alternatives for white oak floor timbers

[captain champlain]

Hello,I am replacing white oak floor timbers and i want to know if there is as good a replacement.White oak that is avalible to me locally is green.I have considered laminating dried quarter sawn white oak but concerned about the bond.tell me what you think!

[pcford]

White oak is notoriously hard to glue. There are some specialty epoxies that are supposed to be good with white oak.

You could glue your floors with resorcinal...Alaska yellow cedar might be appropriate...you would have to resize up a bit. Wonderful wood to work. But probably not readily available in your neighborhood.

[SMARTINSEN]

Locust, perhaps, native to New England, and which may be available in your neck of the woods.

[captain champlain]

Thankyou for reply! Is alaska yellow cedar structurally as strong as white oa?My floors are 13/4"and 21/2" how much more would i have to resize?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Iroko?

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

...White oak that is avalible to me locally is green.....

Hereabouts the folks who work BIG pieces of oak - Medieval barn framers and the like - take their oak green 'cos it works more easily.

Don't know if this applies to boat timbers.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Hereabouts the folks who work BIG pieces of oak - Medieval barn framers and the like - take their oak green 'cos it works more easily.

Don't know if this applies to boat timbers.

Remind me not to buy a used medieval barn from you!

ROT is the reason for not using green oak!

We build them properly in East Anglia:

http://www.cressingtemple.org.uk/Barley/BBarn.jpg

480 oak trees felled between 1205 and 1235 and all seasoned before they were used..;)

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

http://www.greenoakstructures.co.uk/

Way back in the dim and distant past, the brother ran into this sort of stuff working with a guy called Tim Stead - a fascinating character who made all manner of strange things in sometimes surprising timbers.

An example can be found in Chambers St. (http://www.craftscotland.org/collaboration_millenniumclocktower.html) - worth a visit.

[AndreasJordahlRhude]

Alaska yellow cedar and white oak are very different structurally. That's why "pcford" said if using Alaska yellow cedar you have to re-size up.

Andreas

[Thad Van Gilder]

1) Black Locust
2) recycled longleaf yellow pine
3) recycled chestnut
4) osage orange (don't know if you can get that up there)
5) iroka
6) angelique
7) purpleheart
8) greenheart (ipe')
9) Hondoran mohagany
10) Cuban mohagany from southern florida
11) Sapele
12) live oak from down south
13) sassafras

is this a good start? you should be able to get most of these near you.

-Thad

[Mrleft8]

I'd use White Oak. If you're worried about Green White Oak rotting (I wouldn't be, considering that you'll be using heart wood, not sap ...) Then get KD White Oak of the appropriate dimensions so you don't need to glue. And don't tell me it's not available, it is. It may not be available from your local lumber yard, but I have bought large 12/4 White Oak in Central Vermont (Trying to remember the name of the place...) And certainly Jack Tarmy in Bratt will have it. Any decent lumber yard can order it and get it for you in a week or so.

[ssor]

Consider pressure treated southern yellow pine. Treated for soil contact. Nearly as strong as oak and once poisoned it is as durable.

[Noah]

I used local Black Locust for my floor timbers - glued great, and very rot resistant.

[redbopeep]

We used purpleheart to replace some huge solid white oak floor timbers--the purpleheart is as strong, is readily available to-your-door in large/thick cross section and was less expensive than anything we could find (that we didn't have to glue up.)

[ishmael]

How wet is the oak, and what is the boat we're talking? If the oak has been sitting, stickered and covered, for a bit it might work fine here, even if not completely dry.

I don't like using KD in a boat. Kilning it seems to cook the life out of it. And most of the woods at a typical commercial dealer are KD. Is there other work you could do while you let the oak dry?

[Bob Smalser]

The problem with using green oak at 30-60% moisture content is that in thick billets low in the boat, it can rot long before it dries in service to below the 20% MC rot threshold.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2595357/359074266.jpg

White Oak laminates very well using resorcinol, providing you use the glue properly and select stock that won't cup or twist in the lamination. Qsawn stock is perfect. Just insure you have good fits, your resorcinol is fresh, you clamp it fairly hard and you cover the assembly with an electric blanket overnight to insure it remains at above 70 degrees for 12 hours. Hotter is better.

But the down side is your stock must be below 15% moisture content or lower to glue, and if you use storebought 4/4 stock it was probably kilned to 8% for interior cabinetry. As its service MC as oak floors will likely be 15-18% or even higher when immersed in bilge water, you'll have either minor or major swelling to deal with, which in most traditional designs can cause significant problems with the rest of your framing and any through bolts.

Your best solution is to find the right airdried or lightly kilned wood. Either another source of White Oak, Black Locust or a hard tropical at between 10-19% MC. You are in the right area of the country to find it, too. Woodfinder, Woodweb and the Forestry Forum are all resources available to help.

[ishmael]

Knowing what the boat is, how wide these floors need to be across the grain, would help. I don't imagine Vermont has a lot of WO. I know Southern Maine doesn't. Black Locust would work well, again depending on the widths needed.

Ask around. Someone on the ground will likely steer you well.

[Todd D]

I am using Douglas fir for my floors. That is what was put into the boat in 1936. They held up for 70 years. If I only get 35 years I will be happy, since I will be over 90 in 35 years.

[captain champlain]

Hello,cc here the boat is a 32' ralph winslow ketch built in 1946 by the graves yard in MASS.It is documented with the mystic seaport museam.I bought the boat in Bristol,ME last june.The boats backbone,frams,floor timb ers,deck beams etc are white oak.Planking,decking,cabinsides and coaming douglas fir.Thank for all the feedback.I

[captain champlain]

Hey,cc again i was cut off there,my question is if i were to use tropical materials for floor timbers would i have a problem using stainless steel keel bolts. Replacement bolts are going to be 316 stainless. So,if i were to replace floor timbers with a tropical wood like purpleheart and set them on a white oak structural keel and used 316 stainless keel bolts, would that combination be ok. Thanks!

[stevedwyer]

Seems like you should be able to find some air dried white oak or locust in your neck of the woods. I'd keep looking around at some of the small local sawmills.
Be careful to find good quality stainless, if that's your choice.

[starbacca]

check with tree surgeons in your area for locust as the stuff grows in all 48 states. Most of them throw the stuff away. It has very little moisture content and is incredibly rot resistant.