Awlgrip or Interlux?

[stevedwyer]

I've seen some very nice looking decks done professionally with Awlgrip.
A Concordia in Maine had her decks done recently with a creme colored, softly textured mix that was sprayed on.
I've read some posts elsewhere that suggest Interlux two-part Interthane with
a non-skid additive might be an option for those without, or not willing to use, spray equipment.

Are there any of you out there who have used Awlgrip with a roller, or applied the two-part Interlux concoction?
The result I am after is not a patterned section of non-skid areas. I'm looking for a clean, non-glossy textured look with high durability.

[pcford]

LPUs...two part polyurethanes are not appropriate for wooden craft...too stiff. Cracks and comes off in sheets.

[stevedwyer]

Fundamentally I agree with your comment...
LPUs...two part polyurethanes are not appropriate for wooden craft...too stiff. Cracks and comes off in sheets.
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2187897)The work I refer to has been done after stabilizing the deck substrate with a thin layer of plywood and them glassed and faired.
I understand this technique is not for the wooden boat purist, but in practice, some of the most well-respected boatyards are using modern materials in one form or the other.

My question is really directed toward the use and/or application of either of these two products on a similarly prepared deck surface.

[JimConlin]

I agree with the last cycle that these finishes are only appropriate for a stable substrate. Glassed plywood qualifies.

I've applied Awlgrip nonskid deck with good results. The method I used was as follows. I used a first coat of color before the coat that got gritted, but maybe it wasn't needed. I applied a uniform second coat and shook coarse Griptex (about equivalent to the Interlux 2398) into it. I used the kind of shaker seen at a restaurant's french fry table. I applied enough griptex to fully cover the paint to the point where no color was visible. After the paint cured, The excess griptex was swept off and recovered. A light brushing with a rag (or maybe a touch sanding) knocked down the few stragglers. Then the surface was vacuumed. The top coat of the Awlgrip was thinned more than the usual 1:4 with MEK rather than the Awlgrip solvent. It was pretty watery. All paint application was by roller. The first coats were tipped with foam brushes.

I have not used the current generation of Interlux LPU paint, so can't comment on that product. I am truly impressed with the comprehensiveness of the Awlgrip system and with the quality of their tech. support. And, there are dozens of colors.

The two product lines are sold through different distribution channels, so it might take some rooting about to find the right place to buy it, but I can't think of a reason not to use Awlgrip.

[stevedwyer]

Thanks Jim,
The roller method seems much more compatible for me.
How would you characterize the texture of the finish? Do you have any photos?
I'll look for Awlgrip's support material.
I found glassed plywood underneath the worn teak decking on the H-28.
Awlgrip with Griptex is high on the list as a possible solution, higher now with your comments.

[michigangeorge]

The majority of the paint problems I've seen on wooden boats has resulted from using 2 part finishes over non-epoxyed or fiberglassed wood. These finishes also have too much gloss for a traditional boat and definately for decks unless you add deglosser which is more expense and potential problem.

[Thad Van Gilder]

My old cutter had awlgrip on it ant it was terrible to get off.

-Thad

[stevedwyer]

The chemistry of either of these two paints is extremely complex.
And the space suits you need to wear to apply it!

I still prefer working with things I like the smell of and don't make me itch: Simple pigments with a linseed oil binder, oil varnish, canvas or wood.

I have to say, the Awlgrip finish had the best look and textural "feel" I've seen yet in a "modern" material.
Sort of a closely cut velvet and not plastic looking at all.
I detest the treatment used in some so called restorations where the cockpit has been entirely glassed like a fiberglass tub.

[JimConlin]

...
How would you characterize the texture of the finish?
Do you have any photos?
I'll look for Awlgrip's support material.
...
Close to #150 sandpaper. I have no pix that convey much. The variables are which grit you use and how much paint is put on top of it.
Call Awlgrip and get their application guide. Unlike Interlux, their tech support is very good.

[CundysHarbor]

I have seen Awlgrip thickened with Cabosil and rolled on to make a very durable nonskid on a stable deck surface.

[adam96]

Awlgrip with non-skid (griptex additive) is very common on plywood decks and is very durable if applied correctly. The awlgrip website has a comprehensive application guide that would be worth taking a look to understand what your getting in to. And of course if you choose to work with awlgrip a full-face respirator is a must.

[stevedwyer]

Awlgrip does post recommended application procedures including "the beginners" roll-on method Jim spoke of.
I'm wondering if the roll-on method would look comparable to the professionally done spray job I saw on the Concordia.

[MiddleAgesMan]

I have no experience with Awlgrip but Interlux's LPU (Perfection, not Interthane) was a breeze to put on my Goat Island Skiff. The gloss is incredible. It can be rolled, sprayed or brushed with the right thinner.

As for glossy finishes on decks the sheen issue is moot once you introduce non-skid to the equation. I non-skidded the bottom of my Goat with sugar, washing it out once the varnish had cured. The varnish was also an Interlux two-part finish, also called Perfection. If you have a large area you would need a person coming right behind you applying the sugar. I used about 9 pounds of it on the Goat, applying it without help but in two stages. I have pictures of it if there is any interest.

[TimH]

Whats better nonskid additive or sugar?

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/woeimages/00002052.jpg

[JimConlin]

Whats better nonskid additive or sugar?

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/woeimages/00002052.jpg
Sugar is certainly less expensive. My concern about sugar is that when the paint's worn off the top of a crystal, the crystal will dissolve leaving a crater for bad stuff to accumulate/live in. I recollect that a quart of griptex was under $20 (real price, not list) and it was enough to do the boat. The Awlgrip griptex coarse and Interlux 2398 look to me to be the same stuff. It wouldn't surprise me, as Interlux and Awlgrip are both owned by Akzo Nobel.

[rkingsland]

stevedwyer, I can't say how the roll on method works but I'll bet it's all right. I sprayed awlgrip oyster white with griptex on a pretty well prepared substrate (epoxy paint on steel, not wood) and found it to be surprisingly easy... just follow awlgrip's technical recommendations, do it as they tell you to, and it goes on pretty well. I found the coarse griptex too coarse, and the fine too fine, and ended up sanding those areas back and then mixing them about 1/2 and 1/2. That seems like maybe around 120 grit. I also found that I couldn't control it as well by shaking it on with a pepper shaker as I could by simply mixing it in the paint and keeping it suspended.

The gun spits a little as the griptex clogs the tip, and you have to keep contantly shaking it, but since it's non skid it all blends in and looks pretty good, and it flattens the gloss right out.

Color gloss coats were a little more difficult, but even that's not impossible if you read and follow the awlgrip web site... by the time you've sprayed and sanded all the primer coats you've got some experience and you're ready for color. As others have said, I wouldn't put it on unstabilized wood, but I understand you're not doing that. Important that you do the gloss color parts of the land scaping first, so you're taping on a clean edge for the non skid. If you do the non skid first you'll probably not get a sharp edge for the color coats in the channels. Doesn't matter if you're just doing all non skid.

Best, Bob http://www.sv-restless.com

[pcford]

I understand this technique is not for the wooden boat purist, but in practice, some of the most well-respected boatyards are using modern materials in one form or the other.



Well as you say, I am a wooden boat purist. I totally disdain modern materials. Here's the proof:

http://www.criterionweb.com/hurricanefolder/hurricane.html

[JimConlin]

Consider this to be the usual rant about spraying LPU paints. Don't spray it without a supplied air respirator. You really don't want to inhale spray aerosol because of the cyanide compounds in the paint.

[rkingsland]

Yes I should have added that Jim. The stuff is nasty and I wouldn't do it without a real filtered external air supply. One more hose to drag around, but it's essential. I even shaved the beard I've had forever for the approximately one month duration of painting the boat so the mask would fit right. My kids didn't recognize me.

Best, Bob http://www.sv-restless.com

[MiddleAgesMan]

Sugar is certainly less expensive. My concern about sugar is that when the paint's worn off the top of a crystal, the crystal will dissolve leaving a crater for bad stuff to accumulate/live in. I recollect that a quart of griptex was under $20 (real price, not list) and it was enough to do the boat. The Awlgrip griptex coarse and Interlux 2398 look to me to be the same stuff. It wouldn't surprise me, as Interlux and Awlgrip are both owned by Akzo Nobel.

There is no sugar left to dissolve. 100% of it is washed off the top of the paint or varnish as soon as the finish is cured enough to handle spraying it down with water. What is left behind is the texture--sugar tracks, if you will.

[pcford]

I've seen walnut shells pieces used...the pieces are large...they don't retain grunge so much.

[stevedwyer]

Don't see your point with the speedboat, pcford. And the walnuts? Might be good for some ,but it's not what I'm after.
Sounds more like the floor at the Plow and Stars.

[JimConlin]

...Sounds more like the floor at the Plow and Stars.

On one occasion, I gave that floor close study.

[watson1990]

As I was reading down this post, i kept looking for the warnings of Awlgrip.
Finally ,near the last post or so, we got a few warnings. To that I might add:
If you use awlgrip without an outside airsource,you will only get a few feet before you have the worlds worst migrain ...I don't mean a headache,,I mean blinding headache that will last for 3 days ...If you are smart, you will heed my warning,,,if you are not ,then you will most likely spend 2-3 days in the hospital..It is TRULY that bad,....but it does a GREAT JOB!!!
Send a message to TODD dunn ,a member here ...he will tell you .
When I had the time i would wander around the hinckley yard simply admiring the boats ..they got used to me and knew i was not any form of danger so they let me wander... HOWEVER ,,whenever the AWLGRIP shed was about to go to work,they would lock the doors from the inside and some warning bells [think sirens ! ] would go off,,,telling everyman and woman in the shipyard to stay away from shed # 2 [ or was it the 3rd one up ? ]
Todd has done his allied 37 and it came out great . he simply used the roll and tip method,,keeping the leading edge wet at all times with the brush..
PLEASE !!!!PLEASE!!! do not underestimate what i am telling you
about the dangers of awlgrip ....Is it worth it?
YES ! it is a great ,great finish and will hold up far longer than anything else and i won't ever use anything else... you only have to do it once !

[pcford]

Don't see your point with the speedboat, pcford. And the walnuts? Might be good for some ,but it's not what I'm after.
Sounds more like the floor at the Plow and Stars.

Regarding the speedboat...some uninformed people presume that I am a "purist" (whatever that means) who does not use modern materials and techniques.

I have no idea what the floor at the "Plow and Stars" looks like...the walnut shells are small bits maybe an 1/8" or so. If I recall correctly, they are used as a blasting medium.

Oh...one more thing. Yes, Awlgrip is very dangerous. No, it should not be used on plank on frame vessels.

[stevedwyer]

You guys are convincing me either to get a space suit for applying Awlgrip, or doing all the prep work and rolling the boat into the boatyard shed to be sprayed by others.
To quote myself....

I still prefer working with things I like the smell of and don't make me itch: Simple pigments with a linseed oil binder, oil varnish, canvas or wood.
The deck in question still has teak over a substrate of plywood sheathed in fiberglass.
While making holes in a waterproof structure to fasten the teak seems a little odd, it's not leaking.

I may just strip the old Cetol, re-seam the teak, maybe apply some linseed oil and go sailing this year.
On the other hand, while I've got the boat in the yard where they do the Awlgrip, it might make sense to get it done now.
Once I leave the yard, I expect to be left to my own devices.

The Plow and Stars is a bar in Cambridge named after Sean O'Casey's play about life in Dublin during the Irish civil war of 1922.

[dabrewer]

i,ll throw in a third product,gel coat. i spray gelcoat on [fg over ply]for my outlines then rollout gelcoat thickened with cabosil for pads.gel coat can be sprayed with disposable sprayer or brush/rolled recomend spray for good thickness.thicken to paste for pads.i use 1/4"nap roller,spread evenly then raise to uniform texture with semidry roller do one at a time, always do flats first ill snap a couple pics today at work

[JimConlin]

You guys are convincing me either to get a space suit for applying Awlgrip, or doing all the prep work and rolling the boat into the boatyard shed to be sprayed by others. ...
For rolling, gloves and a respirator with an organic vapor cartridge are sifficient. It's spraying that's really dangerous.

[stevedwyer]

Jim,
Were you able to get a nice even texture with the "shaker" method?

[JimConlin]

Jim,
Were you able to get a nice even texture with the "shaker" method?
It took a little practice. The key is to apply much too much grit material.

[dabrewer]

just hate to throw dirt on good awl grip.maybe on a lobster boat?

[mike48]

Well as you say, I am a wooden boat purist. I totally disdain modern materials. Here's the proof:

http://www.criterionweb.com/hurricanefolder/hurricane.html

FWIW, the Slo-Motion's you mentioned were conceived, designed and created by Dan Arena, an under recognized boat design genius of a man who revolutionized the world of hydroplane racing.

[pcford]

FWIW, the Slo-Motion's you mentioned were conceived, designed and created by Dan Arena, an under recognized boat design genius of a man who revolutionized the world of hydroplane racing.

That's news to me. I've met Anchor Jensen and Ron Jones, the son of Ted Jones....the designers and builder of the Slo-Mos.

About 19 days ago I was in the loft where Slo-Mo IV was built...supposedly under armed guard.

Dan Arena had nothing to do with these boats...though a pioneer in that era's design advances.

http://www.thunderboats.org/history/history0401.html

http://www.slomoshun.com/jensen.htm

[mike48]

That's news to me. I've met Anchor Jensen and Ron Jones, the son of Ted Jones....the designers and builder of the Slo-Mos.

About 19 days ago I was in the loft where Slo-Mo IV was built...supposedly under armed guard.

Dan Arena had nothing to do with these boats...though a pioneer in that era's design advances.

http://www.thunderboats.org/history/history0401.html

http://www.slomoshun.com/jensen.htm


I stand corrected, given it was on Dan's concepts and innovation upon which all others followed and copied ........

[pcford]

I stand corrected, given it was on Dan's concepts and innovation upon which all others followed and copied ........

With all due respect to Mr. Arena, I have never heard this interpretation of the development of the history of hydroplanes.

It seems to me that the development was incremental with each generation standing on the shoulders of the preceding generations.

We can say that the Slo-Mos' designs were the model for hydroplanes in the 50s and 60s.

[Boatsmith]

We routinely remove teak decks from older sailboats and trawlers and install Awlgrip nonskid. We spray when we can but frequently are in the open in a boatyard and spraying is not an option. We then roll on Awlgrip with the Griptex mixed in. There is some skill involved to obtain the same quality as a sprayed finish but is doable. We also find the fine is too fine and the coarse is too coarse and a 50/50 blend is just right. David www.boatsmithfl.com (http://www.boatsmithfl.com)

[stevedwyer]

Thanks for bringing this thread back on course, Dan.
If I understand correctly, you prepare the surface with a layer of fiberglass and epoxy, fair and prime.
Then you apply the awlgrip pre-mixed, without shaking any extra griptex?
I imagine the skill comes in loading the roller and spreading the mixture? Stippling into the corners?

The part of your response
We routinely remove teak decks from older sailboats and trawlers and install Awlgrip nonskid.points the predominant attitude that teak decks are a persistent source of trouble?
Do you have an opinion that would argue keeping an older teak deck traditionally fastened down with screws?
It seems to me, making that many holes is counterproductive.

[Boatsmith]

The teak decks that we have removed were all on sailboats or trawlers where the deck was 20 or more years old.Teak decks require maintenance, painted decks require repainting. That's just the way of boats. We never use screws to hold down a teak deck. We use epoxy and our caulk seam is the full thickness of the plank. The deck is then able to be sanded (maintained) all the way to the epoxy. We have done many jobs where we lower the screws and rebung, recut the caulk seams, recaulked, and then sanded the deck. This costs about 1/2 of a new deck and extends the life of the deck 5--7 yrs.
The paint -nonskid mixture must be continually mixed to keep the nonskid particles in suspension. The skill is in obtaining an even application without roller marks. We have one woman who usually does ours, we refer to her reverently as the nonskid queen. She has had to redo one deck out of maybe 15-18. The others looked as good as a sprayed deck. David www.boatsmithfl.com (http://www.boatsmithfl.com)

[George Ray]

NON-SKID:
The plastic micro spheres are the best all round and traction is very good. Sand or new sugar surface will HURT you and tear up clothes but the traction is the best. If you need the best traction and can stand to be hurt when you fall down and slide on the sand/sugar surface you will have to put up with a constantly dirty looking deck with a dirt tinge you can't get rid of short of pressure washing, as the stuff has so many crevices. The micro spheres are smooth enough that it does not trap the dirt. I use the Micro Spheres for all my non skid these days. Many brands available. Very fine ground up walnut shell is fairly good.

POISON: ?respiratory allergic to isocyanates?
( http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/isocyanates/ )

Not everyone is ultra sensitive to LPU but it has the potential to kill. Local boy a few years ago painted his car in his garage w/ no safety gear and was found that night, dead next his shiny car. Personally, I painted some aluminum spars a couple of years ago and the guy who helped/taught me (we were outside) had a tee shirt and a dust mask and I had full tyvek with rubber gloves and Lowes N99 cartridge mask (not best thing but better than throw away one shot dust mask). Some thing some how got to me that day because I went from peppy to 'lethargic to the max' for more than a month and the least bit of dust to this day when working in the shop will kill all my energy for a day or two. I am still living with some respiratory weakness even now. I now only use AwlGrip -roll /AwlCraft- spray using full fresh air supply. In the picture I am just sanding but that is the fresh air suit. Gaff and booms in the background.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_ODS_xL2q7J8/R2Ene0AQ98I/AAAAAAAAAIU/RB9RyPVqJfM/s400/is_00254.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_ODS_xL2q7J8/R2EnhEAQ9-I/AAAAAAAAAIk/3WWbMznfWZ8/s400/is_00252.jpg

[erster]

Rolling non skid awlquip is a no brainer. Blend the grit of your choice into your blended and catalyed paint and let sit for about 15 minutes. This allows the grit to take on the color if you use the awlquip griptex. It wears evenly and will not flake off for years. Its wonderfull stuff. Roll on your first coat after you prime your surface with the blended mix. The topcoat after the surface dries with a coat of regular topcoat paint that also further seals the grit. If you use a patterned grit area, tape off the area and coat first, pulling the tape and recoat the complete surface with the second coat. Even though the fine is pretty fine, this still creates a nice surface and very forgiving for surfaces that is also unfair or has aged in jobs of redoes or glassed decks thats been upgraded on wooden boats.

And yes awlquip in certain applications works grand on wooden boats. This is a brand new strip plank boat thats been glassed with epoxy and cloth, built with white cedar and will reside on dry land too a lot of the time that has just been rolled and tipped vertically that you cannot tell that its been hand done, no issues with overspray and all the waste and issues of spraying associated with it. You can almost read a newspaper in the sides if it was large print for old guys.:cool:

For examples, here is one that belongs to another old geezer that from even five feet you cannot tell the difference.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/DSC05856.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/DSC05855.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/DSC05864.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/DSC05859.jpg

[mwybo]

I have used this product

http://www.ultratuff.net/utmindex.htm

with great success on CPES'd plywood (Pooduck Skiff) and on the decks of production fibreglass sailboats (Cabot 36 and Marshall Sanderling). It is water soluble, does not smell, and is very easy to apply. The non skid component is rubber crumbs and it is reasonably comfortable to sit and walk on. I am in my third season of use and it has held up exceptionally well. It is somewhat flexible so should handle flexing of the painted surface. It has sat in the baking sun in Florida and at -40F here in New York and has not cracked or peeled. It rained on one application (the Cabot) before the paint was completely dry and the only problem this caused was that some color ran off onto the unpainted surfaces. It comes with its own epoxy primer. I would advise you purchase the roller from the supplier to apply the non skid component.

I have no association with the company.