Poplar for hardwood applications

[Pernicious Atavist]

Okay, for small boats it's often easiest to get red oak and poplar for the hard wood parts. We've heard all about red oak, but what about poplar?

[Bob Smalser]

Tulip or Yellow Poplar?

Huge tree...wide boards...heartwood greenish colored....pretty durable and strong....can be difficult to stain, but takes paint well.

I used to use it in a lot of interior work, but farmers where I grew up used to use the heartwood to make cattle troughs out of, so I bet it's fine for exterior applications on boats.

Downside is that there's a whole lot of sapwood and little heartwood in the small-medium logs we used to harvest.

[Pernicious Atavist]

probably yellow poplar like they sell at lowe's and home depot. avoid the heartwood ya say?

[ishmael]

I would never use poplar in a boat I wanted to last. By the conventional wisdom and all the tables I've looked at its resistance is classed as poor, and it's weak compared to oak, mahogany or fir.

In land-based cabinetwork it makes good secondary stock, or can be used for primary stock that is painted.

[Bob Smalser]

Who's that guy in Georgia using it commercially for planking stock in small boats? He was in WB a while back.

Seems to be working for him...at least in the short term.

But it's only the heartwood that's relatively durable...not the sapwood.

[ 10-06-2003, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Pernicious Atavist]

okay, nuff said about poplar. thanks!

[JimConlin]

I'm still a bit confused.

The poplar we have in New England will rot before your eyes on a damp day (small exaggeration). It's strength is, at best, in line with its weight. The only good things to be said for it is that it machines and takes paint well. Is that yellow poplar?

Some respected boatbuilders and others say that their kind of poplar holds up well- horse troughs and all that. Is that tulip poplar?

[oldriverat]

Who's that guy in Georgia using it commercially for planking stock in small boats? He was in WB a while back Rob White in Georgia uses Tulip Poplar and saturates the boats in epoxy.

[almeyer]

I bought some poplar from lowes to make a canoe paddle. Easy to work, and wound up with a nice light paddle. I really enjoyed until I got a crack in the shaft. Then went to red oak - couldn't find ash. A lot heavier, and a whole lot harder to work, but doing some reshaping got the weight down to something managable. Based on that experience, I'll pass on poplar in the future. Any application that's suitable for poplar is probably also good for white pine.
Al

[Dutch Rub]

If you have to saturate the boats in epoxy to get a modicum of rot resistance, would it not be easier to use a rot resistant wood to begin with and save the epoxy for glueing up joints?

I would also never use poplar as a hull material in a boat I wanted to last. Lay a polar board on the ground for a year here and next year you have spalted poplar. Know what spalting is?

[Bob Smalser]

Depends on whether the wood is free for the taking?

W. Hemlock is probably the most rot-prone common wood we have in the Pac NW...and there's been no shortage of boats made of it, especially in Alaska.

Old-growth tight-grain Hemlock in a cold climate holds up pretty well, from what I've seen.

[AndyFarquhar]

Here in Eastern PA, we have early 17th century Swedish log cabins still going strong. The logs in some are from big tulip polars. These seem pretty rot resistant smile.gif

I don't know why there does not seem to be a history of tulip poplar for boat building. I suspect that it was used for dugouts long ago. I've used it for canoe gunnels and thwarts with no problems. It's easy to find big, clear boards as the first branch on some of the old tulip poplars can be 30 feet or more off the ground.

Tulip poplar does split fairly easily, which is great for firewood. If you nail or screw into it, you should predrill. On the other hand, it planes like butter.

Regards

Andy

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by JimConlin:

The poplar we have in New England will rot before your eyes on a damp day (small exaggeration). Jim,

Tulip Poplar a different tree from the skinny windbreak poplars I think you mean...that wood is akin to Aspen and Alder, which do spalt within a month of hitting the ground.

State tree of Penna....look at the skyline of an old-growth forest there and the tallest trees of over 100 feet are "Yellow (Tulip) Popples". Large messy flowers in Springtime.

http://www.2shoptrees.net/product_images/thumbnails/Tulip_Poplar_New.jpg

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrology/syllabus/picts/ltulipiferaleaf.jpg

edited to add "Liriodendron tulipifera"...not a true poplar

[ 10-07-2003, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Wayne Jeffers]

In case it isn't clear, yellow poplar and tulip poplar are two names for the same tree.

Technically, it is not a true poplar, but rather it is a member of the magnolia family.

As has been noted, it is very useful for secondary applications in furniture making. And for painted furniture, it machines wonderfully and the grain does not show through paint.

In the old days, it was commonly and successfully used in construction, (e.g., joists, rafters) where it would be kept dry. And yes, it was sometimes used for troughs where it would be moderately long lived since it figured to be saturated with water, which kept out much of the oxygen the bacteria need to reduce it to pulp.

But when a tree dies in the forest, poplar will rot off at the base faster than anything else I've seen. When it falls to the ground, it will rot in record time.

Exclude water and/or air and any wood will last a while. Give it water and air and warm temperatures and yellow/tulip poplar will rot quickly.

Wayne

[Ken Hutchins]

The poplars are like the birches, when a tree dies it will rot real, real quick, but saw the logs into boards, properly air dry and it is amazing how durable it is. Back in the horse and buggy and early automotive days most of the bodies were made out of poplar for the panels with oak or ash for frames. Lots of these things are still around 100+ years later. Great wood for anything painted.

[Bob Smalser]

...forgot all about Studebaker wagons...popple planking on White Oak frames.

Certainly worked well in severe exposure there.

[ishmael]

All that said, people have made and do make boats out of damn near anything, including cardboard. I had a cousin-in-law, back before the kayak craze, who built a small, crude kayak of his own design out of masonite and glass tape and polyester. It lasted about five years. But he learned a lot. If you have access to cheap poplar and want to knock together a little punt, just for the experience, I'd say go for it.

The question was, however, "how about poplar for framing in small boats?" Nix.

Think about how much time it takes to build even the most simple flat-bottom skiff. Then figure out how much framing stock goes into it, and I think you'll see it's a false economy. Same with red oak in southern climes. And one could counter, "But what if you sealed it really well with epoxy?" Two things: how much extra work that is, AND how often framing in a small boat gets dings and dents in normal wear and use that would need to be constantly looked after. Not to mention a third, the issue of strength.

Spring for some nice white oak and be done with it.

Ed,

It's your boat, put whatever you want in it, but don't say you weren't warned. Oh and remind me never to buy one of Rob White's lapstrake boats. No offense to Rob, but the thought of trying to make sure the epoxy coating on a small, lapstrake skiff stays intact seems absurd. Give me cedar, or give me rot.

[ 10-07-2003, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[ishmael]

And I'm contemplating why poplar--or I've always liked the colloquial, 'popple'--was used successfully in the bodies of early cars. (If it was. It seems to me resto on those old buggy usually involve a complete rebuild of the wood parts.) I don't know, but there must be some reason that makes it different than the framing in small boats, something making it better protected.

Maybe not, I've only used it in cabinetwork, but until someone proves otherwise to me I'll go with the test data, and the experience of various folks here: popple rots quickly if it has the right moisture content for fungi.

I reiterate: with all the work involved in building a nice small boat why not go with the best materials?

[ 10-07-2003, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Matt Middleton]

Hi Ed- Home Depot had some wood advertised as Douglas Fir when I was there last week- there were some nice straight grained, quartersawn boards in the pile.

So this leads to two questions- is this really Douglas Fir, and if so, can it be used for frames? Anybody know?

[ishmael]

I don't know Matt, but get up close and personal and smell it. Fir has a distinctive smell. Think the last time you smelled fir ply being sawn. It also has a distinctive red-orange color...

Oh, and yes! If it's Dougfir it makes very good framing material.

[ 10-07-2003, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Bob Smalser]

I wouldn't try popple for frames (or planking, for that matter), but for painted rails, wales risers, guards, thwarts....or even knees....I see absolutely no reason not to if you have good heartwood.

I also wouldn't bother with expensive epoxy saturation....or poly paint for that matter...bed faying surfaces in red lead or thinned copper antifouling paint....saturate with hot linseed/turps/drier til it won't take any more. Wait several weeks for the linseed to dry then use alkyd oil-based paint.

But your boat...your choice.

And DF heartwood makes great frames....that's what all the PacNW trollers/gillnetters/seiners are all out of. And for heavy planking applications it's real common out here, too.

I'd trust HD's judgment and advertising about as far as I could throw it, however....been reports here of eastern HD stores selling inferior, rot-prone HemFir as DF. DF's grain structure looks a bit like oak with dark latewood rings, light tan sapwood and almost a pinkish heartwood in fresh-cut boards. HemFir (True Fir(s) and W. Hemlock mixed) looks blandish light tan in comparison with only slightly-darker tan latewood rings.

[ 10-07-2003, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[hoz]

When I was in Michigan and Minnesota "popple" meant aspen, not poplar. Isn't there a difference?

[Donn]

Populus spp.
Salicaceae

Aspen
Populus grandidentata
(Bigtooth Aspen)

Populus tremuloides
(Quaking Aspen)

Aspen (the genus Populus) is composed of 35 species which contain the cottonwoods and poplars. Species in this group are native to Eurasia/north Africa [25], Central America [2] and North America [8]. All species look alike microscopically. The word populus is the classical Latin name for the poplar tree.

Other Common Names

Populus grandidentata American aspen, aspen, bigtooth aspen, Canadian poplar, large poplar, largetooth aspen, large-toothed poplar, poplar, white poplar

Populus tremuloides American aspen, American poplar, aspen, aspen poplar, golden aspen, golden trembling aspen, leaf aspen, mountain aspen, poplar, popple, quaking asp, quaking aspen, quiver-leaf, trembling aspen, trembling poplar, Vancouver aspen, white poplar

more... (http://www.windsorplywood.com/nam_hardwoods/salicaceae.html)

[ 10-07-2003, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Donn ]

[Matt Middleton]

Your descriptions of DF sounds like what I saw. That's good because we don't have many places to get wood other than the Home Depot and Lowes around here.

That's prob'ly the problem that Ed's running into- is it?

Matt

[ishmael]

Liriodendron tulipifera, Tulip Poplar. It's one of the few Latin names I remember from twenty five years ago, because it's so lyrical. I mean, how does Ambystoma tigrinim, Tiger salamander, compare I ask ya? ;)

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrology/syllabus/ltulipifera.htm

[ 10-07-2003, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Bob Smalser]

DF averages about 75pct the strength of White Oak with both at 20pct M/C...so I'd adjust my scantling sizes accordingly.

[Pernicious Atavist]

oh, hell boys! i didn't mean to start a barfight and walk out....(hi, matt!) i'm fixin' to build a skiff--16x3---to paddle, pole and sail here on the indian river, and i was thinking i should use hardwood for the transom and stem--the rest will be 1/4 ply since my wood guy quoted $500 for lumber! (geez)
but, what a great conversation!

[Jack Heinlen]

If this seems a barfight Ed, you obviously ain't been here very long.

[Pernicious Atavist]

well, that was more of a euphemism, actually, and i haven't been here vey long, you're right!

[Pernicious Atavist]

...and, if anybody's keeping track, i'm fixin' to build two or three boats--the skiff and a sharpie in the 20ft range, or maybe an egret, if my girl gets her way. of course, she thinks i can build ANYTHING and has no concept of the difference between a 20 and 28 foot boat!

[AndyFarquhar]

Bob Smalser:

"Tulip Poplar ... State tree of Penna"

It should be our state tree but Eastern Hemlock really is.

Regards

Andy

[Dutch Rub]

best thing bout tulip poplar is its flowers make great spring fodder for honey bees. And they grow fast and have a good shape. If you uns want to build a boat out of rot prone lumber have at it, but you will only be adding to the rotten wooden boat theory held by many when it begins deteriorationg before its time..

[L.W. Baxter]

I'm coming in at the tail end, but I can't resist, because a piece of "Hem-fir" almost killed me!

In these parts, Doug fir (supremely tough wood, even full of knots, waned off, and split down the center) is used for house framing and truss parts. One day I was walking on the bottom chords of some trusses, as I have done for years without incident, when one broke, and I fell 12 feet. :(

Wondering why the hell it broke, I inspected the trusses and found that they were stamped "hem-fir". So I will say this, Don't trust your life to hem-fir...and don't trust your life to a construction engineer, for that matter...

[Matt Middleton]

Hi Ed- who's your wood guy?

The only place I knew to go was Brevard Hardwoods, but I see they're selling their building (awesome place- an old schoolhouse) down on Malabar Rd. Did they go under or just move?

Matt

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by L.W. Baxter:
I'm coming in at the tail end, but I can't resist, because a piece of "Hem-fir" almost killed me!
Stuff happens. Was using some hand-selected, quartersawn DF 2X6 rafters for roof jack scaffold planks on the last building I put up this Summer....at the end of the project when dismantling the scaffolding, tossed one of them to the ground and it shattered into three pieces across the grain...after I'd been trusting my weight on it for over a week.

Compression wood I never saw when I milled the board....looked perfect from the outside.

[Pernicious Atavist]

that's him, matt. he's moving. he told me he could supply cypress in thin dimensions, but i think for those prices i'd better get a thickness planer and go to that cypress yard on 192. you know that one?

[dadadata]

===
I'm still a bit confused.
The poplar we have in New England will rot before your eyes on a damp day (small exaggeration). It's strength is, at best, in line with its weight. The only good things to be said for it is that it machines and takes paint well. Is that yellow poplar?
Some respected boatbuilders and others say that their kind of poplar holds up well- horse troughs and all that. Is that tulip poplar?
===

Tulip poplar/yellow poplar is Lirodendron - is related to Magnolia - is not actually a poplar. Tulip pop logs were often used for dugout canoes by Native Am'r on the Chesapeake.

As long as the logs are wet, the wood will not rot and tulip canoes have been dug out of mudflats after several hundred years.

I've read an account of a far west trek ca 1820s that involved carving dugouts out of COTTONWOOD using hatchets and bowie knives to get down the Rio Grande. Sufficient unto the purpose was such "horrible boatbuilding wood" and they lasted the month or so they were needed. Cottonwood is indeed a poplar.

Remember that the USDA's wood ratings are for wood in contact with the ground (fence posts, pole building poles, etc).

Robb White encapsulates his tulip planks in glass and epoxy, so it's something like baltek (balsa core) by the time all is said and done. I don't hear people screaming about balsa planking... <chuckle>

Tulip is light, strong for its weight, clear and straight grained. Someone probably needs to build a couple poplar skiffs treated with different stuff (cuprinol, porch paint, yadda) and see what happens. I've been trying to find some tulip pieces to make masts and booms but finding straight windfall poles is tough. I have some pieces which look like they can be drawknifed down into nice tillers.

On the other hand a boat made of plain tulip planks, untreated and uncoated, will last maybe 2-3 years. The Cabin-Boat Primer (1913) tells you to go ahead and use tulip if that's all you can get/afford but make sure you get down the Mississippi within a couple seasons and then sell the boat's remains for firewood!

[Matt Middleton]

ed- Nope, I haven't seen it. Wherabouts is it? Also, where is Brev. Hardwoods locating to?