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View Full Version : five Americans are dead after a U.S. soldier opened fire at a U.S. base in Baghdad.



Shang
05-11-2009, 10:08 PM
WASHINGTON (AP) Pentagon officials say five Americans are dead after a U.S. soldier opened fire at a U.S. base in Baghdad. They say the attacker is in custody.

The officials say the shootings happened on Camp Liberty at a stress clinic, where troops can go for help with the stresses of combat or stress from personal issues.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gdE_56XyHbB6NPQQ_Mt-KKGgg5EgD9844GO81

WX
05-11-2009, 10:10 PM
Maybe if they are in a stress clinic the first they should do from now on is...disarm them.

Pernicious Atavist
05-11-2009, 10:11 PM
They do. Somehow he got in armed. Reckon MPs will be posted there now. Shame.

Tom Montgomery
05-11-2009, 10:15 PM
Damn, damn, damn. A tragedy all around.

WX
05-11-2009, 10:24 PM
As far as i know all Australian army personal in war zones are there as volunteers. Is that the same with US personal?

Shang
05-11-2009, 10:27 PM
"Camp Liberty...stress clinic

"Camp Liberty," ...Kind of an ugly joke, isn't it...

Iraq: Oil and Economy
Sands of Iraq hold world's 2nd largest oil reserve
In a Feb. 26 address, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld called suggestions that the US is really after Iraq's oil "utter nonsense."

"We don't take our forces and go around the world and try to take other people's real estate or other people's resources, their oil. That's just not what the United States does," he said. "We never have, and we never will. That's not how democracies behave."

Nonsense aside, the sands of Iraq hold oil... lots of it. According to the US Energy Information Administration (EIA), "Iraq holds more than 112 billion barrels of oil - the world's second largest proven reserves. Iraq also contains 110 trillion cubic feet of natural gas, and is a focal point for regional and international security issues."
http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aairaqioil.htm

Phillip Allen
05-11-2009, 10:28 PM
As far as i know all Australian army personal in war zones are there as volunteers. Is that the same with US personal?


if you're speaking of conscripts, we are all volunteer...the problem lies with what came back right after the war started and some mom yelled that her son only joined up to get a free education and not to go to war...

Paul Girouard
05-11-2009, 10:41 PM
As far as i know all Australian army personal in war zones are there as volunteers. Is that the same with US personal?



Yes, the US military is a all volunteer military. No one is drafted or forced to join.

BrianW
05-11-2009, 10:44 PM
Thanks Shang, for turning a tragedy into a political opportunity. Never miss a chance to piss on our dead soldiers graves.

Chris Coose
05-11-2009, 10:47 PM
if you're speaking of conscripts, we are all volunteer....
Except the mercenaries.

Tom Montgomery
05-11-2009, 10:52 PM
Yes our soldiers are volunteers. I think the problem lies in "stop-loss" and endless combat deployments... over and over and over and over.

LeeG
05-11-2009, 11:00 PM
Maybe if they are in a stress clinic the first they should do from now on is...disarm them.

military therapist said that dismarming soldiers seeking help is counterproductive.

WX
05-11-2009, 11:10 PM
let me re phrase the question. i realise you don't have conscription, once you are in the army and a hate session kicks off somewhere. Does the army ask for volunteers to form a unit to go fight or is your unit simply sent?

Paul Girouard
05-11-2009, 11:22 PM
let me re phrase the question. i realise you don't have conscription, once you are in the army and a hate session kicks off somewhere.


Does the army ask for volunteers to form a unit to go fight or is your unit simply sent?



Generally, at least in the USN ,your assigned to a unit / ship / squardon and you go where they unit goes. There are many variables to this but in general thats how it works.

SEAL's , Ranger's, Force Recon type spec. ops units would be the same , IF your in those type units you'd go where the unit went.

So in general the soldiers in Iraq are assigned and sent as units. You can't opt out if you think you'd not like the sand box.

WX
05-11-2009, 11:24 PM
Thanks Paul that is what I thought. So for ground forces what is the length of a tour/deployment?

Paul Girouard
05-11-2009, 11:33 PM
Thanks Paul that is what I thought.

So for ground forces what is the length of a tour/deployment?



Around 18 months in country , give or take , lately it's been more give on the troopers part. They do get some leave / time back at home about mid tour , of about 20 days.

My neighbors son's a E-7 US Army , stationed in Germany that's about what his tours have been. They try to give them 2 years plus between the units tours. Of course induvidual soldiers transfer in and out of units all the time due to EAOS , and the stop loss thing the Army had going on did &^%$over some soldiers generally career designated E-5 and above in what the army deemed critical jobs.

WX
05-11-2009, 11:46 PM
18 months is a long time in a battle zone with no clear frontline. I think for Vietnam it was 12 months which was a similar combat situation to Iraq though far and away more intense. 18 months is a long time to stay wired.

ishmael
05-12-2009, 01:32 AM
Sorry to hear this. As WX said, these folks are under a lot stress and don't have a clear line. At some point a few people break. Tragic.

Cuyahoga Chuck
05-12-2009, 01:48 AM
let me re phrase the question. i realise you don't have conscription, once you are in the army and a hate session kicks off somewhere. Does the army ask for volunteers to form a unit to go fight or is your unit simply sent?

The basic units of any fighting force have to be trained and deployed together in order to have "unit solidarity". Scratch units where nobody knows anybody are not inclined to be successful.
It works the same way in your army.

Phillip Allen
05-12-2009, 04:48 AM
Except the mercenaries.
are you saying that mercenaries are constripts? or that volunteers are mercenaries?

Chris Coose
05-12-2009, 05:51 AM
They are exceptions.

cybulski
05-12-2009, 06:06 AM
We were sent on missions that our CO volunteered us for, we were told it was mandatory. Not that that really makes any difference, depends on what you call volunteer.

cybulski
05-12-2009, 06:11 AM
Not to mention the fact that alot of people joined right after 9/11, alot of the new recruits bought into all the lies from the bush admin, so they, we, were coerced under false pretenses, is that volunteer?

BrianW
05-12-2009, 06:27 AM
We were sent on missions that our CO volunteered us for, we were told it was mandatory. Not that that really makes any difference, depends on what you call volunteer.

Yes, it's still volunteering. But I can understand your objection to being OER fodder.

cybulski
05-12-2009, 06:36 AM
Its no wonder we have confused soldiers, when they have no clear view of the objective, and feel used and lied to. Ive been out for over a year and it still confuses me.

BrianW
05-12-2009, 06:39 AM
Thank you for your service.

I wonder though, if your experience is a new phenomenon, or a continuation of the status quo since men first gathered for combat.

cybulski
05-12-2009, 06:53 AM
I dont think you can compare wars of convenience, and primitiveness, to wars of necessity, or self defence.

cybulski
05-12-2009, 07:09 AM
[quote=BrianW;2193823]Thank you for your service.

Oh and your welcome. Even though its not somthing i am particularly proud of, I understand that it does mean alot to others.

WX
05-12-2009, 07:37 AM
War is war, The way I see it there are only two things that count and they are quality of training and time on the line.

LeeG
05-12-2009, 07:39 AM
what is OER?

BrianW
05-12-2009, 07:43 AM
what is OER?

It's a military term. Not found in oil prospect reports. Don't worry.

LeeG
05-12-2009, 07:53 AM
It's a military term. Not found in oil prospect reports. Don't worry.

I won't,,what's the proper military term for smart ass?

WX
05-12-2009, 07:55 AM
You're a scary boy Brian:D

WX
05-12-2009, 07:56 AM
what's the proper military term for smart ass? http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2193871)

Officer? :D

Osborne Russell
05-12-2009, 08:52 AM
Thanks Shang, for turning a tragedy into a political opportunity. Never miss a chance to piss on our dead soldiers graves.

They were put in their graves by the Chimp squad seeking political opportunity.

Phillip Allen
05-12-2009, 09:04 AM
They were put in their graves by the Chimp squad seeking political opportunity.

looks like we've changed chimps

Osborne Russell
05-12-2009, 09:13 AM
looks like we've changed chimps

Aw shucks, they're all the same.

skuthorp
05-12-2009, 09:17 AM
It's a mess, did you expect Obama to do a 'Nam and do a panic pull out by helio? It's not his mess, it's yours, the country's. Repairing the US's reputation and credbility on the area will take time, and more livesI'm afraid.

Phillip Allen
05-12-2009, 09:36 AM
It's a mess, did you expect Obama to do a 'Nam and do a panic pull out by helio? It's not his mess, it's yours, the country's. Repairing the US's reputation and credbility on the area will take time, and more livesI'm afraid.

you're wrong...he campaigned on the promise to clean it up...I'm not worried yet, I expect it to take more time and early complaints are just political opportunism...BUT it is his problem because he asked for the job and was hired...therefore it IS his problem

Shang
05-12-2009, 09:41 AM
Thanks Shang, for turning a tragedy into a political opportunity. Never miss a chance to piss on our dead soldiers graves.

You missed the point, Brian.
In no way do I criticize our soldiers.
And I mourn our dead.
I criticize the greedy, stupid leaders who sent our men to die for profit.

JimD
05-12-2009, 09:49 AM
Maybe if they are in a stress clinic the first they should do from now on is...disarm them.

Saw on a tv news show that disarming is standard procedure, except that its done on the honour system. Soldiers are asked to disarm but noboby actually insures that they do. Haven't some of these volunteer soldiers been rotated in 3, even 4 times? OER - Officer Evaluation Report.

Osborne Russell
05-12-2009, 09:57 AM
therefore it IS his problem

Yes it's exactly the same as if he started it all himself because he was ignorant bigot redneck American exceptionalist.

Phillip Allen
05-12-2009, 09:59 AM
Yes it's exactly the same as if he started it all himself because he was ignorant bigot redneck American exceptionalist.

well, I surely hope he can fix it...

BrianW
05-12-2009, 03:29 PM
you're wrong...he campaigned on the promise to clean it up...

The democrats campaigned on that promise in 2006, and did squat. They were willing to let it continue in order to win the 2008 presidential race.

They thought it was so wrong, but let troops continue to die for political gain.

Taylor Tarvin
05-12-2009, 03:48 PM
posted by cybulski

Oh and your welcome. Even though its not somthing i am particularly proud of, I understand that it does mean alot to others.


I can understand how you feel. When I look back on the 24 years I served some I'm proud of, most I'm indifferent to. Vietnam was certainly not the high point of my life like it is for some I know. Even though it isn't a high point it isn't something I'm ashamed of like others I know are. Even if you are never proud of the time you spent in the service you have nothing to be ashamed of in the future. Good luck sorting it all out, those close to you that haven't been through what you have will try thier best to help . Keep in mind they have your best interest at heart. If you don't already know what I mean by that , you will. If you need to talk call me, anytime.

Taylor

LeeG
05-12-2009, 03:50 PM
Brian, between one party that said an openended occupation where Iraqi could be a mini-US with halal McDonalds and another that said there are realistic limits to what we could accomplish America chose the folks who were leaning towards reality and not fantasy and deceit.

A fundamental thing Cheney and the chickenhawks were counting on as how irrevocable the war would be,,once in we bought it like Powell said. Remember when Nixon was elected he also said he was going to wind down the Vietnam war? It only took a few years. Obama just got elected, it's going to take a few years.

BrianW
05-12-2009, 04:03 PM
Brian, between one party that said an openended occupation where Iraqi could be a mini-US with halal McDonalds...

Must be the Democratic Party, because this is what the Bush was doing before he left office...


"
Iraqi parliament backs US pullout

The Iraqi parliament has voted to accept a deal on the future presence of US troops in the country.

The decision, praised by US President George Bush, means US troops will leave Iraqi streets by mid-2009 and will quit Iraq entirely by the end of 2011.

The agreement is the result of a year of negotiations with the US, with the Iraqis requesting several changes.

Some groups fiercely opposed the pact in parliament and at mass rallies, demanding that US troops leave earlier.

Iraq's Presidential Council must still ratify the deal but its approval is expected.

Iraq's government has hailed the parliamentary session as the prelude to the return of full sovereignty to the country. "

Just another example of Obama following Bush's policies.

Change you can believe in. :D

Shang
05-12-2009, 04:03 PM
The democrats campaigned on that promise in 2006, and did squat. They were willing to let it continue in order to win the 2008 presidential race.

They thought it was so wrong, but let troops continue to die for political gain.

No, it is not clear that the Democrats permitted the war to continued in order to gain election two years after gaining a majority.
The only avenue for the Democrats to have ended the war would have been vote to cut off funding. Since they only had a three or four vote majority in either house it isn't likely that they could have actually pulled that off, but in any case that could have lead to a helicopters-off-the-roof retreat which no one wanted.

But you are ignoring the fact that Bush, a Republican President, whose family and friends are in the oil business, started the war and sustained it.

Phillip Allen
05-12-2009, 04:05 PM
Brian, between one party that said an openended occupation where Iraqi could be a mini-US with halal McDonalds and another that said there are realistic limits to what we could accomplish America chose the folks who were leaning towards reality and not fantasy and deceit.

A fundamental thing Cheney and the chickenhawks were counting on as how irrevocable the war would be,,once in we bought it like Powell said. Remember when Nixon was elected he also said he was going to wind down the Vietnam war? It only took a few years. Obama just got elected, it's going to take a few years.

I'm aware of that Lee...I am giving Obama time...I am still upset that the hate for Nixon ignores that particular promise

BrianW
05-12-2009, 04:11 PM
The only avenue for the Democrats to have ended the war would have been vote to cut off funding.

Did they do it? Nope, they didn't have the guts to make a stand.


But you are ignoring the fact that Bush, a Republican President, whose family and friends are in the oil business, started the war and sustained it.

I don't forget oil subjects very often. Oil pays my taxes and feeds my family.

But... how about those oil prices? Huge success since the war started. Iraqi oil is pouring into our country by the tanker load. They're giving the stuff away to anyone who shows up with a empty barrel.

LeeG
05-12-2009, 04:56 PM
But... how about those oil prices? Huge success since the war started. Iraqi oil is pouring into our country by the tanker load. They're giving the stuff away to anyone who shows up with a empty barrel.


nothing like a recession to reduce demand,build surplus and reduce prices. That situation will turn around soon enough.

the motivation to remove Saddam, besides his WMD that he was going to give to Osama and the terrists, was that Saddam and his crazy sons were sitting on the largest non-Saudi reserves in the world just as the curves of production and demand crossed driving up prices. Busting up Iraq so that it rebuilt according to the world oil market needs and their post invasion reconstruction needs would remove a very dangerous bottleneck for world supply of oil. There's no way around it, trillions of dollars will be flowing from the world into the middle east producers and this was one worthwhile goal..that Cheney and his sock puppet couldn't acknowledge.
They said we had to be bringing democracy like in WWII, with no plan or resources, unlike WWII.

ishmael
05-12-2009, 05:08 PM
I'm really sick of Lee. He slings stuff out of an agenda I don't understand much anymore.

Angry, partisan, just stuff I won't eat anymore. No balance.

If I disappear please know I wish all of you well.

Ya know, after all these years of wrangling, I have no idea where Lee lives. A phony.

Tom Montgomery
05-12-2009, 05:11 PM
...how about those oil prices? Huge success since the war started. Iraqi oil is pouring into our country by the tanker load. They're giving the stuff away to anyone who shows up with a empty barrel.

Boy oh boy am I impressed! Today saw the price of gasoline take its second huge jump (20 cents) in a week. Eight days ago the average price of gasoline in Louisville was approximately $2/gallon. Today the average price is $2.49/gallon. :rolleyes:

BrianW
05-12-2009, 06:09 PM
Boy oh boy am I impressed! Today saw the price of gasoline take its second huge jump (20 cents) in a week. Eight days ago the average price of gasoline in Louisville was approximately $2/gallon. Today the average price is $2.49/gallon. :rolleyes:

That's all part of the plan Bush and his oil cronies put together. :)

Tom Montgomery
05-12-2009, 06:14 PM
The oil companies are telling us the increase is due to the cost of reformulated gasoline. The State Attorney General says that cost should increase the price by approximately 13 cents/gallon. I wonder what accounts for the remaining 36 cents/gallon increase?

WX
05-12-2009, 06:57 PM
Ish I am assuming Lee is actually being a bit tongue on cheek there.