the month. I didn't post this to avoid controversy.

The question of the true nature of, let's call it "animal intelligence" is not a troll, however. As a Catholic, may we assume you're not buying that animals have much worth beyond their existence to serve man, and that there is a clear line drawn between them and us? Or a clearer one than the article which you poo poo as liberal nonsense is suggesting? We can stick to dogs here, for the sake of discussion. Bring your best science to bear on this and let's argue the points!

ishmael
05-17-2009, 04:07 PM
Interesting question. I don't know the answer.

I know that all the animals I've had the pleasure of knowing well in my adult life, three cats and two dogs, all showed unique spirits. As to the metaphysics, I suppose we won't know about that this side of the grave.

I do think, from personal experience, that human consciousness can separate from the physical body while we're still alive. I'm quite sure of that. I don't see any reason why that couldn't be true of other living beings. Whether it means there is an eternal soul I don't think we can know. Not with scientific precision, anyway.

Paul Girouard
05-17-2009, 05:15 PM
The question of the true nature of, let's call it "animal intelligence" is not a troll, however.

As a Catholic, may we assume you're not buying that animals have much worth beyond their existence to serve man, and that there is a clear line drawn between them and us? Or a clearer one than the article which you poo poo as liberal nonsense is suggesting?

We can stick to dogs here, for the sake of discussion. Bring your best science to bear on this and let's argue the points!



I'm not Catholic.

Dogs do not have morals, many people as well, do not have morals. But to claim dogs are more or equal in thier rate / measurement of morality than people is B/S.

Wild dogs , even domesticated dogs have been known to go 'bad' , and you'll say "And some people have as well." But people raised with some care by parents with a small measure of care have a better chance to become moral , or good than a dog just left to fend for itself.

So in way we are both , man and dogs taught morals and everyone has a different idea of what that is. But a dog left on the fringe will go 'bad' where as a person on the fringe may not, the person should have the capacity to think it thru , the dog not so much. It's thinking is eat, sleep, screw , do it all again. He doesn't store up , grow a garden , have a big gas guzzling boat , yadda, yadda, yadda. The thinking part separates us. Some people are not very good at that part.

I don't need no science to tell me that Lew:D

Lew Barrett
05-17-2009, 05:22 PM
Oh our dog has a soul, and a huge heart, but I think she hath no brain.

I couldn't be the first person to say that the value of a very large brain can be at times highly overestimated, could I? :D

Lew Barrett
05-17-2009, 05:28 PM
So in way we are both , man and dogs taught morals and everyone has a different idea of what that is. But a dog left on the fringe will go 'bad' where as a person on the fringe may not, the person should have the capacity to think it thru , the dog not so much. It's thinking is eat, sleep, screw , do it all again. He doesn't store up , grow a garden , have a big gas guzzling boat , yadda, yadda, yadda. The thinking part separates us. Some people are not very good at that part.

I don't need no science to tell me that Lew:D

Well, two things.

1. If we are to speak from experience, or what we think, then here's one to ponder: Is man's nature inherently good, inherently evil, or a tabula rosa? Bear in mind that I find little more morally relativistic or anthropomorphically biased than the Abrahamic faiths, Christianity included.

2. I'd sooner not make too much of such a fundamentally relativistic
feature as "morality" (despite my acknowledged prior use of the word) and pattern the discussion on just what separates us from say, a dog in respect to our feelings, emotions and....potentials for good or evil.

As to if "dogs" go bad, then if they do, we can also ascribe the relative value of "good" to them. If we do and dogs are capable of basic good, it furthers the argument that they are more like us than different. Morality is admittedly a slippery slope and I'm not quite sure what to make of the author's conclusions there myself. For discussion.

Lew Barrett
05-17-2009, 05:49 PM
Those that claim no God tend to say a prayer, have a moment of silence, say , God speed to those dieing or in distress , yadda yadda yadda. We read that here on a regular basis.



We see this mentioned all the time here, and your questioning comment just as frequently. It's done in time of need and distress to comfort the bereaved and in recognition of the other person's beliefs. Perhaps it is a bit disingenuous, but it is donated as an act of kindness, not philosophy. At least, I can say this on my own behalf for the rare occasions I invoke the deity. Simply put, it's seen as a polite thing to do.

BETTY-B
05-17-2009, 06:01 PM
So good intentions are good morals. And Dogs have good intentions. And since there is no hell, all those good intention paving stones are paving the way to everyone feeling better. Good dog!

Chris Coose
05-17-2009, 06:07 PM
I'll bet Paul got bit by a liberal dog.

Lew Barrett
05-17-2009, 06:33 PM
If not a rabid one! :D

I had hoped to get us going in a thread that discusses the relative morality of the way we view animals and their role in our world while we dominate and use them to our purposes. How we can throw a pit bull from a speeding car because it isn't aggressive enough, or sanction puppy mills to create pets? Perhaps even to provoke a discussion on factory farming for meat? You know...when good people go bad?

Glen Longino
05-17-2009, 06:55 PM
This thread has already gone beyond what I thought it would, and probably beyond what Lew thought it would.
Let me make a small attempt to quiet it down.
In the first place, dogs Don't have souls and they Don't go to Heaven.
In the second place, people Don't have souls and Don't go to Heaven.
There now, everybody feel better?:D:D

BarnacleGrim
05-17-2009, 06:58 PM
It always end up getting silly when we mix science, theology and philosophy.

Lew Barrett
05-17-2009, 07:25 PM
What better to do on such a glorious Sunday as we have here in Seattle....finally! "God, I love my Dog!"

Actually, Glen I was hoping for an epic, replete with a Sam F arrival! :D

The article? Not written by a traditional theist, that's a sure bet!

Glen Longino
05-17-2009, 07:36 PM
A beautiful day here too, Lew!
Yes! We all love our dogs and Thank God they love us even more.
It seems that Sam F is not concerned with the lives of animals so long as we don't try to marry them, especially horses. Go figger!:D

Paul Girouard
05-17-2009, 07:45 PM
In the first place, dogs Don't have souls and they Don't go to Heaven.
In the second place, people Don't have souls and Don't go to Heaven.
There now, everybody feel better?:D:D



I can go with that better than the articles pile of B/S.

And now you've brought up 'feelings', another pet peeve of mine.

Lew I bet I personally haven't brought up the prayer thing more than 3 or 4 times. I won't ask you for proof cause IMO thats sort of silly , it's done all the time by folks but IMO it's a waste of time. We all sort of know who's gonna bite on what. You did surprise me when you didn't go snake $hit on the sole / soul thing like the last time I did a little joke / question / pointed out a small slip you made in spelling or word use.:D

And yes I did see your post before you edited it back about a month ago. Very un-Lew like , maybe the real Lew:confused: who knows? We're all a bunch of B/ $hitters of the highest order , at least the regulars. We all have our axe / thing / position. No matter how wrong most of you are daily it makes it fun to see who's gonna go bug $hit over what:D

People in general are arseholes , few are "good" , they'll stab you in the back and think little or nothing about doing so.

Dogs not so much.

Glen Longino
05-17-2009, 07:50 PM
I can go with that better than the articles pile of B/S.

And now you've brought up 'feelings', another pet peeve of mine.

Lew I bet I personally haven't brought up the prayer thing more than 3 or 4 times. I won't ask you for proof cause IMO thats sort of silly , it's done all the time by folks but IMO it's a waste of time. We all sort of know who's gonna bite on what. You did surprise me when you didn't go snake $hit on the sole / soul thing like the last time I did a little joke / question / pointed out a small slip you made in spelling or word use.:D

And yes I did see your post before you edited it back about a month ago. Very un-Lew like , maybe the real Lew:confused: who knows? We're all a bunch of B/ $hitters of the highest order , at least the regulars. We all have our axe / thing / position. No matter how wrong most of you are daily it makes it fun to see who's gonna go bug $hit over what:D

People in general are arseholes , few are "good" , they'll stab you in the back and think little or nothing about doing so.

Dogs not so much.

Anybody ever call you cynical or say you have a $$hitty outlook, Paul? Yes? I figgered!:rolleyes::)

Paul Girouard
05-17-2009, 08:14 PM
Anybody ever call you cynical or say you have a $$hitty outlook, Paul? Yes? I figgered!:rolleyes::)



Life has proven me right more than wrong. YMMV. Maybe your blessed eh Glenn-O:)

Glen Longino
05-17-2009, 08:40 PM
Life has proven me right more than wrong. YMMV. Maybe your blessed eh Glenn-O:)

We make our own blessings eh Paul-O?
A little luck never hurts either. YMMV:)

Lew Barrett
05-17-2009, 09:20 PM
There is no one Lew, Paul. And without a doubt, not one way I see things through time. I decided not to leave a negative and spiteful response to a taunt, and I think it meets "the rules" of "no gottchas" that it wasn't quoted before I altered it. I came to my position on my own. But you can enjoy gottchas if you prefer, even ones that you can't point to.
A reasonably open minded fellow might wish to think that my post as it stands is my considered position.

Rigadog
05-17-2009, 09:54 PM
I care not much for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it. ~Abraham Lincoln

The dog is the only animal that has seen his god. ~Author Unknown

Man is a dog's idea of what God should be. ~Holbrook Jackson

I think dogs are the most amazing creatures; they give unconditional love. For me they are the role model for being alive. ~Gilda Radner

A dog is not "almost human" and I know of no greater insult to the canine race than to describe it as such. ~John Holmes

The more I see of man, the more I like dogs. ~Mme. de StaŽl

The dog is a gentleman; I hope to go to his heaven, not man's. ~Mark Twain, letter to W.D. Howells, 2 April 1899

In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semi human. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog. ~Edward Hoagland

In the world which we know, among the different and primitive geniuses that preside over the evolution of the several species, there exists not one, excepting that of the dog, that ever gave a thought to the presence of man. ~Maurice Maeterlinck

Heaven is by favor; if it were by merit your dog would go in and you would stay out. Of all the creatures ever made [man] is the most detestable. Of the entire brood, he is the only one... that possesses malice. He is the only creature that inflicts pain for sport, knowing it to be pain. ~Mark Twain

The animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours, they move finished and complete, gifted with extension of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren; they are not underlings; they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendor and travail of the earth. ~Henry Beston, The Outermost House, 1928

Life is life - whether in a cat, or dog or man. There is no difference there between a cat or a man. The idea of difference is a human conception for man's own advantage. ~Sri Aurobindo

No philosophers so thoroughly comprehend us as dogs and horses. ~Herman Melville, Redburn. His First Voyage, 1849

"A house without either a cat or a dog is the house of a scoundrel." - Portuguese Proverb

Near this spot are deposited the remains of one who possessed Beauty without Vanity, Strength without Insolence, Courage without Ferocity, and all the Virtues of Man, without his Vices. This Praise, which would be unmeaning Flattery if inscribed over human ashes, is but a just tribute to the Memory of Boatswain, a Dog. ~George Gordon, Lord Byron, "Inscription on the Monument of a Newfoundland Dog"

You think dogs will not be in heaven? I tell you, they will be there long before any of us. ~Robert Louis Stevenson

Rigadog
05-17-2009, 09:56 PM
EULOGY ON THE DOG

by George Graham Vest

The one absolutely unselfish friend that man can have in this selfish world, the one that never deserts him, the one that never proves ungrateful or treacherous, is his dog. A man's dog stands by him in prosperity and in poverty, in health and in sickness. He will sleep on the cold ground, where the wintry winds blow and snow drives fiercely, if only he may be near his master's side. He will kiss the hand that has no food to offer, he will lick the wounds and sores that come in encounter with the roughness of the world. He guards the sleep of his pauper master as if he were a prince. When all other friends desert he remains. When riches take wings and reputation falls to pieces he is as constant in his love as the sun in its journey through the heavens.
If fortune drives the master forth an outcast in the world, friendless and homeless, the faithful dog asks no higher privilege than that of accompanying him to guard against danger, to fight against his enemies; and when the last scene of all comes, and death takes the master in its embrace and his body is laid away in the cold ground, no matter if all other friends pursue their way, there, by his graveside, will the noble dog be found, his head between his paws, his eyes sad but open in alert watchfulness, faithful and true even to death.

stevedwyer
05-17-2009, 10:04 PM
What is this Heaven all about anyway, if not a resting place until we resume our journey?

Paul Girouard
05-17-2009, 11:54 PM
There is no one Lew, Paul. And without a doubt, not one way I see things through time. I decided not to leave a negative and spiteful response to a taunt, and I think it meets "the rules" of "no gottchas" that it wasn't quoted before I altered it. I came to my position on my own. But you can enjoy gottchas if you prefer, even ones that you can't point to.


A reasonably open minded fellow might wish to think that my post as it stands is my considered position.



Oh Touche Lew , either I'm opened minded and I guess inclusive , or I'm a closed minded A-hole. Either way I'm screwed , nice twist of that knife Lew, well done:D

So it was taunt , not just a funny turn of a phrase, which is pretty common here on WBF, happens about every day. But IF you perceived it as a taunt , I guess you think most people are A-holes as well.

Now for my Non-sequitur moment , love that term BTW can't spell it but I do like it.

After my last post on this thread I went out back to fill some more garbage sacks with compost for a friend of ours, she came by earlier today so I was out by my compost bin about 3 hours before. Durning that time between some folks where out in the ball field playing softball that boards my back yard. They are from a local Christian church which ties into the whole non-sequitur think , anyway they had some smaller kids that where not playing softball , and those little darlings found some dirt clods by my back fence and proceeded to throw a bunch of rocks and dirt clots at my fence and of course over the fence into my back yard. I guess those parents work on the out of sight out of mind school of parenting. No I didn't say any thing to them , mainly as they where leaving the field as I was going into my back yard , they where gone before I found thier little gift for me.

And really it was no big deal , but what IF they had really damaged some thing, oh well not thier problem now is it. They more than likely have dogs , and if they can't be bothered to control thier kids how do you thing they do with the dog:rolleyes:

This lead to the friend telling me about her neighbor who drive spikes / nails into wood blocks and lines the blocks up facing her side of the joint fence so her dog would be pricked / cut or what ever IF it attempted to dig or paw at the property line and maybe try to get at the neighbors little dog.

Another wonderful testimony of the "goodness" of people. No.

And one last one about 10 maybe 15 years ago along my back fence when the field was used for youth / little kids 10 and under maybe , soccer. Some little darling was wacking the fence ( a 6' tall wood fence) with a stick , driving my 110 lbs Chessy nuts , she was frothing at the mouth , running wild barking raising hell , lunging at the fence etc. So what do you think the 20 or 30 adults sitting less than 15 feet away where doing ? Did they say " hey sonny maybe thats not such a good idea" no the bunch of dumb arsed ( more than likely 50% or greater college grads ) just sat and more then likely bitched quietly to each other about the "nut case dog".

That time I wasn't so nice I jumped up on the fence and ripped that little darling a new arse hole , scared the $hit out of the little prick I'm sure. I proceeded to yell at all the F*&^%in morons sitting on their arses about some personnel responsibility.

I'm sure they all grew up to be model citizen and all are wonderful people at heart.



ACB growin one that sounds to be a chip off the old block , right now the 7 1/2 YO seems funny when he back talks ole ACB , in 15 years he'll be yet another model citizen of the world , or some one will kick his arse before then. Who knows , who cares , not many parents do , they'd rather the school raise their kids , they are to busy to do it themselves, or to lazy , take your pick.

So sure dogs are a lot like people it all depends what morals / rules they are taught. But they don't think about morals like people do , or should .

See ya around campus;)

George Jung
05-18-2009, 12:13 AM
Rare form, Paul! That was pretty good.

I'd agree with your last sentiment - dogs will 'behave' based on what's expected of them, and from that perspective, how the animal acts tells a lot about the folks responsible for their behavior. I've gotten a bit 'peeved' at some neighborhood dogs - but always recognize who I should be thanking for that 'gift' left in the yard.

That about wraps it up, eh? Everyone agrees! (And yes, that was pretty good, Lew! Nice 'considered position')

Paul Girouard
05-18-2009, 12:24 AM
Rare form, Paul! That was pretty good.




Rare indeed, I should save your post George !:D

Lew Barrett
05-18-2009, 12:56 AM
I'm OK, Paul. Sometime it can be hard to tell which part of the stick you are poking with; the blunt or the sharp end. I know, in a pinch, if either of us needed anything the other guy could do for him, he'd be there. That's about as good as it gets, though better spelling makes for easier reading. :D :D Only workin' you, old friend!

Howdy George!

Paul Girouard
05-18-2009, 01:23 AM
Hey my spellings not that bad, compared to some here. And it's not that bad in general , now that being said I do make a lot of mistakes with grammer, (although I'm not really aware of those as my grammer sucks) . My punctuation's also suck , and what really pisses me off most is when I use wrong words spelled right but either used wrong , as in contextually , or just plain the wrong word!!!

I do suck at getting my point across in a written format , but I do try maybe not hard enough , maybe to hard for what these words are worth :o

But then some folks here talk about the egregious misuse of the almighty apostrophe , that'd be you James McMullen:D At least in person, it was lbj who brought it up here on the forum. I mean who ( edited to add I really meant how not who ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGG!!!! ) friggin important is a apostrophe?? :rolleyes: Get a life eh.

What ever ya need Lew , I'd try to help out if it was within my means and / or abilities.

Group hug anyone :D All dogs are good dogs ,,,,,,,,,,, except the bad ones.

BTW the other misspells Friggin and that'd are for effect / inflection.

floatingkiwi
05-18-2009, 01:58 AM
(All this B/S is so , what is the right term , humm, I don't know. I must be to simple as it seems like pure B/S to me.
Nice troll Lew, your the 'soul' owner of the troll of the weekend award. Chris Coose's posts where the highlight of B/S-dom of this thread. Way ta go guys , your alma mater would be proud I'm sure of your higher grasp of things all vague and unprovable.)
End of a quote from a ways back by a gentleman by the name, Paul.

I thought that surely, after the warming response you offered after reading my contribution to souls and their relationship to all, I would have gained some recognition as bull****ter of the thread.
And a thought or two.
Without a being with reason, such as ourelves, existing as we do, with the capacity to learn exponentially, answers to the riddles of time, space and life itself;without us intelligent forms, walking around, breathing, laughing, slingin off at each other, loving, hating,
sharing, helping and learning and on and on;without those of us who are capable of destroying or preserving the very Earth we walk on along with all of its helpless and magnificent creatures;without you and I to witness the stars existing all around us, to listen to surf crashing or seeing the phosphoresence illuminating the waters beneath you as a thousand startled fish, agitate it.To marvel at mountains that support the sky, and climb them.without us, just to be. To be as beings, human beings, in this crazy, unanswered point in time and whereabouts in relationship to whatever.Without us nothing would exist.Without us to behold the very heavens, they surely would not be. Without us saying,"why"?,why would they?For what purpose would anything be, if there was nothing to understand and behold and enjoy it. To breathe it. To live.To love.To write about it. To die.Hopefully do, or create something awesome before we do. Like build a wooden boat. Or deliver another one of us. Save a kid from goin to jail.Help someone crossing the road who needs it.
Or just to take the damn dog for a walk.
Later.

Paul Girouard
05-18-2009, 02:09 AM
[quote=floatingkiwi;2200154


I thought that surely, after the warming response you offered after reading my contribution to souls and their relationship to all, I would have gained some recognition as bull****ter of the thread.

quote]

OK, I'll MTL regret this tomorrow but I'm feeling magnanimous,,,,,,,,,,, so I bestow upon said floatingkiwi the title of "The Bull$hitter of the weekend troll thread"!

Now I shall take my Abby dog out to do her nightly duty and retire to my sleeping chambers!

End of transmission , nighty nite all you formite's!