building with low grade plywood

[ShaiL]

Can I build a boat, that most of the time parks on the shore and is used once a week for several hours, with low grade playwood ?
How low ?
How would it affect her life span ?

[Lew Barrett]

Why? What's the appeal apart from cheap initial materials bill? Your labor is the biggest investment.

[pcford]

Can I build a boat, that most of the time parks on the shore and is used once a week for several hours, with low grade playwood ?
How low ?
How would it affect her life span ?

You can build a boat out of door skins...it won't last and it'll be crappy to work with.

[peter radclyffe]

Can I build a boat, that most of the time parks on the shore and is used once a week for several hours, with low grade playwood ?
How low ?
How would it affect her life span ?
you can , but why, it is better if you can look back on the things you've made & feel good

[floatingkiwi]

It is like God saying,"I might build a planet", and,"Now, how much **** do I have to work with"?

[pcford]

you can , but why, it is better if you can look back on the things you've made & feel good

yep. well said.

sometime I'd like to talk about the 800 lb gorilla in the room of Wooden Boat Magazine:

Wooden Boat is for _wooden boats_ not classic boats. There are a lot people that don't care a hoot about traditional....they just want to get a boat on the water as cheaply as possible. This audience does not comport well with classic boats.

Personally, I hate plywood and avoid it whenever I can...to spend your time making something out of clearly inferior products is something I cannot understand.

[johnw]

When I bought my first Snipe, it turned out the previous owner had used interior plywood for the deck and centerboard case. Of course, the glue basically dissolves in water, so it was coming apart. The term of art is delamination. Near as I can tell, he wasn't building a boat to use, he was building a model to the scale of 1" = 1". If he'd never touched the boat it would have been far easier to restore.

By all means, if you are building a model boat that will never go near the water, use crappy plywood. If you expect the boat to remain useful, use marine ply and coat it with three layers of epoxy.

[ShaiL]

I just wanted an assessment on how long such a boat would last, then I can make my calculations on whether to build it with cheap plywood.
Remember, it would be immersed in the water 4 hours a week.

[TerryLL]

Yep, go right ahead. Ignore all that advice above. Buy the cheapest plywood you can find. Build it quick and dirty. Then stand back and proudly watch it fall apart. Take pride in the comments of friends and strangers who universally proclaim your new boat a piece of crap. Get it out of your system now so you can move on to building a proper boat with proper materials. Experience is the best teacher.

[johnw]

I just wanted an assessment on how long such a boat would last, then I can make my calculations on whether to build it with cheap plywood.
Remember, it would be immersed in the water 4 hours a week.


4 hours a week is way too much water for cheap plywood. It will start delaminating after the first week.

Even marine plywood will check if you don't seal it properly. The wood swells and shrinks and tries to break free from the glue. If the glue is water soluliable it will succeed.

[Windsong]

Learn to swim with all your clothes on. Toys R Us sells inflatables that will work as life boats too. Never time or money to do it one time right always time and money to do it twice. Cheap ply is for patterns.

[Lew Barrett]

No need to be caustic, so let's say that in the opinion of those who have so far weighed in....and this is unusual here.....the unanimous verdict is that it's not worth the time...or what money might be spent....in building of inferior materials.
The project won't last a year without showing major issues, since 200 hours (at 4 per week) actually represents a good bit of use for a private boat.

[Bobcat]

Aren't all exterior plywoods, even the cheap stuff, made with waterproof glue?

I think there is something to be said for the quick and dirty boat. If it fells apart after a few years, so be it.

My first boat was a cheap 6 hour canoe. I built in part to get a boat built and to slay the all-too-common sentiment among wooden boat people that if you can't do it perfectly with the best materials available, you shouldn't do it at all.

[pcford]

Aren't all exterior plywoods, even the cheap stuff, made with waterproof glue?

I think there is something to be said for the quick and dirty boat. If it fells apart after a few years, so be it.

My first boat was a cheap 6 hour canoe. I built in part to get a boat built and to slay the all-too-common sentiment among wooden boat people that if you can't do it perfectly with the best materials available, you shouldn't do it at all.

There is nobody saying that you have to use the best possible materials, just appropriate materials. That's what works for most of us...you can build a boat out of old newspapers if you want...it's been done.

I like to have pride in my work. YMMV.

See post #6.

[Spokaloo]

I think we need to come back a little to the boat TYPE.

I have two canoes that are built for $46 an $65 including all materials. They have been crappy but serviceable canoes that get used somewhere on the order of the asker, stored appropriately, and poorly maintained as far as recoating paint.

One has had the decks fall off, at which point an oversized batch of epoxy from another build was used to fix it. The skeg has fallen off once, but Gorilla glue cured that. The other has a small blister delamination that was repaired with epoxy.

Both boats are cheap. Both boats still hold people in and water out. Pretty they aren't. Serviceable they are.

If you want to build something extremely small, simple, and cheap, then I can see the reasoning for it. If it is a boat that has a motor, will be used in the sea when the wind is blowing, or will not receive diligent maintenance, it is purely false economy.

E

[peter radclyffe]

I just wanted an assessment on how long such a boat would last, then I can make my calculations on whether to build it with cheap plywood.
Remember, it would be immersed in the water 4 hours a week.
get a piece of junk ply ,boil it in water & then tell us what you think as it delaminates, this is probably what will happen to your boat

[Bobcat]

There is nobody saying that you have to use the best possible materials, just appropriate materials. That's what works for most of us...you can build a boat out of old newspapers if you want...it's been done.

I like to have pride in my work. YMMV.

See post #6.

I beg to differ. How many articles has Woodenboat run over the years focusing on the "proper" way to do things?. How many articles about the search for the best possible wood, including people going to Central America to pick the trees to be felled? There is a current that if a boat can't be built to the highest standards don't bother. That attitude, in my view, stops a lot of people from ever even starting to build boats.

You can have pride in a good job with cheap materials. You just have to understand what you're aiming to do.

I think on balance, it's better to have more people building wooden boats even if some of them are cheap boats. Those who built the economy model will likely move onto a better design and contruct the next boat better.

[Todd D]

I see no reason that you can't build a work boat type boat for low usage from exterior grade plywood. If you pay a lot of attention to sealing the plywood with good quality paint and epoxy on the edges the boat should last for a few years. Building from exterior plywood will be a good exercise in learning how to build a boat. In addition it will make fixing errors cheaper.

Heck, I built a small dinghy from 1" blue construction foam back in 1999-2000. I still have it and it is in good shape. It rows very nicely.

[Woxbox]

boil it in water

Not that one again! Nobody boils their boats. In fact, if you make a boat of exterior fir ply and keep it in a garage when you're not using it, it will last for a very long time. But be aware that fir ply has a mind of its own. Even in storage, the surface can check and even tear open fiberglass covering.

If you can find a copy of Harold "Dynamite" Payson's "Instant Boats" he'll tell you everything you need to know about building a cheap plywood boat. Some disagree with his methods, but he's built lots of boats that have seen lots of use.

My personal feeling is that a small boat done right is better than a bigger one done cheap. But if your budget is tight and you need to fit four adults in the boat that you just have to build, there are certainly cheap ways to get there.

[outofthenorm]

I like to have pride in my work. YMMV.



The implication to the above is that one cannot take pride in having built something unless the materials pass the standard expressed on this forum. I disagree. Pride of accomplishment flows from doing the best one can with the materials one chooses or has available, in full knowledge of the limitations and characteristics of the materials. Based on so little evidence, to sneer at someone's else's way of doing things is mere prejudice.

I'm sure PCFord, that if you or I were broke and wanted to get on the water, either of us (and lots of others here) could build a nice little skiff using just depot pine, deck screws, cotton string, some putty and a bucket of paint. It might have a short life, but we could still be proud of it, because we put honest effort and care into it.

The question asked is a good one, and deserves more than high-toned answers.

Shail - IMO, the answer to your question is that if you build your boat well, paint or otherwise seal every surface as well as you can, and maintain it properly, you'll get 3-6 years of safe use out of your new boat - maybe longer. Change to better materials, epoxy everything, use bronze and stainless steel where you use metal, and you'll get 10-20 years before it's done - maybe longer.

- Norm

[pcford]

Not that one again! Nobody boils their boats.

Really? Oh well I guess that's a foolish criterion then.

Boiling is an attempt to compress the effects of time on the glued joint.

[Bobcat]

I like the test of boiling or soaking. I made some oarlock pads with some salvaged hardwood from a table pedestal. Mistake. The laminations were glued with something that was not waterproof. The replacement pads were made with some leftover hardwood ply. I threw a piece in bucket of water for week. When it came through intact, I decided to use it.

[pcford]

The implication to the above is that one cannot take pride in having built something unless the materials pass the standard expressed on this forum. I disagree. Pride of accomplishment flows from doing the best one can with the materials one chooses or has available, in full knowledge of the limitations and characteristics of the materials. Based on so little evidence, to sneer at someone's else's way of doing things is mere prejudice.

I'm sure PCFord, that if you or I were broke and wanted to get on the water, either of us (and lots of others here) could build a nice little skiff using just depot pine, deck screws, cotton string, some putty and a bucket of paint. It might have a short life, but we could still be proud of it, because we put honest effort and care into it.

The question asked is a good one, and deserves more than high-toned answers.

Peter - IMO, the answer to your question is that if you build your boat well, paint or otherwise seal every surface as well as you can, and maintain it properly, you'll get 3-6 years of safe use out of your new boat - maybe longer. Change to better materials, epoxy everything, use bronze and stainless steel where you use metal, and you'll get 10-20 years before it's done - maybe longer.

- Norm

A guy once bragged to me that he had built a boat for $15.65. Outa doorskins.

He had built a "boat-like" object. Doing stuff like this has absolutely no attraction to me. I have spent a good share of my life doing things well even though the client will never be aware of the steps.

Doing it cheaply so that you maybe get away with it for a few years....not for me.

I can certainly imagine using relatively inexpensive materials. Boats don't have to be made of bronze, teak and mahogany. But there is an audience that slides from that to doorskins, rec room paneling adhesive and steel screws.

This sort of attitude toward craftsmanship is at least partially to blame for the condition that this country finds itself.

[Captain Intrepid]

Really? Oh well I guess that's a foolish criterion then.

Boiling is an attempt to compress the effects of time on the glued joint.

And its one that fails. You're subjecting it to thermal forces that it will never face.

[pcford]

And its one that fails. You're subjecting it to thermal forces that it will never face.

Go talk to the standards people and see if you can get things change to suit you. Otherwise, it's a commonly accept way of judging "waterproofness."

[Bob Smalser]

Galilee, Israel

Can I build a boat, that most of the time parks on the shore and is used once a week for several hours, with low grade playwood ?

How low ?

How would it affect her life span ?

Sure you can. In fact, I think it's an excellent idea.

A basic flat-bottomed skiff is a good first project to make all your mistakes on at minimal expense, and will give you a boat to use while you are building a more sophisticated design later.

You enjoy a climate where wood rot isn't quite the problem it is most places here, but deterioration from UV light where you are is rapid and severe. As solid wood in boat species is probably very expensive where you are, I recommend a design that uses mostly plywood with glass fabric and fillets replacing what would normally be solid framing. And I'd probably use light, 3-4oz glass and epoxy on much of the assembled plywood to protect the outer lamination from alternate wetting and baking. You'll need to use exterior-grade plywood, and you'll need to keep it well painted to protect all that epoxy from the sun.

You'll also need a little more time, because one difference between marine and lower-grade plywood are voids in the laminations. Safety requires that you not have any voids in your plywood joints, so if you hit one during cutting, you should fill it with epoxy before assembling the joint.

Providing you use exterior-grade ply, how long it lasts will depend mostly on how well you build and maintain it. Make sure with epoxy or bedding compound that water can't get into the wood joints/screw holes, and with paint and cover that sunlight can't fry the outer laminations, and the boat can last indefinitely.

So find your design, make a materials list for it, and price all the materials. Then talk to your plywood supplier about how much additional proper marine plywood will add to the cost of the project, and see for yourself why conventional wisdom says don't scrimp on the wood.

[Captain Intrepid]

Go talk to the standards people and see if you can get things change to suit you. Otherwise, it's a commonly accept way of judging "waterproofness."

It depends on the level of waterproofedness you need. Five minutes, a few hours, a couple days, a week, indefinitely?

[pcford]

It depends on the level of waterproofedness you need. Five minutes, a few hours, a couple days, a week, indefinitely?

Don't know about you but I would rather not guess, thank you very much.

[Captain Intrepid]

Thats why i prefer real world examples to compare from. :) No need to guess, or guess with unrealistic tests.

[outofthenorm]

A guy once bragged to me that he had built a boat for $15.65. Outa doorskins.


One absurd example hardly serves to make your point. Doorskins were not suggested. The question was "how low" is OK?



Doing stuff like this has absolutely no attraction to me. I have spent a good share of my life doing things well even though the client will never be aware of the steps.

But this isn't about you, is it? It's about trying to answer an honest question from a fellow member. Do you disagree with my direct answer to his question?


Doing it cheaply so that you maybe get away with it for a few years....not for me.

Get away with what? We're not talking about a boat built for sale. It's for personal use, and it only has to last as long as the builder needs it to. Your standard is for you, not other people.


I can certainly imagine using relatively inexpensive materials. Boats don't have to be made of bronze, teak and mahogany. But there is an audience that slides from that to doorskins, rec room paneling adhesive and steel screws.

Another irrelevancy. If it's the "slippery slope" that worries you, I'd suggest that you say so up front and offer your professional advice on that point, not just arrogant statements about personal preferences. Why not draw attention to the fact that "quick and dirty" has to be tempered with common sense. If you know there's a difference between $7 doorskin and $18 outdoor quality fir - why not share that knowledge with the newcomer?


This sort of attitude toward craftsmanship is at least partially to blame for the condition that this country finds itself.

One major point: craftsmanship is clearly not a pure function of materials chosen. Even you would likely agree that it is the contribution of the craftsman that counts the most.

Even so, I'm not sure quite what you're trying to say here. In my country as in yours, over at least 2 centuries, hundreds of thousands of small boats have been built by mariners and fisherman out of the materials at hand, using, as I said earlier, honest effort and care. Look at the old photos of real watermen and you'll see plenty of low grade materials shaped into some fine little boats. Are you implying that they had no pride either? Bollocks.


- Norm

[pcford]

Thats why i prefer real world examples to compare from. :) No need to guess, or guess with unrealistic tests.

Presumably you oppose testing of drugs as well?

You can build your boats out of anything you wish.

[Mike Vogdes]

What do the plans call for? The biggest mistake newbies make is the failure to follow the plans. I'm sure if you are building a boat designed for plywood the designer will spec a marine plywood suitable for the design you are building.

Building with low grade plywood is waste of time, especially if you do a decent job building the boat and actually manage to finish it. Many homebuilt boats don't get finished because the builder looses interest or is in way over his head. You will surely kick yourself in the ass if after a few months you notice that CDX starting to delaminate.
3 to 6 years is a pipe dream... It really depends on how you use it, and treat it, but I would say months.

[JimConlin]

Someone who's building a boat is responsible for the lives that'll ride in it. If your doorskin (or lauan or baltic birch) ply boat composts quietly some winter, that's OK. If it falls apart in use and kills someone, you're responsible.
I've used non-durable ply for non-structural parts, but i'd never use it where its failure would endanger the occupants.

[Lew Barrett]

My first restoration was a 15 foot plywood Cavalier that drew oohs and ahs when it was done. It was 30 years old when I got it, and in fundamentally excellent shape, with little wood replacement required. Of course, as a factory built Chris Craft, it was made of high quality ply and hardware, and when I was done, was set to give many years more of pleasure.

Re-read Smalser's post and do that exercise of pricing a bill of materials. I suspect, even as a first time builder, you may find it worth the additional expense to invest a bit extra in the raw materials, as I believe that anyone with a reasonable brain and the motivation can teach themselves to build something nice right from the start. Unless your object is to determine exactly how inexpensively a boat can be constructed, the added expense of marine grade materials is modest compared to your labor. I am a firm believer in the adage that "it's a poor carpenter who blames his tools (or wood)" but I also believe that anything worth doing is worth doing well. There is no doubt in my mind that there are people here who can build a better boat from salvage materials than I can from the very finest stock, and that cheap boats are built regularly, but I would prefer to invest my time in a project with some assurance of long term utility.
My Chris, by the way, used no epoxy in it's original construction, rather relying on the decent quality of the basic materials to see it through many years. It's still probably out there....somewhere....giving somebody pleasure today. I lost track of the guy I sold it to, but he got a good lake boat and a good deal when he bought it from me, and I was quite proud of it for the entire time I owned it.
Shalom!

[JimD]

I hope you're not thinking of building a Heron class sailboat quick and dirty with cheap plywood.

[Tar Devil]

the added expense of marine grade materials is modest compared to your labor.

You guys keep saying this... but many people are in the same boat as I - when I built my boat I had plenty of time, but not much money. Yeah, if I price the labor hours I spent on my boat it would be appreciably more than the cost of materials. The truth is I can offer my labor for free, therefore the bottom line reality is materials are the biggest expense in my boat.

I built my canoe for about 150 bucks a year ago. It looks great, spends way more than 4 hours per week in the water and today looks absolutely as good as the day I launched it.

If I were building something other than a cheap canoe I certainly would use better materials, but I think exterior ply is plenty good for my project.

[kulas44]

Get Beulers (sp) book "backyard boat building", these guys will hate him but he has a lot of tried and true ideas. I doesn't have to be perfect, just the best you can do with what you have at hand. When your "crap boat" sails out of the harbour past the guy that's been building the "perfect boat" for five or ten years befor you even started, you will be vindicated,,,,,AND SAILING.

[oznabrag]

You guys keep saying this... but many people are in the same boat as I - when I build my boat I had plenty of time, but not much money. Yeah, if I price the labor hours I spent on my boat it would be appreciably more than the cost of materials. The truth is I can offer my labor for free, therefore the bottom line reality is materials are the biggest expense in my boat.

I built my canoe for about 150 bucks a year ago. It looks great, spends way more than 4 hours per week in the water and today looks absolutely as good as the day I launched it.

If I were building something other than a cheap canoe I certainly would use better materials, but I think exterior ply is plenty good for my project.

I am certainly with you on this one.

Not everybody has the time or money or ability or even inclination to build a polished, solid-mahogany work of art. If I had such a boat, I would probably sell it, because I would be too afraid that I'd scratch it to ever use it!

Further, I like to use lumberyard plywood and lumber because I know the thing won't last forever, so I always have an excuse to (you guessed it!) build another boat!

On to the lumberyard: There's exterior ply, and there's exterior ply.
The stuff they sell for sub-flooring is pretty dang durable, and will demonstrably remain intact after being submerged for several weeks, if not months. Of course, planking a small boat in 3/4" Sturdifloor would be...overkill.:D

[Spokaloo]

Someone better go back in time and tell 'ol Brockway that his skiffs aren't up to snuff with their CDX ply, tar, and steel nails. Oh, and catch a few guys on the wharf with boats of his over 20 years old that are still there that they can't use their boats because they aren't built of the right materials. They could get hurt!

E

[peter radclyffe]

I am certainly with you on this one.

Not everybody has the time or money or ability or even inclination to build a polished, solid-mahogany work of art. If I had such a boat, I would probably sell it, because I would be too afraid that I'd scratch it to ever use it!

Further, I like to use lumberyard plywood and lumber because I know the thing won't last forever, so I always have an excuse to (you guessed it!) build another boat!

On to the lumberyard: There's exterior ply, and there's exterior ply.
The stuff they sell for sub-flooring is pretty dang durable, and will demonstrably remain intact after being submerged for several weeks, if not months. Of course, planking a small boat in 3/4" Sturdifloor would be...overkill.:D
im not saying dont use cheap ply, use it if you want, ive been taught to build yachts to last 30-40 years, not 30 days, one of the first boats i had was a lump of polystyrene to cross the river, it worked fine, its all i could afford,nothing, im not sneering at you using cheap materials, when ive been forced to use them in the past ive felt wretched, you have terrific stocks of cheap good timber , it may be better to use timber than junk ply, from what you asked i presume you meant the worst ply, not ext ply which would last well if sealed properly, & kept sealed year after year, i just would rather you didnt waste your precious time & effort

[Bruce Hooke]

I have a flat-bottomed punt that I built out of lumberyard pine and 1/4" fir plywood. I haven't used it recently because my canoes are really better for going very far, but it held up to a good bit of use in its day. The down sides of using relatively cheap plywood have been:

A. The plywood checks. Nothing you can do about this other than fiberglass the plywood, at which point you'd be better off having just bought better plywood from the get go. On the other hand, for a boat that spends most of its time on dry land, under cover, checks are largely a cosmetic issue.

B. The combination of checks and interior voids in the plywood meant that my punt leaked a bit until I did some detective work to find the leaks and plug them.

To me, when considering using cheap materials, there are a couple of key factors that should be considered:

1. How will the boat be used? If we are talking about a small boat that will mostly be used in warm shallow waters then there is less to be worried about than a boat that will be taken into deeper cold water far from shore. Even if my punt sank under me, in the places I use it I could just get out and walk or at worst swim a few strokes to shore.

2. Are the rest of the materials, and the planned construction approach in line with the inexpensive plywood? It would be foolish to build a complicated, fancy boat using cheap materials, and foolish to use cheap plywood but then spend a fortune on bronze hardware. Don't fall into the trap of starting with the plan to build a quick and dirty boat but then getting all wrapped up in making things perfect when it comes to fit and finish.

As long as those to factors are kept in mind and as long as you at least use exterior grade plywood I certainly think there is a place for quick and dirty boatbuilding.

Do watch out to make sure that you are using exterior grade plywood and that you are getting plywood that is reasonably structural sound. Some plywoods are of such flimsy construction that they really would not work for anything that needs to carry a load, which a boat certainly does! Look out for plywoods with very thin surface veneers...this stuff can be very flimsy.

[S B]

Plenty of boats built with low grade material and first rate skill, as well as the other way arround, and everything in between. Use what you like, after all ,it's your boat.

[ShagRock]

Shail...sorry, I don't have a link to provide, but I have seen references to marine plywood being manufactured and exported from Israel. Might be worth at least checking out.

[pcford]

Shail...sorry, I don't have a link to provide, but I have seen references to marine plywood being manufactured and exported from Israel. Might be worth at least checking out.

Shellman plywood?

[Lew Barrett]

You guys keep saying this... but many people are in the same boat as I - when I built my boat I had plenty of time, but not much money. Yeah, if I price the labor hours I spent on my boat it would be appreciably more than the cost of materials. The truth is I can offer my labor for free, therefore the bottom line reality is materials are the biggest expense in my boat.

I built my canoe for about 150 bucks a year ago. It looks great, spends way more than 4 hours per week in the water and today looks absolutely as good as the day I launched it.

If I were building something other than a cheap canoe I certainly would use better materials, but I think exterior ply is plenty good for my project.

You may be right. The truth, as has been made plain by smarter people than me is that we really don't know much about the application, the boat, the plans or the expected use except that it is to be four hours a week. But then, we don't know how long a period that four hours a week is expected to stretch, how the boat will be stored, or the scope of the project. I think as I do because I have come to believe that for most things, it is better to take a long term view in respect to utility. It's for that reason that even a simple boat should, in my view, be built from proven durable materials. But clearly, not everyone takes this position. So I will modify my stance and say; if one is looking to create a project that has lasting and enduring value, one can't build a silk purse out of a sow's ear. It makes much less difference if one is building something for the short haul. In that event, use whatever is expedient. I thought Bob Smalser's post was well thought out. I think Bruce's is as well; not uncharacteristic. Circumstances vary, and I can see your point. But I would still build even a simple boat from better materials unless I was entirely unable. That's not how I think of the question that was posed. The question as I see it is "Are better materials better?" Or perhaps put another way: "What can I expect from building with lesser materials...is there a difference." Argue that if you like. There's a difference in quality and although I'm delighted for all of you who have built and are enjoying boats made from big box wood, and acknowledge that not only is it possible, it's done, it still is not the optimal approach. I don't really see what there is to argue about in that.

The world and the world's landfills are full of cheaply made things. The older I get, the less interest I have in filling up landfills. But, I also said "it's a poor craftsman who blames his tools...or the wood." I had hoped that would imply that fine craftsmanship can go into a boat made of lesser materials and that one could thus take pride in whatever one made as long as one did one's best. I hope that makes my position firmly clear.

[Mike V.]

Shelman plywood is manufactured in Greece. Kelet is an Israeli plywood manufacturer but I think they are out of business. Another Israeli plywood is Tal. I think Tal is sold by Edensaw.

I'll throw in my 2 cents on the cheap plywood question. I built my first and only boat, (a Bolger Junebug), 10 years ago. I used a fir plywood with the trade name Superply. As long as I kept it stored in my garage there was no checking. After a few years I decided I wanted the room in the garage so I stored it outdoors under a blue plastic tarp. Within a year it had significant checking even where it was covered. I've also had to repair a punky area on the topside. If I ever build another boat I will certainly use a better plywood. Frequently people say that if the cheap plywood fails in their quick and dirty boat they will simply build another. This is fine if they have the time, I don't. I work long hours and had to mostly build between the hours of 9:00 pm and 2:00 am. I don't see myself building again until I can free up some time so I will have to either make my Junebug last or buy something else.

[2MeterTroll]

Can I build a boat, that most of the time parks on the shore and is used once a week for several hours, with low grade playwood ?
How low ?
How would it affect her life span ?

my first boat totally on my own was a plywood sailing pram made from 1/2" CDX and a couple old two by fours. it was sized to fit my pickup bed. I built it on the deck of a ship on the way to Alaska. painted it with two part Devo epoxy.
that boat lasted for way over ten years with a fix or repair now and again.

just build the boat with what you have, treat it as a learning experiance. and go sail around. she will need more care that one made out of prime materials, but thats part of building your own boat.

[peter radclyffe]

[quote=2MeterTroll;2170589]my first boat totally on my own was a plywood sailing pram made from 1/2" CDX and a couple old two by fours. it was sized to fit my pickup bed. I built it on the deck of a ship on the way to Alaska. painted it with two part Devo epoxy.
that boat lasted for way over ten years with a fix or repair now and again.

just build the boat with what you have, treat it as a learning experiance. and go sail around. she will need more care that one made out of prime materials, but thats part of building your own boat.[/quOTE
one guy built a boat out of stuff in garbage skips & sailed it across the atlantic, erik the red, fantastic, thats get up & go for you, walk out the door, grab what you can find, build a boat, terrific

[P.L.Lenihan]

Personally, I hate plywood and avoid it whenever I can...to spend your time making something out of clearly inferior products is something I cannot understand.

I share the same feeling,personally, as you.Unfortunately, I keep falling in love with boats for which my favorite designer only specifies plywood. Ding darn and double drats, I shoulda taken up golf :)

Peter

[holzbt]

It depends on the boat. I've built some pretty nice planked boats out of white pine, white cedar, red cedar, and cypress. I've also built some boats out of good marine ply and some from yellow pine BCX. The cheap ply boats were either duck hunting boats that are only used for a few weeks a years and put away or garvies for shellfishing. The last one was for a friend about 10 years ago. BCX ply, some red oak that I didn't want to use on a "GOOD" boat and galvanized screws and bolts that were taking up space in my shop. He glassed it using polyester resin. Total cost was under $500. He used it for 8 years and gave it away when he moved. The boat is still doing fine. Will it last forever- no, can you build a useable boat out of less than perfect materials- absolutely. Not every boat has to be a work of art.

[ShaiL]

Thanks,

It was not made clear, I intend to build a small boat (11 feet) as my first build.

I have understood some points:
* The cost difference between a fine wood and low grade wood relative to the total cost is minor. I will make this calculation myself.
* The lowest grade recommended is exterior plywood.
* An inferior wood would require:
- a good sealing and better, coating with fiberglass.
- storing the boat in dry conditions.
- more maintenance effort but then it might last some years.
* An inferior wood boat would be less nice but will "still hold people in and water out".
* "Someone who's building a boat is responsible for the lives that'll ride in it" :-).

[P.L.Lenihan]

You'll do just fine Shail,especially with such a nice litle boat.The more you expose yourself to building various little boats you'll soon discover whether you have the "bug" or not and plywood really isn't all that bad as some,like pcford, would like to have you believe.Remember alot of these purist have made a good living repairing countless boats which were all made with"proper" materials......just something for you to keep in mind :)


Peter

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

ShaiL - I seem to recall that Israel exports pretty good marine ply.

The price differential may be less than you are perhaps expecting.

[Rational Root]

Buy a 1/4 sheet of the ply you intend to use.

Cut it into 3 pieces.

Paint & Seal one the way you plan to paint and seal the boat.
Leave it in a bucket of water every second day, leave it stored the way you intend to store the boat every other day.
Throw it around the driveway a bit to simulate wear and tear.
This will give you an idea how the wood will survive.

Do the same with a second piece, without any coating.
This will give you an idea how the wood will survive once water eventually gets in.

Leave the third (unpainted) piece out in the weather. Sunlight, rain, damp, the works. This will give you some idea how it will last long term.

Also.

They plies should be more or less equal in thickness. The Three ply stuff with outside plies that are about as thick as paint, and an inside ply which is 90% of the total thickness is only strong in one direction. Avoid this.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

There is a fair price differential between different grades of marine plywood!

In Britain, we generally use plywood from Robbins, in Bristol.

From their current price list, an "8 x 4" sheet of 6mm plywood is

£11.34 for "exterior grade" hardwood WBP

£48.88 for "Elite" - standard marine 5-ply BS1088

£112.72 for "Super Elite" (all mahogany) BS1088

£116.62 for "Super Elite Plus" (all rotary cut sapele) BS1088.

I've just made some buoyancy tanks in a racing dinghy using Elite and I've just ordered some Super Elite Plus for a racing dinghy deck.

But Mirelle's cabin sole boards are half inch teak laid on one inch exterior grade ply, epoxied all round and covered with glass cloth on the undersides and edges, and they have been there for 14 years now.

Taking Bob Smalser's point - the cost of tree wood, epoxy, fastenings and paint is going to be the same anyway.

[obscured by clouds]

I see no reason not to use WBP if you properly consider the constraints inherent in going down a notch or two quality wise.

I'd love to use elite and all the rest but my wallet just won't extend to that. I'd like laid teak decks too, but that's another bunch of ££££ I cannot afford.

For my refit of Sibrwd - 40 year old GRP National 18 - I'm using WBP for the cockpit sole and birch face for the decks - all suitably sealed, primed and bedded down.

I reckon I've got another 20 years of light usage solo sailing at the most to look forward to - so if I get that long out of this I'll be happy.

My last conversion was a old Soling - done some 15 years ago in WBP, and even with the mistakes I made then the boat is still sailing around with all my work still intact, and the new owner as happy as can be [and fully aware of how I had gone about things - he helped me do much of it]

So I would say - use what you want, but be aware of it's limitations and the extra input that might be required.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Floorboards - I agree with you.

Decking - I'd go up notch in quality and down a notch in thickness and use Elite.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I build small boats using the Stitch and Glue method. Brits call it "Tack and Tape".
On any site where S&G is discussed the use of low cost plywood constantly comes up. Here in the US the answers are, generally, the same in every discussion.
Pine or fir plywood is heavy. As much as 1/3rd more than okoume. That can be a large extra burden on a small boat.
Fir plywood will, eventually, check if left out in direct sunlight. The remedy, a layer of 'glass and epoxy will run the weight up significaly and it's not cheap to do.
Any plywood used for boats must have waterproof , not water resistant, exterior grade glue. When in doubt boil piece for 20 minutes or more.
American made exterior grade plywood suffers from quality problems. Manufacturers of this stuff belong to associations that establish local standards and there doesn't seem to be any effort to demand members obey the rules.
It is common to use torn veneers on the interior laminations. The voids that result are weak spots and if moisture gets in rot will certainly follow. A void in a 3 veneer ply panel means that 1/3rd of the strength is missing at that spot.
It is common on luan underlayment to have one or more thick veneers of some unknown, low quality wood and outter veneers of luan that are ½mm thick or less. The outer veneers hold the panel together but they contribute no strength.
There are underlayment plywoods that are designed to go under high-end floor coverings. They are made to high standards but the cost is midway between luan and okoume. They are made from lightweight North American softwoods that require epoxy resin encapsulation to protect them from rot.
Any properly made ply has veneers that are equal, or nearly so, in thickness. Each veneer contributes to the strength of the panel.
Properly made ply always has an odd number of veneers. Four veneer ply is marketed in the US and it is very unstabile in conditions of varying humidity.
If I use any 6mm or 9mm exterior grade ply I examine it by backlighting each panel with a 250 watt spotlight. In a dark room the voids will show up as an orange colored glow. This will only work on 3 veneer panels.
I had a very pretty panel that was 2/3rds scrap. The better part ended up in the little sailboat in my avatar. The remainder of it is holding my computer up at the moment.
I think the well known Israeli plywood manufacturerer, Kelet Afakim (sic) was closed some years ago.
Hope this ramble helps.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Thanks, Chuck. Not rambling at all -I'd meant to make the point about weight (good in floor boards, bad in decks and topsides) but I rambled past it! :)

It's astonishing how light Robbins Elite ply (to take a UK example) is - but it's good stuff.

[mcdenny]

I bought some plywood (not for a boat) at a big orange store a while ago and got caught in the rain on the way home. It started to delaminate the next day as the face swelled so much it lifted off the core. No boiling test required.

OTOH I built a pea pod out of 1/4" luan underlayment, carefully coated with epoxy & paint, that lasted me fine stored outside for several years. I sold it a long time ago - it might still be sailing with some TLC.

One of the problems with good marine ply is that (for most people) it is difficult to get without a long drive or truck freight. That fact alone probably motivates many builders to use what they can get locally.

[Syed]

I made my boat with used plywood of packing boxes for overseas shipments. She is more than 8 years old. No problem so far.

[peter radclyffe]

Buy a 1/4 sheet of the ply you intend to use.

Cut it into 3 pieces.

Paint & Seal one the way you plan to paint and seal the boat.
Leave it in a bucket of water every second day, leave it stored the way you intend to store the boat every other day.
Throw it around the driveway a bit to simulate wear and tear.
This will give you an idea how the wood will survive.

Do the same with a second piece, without any coating.
This will give you an idea how the wood will survive once water eventually gets in.

Leave the third (unpainted) piece out in the weather. Sunlight, rain, damp, the works. This will give you some idea how it will last long term.

Also.

They plies should be more or less equal in thickness. The Three ply stuff with outside plies that are about as thick as paint, and an inside ply which is 90% of the total thickness is only strong in one direction. Avoid this.
finally toss the the lot into a skip, then set fire to it, this will simulate your boat being stolen or catching on fire, just joking

[Tom Hunter]

The decks of my sailboat are CDX with epoxy over. She was built in 1969. By 2006 parts of them had gotten wet and rotten and needed to be replaced, other parts are fine.

[SHClark]

ShaiL:
You will find thousands of well argued opinions here. Many of which will be defended to the death if necessary. I have seen boats built out of very expensive materials that didn't last more than a few seasons and also own a 55 year old fir plywood skiff ( on red oak chines and ribs fastened with steel) that my grandfather built for my Dad the year I was born. Like many things there is variability in the results.
My opinion: This is your first build. As such you will make mistakes. Some of the geometry in boat building gets pretty obscure and it is sometimes hard to get things cut to exactly the right shape first time. It is a lot easier to throw away a cheap piece of plywood than it is to throw away an expensive piece of plywood. So from the standpoint of learning the craft, go cheap. Be prudent about how you do it and don't use material which isn't glued together with waterproof glue, and it helps if you aren't fighting the wood as well as the shape.
Ultimately, you may discover that it is more enjoyable to use really nice materials. If you do this for fun, then I think it is more fun to have high quality materials to play with.

SHC

[Robmill0605]

I've been kicking the idea around of building a Bolger Sneakeasy,so I've done some reading on this subject of inexpensive plywood. In my research I've read Reuel Parkers method with regard to non-marine materials. He uses form-ply made for concrete forms. It is waterproof and has a smooth outer coating( it's not MDO). The plys are yellow pine and its available from regular lumberyard sources. He uses square drive coated deck screws as fasteners and then sheaths the hull in glass and epoxy.
Sounds good to me.
I've also have Buehlers Backyard Boat Building and have read his ideas.
In pricing okume or maeranti ply etc, it's really nuts. Do es one really need a 1088 stamped ply for a Sneakeasy etc?
There are acceptable alternatives to these materials and I would never use fir or luan or door skin as Bolger and Dynamite Payson suggests.
But there ARE alternatives in building a plywood boat besides so called "marine" materials the difference in the cost of these materials and methods is an legitmate concern IMO.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

ShaiL:
You will find thousands of well argued opinions here. Many of which will be defended to the death if necessary. I have seen boats built out of very expensive materials that didn't last more than a few seasons and also own a 55 year old fir plywood skiff ( on red oak chines and ribs fastened with steel) that my grandfather built for my Dad the year I was born. Like many things there is variability in the results.
My opinion: This is your first build. As such you will make mistakes. Some of the geometry in boat building gets pretty obscure and it is sometimes hard to get things cut to exactly the right shape first time. It is a lot easier to throw away a cheap piece of plywood than it is to throw away an expensive piece of plywood. So from the standpoint of learning the craft, go cheap. Be prudent about how you do it and don't use material which isn't glued together with waterproof glue, and it helps if you aren't fighting the wood as well as the shape.
Ultimately, you may discover that it is more enjoyable to use really nice materials. If you do this for fun, then I think it is more fun to have high quality materials to play with.

SHC

Emphasis mine. Really good point.

There is another approach, which is to use the cheapest possible plywood to make patterns for each panel, then clamp these to the sheet of expensive stuff and cut it from them. Just like using steel screws for trial assemblies of frames and stems and using bronze screws for the final assembly with glue.

In fact, time spent doing "dry runs" of this sort is never wasted - the very best professional boatbuilders that I know do it all the time, and if its good enough for them, its good enough for me.:)

[James McMullen]

Each cat his own rat. I enjoyed building cheap crappy little instant boats at one time--built at least half a dozen of 'em. All of 'em worked good enough--none of them worked particularly well. I didn't spend very much money on any of them. They worked okay while I was a poor and penniless young man.

Now that I have the means and the skills to build and own really good boats, the cheap-o plywood ones aren't really my cup o' tea any more. (I don't spend a lot of time playing Tic-Tac-Toe these days either, if you understand the analogy.) But I understand the desperate urge to build a boat when you can't hardly afford to buy materials. Just don't be under any illusions that you aren't making a big compromise for short-term gain.

One of the benefits of a cheap and crappy little boat is that it doesn't cost too much to throw it away and start over when you get sick of it. Something like a Bolger Teal will let you use up a couple of sheets of CDX and a couple weekends to see whether or not you like boatbuilding.

[Hwyl]

Originally Posted by SHClark ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Emphasis mine. Really good point.


In fact, time spent doing "dry runs" of this sort is never wasted - the very best professional boatbuilders that I know do it all the time, and if its good enough for them, its good enough for me.:)

Andrew, Steve is amongst the " very best professional boatbuilders"

[Thorne]

One reason for the strong reaction against building "el cheapo" ply boats is the damage it does to the reputation of wooden boats in general. Happened to me -- the first large(ish) boat I bought was a Glen-L sailboat, and rotten enough to put a crowbar through the hull in sections. Sold it for the trailer and hardware...

The Oregon Coots have occasional "boat burning parties", which I think is a brilliant idea. That way those building cheap boats (or restoring dodgy old ones) take the responsibility of also making sure they are destroyed.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Originally Posted by SHClark ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Andrew, Steve is amongst the " very best professional boatbuilders"

Which is no doubt why he made the point - I just drew it out a bit! I certainly intended no disrespect!

[paladin]

I made my boat with used plywood of packing boxes for overseas shipments. She is more than 8 years old. No problem so far.


Syed...I did the same in Vietnam......the U.S. gov't was buying marine grade plywood, all they could get, for shipping crates....they shipped Bell helicopters in marine ply crates.....fantastic stuff.....

[slidercat]

One point I didn't notice being made is that in the case of at least one kind of wooden boat, plywood had to be invented before the boat was really practical. When veterans of the Pacific theater returned home with visions of swift sailing outriggers in their heads, solid timber construction was not really an option, because the boats had to be lighter, stiffer, and stronger than was easy to achieve using solid timber.

Fortunately, plywood was invented at almost the same time. The first successful modern multihull, might have been Manu Kai, built by Woody Brown, who drew on his skills as a glider builder. It wouldn't have been possible without plywood.

Nowadays, builders of wooden multis can use other techniques, like cold molding (home-made plywood in the shape of a boat) or strip planking (wood as a core material between glass skins.) But I believe that if you'd rather be sailing than building, and you want a wooden multi, your best choice of material will be plywood.

[davebrown]

there is a lot to learn wrasslin' 1/4" acx or cdx ply. or, the second boat i built was a 14 ft. skiff out of luann. i got lucky: i recorded 62 trips in it and gave it away to a sr. citizen down in the delta. two weeks ago i happened by and saw it on sawhorses in front of his house, evidently being re-painted. i doubt if it cost me $150 total to build. and it was not glassed, except i did tape the seams inside and out with 3" FG tape and epoxy. it is not recommended to build using luann, because some percentage of the plywood is going to fall apart. i got lucky,a nd had a great experience on every aspect of the build--and use--of that skiff, "the dolcetta".

[Greno]

new twist. I am (re)building a mullet boat and went to the lumber yard today. Had 1/2 ac fir and 1/2 ab marine. The marine was stamped formaldehyde glue which the ac was not, but I got the impression the a/c was the same stuff, but with a few more footballs on the back face. The marine play was essentially garbage. They are both manufactured in Canada. The ac is $35 per sheet and the marine is $64. I am going later to another supplier that stocks Georgia Pacific products to look at their 1/2 marine as well ($54/sheet).

Its a tough call. My boat was a work boat and will be used to trout fish and maybe stick out in the gulf and catch a snapper at the close rigs. It is a real tough call. The boat was built of pine and 5/8 ply. I am building back with 1/2 as I will not be hauling a 1500 foot net and a ton of mullet. I am planning on glassing the seams and bottom (abrasion resistance for beaching), but just painting the insides. I just don't think a trailered boat that will be covered will suffer from the lack of "marine" in my case.

Those of you who have never seen work boats don't understand the "poor" materials used in construction. I would never use the knotty cheap pine that was used to build this boat or even attempt to bend the chine with the knots in it for that matter, but I can show you a few that are still around as the builder built them for 60+ years.

[davebrown]

part of the issue here is to what extent a beginner (and i am probably a beginner to most people on this forum) and a professional builder can evaluate risk. a pro builder can take common grade exterior materials, overbuild part of it, compensate on part of it, and turn out a serviceable boat that will last yrs. but that is because the professional builder will draw upon yrs of experience and separate what will work from what won't work: risk analysis. i observe that in my own snail-like progress in this wonderful past-time. in one of the earlier posts, a builder describes using a bright light to gauge whether there are internal voids in a piece of plywood--great example of how experience dictates necessity, and what us amateurs just don't know about...

[Bob Cleek]

yep. well said.

sometime I'd like to talk about the 800 lb gorilla in the room of Wooden Boat Magazine:

Wooden Boat is for _wooden boats_ not classic boats. There are a lot people that don't care a hoot about traditional....they just want to get a boat on the water as cheaply as possible. This audience does not comport well with classic boats.

Personally, I hate plywood and avoid it whenever I can...to spend your time making something out of clearly inferior products is something I cannot understand.

As some may recall (noting that we've had a whole lot of "newbies" descend on the forum in recent months), I've kicked that 800 pound gorilla in the nuts a time or two in the past.

I've owned several plywood boats, the largest being a 25 footer. I've come to avoid it like the plague whenever possible. People who sell plywood, and particularly people who sell epoxy and fibreglass resins, seduce the multitude who have always dreamed of building their own boat, often for misguided reasons of economy. I always chuckle when somebody tries to cut corners buying cheap plywood, expecting to cure its deficiencies with a coating of epoxy or fibreglass. The materials cost of a comparable traditionally planked hull will nearly always be less. They forget how expensive that plastic coating material will be! Then, of course, the hull is but a fraction of the overall cost, the remainder being essentially the same, irrespective of the hull material.

The argument that cheap construction "gets people on the water" is pure bunk. In this day and age (like with classic wooden boats forty years ago), if simply getting a boat you can sail inexpensively is your primary objective, it is far, far, more cost effective to simply buy a decent used fibreglass boat. (Remembering that if you are interested in the cachet of a "wooden" boat, fibreglassed plywood ain't gonna get you there.) There are any number of excellent models that can be had practically for the asking. Fully found Cal 20's and Santana 22's in great shape are selling for $1,500 or less these days and larger twenty or thirty year old fibreglass boats are correspondingly inexpensive. Do the math.

The allure of plywood and its attendant construction methods is primarily the seductive, but hollow, promise that one can build a boat without investing the time to learn the trade adequately. The advertisement, "No lofting!" has sold more plywood and epoxy resin than anything else, I'd expect. You can't hardly blame the victims, though. They look at Chapelle's "Boatbuilding" and the like and simply "glaze over" when they realize they have to learn to do the math, draw the lines, read plans that are incomprehensible to the novice, and buy and learn to use tools they've never heard of before. (Some tools, even, that you have to sharpen and that don't come with cords and batteries attached!)

That said, quick and dirty boats have their place to a limited extent, but I strongly agree with PC that there's a world of difference between a traditional wooden boat and boats that simply happen to have wood in them. I can't blame WB magazine for casting its net wide, though, since they are in the business of selling magazines and the greater number of people who are interested in what is in their magazine, the more magazines they sell. When WB #1 was published, those few of us Neanderthals in the classic yacht game back then were certain it was a fool's errand, because you couldn't find enough people interested in "wooden" boats to keep a magazine like that afloat. We were wrong. However, we were wrong because we weren't considering all the people who would be interested in building boats "out of wood," rather than just traditional "wooden boats."

Building any boat is fun, so I'm not going to denigrate anybody who does. Still, we should be careful to maintain the distinction between sound traditional construction and the quick and dirty. While they were never my cup of tea, I have seen a few very nice ferrocement vessels. Like the current plywood, strip planked, and cold molded hulls slathered in epoxy fad, every guy who decided to act on his dream of building a boat jumped on the ferrocement bandwagon because it "promised" a cheap way to build a huge hull with little or no boatbuilding skill or experience. Eventually, driveways, fields, and junkyards were dotted with rusting, cracked, unfinished blocks of cement and chickenwire and the ferrocement boat became a dirty word. We must take care that the current crop of "woodenboats" don't give real wooden boats the same sort of bad name.

As for cheap or expensive plywood? Well, at the end of the day, cheap or expensive, you're still going to have a plywood boat. Do it your way. Just don't expect that it will ever compete in quality, value or desireability with a traditionally, properly constructed wood boat. You can build a running hot rod out of junkyard parts and have a lot of fun tooling around town in it, but don't expect anybody to reserve a parking place for it on the lawn at Pebble Beach.

Snooty? You betcha! I think those who've done their time and spent their money (often a lot less than you'd think) on the "good stuff" are entitled to that.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

ShaiL:
You will find thousands of well argued opinions here. Many of which will be defended to the death if necessary. I have seen boats built out of very expensive materials that didn't last more than a few seasons and also own a 55 year old fir plywood skiff ( on red oak chines and ribs fastened with steel) that my grandfather built for my Dad the year I was born. Like many things there is variability in the results.
My opinion: This is your first build. As such you will make mistakes. Some of the geometry in boat building gets pretty obscure and it is sometimes hard to get things cut to exactly the right shape first time. It is a lot easier to throw away a cheap piece of plywood than it is to throw away an expensive piece of plywood. So from the standpoint of learning the craft, go cheap. Be prudent about how you do it and don't use material which isn't glued together with waterproof glue, and it helps if you aren't fighting the wood as well as the shape.
Ultimately, you may discover that it is more enjoyable to use really nice materials. If you do this for fun, then I think it is more fun to have high quality materials to play with.

SHC

You said the magic words-"55 year old" . If you can find me some ¼" exterior of that vintage I would buy a pallet load.
Today's plywoods have qualities similar to today's "securitized debt instruments". They are only good enough to get people to buy them. If you look inside either you may not like what you find.

[Captain Blight]

Bob, this stich-n-glue "fad" has lasted almost 40 years, with some boats that were built at the outset still floating high and dry. There are also some that were built year before last that wouldn't make good flower planters today.

"Slidercat" here on the forum built a small catamaran with 1/4" inch birch underlayment. Now, birch isn't a terribly rot-resistant species, but the underlayment has five plies of more or less equal thickness and it's made with waterproof glues. I've made a couple kiteboards of the stuff and they have held up very well. One is coated in paint, one is coated with cotton bedded in epoxy (I found some fabric I really liked). All holes and edges are thoroughly sealed. I guess I use them about 4-6 hours a week, in season; at the end of a session, they get wiped down and stacked in the corner. No rot yet. If you can come up with a test that puts more flexion in a piece 5 feet long, I'd like to hear it.

[Bob Cleek]

Like I said, they have their place. Once again, back to that "800 pound gorilla:" it depends on what you consider a "woodenboat." Others have their own definitions, but me, well, a wooden boat is a boat that depends on wood for its shape, structural and watertight integrity and is held together mechanically, rather than by adhesives. But that's just pretty much what all the old Luddites in the wooden boat game consider a wooden boat. Kiteboards, small catamaran pontoons, taped plywood duck hunting punts, kayaks that are dry stored... well... sure, they serve their purpose. Plywood craft that live in the marine environment full time... not so sure.

The question at hand was whether such construction was cost effective. That I will dispute. I don't think you are saving anything building a twelve foot slab sided skiff out of cheap plywood and then coating it with five hundred bucks worth of epoxy to keep it from falling apart when you can build a boat that will be worth a lot more and likely last a lot longer for maybe three hundred bucks worth of quality "real" wood and not have to deal with covering yourself head to toe in googe. But that's just my opinion.

[Captain Blight]

Others have their own definitions, but me, well, a wooden boat is a boat that depends on wood for its shape, structural and watertight integrity and is held together mechanically, rather than by adhesives. I don't necessarily disagree with you in the rest of your post, but I do take exception with this. Is a modern freighter or destroyeer any less a ship because the plating's welded and not rivetted? Why would the manner of fastening make any difference at all to the definition?

As far as the denigration of "Rec room panelling adhesive," remember that there are people out there who think "No Wood!" is a superior method of construction for a vessel (I wish them mortification, and cold porridge and vinegar for supper). Just because something's used for what may be considered an inferior purpose does not in and of itself make it an inferior product. We're coming to learn that PL Premium is a pretty damned good boatbuilding glue.

[Greno]

i have used pl on sevaral small pirogues, but the big boat is getting glued with epoxy. it was origially put together with stainless ring nails and 5200. its undoing was the new bottom put on by the former owner without sealing the end grain. i am going to use marine fir. hell the nails costs 100.

[erster]

ROFLMAO!!!! If a solid wood boat fastened with genuine hardware, approved by all the professed purist experts were so superior, we would never read a single thread on this forum about all the stressing over chipping paint, filling cracks, replugging the counterbored holes from plugs popping out and hire critical care nurses to pull 24 hour shifts in the springtime or upon relaunching to be able to use the damn thing for six or so weeks out of the year in most cases. We would also never read about these so called experts fixing anyone of these wonder machines which are considered derilicts by insurance companies and marinas either, forbidding these godsent vessels anywhere near them either..

We would never read or hear about making sure a professional surveyor should be consulted before making a purchase of the only boat that anyone should own, a solid wooden hull with cracking seams and cotton hanging from the joints and a full cost analysis of how much it will cost to make the purist's delight seaworthy for the family which usually scares off the newcomer to the pluses of being on the water messing about in boats.


Epoxy and plywood rules and many folks drool from the docks as a lot of folks launch their pieces of junk, while many armchair boat professionals sit in front of the computer screens of boat forums scorning many people that are also out on the water each weekend too that wonder into this place.

[Mike Vogdes]

Now don't hold back Mike...

[J. Dillon]

ROFLMAO!!!! If a solid wood boat fastened with genuine hardware, approved by all the professed purist experts were so superior, we would never read a single thread on this forum about all the stressing over chipping paint, filling cracks, replugging the counterbored holes from plugs popping out and hire critical care nurses to pull 24 hour shifts in the springtime or upon relaunching to be able to use the damn thing for six or so weeks out of the year in most cases. We would also never read about these so called experts fixing anyone of these wonder machines which are considered derilicts by insurance companies and marinas either, forbidding these godsent vessels anywhere near them either..

We would never read or hear about making sure a professional surveyor should be consulted before making a purchase of the only boat that anyone should own, a solid wooden hull with cracking seams and cotton hanging from the joints and a full cost analysis of how much it will cost to make the purist's delight seaworthy for the family which usually scares off the newcomer to the pluses of being on the water messing about in boats.


Epoxy and plywood rules and many folks drool from the docks as a lot of folks launch their pieces of junk, while many armchair boat professionals sit in front of the computer screens of boat forums scorning many people that are also out on the water each weekend too that wonder into this place.


Well said Mike. :D Lets see how well Mr. Cleek rebuttals your argument.;)

JD

[pcford]

ROFLMAO!!!! If a solid wood boat fastened with genuine hardware, approved by all the professed purist experts were so superior, we would never read a single thread on this forum about all the stressing over chipping paint, filling cracks, replugging the counterbored holes from plugs popping out and hire critical care nurses to pull 24 hour shifts in the springtime or upon relaunching to be able to use the damn thing for six or so weeks out of the year in most cases. We would also never read about these so called experts fixing anyone of these wonder machines which are considered derilicts by insurance companies and marinas either, forbidding these godsent vessels anywhere near them either..

We would never read or hear about making sure a professional surveyor should be consulted before making a purchase of the only boat that anyone should own, a solid wooden hull with cracking seams and cotton hanging from the joints and a full cost analysis of how much it will cost to make the purist's delight seaworthy for the family which usually scares off the newcomer to the pluses of being on the water messing about in boats.


Epoxy and plywood rules and many folks drool from the docks as a lot of folks launch their pieces of junk, while many armchair boat professionals sit in front of the computer screens of boat forums scorning many people that are also out on the water each weekend too that wonder into this place.

Any have their erster decoder ring on? Can't find mine. There is apparently a lot of feeling being expressed...about what is the problem.

Somebody send a summary, thanks.

[J. Dillon]

I don't need a decoder ring .:D He makes prefect sense to me,so he misspells few words.;)

JD

[johnw]

I'm with erster. Look, there's cheap ply, and there's not quite as cheap ply. At least get exterior grade.

[Bob Smalser]

Epoxy and plywood rules....



Unless of course, it's a Draketail takeoff in cypress done entirely by rack-of-eye. ;)

Not exactly stitch-and-goo to storebought patterns, eh? But anything that's economical and makes sense for your locale is a good beginning.


http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2595357/362115967.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2595357/362115958.jpg

[L.W. Baxter]

I built this piece of crap out of exterior grade fir plywood. I'm so ashamed.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3582/3464719072_a6cb0dc9e0_o.jpg

[2MeterTroll]

as well you should be! look at that infestation of kids.

Gees you old farts will never learn about kid infestations. i tell you.
:)

[peter radclyffe]

I've been kicking the idea around of building a Bolger Sneakeasy,so I've done some reading on this subject of inexpensive plywood. In my research I've read Reuel Parkers method with regard to non-marine materials. He uses form-ply made for concrete forms. It is waterproof and has a smooth outer coating( it's not MDO). The plys are yellow pine and its available from regular lumberyard sources. He uses square drive coated deck screws as fasteners and then sheaths the hull in glass and epoxy.
Sounds good to me.
I've also have Buehlers Backyard Boat Building and have read his ideas.
In pricing okume or maeranti ply etc, it's really nuts. Do es one really need a 1088 stamped ply for a Sneakeasy etc?
There are acceptable alternatives to these materials and I would never use fir or luan or door skin as Bolger and Dynamite Payson suggests.
But there ARE alternatives in building a plywood boat besides so called "marine" materials the difference in the cost of these materials and methods is an legitmate concern IMO.
form ply, what we call d.f shuttering ply is tough stuff, if you leave a piece of 18mm outside, untreated the top layer lifts a bit ,the end may become frayed but thats it, its very well made, & cheap, & strong

[James McMullen]

Some folks appreciate the subtle interplay of complex flavors of a robust Burgundy coupled with a nicely ripened camembert or an Époisses de Bourgogne. . . .

. . .and some are content with a can of Miller Lite and a fistful of Cheetos.

[pcford]

Some folks appreciate the subtle interplay of complex flavors of a robust Burgundy coupled with a nicely ripened camembert or an Époisses de Bourgogne. . . .

. . .and some are content with a can of Miller Lite and a fistful of Cheetos.

Yes, one of the reasons I posted earlier is wondering how you get the guy with the fistful of Cheetos to converse with others fruitfully.

There's a lot posturing, straw-man building and exaggeration on this thread. Mostly heat and not much light.

I will think on this and post tomorrow.

[P.L.Lenihan]

The allure of plywood and its attendant construction methods is primarily the seductive, but hollow, promise that one can build a boat without investing the time to learn the trade adequately.

Heeheehee:D It is not at all "hollow" in fact it does exactly what it purports to do. There is a place in this world for amateur non-tradesman.Hobbyist I think is a close enough or correct word.Is the simple pleasure of being out on the water different for the chap in a laminated wood boat instead of a planked boat? I think not:)

Quit kicking that poor gorilla in the nuts, you big meanie:D

Cheers!


Peter

[P.L.Lenihan]

Some folks appreciate the subtle interplay of complex flavors of a robust Burgundy coupled with a nicely ripened camembert or an Époisses de Bourgogne. . . .

. . .and some are content with a can of Miller Lite and a fistful of Cheetos.

Can I still have my 20 year old earthy rich red Port,possessed with a saucy habit of sliding down ones throat like a shameless hussys' tongue on a cold winters' night but leaving only a hint of aged birch bark to tickle ones adenoids as it passes while still shovelling fist-fulls of Cheetos down my gullet? I gotta know real soon too, I'm expecting company and wouldn't want to appear too gauche!


Peter

[Bill Huson]

Just go ahead and build it. Sure, it is very satisfying to use the "correct" materials and build a work of art. Might even be so pretty you'd be reluctant to use it as a boat. But say you wanna build a boat and get OUT ON THE WATER! Pick a simple design, collect exterior plywood, stitch, staple, or glue that sucker together, slobber some sort of waterproof finish on it, and LAUNCH! It will be ugly, and as many purists mentioned, the cheesy wood will give it up after ... umm, lemme see 4 hours on nice weekends ... say a decade maybe.

Just build it. Good practice.

[ShaiL]

Thank you guys, I have learnt a lot from this thread.

[erster]

Bob, in the words of Mr. P.L. ,,, But also that piece of crap is still sitting on a boat trailer :eek: ready at a moments notice to hit the water. Of course that could also be a thread of trashing less than perfect construction methods and construction materials since I also used big box materials to hold it together and house paint that is now three years old and good as new, and awaits the early demise. Poor kids of mine, I do feel sorry for them.:rolleyes:


Quit kicking that poor gorilla in the nuts, you big meanie:D

Cheers!


Peter

But I must confess in the area of boat porn that I am bi-sexual and even transgender too which I thought was :cool: and in these days you know.:D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/DSC05246.jpg

[erster]

Thank you guys, I have learnt a lot from this thread.
Isreal use to provide some of the very best marine grade plywoods in occume 1088.
Marine grade plywood is also all over the place these days. Here are several threads for some idle time reading.

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7643


http://www.boat-links.com/plyfaq.html

http://www.fishyfish.com/boards/index.php?topic=490.0

http://www.fishyfish.com/boards/index.php?board=4.0

Oh, remember the Spruce Goose was built using birch plywood, IIRC. Now enough litter, gotta go paint some Kiltz.

[SHClark]

Hwyl: Thanks for the compliment, but I wouldn't put myself in that class. I lack lots of skills and try to cover it up by being clever. I guess it works sometimes...
SHC

[erster]

Some folks appreciate the subtle interplay of complex flavors of a robust Burgundy coupled with a nicely ripened camembert or an Époisses de Bourgogne. . . .

. . .and some are content with a can of Miller Lite and a fistful of Cheetos.
So the children in Africa with an empty stomach should forgo Cheetos and Big Macs when that is whats avaliable when they are hungry? Got it. :rolleyes:Elites to the bone!:p

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

So the children in Africa with an empty stomach should forgo Cheetos and Big Macs when that is whats avaliable when they are hungry? Got it. :rolleyes:Elites to the bone!:p

Erster,
Your stuff belongs on the "Georgia-Boy Poetry" web site. Here everything has to be spelled out because of our limited artistic understanding.
Personally, my poetic uptake flamed out with "The Cremation of Dan McGhee".
You gotta' rhyme for "snotter"?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

snotter...

The Dutchman sailed the Zuider Zee
But few indeed were the bills he'd pay
But alas! for want of a decent snotter
His sprit went through the keel of his botter

daughter...

As his dragon ship cleft the ocean deep
Ragnar the Bold thought of Gunnar's dottir
But long before he his tryst could keep
His mast broke just above the snotter.

[switters]

now that we have redone the plywood thread again I think it important for ShaiL to read the

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89408&highlight=plytard

thread about epoxy, sort of a companion piece to plywood.

It comes down to a few questions that each person has to answer for themselves.

1. Are you building a boat to build or to kick about in.
2. Do you think your craftman skills are up to making a family hierloom your first time out. (mine were not)
3. do you feel the need to make a statement to other boat owners with your boat.
4. how often does it get used and will it live wet or dry.
There are others questions, but there is no right answer, except 42.

[erster]

Erster,
Your stuff belongs on the "Georgia-Boy Poetry" web site. Here everything has to be spelled out because of our limited artistic understanding.
Personally, my poetic uptake flamed out with "The Cremation of Dan McGhee".
You gotta' rhyme for "snotter"?
Envious I see. :cool: I am honored. MY artistic impressions of all stripes and methods are well represented on the waters and speak for themselves. The offer still stands for anyone willing to accept the challenge in the area of boats using whatever materials and methods, this also includes snotter rigged spritsails. I also noticed that there were a few of them even up in the northwest area plowing along with the supreme beings, the ones that also detest such trash rigs. I also chuckle when I read those types of scorns since the sprit rig has been around for centuries or so.

I ask once again why is it that the first or so reply that is posted on traditional boat threads of many newcomers on this very site is to seek out a qualified marine surveyor to see if the boat is worth anything and worth the added effort both in time and money to resurrect them from the dead?


How many plywood boats can also be built using updated methods and materials that would compare to the costs associated with numerous of boats of the traditional stripes thats of the same era since plywood boats have also been built? People can be on the water long before such rehabs are done and in many cases the rehabs rarely are finished without having to go back and freshen up a lot of the upgrades because of the length of time that the rehab has taken. I for one like traditional boats, but those days for numerous reasons are declining at a breakneck speed.


A hunger pain and a thirst is what exists by many people that purchase the magazine and to be out on the water is also what the Wooden Boat Magazine attempts to accomplish and to promote and this forum is an extention of that magazine. People should be able to come here and ask legitimate questions pertaining to all methods and boats without being scorned and slighted.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Snotter rigged spritsail:

http://www.thamesbarge.org.uk/barges/barges/may4.jpg

note advertisement in topsail - she's the Thames sailing barge "May", owned by Tate and Lyle, the UK's major sugar refiners - and incidentally Mr Tate gave his name to an art gallery or four...

Basically I think that it comes down to:

how long lived a boat do I want to build / can I build?

what proportion of the materials cost is represented by plywood?

I've built boats both ways.

[paladin]

People turn their noses up at plywood....and I had lotsa people amazed at the construction of Tana Mari.....It was strip planked cold moulded over.......cold molded using the very best solid mahogany 1/8th inch plywood in 3 inch strips with three layers of xynole/epoxy over...over 25 years later there are no problems with the hull...or the decks which are ply....with the same xynole /epoxy finish...

[peter radclyffe]

People turn their noses up at plywood....and I had lotsa people amazed at the construction of Tana Mari.....It was strip planked cold moulded over.......cold molded using the very best solid mahogany 1/8th inch plywood in 3 inch strips with three layers of xynole/epoxy over...over 25 years later there are no problems with the hull...or the decks which are ply....with the same xynole /epoxy finish...
i dont turn my nose up at ply, i've used it on about 70 boats, & i like using it, however i would be pleased if i never used epoxy again, because it makes me feel ill

[johnw]

Bob, in the words of Mr. P.L. ,,, But also that piece of crap is still sitting on a boat trailer :eek: ready at a moments notice to hit the water. Of course that could also be a thread of trashing less than perfect construction methods and construction materials since I also used big box materials to hold it together and house paint that is now three years old and good as new, and awaits the early demise. Poor kids of mine, I do feel sorry for them.:rolleyes:



But I must confess in the area of boat porn that I am bi-sexual and even transgender too which I thought was :cool: and in these days you know.:D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/DSC05246.jpg

...and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Bob Cleek]

ROFLMAO!!!! If a solid wood boat fastened with genuine hardware, approved by all the professed purist experts were so superior, we would never read a single thread on this forum about all the stressing over chipping paint, filling cracks, replugging the counterbored holes from plugs popping out and hire critical care nurses to pull 24 hour shifts in the springtime or upon relaunching to be able to use the damn thing for six or so weeks out of the year in most cases. We would also never read about these so called experts fixing anyone of these wonder machines which are considered derilicts by insurance companies and marinas either, forbidding these godsent vessels anywhere near them either..

We would never read or hear about making sure a professional surveyor should be consulted before making a purchase of the only boat that anyone should own, a solid wooden hull with cracking seams and cotton hanging from the joints and a full cost analysis of how much it will cost to make the purist's delight seaworthy for the family which usually scares off the newcomer to the pluses of being on the water messing about in boats.


Epoxy and plywood rules and many folks drool from the docks as a lot of folks launch their pieces of junk, while many armchair boat professionals sit in front of the computer screens of boat forums scorning many people that are also out on the water each weekend too that wonder into this place.

Actually, I agree completely.

Every construction method has its limitations and challenges. If you get right down to it, fibreglass has none of the problems you've cited. Neither do metal hulls. No question good boats can be built of many materials in many different ways. The point is, however, that boats built of the finest materials possible employing methods developed over a long span of evolution by craftsmen who know their trade will, on balance, generally, be better boats than those built of cheap inferior materials employing construction methods designed to save time and money at the expense of quality by hobbyists who haven't.

But, at any rate, if you are having fun doing whatever you do, go for it. Just don't try to convince anybody who knows much of anything about wooden boats that the plywood slathered with epoxy version of the hull Smalser posted above is even in the same zip code as Bob's example.

A battery driven Timex and a mechanical escapement Rolex, both keep time perfectly well and may even look much the same on your wrist. About the only difference between the two is that most people don't waste their time showing off their Timex. And many have no need to. Those who appreciate the satisfaction of wearing a Rolex have paid the price for that and are entitled to do so. They don't owe any apology to those who argue their Timex is better.

[erster]

Actually, I agree completely.

Every construction method has its limitations and challenges. If you get right down to it, fibreglass has none of the problems you've cited. Neither do metal hulls. No question good boats can be built of many materials in many different ways. The point is, however, that boats built of the finest materials possible employing methods developed over a long span of evolution by craftsmen who know their trade will, on balance, generally, be better boats than those built of cheap inferior materials employing construction methods designed to save time and money at the expense of quality by hobbyists who haven't.

But, at any rate, if you are having fun doing whatever you do, go for it. Just don't try to convince anybody who knows much of anything about wooden boats that the plywood slathered with epoxy version of the hull Smalser posted above is even in the same zip code as Bob's example.

A battery driven Timex and a mechanical escapement Rolex, both keep time perfectly well and may even look much the same on your wrist. About the only difference between the two is that most people don't waste their time showing off their Timex. And many have no need to.
I don't think I have ever made any claim remotely close to the idea that one is actually better especially when it comes to plywood hulls. There are huge advantages to plywood hulls over solid planked ones done the old fashion way for sure though. But also keep in mind that in the future its also quite possible that plywood boats will be the traditional boats in the future especially given that there are fewer people to pass along the trade that produced some of the real hulls being saved. Once upon a time there there were friendly establishments that assisted in the upkeep and upgrades of the well known pedigree hulls and even tools that were required in some of the repairs that we no longer have now.

We do not have water access and the population has also branched out to smaller hulls traveling and boating in remote areas. In my particular case, I have also attempted to save some of the working designs but forced to evolve a bit in the construction methods to allow me to boat safely as a weekend boater too, which can be of some risk if I built the same designs using the puriest mentality. Heck red lead, cotton and white oak is almost non-existant without weeks worth of struggle. I think this also applies to a lot of newcomers. Remember most public schools also evolve in their own subjects as new information and history rewrites itself too.

Sure there are PIECES of wood that can be used to replace original parts. But for the guy buying WB magazine which covers numerous kit boats of plywood and sells ads to plan sellers and then end up here only to read such tribe as goes on these types of threads is surely not beneficial. For me,? my past two threads have come with warning labels too.;)

[James McMullen]

. . . this also includes snotter rigged spritsails. I also noticed that there were a few of them even up in the northwest area plowing along with the supreme beings, the ones that also detest such trash rigs. I also chuckle when I read those types of scorns since the sprit rig has been around for centuries or so . . . . .

What the hell are you talking about? Are you referring to the pictures I posted of the Sail & Oar trip with the CWB folks or something? If so, whatever gave you the idea that sprit rigs were detested or scorned by us? :confused: Where did you read "those types of scorns"? Spritsails are downright common amongst sail & oar types here in the Pacific Northwest. I haven't a clue what you are talking about. :confused:

[pcford]

What the hell are you talking about? Are you referring to the pictures I posted of the Sail & Oar trip with the CWB folks or something? If so, whatever gave you the idea that sprit rigs were detested or scorned by us? :confused: Where did you read "those types of scorns"? Spritsails are downright common amongst sail & oar types here in the Pacific Northwest. I haven't a clue what you are talking about. :confused:

It was my conclusion that erster was referring to your thread. One must point out that erster cannot be depended upon to necessarily make much sense. Usually what you get out of him is a defensive rant; that is certainly the case on this thread.

Like I said earlier...much more heat than light.

[erster]

This along with many other occasions when discussions have come up with sprit rigs have provided plenty of the narrow point of view. A quick click and more if I was interested.....

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87068




There aren't as many people around who know how to shape a four cornered sail these days. However, I think some of the problem may indeed be with the way you are holding the sail up in the air. I've had sprit rigs too, and have had mediocre performance with them compared to my current favorite small boat rig, the Balance Lug.

The many problems with the sprit rig are thrown into even sharper relief compared to the modern Balance Lug which is more handy and easier to set up, strike or reef underway, self-vanging, docile in a jibe, very tweak-able to optimise for different conditions or points of sail and when set correctly unbelievably weatherly for a sail with more or less the same shape and size as a sprit. I've had five different spritsail rigged boats myself. . . . .wouldn't use it again. Jibs and stayed masts are enormously less convenient than the unstayed rigs for actual sail & oar boats where you need to be able to get your rig up and down while out on the water. You might be able to change your rig to a lug with a little help from a sailmaker. Todd Bradshaw?

The centerboard on your Good Little Skiff may be part of the problem too. Does it have any shape to it at all, or is it just a flat board? An actual foil section centerboard will make any boat more weatherly.


Your argument with Slider included a leadoff line:


Yeah! What do those stupid experts know anyways, huh? They think there so smart just because they have, like, all this knowledge and experience and stuff!

[James McMullen]

As I think about it, I suppose that maybe he has confused my own personal preference for a different kind of old-fashioned, four-cornered sail that has been around for centuries (the lugsail) as some sort of attack or scornful detestation of the spritsail. A persecution complex, perhaps? Where on earth could he possibly have gotten the idea that sprits'ls are considered "trash rigs" by traditional wooden boat fans?

So I will repeat myself:
I prefer the Lug to the Sprit. In my own experience, I have been able to achieve greater performance with the Lug on my boats. During that recent trip with all the pictures, my personal opinion was once again reinforced as the two fastest boats under sail were the the two lug-rigged boats, and my own boat was substantially faster to windward than any of the others. I was able to keep sailing in winds so light that everyone else had turned to oars, which was nice since I was rowing solo where everybody else was rowing double-banked. I don't loathe spritsails, but I think that there are better ways to achieve maximum performance with the same amount of sticks and string.



Yeah! What do those stupid experts know anyways, huh? They think there so smart just because they have, like, all this knowledge and experience and stuff! This above quote is an example of irony, a humorous statement, complete with ironic intentional mispellings. I am actually quite in favor of expertise based on knowledge and experience and stuff, being the elitist pig that I am.

[pcford]

[quote=James McMullen;2173337] A persecution complex, perhaps? /quote]

bingo.

erster seems to seek out posts in which to take personal offense, even though none was planned.

Rather narcissistic and defensive way to go through life.

[JimD]

There is no room in this forum for personal attacks. Please take them elsewhere.

[john welsford]

25 years ago I built an experimental design from cca treated exterior grade pine plywood, I had to carefully wash all the gluelines with hot water and bleach then let it dry so the epoxy would stick, but other than that and the fact that the ply did not bend fair the boat went together ok. Its still around today and the current owner takes great pride in telling people that it was me who built it, I wish it would fall apart so the embarrassment of a quick and dirty build would dissappear.
The point I'm trying to make is that some exterior grade plywoods are made to survive and will hang together for a long time. These plywoods are fine for a boat that is intended to be utilitarian rather than an improvement to the scenery.

My advice is check that the glue is waterproof, and paint it, paint it, paint it and it should last a lot longer than some of the pundits predict.

John Welsford


Can I build a boat, that most of the time parks on the shore and is used once a week for several hours, with low grade playwood ?
How low ?
How would it affect her life span ?

[pcford]

I hope to salvage something out of this thread...I think there are some things to discuss...can't do it right now. I have a meeting with a client.

I will say that it was never my intention to insult the plywood boys...merely to say that doing things that way does not stir me in the least. Some...many...have taken this as a personal insult...and none was intended.

[peter radclyffe]

There is no room in this forum for personal attacks. Please take them elsewhere.
we live in times of great change in wooden boatbuilding, where epoxy has replaced skill, most people building cannot build or restore a boat without epoxy, they dont want to learn how to, nor do they need to know how, the gap filling & skill reducing quantities of the eighth wonder of the wooden boatbuilding world are washing over us like a chemical quagmire, from which we may never recover our senses , here's tom with the weather

[kenjamin]

I think much of epoxy's bad rap is due to mixing too much, filling gaps that are too big, letting it get on your skin, not wiping off excess when it's possible and other poor practices of which I am terribly guilty. After seeing Dudley Dix's Paper Jet at the '07 Mystic Wooden Boat Show, I'm convinced there are performance advantages to using epoxy correctly so that is what I would like to learn to do. If, however, I could develop a market for hand crafted traditional fastened boats around where I live.... sure I would rather just work without the goo. But that is a huge "if".

[JimD]

we live in times of great change in wooden boatbuilding, where epoxy has replaced skill, most people building cannot build or restore a boat without epoxy, they dont want to learn how to, nor do they need to know how, the gap filling & skill reducing quantities of the eighth wonder of the wooden boatbuilding world are washing over us like a chemical quagmire, from which we may never recover our senses...

All true, Peter. Since epoxy isn't a forum member please feel free to attack it all you like.

[Bob Cleek]

If, however, I could develop a market for hand crafted traditional fastened boats around where I live.... sure I would rather just work without the goo. But that is a huge "if".

There is a BIG market for hand crafted traditionally fastened boats most anywhere near the water. It isn't "if," it's "why not?" These guys are doing well cranking 'em out... just a few to get your nose wide:

http://www.northbayboatworks.com/BoatsDelivered/Herreshoff/ElseFamily.jpg

http://www.northbayboatworks.com/BoatsDelivered/Herreshoff/Herreshoff1.jpg

http://www.northbayboatworks.com/BoatsDelivered/Tevere/InWater.jpg

http://www.northbayboatworks.com/BoatsDelivered/Swampscott/DoryTest.jpg

http://www.northbayboatworks.com/BoatsDelivered/Claire/Clair_finished-1.jpg


"North Bay Boat Works is dedicated to the use of traditional methods and materials. All of our boats are constructed in the time honored way of plank on frame, both lapstrake and carvel styles. We believe that it is important to hand pick the highest quality timbers. For that reason we prefer to work with local sawmills and harvest our own hardwoods, mostly from windfallen trees here in Northern California."

"NBBW is dedicated to providing affordable new wooden boats and working with our customers ideas and budgets to make possible construction of either motor, sail, or oar powered boats. We will build to existing designs or custom design a boat for you based on your uses and budget."

"We are equipped to handle all stages of building from design to lofting, harvesting of timber to construction, to out fitting your boat for cruising Stop by and visit our shop and talk about your dreams of owning your own brand new wooden boat, or send e-mail to northbayboatworks@yahoo.com to start the conversation."

http://www.northbayboatworks.com/index.html

[L.W. Baxter]

There is a false dichotomy often stated or implied on this forum: that people either build traditional plank-on-frame for quality, or plywood/composite for ease of build or economy. Neither part of that statement is simply true, or even particularly useful as a stereotype.

There are cheap and basic kinds of traditional builds, and expensive, complicated ones. Likewise for plywood and various composite constructions. Plywood is chosen by many beginners for the ease of access, construction, or use, but that hardly means that boat designs employing plywood are generally inferior in performance or construction to a traditionally planked boat of similar use. Quite the opposite is sometimes very obviously the case.

A personal example: for my most recent and largest backyard project, my final two choices for the build were a 25' Eldredge-McInnes Bassboat or a 26' Calkins Bartender. I was interested in trying my hand at the plank-on-frame Bassboat, and did not feel it was outside of my abilities or my bank account. But I chose to build the plywood-on-frame Bartender, because the finished boat would be better performance-wise, especially for my uses; stiffer, lighter, and perfectly happy high and dry on a trailer between launchings. For me, the traditionally planked bassboat was an impractical choice, not only more expensive to build, operate, and maintain, but slower and less efficient, and arguably less capable in dire straits. And the final dollar value of one type of amature-built boat compared to another is really utterly lacking importance. Neither one is likely to be a Rolex, and even if it is, it won't be valued like one. The name and reputation of the builder is the primary indicator of dollar value, not the construction method. Anybody in the Pacific NW can attest to the success of stitch-and-glue Devlin Boats...a much larger enterpri$e than the little specialty boat yard cited above. At any rate, an amature shouldn't even think twice about the issue, in my opinion.

My story illustrates what is quite often the true dichotomy between traditional wooden boats and those employing more modern materials and methods: on one hand, for one's uses an impractical, inefficient boat with a special feel and attendant bragging rights, versus, on the other hand, a better performing and more practical boat that some will say is "not wood". Whatever.

[peter radclyffe]

All true, Peter. Since epoxy isn't a forum member please feel free to attack it all you like. i use it all the time, but it makes me feel so ill, i'd rather not use it

[Bob Cleek]

Maybe "wood" isn't the defining criteria. Maybe we should get in the habit of saying "traditional wood boat" and "innovative wood boat" or something like that. Actually, WB magazine has to take some of the heat for the controversy. They generally print a lot of really tasty classic "boat porn" to get people's juices flowing, and then sell 'em cardboard cut out plans for plywood and googe boats. Our cousins across the pond never tried to straddle the materials divide. For them it was "Classic Boat" or nothing at all!

[Lew Barrett]

Anybody without the experience to know the difference who buys a 35, 40 foot or larger boat around here and actually wants to use it as a family cruiser in the northwest is strongly advised to avoid the recommendation to not have it surveyed first. That recommendation is without merit. A single month's moorage will cost more than the surveyor's fee. The trick to the value of the survey is to use a good surveyor.

Moorage is impossible to obtain anywhere in the region without insurance, and insurance can't be obtained without a valid survey. you might as well get it before you buy the boat. Anybody who wants to argue with that needs to respond in plain English without sputtering or vituperative.

[pcford]

There is a false dichotomy often stated or implied on this forum: that people either build traditional plank-on-frame for quality, or plywood/composite for ease of build or economy.

Mr. Baxter and Cleekster....good thoughtful posts both...thanks...maybe we can have a meaningful discussion.

Mr. Baxter...your post anticipated what I am going to say and you did it well. I do think there is a dichotomy between classic and cheap and simple boatbuilding.

Last fall I was present at the launching of a boat I had worked on. It was a late 40s Gold Cup racer with a 1600hp WWII airplane engine. The boat did over 100mph that day. Normally when you splash a boat...the worst that can happen is leak from an empty screw hole. The boat in all likelihood is going to float. This boat was meant to go fast...very fast. I had applied the 3/16" hull sides and 1/4" deck...The 3/16 plywood covered a compound curved tumblehome side from stem to stern.

If the boat had come apart while I watched it...(all puckered up on the beach) it likely could have killed the owner. The boat ran fine. I was honored to have the client put his trust...and his life...in my hands.

When I was working on the boat I was mindful of the day that I would be watching the boat take its first lap. I am not the greatest boat restoration guy there is, but I did the job as well as I possibly could. Just one sloppy move and the day could have ended far differently. And like the guy said, the stairway to hell begins with just one little step in the wrong direction.

When I see guys trying to do cheapy boats...it is really foreign to me...I just can't understand it. They really sometimes seem to be trying to see what they can get away with...this is the polar opposite of what I did with the hydroplane and I think more traditional boat restorers operate.

So I do think there is a dichotomy. It's really hard to see otherwise.

Mr. Baxter, your points about inexpensive traditional boats was spot on. A boat does not have to be all teak, varnish and chrome to be a traditional boat...I am thinking of what we call in the NW a flatiron skiff. A flat bottom rowing boat.

On the other hand we have the guys that build boats as quickly and as cheaply as possible. I can see the thinking...they just want to get on the water. However, I do think they are led astray by designers that tell them that traditional boats are too hard...and they don't have confidence in their abilites to do something more complicated.

I repeat again...I am NOT NOT NOT criticizing those that chose to build this way. Those that suggested I was killed electrons needlessly. My point is that kind of construction holds zero attraction for me.

The 800lb gorilla is the fact that there are two distinct camps that WB seeks to service. And to a large extent, these camps are mutually exclusive. Many of the discussion here feature proponents of either camp simply talking past each other...It's like they are not even talking the same language...which I guess they ain't.

Cleekster...you made a good point comparing WB with the British Classic Boat. It's all traditional boats all the time.

This thread with its raging assaults, is an excellent example of people not understanding the others' position.

Sometimes I think that maybe there show be separate forum sections for traditional and for simple boatbuilding.

Mr. Baxter...you did suggest ways that one could dip in either category; a good illustration.

Anyway...that's my piece...more or less...a bit "philosophical" maybe; I hope I made a point.

[ShagRock]

Posted by PcFord:
Sometimes I think that maybe there show be separate forum sections for traditional and for simple boatbuilding.

Now, that's takes the cake! Most hilarious thing I ever heard!

[ShagRock]

Shail ..If it twas me, along with the information from boaters here, I'd check out the small boat builders in Haifa or those on the shining Sea of Galilea..long, long history of boat building where you live!

[pcford]

Now, that's takes the cake! Most hilarious thing I ever heard!

Why? Perhaps you are just making a random comment...

A lot of time and space is wasted with people talking past each other. Your post is a good example. Maybe there is a better way...my point is that unless there is an attempt to see the other "side" perhaps it would be better to work in our own vineyards.

I hope this does not descend into another flurry of name-calling. That's exactly what I want to avoid.

[ShagRock]

Why? Perhaps you are just making a random comment...No! It wasn't random at all! It was directed at you! What's wrong with being traditional and simple..they can sail in the same boat, can't they?

[pcford]

No! It wasn't random at all! It was directed at you! What's wrong with being traditional and simple..they can sail in the same boat, can't they?

You didn't read my post...I thought so.

Bye Shag.

[ShagRock]

Posted by pcford:
Mr. Baxter, your points about inexpensive traditional boats was spot on. A boat does not have to be all teak, varnish and chrome to be a traditional boat...I am thinking of what we call in the NW a flatiron skiff. A flat bottom rowing boat.

On the other hand we have the guys that build boats as quickly and as cheaply as possible. I can see the thinking...they just want to get on the water. However, I do think they are led astray by designers that tell them that traditional boats are too hard...and they don't have confidence in their abilites to do something more complicated.


I read your post. And the fisher boys would gladly toss you over the wharf! Most never had designers to afford. Don't sound like you have much respect for that.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Coming at this from another angle, some of the finest mastepieces of wooden boatbuilding have been built with plywood and epoxy.

I am thinking of the top flight restricted class racing dinghies of the 1970's, before carbon fibre and kevlar came in. At that time, wood was the lightest, stiffest, material to build a top raceboat from. These boats are beautiful to look at and full of superb detailing.

Some are still built - here's a new Keith Callaghan designed Merlin-Rocket being built by Lawrie Smart, in 2009:

http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/Merlins/Haz170-09%20290006.jpg

http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/Merlins/hazardous.htm

Don't tell me this isn't craftsmanship!

And off she goes:

http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/Merlins/Wicked%20005a.jpg

[P.L.Lenihan]

Same craftmenship,different skill set, stunning beauty!

Peter

[erster]

Good, I see a bit more has weighed in with other condesending responses, so let me add more plain english dealing with plank on frame boats in the 21 century. I also applaud those able to keep them afloat both from the standpoint of financial and the time and also lives in regions that are favorable to these types of hulls. FWIW, thats probably one percent tops to the overall numbers of boaters and lusters of boats in the 21 century too. Plywood has expanded the avenue to allow many people off the water to experience the enjoyment that most have enjoyed while living also along the coastal areas of this country and do not or cannot afford a moorage of a big and fancy dock. Some just do not need a boat of size either that requires a dock or to sit in the water either.

Sure there are plank on frame in small craft that reside on a trailer. But you cannot reside a boat of any size for extended time and accomadations on a trailer unless you build with alternative methods and materials which covers the plywood material. I can attest and can take you on a real wooden craft that does just that in the midrange and damn sure proud of it while some feel the need to view this as an inferior way of building.

I smile all the way to the boat ramps and in the water and return home safely even without a bilge pump running constantly after the boat has sit for three months on a trailer. And this boat is not lapstrake construction either, but plank on frame butted together. :):):cool: Heck the only bilge pump I carry is a rubber hose diaphram siphon one for rainwater of any splash that may enter into the boat..:cool:

Mooring is not required ever to keep a plywood boat afloat. Mooring is required though for boats that are too large for a trailer whether it be in a marina or on a ball. If you tie your boat up at a dock, you will need to have a boat that is seaworthy. You will also need to know that the boat will not sink if the bilge pimps quit. Marina owners, the ones left along the waterfront are not allowing these hulls to hang a line on a pole and complete articles are also written to support this comment too. Threads dealing with obtaining inisurance across this land in particular are a common occurance here.


A struggle even with a survey and thousands of hours of work and expenditure to keep insurance on the vessel and to even increase your coverage much less get anyone to fix the boat. These are hardcore facts and well represented by the fewer traditional workers posting here. Some have seen the light and are creating alternative boats using ingenious and inovative ideas with concrete results. Many here seem not to understand or care to know the difference in being frugal and being cheap, only the interest of attacking alternatives using preconcieved ideas, kinda narrowmindedness. .Sure its quite possible for folks to spend their lives pushing pieces of sandpaper and become absolute experts and create a shine that allows you to read a newspaper in it. But this does not make you any smarter than anyone else no difference than any other guy that wants to own a boat and to be on the water. This is really no difference than the guys that work on an assembly line putting the same screw or hardware on a certain type of vehicle does not make those guys an auto engineer either.

Of course folks here are being tasking to task here. . In many cases some of these folks are spending hours upon hours on the water while frustrated others sit and belittle these folks for not applying their own approach narrow as they be before venturing out into the shark infested waters though.:cool: I also challenge anyone to inspect my seams for a huge chunks of glue and or bedding. Oh lets also address fasteners too. I even read just this past week that one of our puriests have also professed to be using stainless steel fasteners on upgrades after years of preaching that the only thing that should ever be used are the squarehead bronze fasteners even after examples have been presented to rebuke the notion.:eek:


boat's ceiling. On Chris Crafts these were bronze ovals; I replace these with stainless Phillips ovals


The aged out traditional boats also need in numerous cases a very large amount of work unlike many of the large plywood boats. A cold moulded built plywood hull is almost guaranteed to receive insurance and a place at most any dock for long term unlike a leaking and aged plank without unlimited amounts of money as addressed many times over. Only in certain areas will you find that a mooring at a dock long term for even a liveaboard whether it be temporary or long term for traditional planked cotton seamed hull without huge prequalifying.


These dockages and moorings are also declining in regulated and congested areas with declining dockage avaliable anyway. If you leave the security of your home base and attempt to go anywhere further south, reports from that area alone on this very forum will find results not favorable for traditional types hulls.

Bob Cleek writes on another thread also dealing with traditional boats. I do wonder why. If you think that a traditionally planked hull is in demand, why does Wooden Boat not continue to highlight and feature these hulls for adoption? We also right have had on this forum an individual OEM I believe that spent untold hours attempting to give away traditionally planked hulls sitting on the hard many that would not qualify for a trailer ride in most cases to be transported from their resting place to your own if you rescued them from their impending death with a bulldozer without a large amount of shoring up.

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2173575#post2173575



It may be a good boat and all, but I must be getting old. A Reul Parker design from the 1990's just doesn't sound (or from the photos, look) like a "classic" to me! LOL I guess WB has just about exhausted all the "barn finds" it has dug up over the years and is not just featuring boats that are worth saving, "classic" or not.


Plywood is here to stay and plywood boaters and boat builders are also. If you own a plank on frame boat get use to being along side of more epoxy plywood hulls while you also scorn the froze snot ones too. Wooden Boat knows which side of the bread that is buttered and so should many here. Some here should also use a different approach a friendlier one to the replies to the builders and prospective builders.
There is nothing on the cheap in any of my boats either, only non-traditional ways if thats possible using materials that reside in numerous time honored hulls which includes western red cedar, white cedar and poly type caulks even though the labels are a bit different. If anyone cares to read the fine print of many products these days you may also save you bunches of money and still get the desired results. Some are just too hardheaded to do so. Paints and varnishes, yet another area which is highly subjective to criticism but yet another area that seems to be forbidden to be discussed without the usual suspects posting till all the substance has been beaten out of the thread. You darn tootin, some here could learn and still not compromise the intergrity of a boat hull if these folks would open their own minds instead of being jealous of others people sucesses.

I also am reminded of a fine cabinet maker turned boat builder, T.N.Simmons working along the era of the Lymans, Chris Crafts, Richardsons and so many others too numerous to list. His boats were economical and some are still around even with some issues no different than what we find in the same era of plank on frame. Boats are not forever and people will never like the same type of hull and method. Why not reply to the topic using the same effort that it takes for your diversions from the issues?

[James McMullen]

Ah, I see that some simply have no taste for the run of a well found paragraph, properly lined out with care on a framework of traditional grammatic structure, and caulked with properly spelled words, either. I swear, Minoan Linear A is easier to follow at times.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_SbGSSRU5LeE/SML1cTD2lhI/AAAAAAAAA6s/Lj4-a2-VcxI/s400/Linear+A+end+of+Late+Minoan+IB+ca+1450+BCE.jpg

However, I think I've deciphered the gist of it which seems to be, "Yew think yer better'n me, college boy? Mah boats is jest as good as your'n!"

PS: I like plywood and epoxy just fine, even house paint where it's appropriate--but I don't try to delude myself that it's just the same as traditional construction. There's a proper time and a place for all of it.

[Lew Barrett]

I have no idea how I might pick through this if I were new and truly needed some sound advice:

As it stands, the caustic arguments, with nasty ad hominem attacks have diminished the value of any data correct or otherwise, to new people coming aboard. Without exception, anybody who has issued ad hominem attacks and pretends to stand above the fray is kidding themselves. Friendly, open discourse with give and take is at the heart of the value here and it is even possible to be wrong without being bad. And one can be wrong about some things and right about others without having the value of what one has been correct about diminished along with that which is in error. In that case correction with dignity is all that is required


For different reasons it can be hard to read and really understand some of the replies here. Plank on frame is alive and well, and the point there is that if you like old boats and the styles they come in, there's little you can do but restore the survivors using traditional methods. I am not a shipwright, but year on year of ownership and interest has taught me that if I or somebody else does work on my own vessel, I want it done with the sort of materials and approaches that maintain the qualities that made my boat desirable to me in the first place. Inferior materials or methods employed in my boat always result in disappointment. Ply wood has it's uses even on my old tub though it's not an appropriate material for general repairs. Period.

So it's horses for courses. I have no axe to grind between plywood or batten seam or carvel construction, epoxy or not, but we all know damn well that the punishment should fit the crime and the materials and methods selected for the desired end.

On the one hand how, all else being equal, how one can argue with the general advice to use the best and most suitable materials for the job is beyond me. It's just sound general advice. If you can find equally suitable materials for less dough, well that's just swell and please do share and people are then free to select for themselves based on their own criteria.

. This thread would have been more useful, and I myself might have learned from it if someone in the know explained just exactly how to grade manufactured materials, and which grades were useful for what purposes and techniques, and how to avoid buying real crap that was mislabeled or misrepresented or how to recognize those products that took advantage of the rules in an unfair way.

Good luck, Shail! And welcome aboard; I hope you stay to get the benefit that can be derived here.

[JimD]

i use it all the time, but it makes me feel so ill, i'd rather not use it

I use it all the time, too. On good plywood and bad. All the things you said about the lost art of traditional boat building also apply to me. I get tired of epoxy, too. It doesn't make me ill, but it isn't much fun to work with once the novelty wears off. Still, for my purposes I can make a very handy vessel from plywood and epoxy.

[erster]

Ah, I see that some simply have no taste for the run of a well found paragraph, properly lined out with care on a framework of traditional grammatic structure, and caulked with properly spelled words, either. I swear, Minoan Linear A is easier to follow at times.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_SbGSSRU5LeE/SML1cTD2lhI/AAAAAAAAA6s/Lj4-a2-VcxI/s400/Linear+A+end+of+Late+Minoan+IB+ca+1450+BCE.jpg

However, I think I've deciphered the gist of it which seems to be, "Yew think yer better'n me, college boy? Mah boats is jest as good as your'n!"

PS: I like plywood and epoxy just fine, even house paint where it's appropriate--but I don't try to delude myself that it's just the same as traditional construction. There's a proper time and a place for all of it.

Yep, you read the post right. A boat in the water floating on its own lines and reused at a moments notice for many years , is worth thousands of N.A. plans and years of arguing and looking for the "Right Stuff" which has yet to be created or invented. I see at least one college boy gets it now.:cool:

At least I don't have to worry about having at least three of the regulars that visit my replies as guests aboard risking their life and limbs.:cool: FWIW, your thread on boats was a nice one.:) Now to the generic primer again this am. Now all we need is another Behr versus Epiphanes varnish thread this month will be complete. Cheers

[L.W. Baxter]

...A lot of time and space is wasted with people talking past each other...

Yes, and this thread was started by someone asking about using low-grade plywood as opposed to marine-grade plywood, and that is what the discussion was about until a couple of the usual suspects made it a referendum on building with plywood of any sort. My own last post adressed that tangent. Considering how the tangent and the tirades that followed began, you might be a little less mistified by defensive attitudes, eh?

As for the original question, I posted a picture in my first post to this thread of a Swampscott Dory I framed and planked with 5-ply, 1/2" exterior grade fir plywood. I launched the boat in 2004 and have used it extensively. It floats very well, has no rot, and hasn't even shown any signs of "checking", which fir ply is notorious for. It lives on a trailer, undercover, and will last as long as my willingness to care for it continues.

That said, if I had it to do over, I would probably build the boat with mahogany or solid fir frames and 3/8" okuome marine plywood planking. That would make a superior boat, being of lighter weight, and the frames would require less attention to keep them sound. But, I don't feel that a boat built in such a way would be less rot prone, necessarily, and certainly no more structurally sound. Actually, half-inch exterior fir is about twice as shock resistant than 3/8" okuome; my Swampscott is probably one of the stoutest and stiffest you will ever see; I have no fear of it "failing" in a seaway because I didn't use marine grade plywood. And I don't really trust okuome plywood to be any more rot resistant than hemlock-cored fir plywood. The species of wood involved are not terribly different in their rot-resistance qualities. I honestly don't have any serious regrets about my choice of materials in that build. It's an excellent boat.

At any rate, the deciding factor in the longevity of any craft of any material is care and maintanance. This goes even for those immortal solid glass hulls one can see sitting derelict along the shore and in fields and blackberry patches all over the developed world. Once any boat is abandoned from use and care, the extent to which its hull material degrades is more or less a moot point.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Heading gently back towards the actual topic, ShaiL asked about building a Heron dinghy. This is an 11ft Jack Holt hard chine design from the early Fifties, originally framed, with keelson and chines, which has been re-worked for stitch and glue as an alternative construction.

[johnw]

ShaiL, have you seen this link yet?

http://www.glen-l.com/wood-plywood/wp-index.html

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

snotter...

The Dutchman sailed the Zuider Zee
But few indeed were the bills he'd pay
But alas! for want of a decent snotter
His sprit went through the keel of his botter

daughter...

As his dragon ship cleft the ocean deep
Ragnar the Bold thought of Gunnar's dottir
But long before he his tryst could keep
His mast broke just above the snotter.

All the Dutchmen I know sail the hoogars. Snotter don't rhyme with hoogars.
What am I to do?

[slidercat]

The argument that cheap construction "gets people on the water" is pure bunk. In this day and age (like with classic wooden boats forty years ago), if simply getting a boat you can sail inexpensively is your primary objective, it is far, far, more cost effective to simply buy a decent used fibreglass boat.

This is certainly true if you believe the only boats worth having are monohulls.

[slidercat]

Thank you guys, I have learnt a lot from this thread.

Shail, one thing you should have learned is that for some folks, boat building is more fun than boat sailing, and for others, the opposite is true. And there's nothing wrong with either viewpoint.

[Bob Cleek]

"Plywood has expanded the avenue to allow many people off the water to experience the enjoyment that most have enjoyed while living also along the coastal areas of this country and do not or cannot afford a moorage of a big and fancy dock."

Erster, that's perhaps the BEST reason why plywood shouldn't be allowed for boat construction of any kind. It encourages the riff-raff.

There are just too damn many no-class low-class idiots out there on the water these days. Time was, owing a boat, any boat, meant you had to put in your time learning something about boats. Commonly, kids learned from their dads and were in the game long before they were old enough to own their own boat. Then, they started small and worked up. A boat was expensive and time consuming and as a result there were a lot fewer of them and those that existed, as a general rule, were better built because of it. It just didn't pay to build a cheap boat. Consequently, there was a certain social status accorded owning a boat. Boating for pleasure was a gentleman's game. (And, as so well illustrated by gentlemen like L.Francis Herreshoff, writing about boats demanded a certain literary expertise as well.)

Then along came plastic, which is what they make pop-em-out fibreglass boats and credit cards out of. Suddenly, every jackass with the impulse ran out and bought himself something that "allowed him to experience the enjoyment of boating." Pays yer money, turn the key, and punch out! (And stitch 'n gloo plywood for those who couldn't afford fibreglass!) Suddenly, there was a shortage of marina berths and rates shot sky high. Those who couldn't afford a berth started hauling ever larger boats up and down the highways on trailers which in between times blighted the driveways of suburbia. Long lines at the launching ramps, peopled by drunken tyros attempting the intracacies of backing with a trailer full of boat and a belly full of beer became the norm. Then, too, previously rare serious injuries became a regular feature of "yachting."

http://www.guildlandis.com/images/boat-accident.jpg

(An aptly named vessel if ever there was one!)

One will respect and value more something they had to work at attaining. There are too damn many people who don't respect the water, boats or anybody else out there these days. Anything that "makes it easier for people to get out on the water" isn't to be encouraged.

(Now, "Let the games begin!" or as JoeCSOH would say, "Bwaaaaaaa!")

[erster]

I will get back to you Bob when I get that bucket of paint that you just spilled on me off of me.;)

[Bob Cleek]

ROTFLMAO! I thought that'd get a rise outta ya. Have you ever read some of L.F. Herreshoff's rants about the "low class" Democrats polluting the yachting game and how the New Deal was going to be the ruination of yachting?

[peter radclyffe]

There is a BIG market for hand crafted traditionally fastened boats most anywhere near the water. It isn't "if," it's "why not?" These guys are doing well cranking 'em out... just a few to get your nose wide:

http://www.northbayboatworks.com/BoatsDelivered/Herreshoff/ElseFamily.jpg

http://www.northbayboatworks.com/BoatsDelivered/Herreshoff/Herreshoff1.jpg

http://www.northbayboatworks.com/BoatsDelivered/Tevere/InWater.jpg

http://www.northbayboatworks.com/BoatsDelivered/Swampscott/DoryTest.jpg

http://www.northbayboatworks.com/BoatsDelivered/Claire/Clair_finished-1.jpg


"North Bay Boat Works is dedicated to the use of traditional methods and materials. All of our boats are constructed in the time honored way of plank on frame, both lapstrake and carvel styles. We believe that it is important to hand pick the highest quality timbers. For that reason we prefer to work with local sawmills and harvest our own hardwoods, mostly from windfallen trees here in Northern California."

"NBBW is dedicated to providing affordable new wooden boats and working with our customers ideas and budgets to make possible construction of either motor, sail, or oar powered boats. We will build to existing designs or custom design a boat for you based on your uses and budget."

"We are equipped to handle all stages of building from design to lofting, harvesting of timber to construction, to out fitting your boat for cruising Stop by and visit our shop and talk about your dreams of owning your own brand new wooden boat, or send e-mail to northbayboatworks@yahoo.com to start the conversation."

http://www.northbayboatworks.com/index.html
lovely inspirational work

[pcford]

There is a BIG market for hand crafted traditionally fastened boats most anywhere near the water. It isn't "if," it's "why not?"






Well, I don't think there is a BIG market..there is a market. There's a guy up on Granville Island in Vancouver who is doing ok. Then there is Eric Hvalsoe here in town.

These boats can cost 15 to 20k; that serves as a stumbling block for a lot of people.

I suppose one could say that it is better to have an exquisite bit of craftmanship rather than a larger plastic boat...but unfortunately that is not where our culture is at the moment.

[erster]

ROTFLMAO! I thought that'd get a rise outta ya. Have you ever read some of L.F. Herreshoff's rants about the "low class" Democrats polluting the yachting game and how the New Deal was going to be the ruination of yachting?
HEHE! I wonder what he would now say about the junk in even the new planked hulls, cypress being just one domestic species thats rarely more than just pulpwood now. While some are stuck in time,;):p our wood supplies, sources of supplies and regulations of cutting have moved somewhat back in time or must I say moved foward thanks to many supporters of the Democrats. you know.:p Remember dmede and his challenge to make wide boards out of narrow ones? Where is he lately with pictures on the water? Hint, hint...

While we lust for the oily dust of honduras mahogany, Burma Teak, clear White Oak, 24 foot clear fir, 40 feet real to life Yellow Pine with the grain wicking sap, all that created boat hulls from the past century and more, I challenge anyone to provide us with the same quality in woods off the shelf across large areas of the country. While we can reproduce traditional shaped hulls, the "guts" will never be the same in the interest of saving the rainforrests you know.

Look at your own state and the even the redwood which created sandblasted signs and siding and fencing. How do you think some of the businesses feel about having to use composite boards now to make a sandblasted sign?;) Or the sawyers that are now out of work that are unable to even thin out tracts of timber without fighting city hall. I can make a huge laundry lists of changes that have taken place. Heck even plywood that comes with labels that depict genuine and quality materials is not worth even the ink that goes into the stamp now. We play our cards, take our chances if we want to be on the water. As far as kids paying their dues, I got plenty of evidences of that with mine in diapers. So when they are burdened with my spinoffs, they will also wear the earned stripes, thank you.:p Wanta talk kids on boats too? We are still boating and refuse to grow up, some still wearing diapers too. :cool:

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Boom's too low...;)

[L.W. Baxter]

Boom's too low...;)

And my head is too big. Whattayagunnado?

[Lewisboats]

That's why they call it a BOOM! http://www.bestanimations.com/Military/Explosions/Explode-02-june.gif

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Whattayagunnado?


Try an un-historical gunter lug rig? :)

[erster]

One for the naysayers, especially the Boobs:p,,,, If you walked up to this boat with it sitting in one of those expensive slips at a high price marina after the boat is trimmed out, I guarantee you that you would never know that this white cedar cabin sides is glued to plywood with the lemonade called epoxy. With just two coats of primer, primer that high profile restorers right here on this forum uses religiously, the planks will print through and highlight the materials even after another six or so coats and the topcoats as the finish materials age. This is a wooden boat without the excessive work of a traditionally planked wooden boat. But in some folks minds, its an inferior piece of crap and still sit on the sidelines talking about what is proper and correct. I say that the only correct boat there has ever been built is one that floats on its lines, and gives you back exactly what you ask it to and brings you home safely with a smile to the dock of lurkers and gawkers looking at the space aliens.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/DSC05610.jpg

Look closel to the seams which will never open up especially if the boat is maintained every five to six years after abuse of the elements. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/DSC05611-1.jpg

[Bob Cleek]

"While we lust for the oily dust of honduras mahogany, Burma Teak, clear White Oak, 24 foot clear fir, 40 feet real to life Yellow Pine with the grain wicking sap, all that created boat hulls from the past century and more, I challenge anyone to provide us with the same quality in woods off the shelf across large areas of the country. While we can reproduce traditional shaped hulls, the "guts" will never be the same in the interest of saving the rainforrests you know."

Those woods NEVER were "off the shelf" to begin with. If you read old boatbuilding articles, you'll read the same thing written a hundred years ago... "Can't get wood like ya used to..." You see, a guy goes out into the woods to cut some wood for a boat. He cuts the first tree he comes to that meets his requirements. So... the next guy looking for boat wood necessarily has to walk just a little farther into the woods, past the stump of the trees cut by the guys who came before him, and he'll bitch that "ya just can't get good boat wood like ya used to..."

With the exception of woods that have pretty much gone commercially extinct, like some of the Spanish cedars, new world mahoganies, and Burmese teak, it's all still growing, you just have to "go a little farther into the forest" for it. How many times have guys posted in here that they can't find "good wood" at Home Depot or Lowe's. COME ON! Nobody can find good wood in a place like that. They sell medium to low grade crap for people who don't know (or know, but don't need) better. On the other hand, if you take the time to connect with a local sawyer and have the patience to plan ahead, I think folks will pretty much find that local boatbuilding wood as good as, if not better, than what was used two or three generations ago is still obtainable, often at very reasonable prices... just don't expect to run down to the local big box store and find it.

[erster]

"While we lust for the oily dust of honduras mahogany, Burma Teak, clear White Oak, 24 foot clear fir, 40 feet real to life Yellow Pine with the grain wicking sap, all that created boat hulls from the past century and more, I challenge anyone to provide us with the same quality in woods off the shelf across large areas of the country. While we can reproduce traditional shaped hulls, the "guts" will never be the same in the interest of saving the rainforrests you know."

Those woods NEVER were "off the shelf" to begin with. If you read old boatbuilding articles, you'll read the same thing written a hundred years ago... "Can't get wood like ya used to..." You see, a guy goes out into the woods to cut some wood for a boat. He cuts the first tree he comes to that meets his requirements. So... the next guy looking for boat wood necessarily has to walk just a little farther into the woods, past the stump of the trees cut by the guys who came before him, and he'll bitch that "ya just can't get good boat wood like ya used to..."

With the exception of woods that have pretty much gone commercially extinct, like some of the Spanish cedars, new world mahoganies, and Burmese teak, it's all still growing, you just have to "go a little farther into the forest" for it. How many times have guys posted in here that they can't find "good wood" at Home Depot or Lowe's. COME ON! Nobody can find good wood in a place like that. They sell medium to low grade crap for people who don't know (or know, but don't need) better. On the other hand, if you take the time to connect with a local sawyer and have the patience to plan ahead, I think folks will pretty much find that local boatbuilding wood as good as, if not better, than what was used two or three generations ago is still obtainable, often at very reasonable prices... just don't expect to run down to the local big box store and find it.
I see the error of my ways now, looking in all the wrong places.

[Greno]

I'm heading to get cheap plywood and pine 2x8x16's right now!

[BrianM]

Gee Whiz.. I owna dead traditionally built carvel planked on steam bent frame sailboat. My sons and I are building 3 cheap canoes using dog-crap big-box plywood. My sons have no woodworking skills (yet), and if they make a cutting error, it's a quick trip for another $11 sheet of 5mm "luan".

I want to LET them build it and learn by mistakes. Top Grade Marine is $45/sheet. Everybody slathers epoxy all over "top grade" marine plywood anyhow, so what the diff??? I've got a gallon left over from another project so what the heck. We are buildin'.

Nobody stopped me when I was 9 and made my first Punt from a sheet of exterior grade ply, and shelving lumber. It served very very well for over 5 years, then I gave it to a guy who duck hunts, and he used it for 7 more. Nobody gave me the big kabash when I took 12' packing crate pine for shipping machine shop barstock, and built my canoe.

Pretty darn good lifetime and learning experience from dog**** plywood.

Just enjoy yourself, and don't kill anybody.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

It's going to be 80+° here tomorrow. I'm taking my Cheap Canoe out for an 8 mile run down a local river. I will surely hit numerous rocks with enough force to turn big-box luan to flinders. Whatever misfortunes await me having my boat holed is not one of them.
Ya' pays yer money and ya' takes yer choice.

[Lewisboats]

'Bout the only thing they saw around here is corn stalks.

[paladin]

and I thought it was just me......50 plus years ago I was in a wood shop industrial arts class in school and had to learn to grade lumber and the grading system of plywood.....25 years ago I thought something was wrong with my memory as all the plywood seem to have high grade markings and too many gaps in the inner plys and too many patches....and the stuff they sell today as a-b grade or bc grade is not as good as the cd junk from class. When Amihan was built I purchased the best Tanguille I could find.....now they sell cheap luan in it's place....

[Lew Barrett]

This has turned into about the dumbest thread ever, with people so far afield on the subject as to have rendered any practical advice absolutely meaningless. Not your fault Shail. You asked a reasonable question and have simply received a series of rants.

[pcford]

This has turned into about the dumbest thread ever, with people so far afield on the subject as to have rendered any practical advice absolutely meaningless. Not your fault Shail. You asked a reasonable question and have simply received a series of rants.

Absolutely correct, Lew. I regret my participation in this thread. If I had the ability to nuke it I would. To a large extent I have myself to blame for not being more clear.

What I considered to be fairly innocuous musing on the distinct audiences for Wooden Boat and this forum was interpreted as an attack on one conception or style of boatbuilding. (Perhaps willfully?) This was certainly not what I meant. Moreover, it was not a criticism of any one person's style of work. However, it has been misinterpreted on both grounds. And we have seen people come charging out to do battle like a junkyard dog.

There are things which perhaps I could say. However, there seems no investment in reasonableness of the part of some of the participants in the discussion. Perhaps it's best just to leave this mess behind.

[Lew Barrett]

BHOFM; nah, post your stuff. It's what elevates this joint. Every now and again a troll or two show up, but they slink away once they've done their dirty work. The builds and repairs are the best stuff anyway. Don't punish the innocent!

[Spokaloo]

Or long-timers for that matter BHO

[oznabrag]

I don't know, pcford, your lead-off post on this thread came off as elitist. I think you'll agree that I am not the only one who thinks so. I accept that this was not your intention, but that's how it read.

Personally, I was a subscriber to WB way on back in 1976 (? maybe it was '77) and the thing that has always brought me back was that wooden boats are supposed to be fun. WB gets it. 'Boatbuilding in Your Own Back Yard' by S. S. Rabl was an early read and, as I remember, it gave general techniques and some fairly specific instructions as to building about a dozen 'traditional' wooden boats.

Even though a scant 30 years had passed since it's publication in 1947, the majority of the materials specified as 'being available at your local lumberyard', were not. Times had changed, and WB 'got it'. The number of people with the urge to build a boat had outstripped the traditional resources, and WB began getting people on the water in plywood-and-frozen-snot boats.

To tell you the truth, anyone with a traditionally built wooden boat these days is a member of a fairly elite group. As you have said yourself, even a small rowboat costs several thousand dollars, if one has it professionally built, and this is as it should be. As a professional woodworker, I can tell you that you won't get one from me for any less.

ShaiL posted the first question in the minds of practically every wannabee, newbie, amateur boatbuilder on the planet: Can I build it outta cheap ply? The answer, of course is 'Yes'.

The way I (and others) see it, you came swooping in saying that it was a waste of time and money, and essentially began raising barriers to this young person's realization of his dream. First ya gotta get a big old pile of expensive wood. Then ya gotta get a big old pile of expensive tools. Then you gotta get a big old pile of hard-won skills. And the list goes on. This way takes all the fun right out of it. The kid needs to get himself a simple plan for a simple plywood boat (which he has done. You Go Shail!) and a pile of reasonably void-free, exterior-grade plywood, and have at it with a $15 skil-saw and a cast steel hammer.

He will almost certainly have a blast. I can see him now cruising in to land after his first full afternoon on the water wearing a full-face grin and completely deaf to anyone who told him he couldn't. As his demands of his craft grow (along with his confidence) he can build another, better boat. maybe with that extra-fancy Marine Ply. Maybe he'll succumb to the ultimate madness and build a traditionally built 45 foot Pilot Cutter and amaze everyone he encounters.

I would say that YOU, PC, should never build a cheap, plywood boat. The prospect of it turns your stomach. As to me? I might turn out a small fleet of them this Summer. Maybe even a kayak or two outta big-box 2X and Sturdifloor.

I hope you have an outstanding day, old son.:)

John T

[pcford]

The way I (and others) see it, you came swooping in saying that it was a waste of time and money,

This is precisely what I did not say...unfortunately you (and others) want to see things your way.

So be it; have it your way. I don't want to sort through the coals again.

[oznabrag]

This is precisely what I did not say...unfortunately you (and others) want to see things your way.

So be it; have it your way. I don't want to sort through the coals again.

Well, once again, I beg your pardon Mister Ford. I hope you can re-read some of your early posts on this thread with an eye toward objectivity. Perhaps you will see where we all went wrong in our understanding of you.

Once again, I wish you the best.

John T

[pcford]

Well, once again, I beg your pardon Mister Ford. I hope you can re-read some of your early posts on this thread with an eye toward objectivity. Perhaps you will see where we all went wrong in our understanding of you.

Once again, I wish you the best.

John T

I know what I meant.

Look, the point I was trying (obviously unsuccessfully) to make is that there are two separate audiences which Wooden Boat addresses. That is the 800 pound gorilla about which I spoke. The needs of the two camps are in many respects contradictory...if nothing else...this discussion has proved that.

I have a clear attitude regarding where I stand...as I said...I have no attraction towards building a boat out of nontraditional materials. I guess here is the tricky part: Because I can't see myself doing things that way certainly does not mean that others should not see an attraction. And of course, what business is it of mine what others do in this regard? This was taken as an attack on people that use nontraditional materials and techniques. (And some people obviously took it to be a personal insult) Why would I do that? That is about as productive as yet another Mac versus pc debate.

These online discussions are sometimes like herding cats. I can only offer that you take at face value what I am saying here. If anyone wants to rant and rave you will have to do it with someone else..cuz I ain't dancin".

[erster]

This has turned into about the dumbest thread ever, with people so far afield on the subject as to have rendered any practical advice absolutely meaningless. Not your fault Shail. You asked a reasonable question and have simply received a series of rants.

There has been numerous people participate on topic, some with photos even on the water in materials that some deam unfit for human consumption. The only silliness if you can call it silly is that these particular instances of real to life successes just are not being tolerated in any form. For me I accept both methods and have weighed the options in each and every circumstances applicable to the boat build also with an alarming rate of success that continues to be kicked aside. If some would open up to the silly idea that even forms of cold moulding has been around since WWII done by some pretty serious builders and even used by the government risking life and limb at high rates of speed in open ocean.



I personally participate in less building and repairs and most of the ardent haters of plywood or alternative methods and materials have full run of two sections each and everyday without running into me. I have way too much interest in boats and some have way to much time to disregard what is happening in the business of boats.

As one seasoned veteran spoke, there are way to many people on the water which equates to way too many people coming here to ask questions, I guess for those types. :eek: :rolleyes: You guys have a nice day both here and on the water. I will leave you guys with one thought. If a thread showing Praire Islander was active, that thread would not be tolerated and suggestions to alter a build in such a manner would not be tolerated on this very thread this week using the mindset on display for sure. Anyone remember how that boat was built and what materials were incorporated into that boat?

Seems some have a short memory about using methods that are also friendly to trailer boats far and away from the oceans with a quest to own a wooden boat though.

[Rigadog]

http://www.parker-marine.com/Keel%2001.jpg (http://www.parker-marine.com/navdesk.jpg)
The Hollow Box Keel, bow part (Gripe)
http://www.parker-marine.com/Keel%2002.jpg (http://www.parker-marine.com/galley.jpg)
The Box Keel, stern part (Skeg)
http://www.parker-marine.com/Stern%20Planked.jpg (http://www.parker-marine.com/portlock.jpg)
The Stern, planked, & finished Keel
http://www.parker-marine.com/Turning%2001.jpg (http://www.parker-marine.com/heeltoport.jpg)
Turning the Hull--Bill Smith at right
http://www.parker-marine.com/Right%20Side%20Up%2002.jpg (http://www.parker-marine.com/portbow.jpg)
Right-side-up--back in the tent

Reuel Parker's latest plywood Sharpie, "Ibis", a takeoff on a San Juan Island Halibut Sharpie. He uses Average grade materials ands seems to come uip with some good results. As for Buehler's methods, I like them and he has some very good points about the use of plywood and roofing tar as a bedding material between layers. Low tech, low cost and effective.

[James McMullen]

So what's wrong with elitism anyway?

Look, enjoy your simple plywood boats, okay? I enjoyed some of the ones I built at the time. I'll almost certainly build a few quick, cheap boats in the future. Cheap-o boats have their place for sure.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2024/2192023213_c53dc151a9.jpg


But someone who can actually build a traditional lapstrake open boat like this one deserves to be worshipped as a god, and you know it. Even erster knows it--which is probably why he's so defensive. Some stuff is just boats, but some boats are actually and truly art.

It's ridiculous to try and maintain that cheap plywood boats are just as good--even though they may be fun to use. Don't fall into the lowbrow trap of tearing down the exquisite to try and level the playing field for your own, lesser efforts, 'kay? Something truly glorious like that rowboat ought to be appreciated and savored as an ultimate Holy Grail even if your own budget or skill level aren't up to it yet.

[geronimo74]

howdy all I've been readingh this thread and it has been quit amusing ,As a maintence repair guy from homes to boats ,I have always prefered to build better stronger ,especialy on my own projects,it all dependes on what you want and can really afford ,I would love to have a traditonly built commercial lobster style work boat ,made the best it could be,sadly i cannot attain nirvana yet,,,,,But my 21 ft ply wood skiff is keeping me on the water lets me get my 82 year old mama out once aweek and it is made with commercial grade ply and epoxy it has no problems at all you can see the plywood grain on the sideI kinda like it and the comercial fisherman who built it worked every day and loaded it with mullet most of those ,,its dry in the hull you cant tell the difference between a gouge and check (right terminology????) especialy when its patched many most of the commercial home built fleet around here are built with commercial grade lumber,and the last for years I will be building a18 ft Garvy soon and it will be all commercial grade ecept for the bottem Maybe,,I just chopped up a 30 year old 22 garvy made with ply and pt wood in the deck it was all in good shape ecept for the bow which been crushed by a tree in hurricane charly ,,yes it took me 5 years to decide not to repair,also if any one is interested i have a 30 ft garvey barnegat that could still be salvaged for the taking,,when I figure out how to get pix in here I'll send them

[oznabrag]

So what's wrong with elitism anyway?

Look, enjoy your simple plywood boats, okay? I enjoyed some of the ones I built at the time. I'll almost certainly build a few quick, cheap boats in the future. Cheap-o boats have their place for sure.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2024/2192023213_c53dc151a9.jpg


But someone who can actually build a traditional lapstrake open boat like this one deserves to be worshipped as a god, and you know it. Even erster knows it--which is probably why he's so defensive. Some stuff is just boats, but some boats are actually and truly art.

It's ridiculous to try and maintain that cheap plywood boats are just as good--even though they may be fun to use. Don't fall into the lowbrow trap of tearing down the exquisite to try and level the playing field for your own, lesser efforts, 'kay? Something truly glorious like that rowboat ought to be appreciated and savored as an ultimate Holy Grail even if your own budget or skill level aren't up to it yet.

No way would I ever suggest that rowboat is equal to some flat-bottomed john-boat made outta 1/2" CDX.

Three things:
1) I don't know Erster, but I believe he could build that boat.

2) I believe I can build that boat.

3) I want one, so I guess I'm just agonna have to find out if I really can build one. Where can I get the plans?:D

John T

[rbgarr]

It is like God saying,"I might build a planet", and,"Now, how much **** do I have to work with"?

Reminds me of this Ricky Gervais routine :D :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_sfSDCV9Jo

[davidrparker]

Reminds me of this Ricky Gervais routine :D :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_sfSDCV9Jo
Thanks rbgarr, that guy is a hoot!

[johnw]

No way would I ever suggest that rowboat is equal to some flat-bottomed john-boat made outta 1/2" CDX.

Three things:
1) I don't know Erster, but I believe he could build that boat.

2) I believe I can build that boat.

3) I want one, so I guess I'm just agonna have to find out if I really can build one. Where can I get the plans?:D

John T

http://erichvalsoe.googlepages.com/

[ShagRock]

So what's wrong with elitism anyway?

Look, enjoy your simple plywood boats, okay? I enjoyed some of the ones I built at the time. I'll almost certainly build a few quick, cheap boats in the future. Cheap-o boats have their place for sure.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2024/2192023213_c53dc151a9.jpg


But someone who can actually build a traditional lapstrake open boat like this one deserves to be worshipped as a god, and you know it. Even erster knows it--which is probably why he's so defensive. Some stuff is just boats, but some boats are actually and truly art.

It's ridiculous to try and maintain that cheap plywood boats are just as good--even though they may be fun to use. Don't fall into the lowbrow trap of tearing down the exquisite to try and level the playing field for your own, lesser efforts, 'kay? Something truly glorious like that rowboat ought to be appreciated and savored as an ultimate Holy Grail even if your own budget or skill level aren't up to it yet.
Well..I do apologize in some small manner for my earlier comment in this thread that "the fishers will throw you over the wharf", but only slightly:). I think this thread is actually a pretty darn good one for boat builders of all classes to read. The reason I made that comment was in reaction to the idea of 'two classes' of boatbuilders..real wood and cheap wood.

It's not as simple as that, because the traditional wood boat as a "piece of art" is only one expression and perception of such a boat. A beautiful little skiff like the one above, built by a fisherman out of the lowly spruce tree (no teak, fancy stuff, or polish) is just as beautiful in my eye anyway! Wherever and wherever I visit a dock, I spend as much time looking at and appreciating those dirtied up and hard used fisherman's wooden boats as I do the fancy yachts across the way. I love 'em both!

When I last built a boat, I cut all the wood, crooked roots and all for the entire thing..even hauled some down off the hills with a rope..good ones that weren't growing along side the trail! Only had to buy the nails, a few screws and bolts, and some marine paint. That was 20 years ago and she's still afloat, providing pleasure and a few fish to the owner.

But that was then in the far eastern shores of Atlantic Canada. Now I reside in a big city in the west. There is no way that approach is even practical. However, I will do one again with box store or city supplier lumber. Mostly, one just needs to do a lot of picking over the bad ones to get that that 'dandy one' that's always there!

In the meantime, I am going to venture into the "unknown" and build a wee thing out that God forsaken plywood!:eek:

I was reading a current similar "debate" about plywood on another forum where an old carpenter chimed in that the plywood used under vinyl flooring in house construction had waterproof Resorcinol glue and "no voids"..required so that heavy set ladies with high keels didn't fall through!

I just like to wish Shail all the best for the boat building adventure that lies ahead!

[oznabrag]

http://erichvalsoe.googlepages.com/

Thanks John, I knew someone would pull through!:)

edited to add: I went to the site. No plans for sale. No joy. Thanks anyway, I'll find something else.

[pcford]

Thanks John, I knew someone would pull through!:)

edited to add: I went to the site. No plans for sale. No joy. Thanks anyway, I'll find something else.

What's this then?

From Eric's home page:


Drop me a line at (206) 533-9138 or hvalsoboat@msn.com if you are interested in purchasing a set of lines and construction drawings, or want to know more about commissioning one of your own.
You can learn more about the HV13 and HV16 (http://erichvalsoe.googlepages.com/13and16) here on this website. And there's a bit about the process of commissioning a new boat here (http://erichvalsoe.googlepages.com/design).

[oznabrag]

What's this then?

From Eric's home page:


Drop me a line at (206) 533-9138 or hvalsoboat@msn.com if you are interested in purchasing a set of lines and construction drawings, or want to know more about commissioning one of your own.
You can learn more about the HV13 and HV16 (http://erichvalsoe.googlepages.com/13and16) here on this website. And there's a bit about the process of commissioning a new boat here (http://erichvalsoe.googlepages.com/design).

Excellent! I'll try to get that built this coming Winter. thanks again!

John T

[Lew Barrett]

Here's a tutorial on how to turn painting a 13 foot boat into a two year drama:

The Hvalsoe Rebuild (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65821&page=3)

[JBreeze]

One comment:

People are advocating different techniques and wood materials, but seemingly overlooked are the plans used to built a small boat. All designers toot their own horns to some extent, but it is very hard for a rookie to make a selection, build it and have the boat meet his/her expectations.

A specific example was my dilemma regarding a rowboat for a saltwater bay. Rowoats are fine for ponds with no wind, but try using one on a salt-water bay with strong currents and wind. Unless one can spend hours comparing the actual boats side by side, it is extremely hard to know which plan to chose.

If McMullen's beautiful rowboat can substantially outperform this rough stich and glue made with exterior fir ply, I might make one and invest the extra $$'s as well as subtantial extra time commitment. As a rookie, I chose a different design with a much lower cost in time and materials....as it turned out, wind and tides often exceeded my abilities, and I eventually added a small motor (Row 13 from www.bateau.com):

http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x92/jbreeze_albums/?action=view&current=tulips024.jpg
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x92/jbreeze_albums/tulips024.jpg
In summary a rookie generally has to make three major decisions.....time, materials and plans.....

I say go for the minimum unless/until you know exctly how the boat will perform and if it will meet your realistic expectations.

PS -a bucket of clams and a large striped bass on the floor of my clunker are pleasing to me....I wouldn't dare to take one of the works of art into the rocks where i do my best fishing:):

[Rigadog]

Cork Boats

All you need is corks and cocktail sticks to make these adorable little boats. If you don't have any cocktail stick handy then you can always use matchsticks sharpened to a point.

In Springtime, when there is plenty of water around, it is great fun to sail one of these little cork boats down the length of a stream. They are small enough not to get stuck too often, and the cork makes them super-floatable. If you don't have a stream to sail them on, then they can be sailed across any pool, puddle or well. The slightest breeze will catch their sails and you can make them race each other to the other side. The bigger the leaf you have used for a sail, the swifter it will go, until you make it too large and the boat will topple over!

http://www.jamboree.freedom-in-education.co.uk/images/crafts/boats/cork%20boat2.jpg
This is the basic design for a cork boat, as described in the instructions below.

http://www.jamboree.freedom-in-education.co.uk/images/crafts/boats/catamarran.jpg
This boat is a sort of catamaran, and is made with one cork split in half, and held together with cocktail sticks.

http://www.jamboree.freedom-in-education.co.uk/images/crafts/boats/6%20cork%20boat%20flash.jpg
Six corks were used to make this large boat (too big to fit down most streams) and one giant ivy leaf for the sail.

You will need:

A cork

2 cocktail sticks

a couple of leaves, or piece of paper

http://www.jamboree.freedom-in-education.co.uk/images/crafts/boats/one%20cork%20boat.jpg
This boat is really tiny, made from just one half cork. On the picture it has a piece of heather for a sail and mast.

[oznabrag]

One comment:

People are advocating different techniques and wood materials, but seemingly overlooked are the plans used to built a small boat. All designers toot their own horns to some extent, but it is very hard for a rookie to make a selection, build it and have the boat meet his/her expectations.

A specific example was my dilemma regarding a rowboat for a saltwater bay. Rowoats are fine for ponds with no wind, but try using one on a salt-water bay with strong currents and wind. Unless one can spend hours comparing the actual boats side by side, it is extremely hard to know which plan to chose.

If McMullen's beautiful rowboat can substantially outperform this rough stich and glue made with as exterior fir ply, I might make one and invest the extra $$'s as well as subtantial extra time commitment. As a rookie, I chose a different design with a much lower cost in time and materials....as it turned out, wind and tides often exceeded my abilities, and I eventually added a small motor (Row 13 from www.bateau.com): (http://www.bateau.com%29:)

http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x92/jbreeze_albums/?action=view&current=tulips024.jpg
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x92/jbreeze_albums/tulips024.jpg
In summary a rookie generally has to make three major decisions.....time, materials and plans.....

I say go for the minimum unless/until you know exctly how the boat will perform and if it will meet your realistic expectations.

PS -a bucket of clams and a large striped bass on the floor of my clunker are pleasing to me....I wouldn't dare to take one of the works of art into the rocks where i do my best fishing:):

Hey, JBreeze, that's a mighty fine lookin' boat ya got there!

I am no traditional rowboat expert, by any means, but I seem to recall (from the dim and dusty depths) that a boat such as yours needs 4 or 5 buckets of clams, and a dozen bass in the floor to behave itself when the wind kicks up.

Still, the motor must be nice.:)

John T

[oznabrag]

http://www.jamboree.freedom-in-education.co.uk/images/crafts/boats/one%20cork%20boat.jpg
This boat is really tiny, made from just one half cork. On the picture it has a piece of heather for a sail and mast.


Awwww! Dass kyoooot!

[jclays]

What a thread...My head hurts.

[James McMullen]

. . . .try using one on a salt-water bay with strong currents and wind. . . .

That's exactly what some rowboats are designed for. Some of us get pleasure from developing the seamanship to get where you want to go using only your own muscles, skill and sailing prowess. Others don't have the time or the patience to wait, yet still get pleasure from boating by just bolting an outboard onto the non-pointy end. A more sophisticated hull shape becomes more and more important the less horsepower you choose to throw at it. Each cat his own rat.

[peter radclyffe]

Awwww! Dass kyoooot! someone told me it's strip planked, but i cant be sure , & is it really epifanes or deks olje, we know all craftsmen have their trade secrets

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I have a relative that was raised in Bayfield County Wisconsin. He is a kind of local historian who has published numerous articles on the pioneer day in that locale. Some of this I gort from him.
Bayfield is the northernmost county in Wisconsin and about 60 mile east of
Duluth. What brought pioneers to Bayfield was timber. There was a massive mixed desiduous and conifer forest that could produce old growth, hundreds of years old timber with massive straight trunks. They started clear cutting in about 1890. Bayfield sits on Chequamegon Bay which became the watery store house for all the logs. Around the edges were the saw mills that sawed away night and day. The never thought that they would, one day, run out of trees. By 1905 the barren landscape said the end of the glory days was coming and by 1910 it was over. With no more logs the sawmills closed and the stump-filled land was sold off to land-hungry greenhorns.
But were all the logs sawed up? Not exactly. A huge amount of them were sitting on the bottom of the bay in a kind of cold strorage. About 20 years ago a guy started diving to see what was down there. Lots of logs there were so he got a permit from the state to start bringing them up. Very quickly it became apparent that these logs contained wood that was unlike anything grown today. Massive straight trunks with tiny growth rings that could be milled into a million miles of very pricey veneer. Logs were going for as high as $10,000 a pop from the start. Since the winters in Bayfield County are exceedingly severe the logging only goes on for a few months in summer so they may still be bringing stuff up.
Today, the Chequamegon National Forest in Bayfield County is loaded with nothing but conifers that don't last long because they get turned into woodpulp. Desiduous trees found on private land take a long time to get to any size because of the short growing season. But the forest is coming back. A lot of the farmland is no longer tilled and trees are taking over but it will take about 500 years to produce anything like what was cut 100 yeas ago.
We are stuck with what we can come up with and none of it is likely to be the pick of the litter.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

No way would I ever suggest that rowboat is equal to some flat-bottomed john-boat made outta 1/2" CDX.

Three things:
1) I don't know Erster, but I believe he could build that boat.

2) I believe I can build that boat.

3) I want one, so I guess I'm just agonna have to find out if I really can build one. Where can I get the plans?:D

John T

Oh no, I got onto this thread? Well thanks for posting a picture of the 16. With patience, some woodworking skills, and boning up on traditional techniques I know many people can build a boat like this. You will not build precisely the same boat I build because my 25 years plus of experience does not exactly go with the plans - there is much to figure out on your own. But my drawings, the design itself, are a product of those years developing this hull model. You can pick up some of my boatbuilding methods by taking one of my classes at the Center For Wooden Boats in Seattle. Or even surfing the forum. Or not. Or from other sources, and your own native ingenuity. It is the kind of boat where the stability and function of the woods used in construction are paramount. Probably not the kind of boat to test the bottom limit of a budget.

I have nothing against other kinds of construction, and I have taught and built a wide spectrum of small to 'middlin wooden boat projects. The Hvalsoe 16 is an example of a focus on rowing and sailing with a traditional round bottom hull. I happen to enjoy working with cedar, and have not drafted plans for other varieties of construction with this hull - strip or ply lapstrake. One of these days. The hull design is one part of the picture, the actual construction another series of decisions.

An inexpensive (or expensive) plywood boat can be a fine thing. Maybe a 'well found' boat is most importantly a boat that suits the builder's intentions.

[oznabrag]

Hi, Eric.

I emailed you yesterday about the 16. I am looking at a few other designs, but yours is leading the pack at the moment.

I have built no boats in the 'traditional' way, but I have 4 under my belt of the 'lemme get a pile of wood and see if I can make a boat out of it' variety. One of these was stolen from me by my brother Charlie and used as a fishing skiff for quite a few years.

I have been making things out of wood for money for about 35 years, now, and I have sawed up several thousand BF of Mahogany and such. I have learned how to learn what I need to learn, so I am not intimidated by the prospect learning to build your 16.

I am very glad to have you on this thread simply because you are a very talented and experienced traditional boatbuilder AND you are able to say "An inexpensive (or expensive) plywood boat can be a fine thing. Maybe a 'well found' boat is most importantly a boat that suits the builder's intentions." This indicates, to me, that you have acquired the genuine humility of the true craftsman, and you, sir, are welcome at my table at any time.

John T

[erster]

Hum, this thread is still rolling along. James I am honored to be on the defensive........team, defending many builders here that have proudly professed their accomplishments. I begin a thread showing some of the ones that you also agree with most of the times and ask for people to provide horror stories too after finishing them. To date the thread is pretty quiet. Hopefully there will be some to come to light since there has surely been enough bashing of the product. When will you also convey the same sort of daily scorn on those folks? [didn't think so]

As far as your boat? I commend anyone that completes their own version of a floating object even achieving a high level of workmanship. I also accept those that wish to go on the water and for many reasons choose a different avenue. I am also proud of taking several approaches for boats also depending on my own needs and interpretation and even some built because of the crazy ideas that may not agree with many here.

For the newbies a refresher course,,,, This is my interpretation of what I consider eight dollar plywood should come out to be when I have nothing better to do. I like a boat that I can shave and read the morning newspaper for kicks. I also think that there are some ants crawling too just to the side of the wheel. Yep 16 years of abuse with nothing more than a chamois when returning from a trip.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/DSC05675.jpg

I also risk my life and limb wandering out there in no mans land too. See that little bitty spec in the upper left hand corner just over the little bitty sand line?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/DSC05636.jpg

This is also the results of three years of heavy duty use on a workboat as I cleaned it up for another season of abuse plowing the sandy bars.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/bottomplanking-2.jpg

This is what it looks like after three years of trailer sailing with nothing more than a swipe and wipe upon returning home. I challenge anyone here to show me one hull that can stand the test of time in simular set of circumstances of any traditional boat. There is not one single seam crack. Each shot shows the same area of the bottom, the starboard area along the end of the skeg.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/DSC05666.jpg

This is the inside today as I swiped a damp rag across it to clean some wind blown dirt off of the inside.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/DSC05670.jpg
You darn tooting, I like my playboats and will always accept partners and at that time will be open to other folks ideas of what and how I should build.

[Big Woody]

My ignorant opinion is that if you want something inexpensive, buy a used boat.

A lot of these guys who only build the best, will roll over in their graves when their widows or children sell their boats for pennies on the dollar just to get the money trap sold.

I got a working ski boat and tandem axle trailer for $300 once. I used it for about four years and then sold it to a junk dealer for about the same amount.

I personally would not waste your time building junk. If you're going to invest your life into something, do it right. If you just want to go boating on a budget, there are bound to be some good deals on used boats out there right now with the economy being down. If you get a good enough deal you might be able to sell the thing later for a profit or at least recoup most of what you spent. Some poor old lady with no intention of ever boating again is just waiting for you to make her an offer on her late husbands boat that is still blocking half of her driveway.

[pipefitter]

LOL, Mike. I think it may be safe to say that you get to prove your materials as much, if not more than just about anyone on this forum if the picture spam you send me daily/weekly is any indication.

As far as plywood, cheap or not so cheap, I chose to avoid traditional construction for performance and storage reasons and strength/weight ratio considerations. As it is, the Simmons incorporates a little of both and perhaps some taboo practices that have been proven to be a non issue and after using the boat, seeing why it all works as it does.

At any rate, even in some cut rate hulls, there is always room for some trad tool work and practice on the inter-trim while having a lot less impact on the forest.

People can say what they will about the availability of quality materials for all but this just isn't universally true. I have seen the old cypress and heart pine in remodel work down here and even the select wood of the species today does not meet the standards. What we are left with is, "it should be fine for use in a boat". Those statements at times make me cringe, as I have the proof right out in my back yard with unintentional, yet sound environmental testing by way of no more than acts of God and this on select, rather tight grained lumber. No preferential treatment was given to anything, by me anyway.

When I was looking for a sawyer to provide me with a local alternative to Honduras mahogany, it was very expensive, AND, I was to take some of the bad with the good, meaning, I would have had wood I wouldn't use anywhere. What this translated to was, what happens if I need to redo parts of this down the road? I am going to have to seek out suitable materials, even if I only need one piece? To hell with that. I chose a standard that was easily and somewhat universally replaceable without having to stock it as termite food in the meantime.

The only real lesson I have learned outside of what common sense I applied to this build, is that I got the feeling of what the Maytag repairman must feel like. If I was to build this boat in hopes of having little fix-it projects as an extension of the hobby, I would be surely disappointed. I can't even get the paint to fall off this thing and just hold hope that I don't tire of the color.

As a side note: I am sure I have mentioned this before but I have to hand it to old Dave Carnell. His assessment of epoxy and materials ended up being true and saved me quite a few dollars in the process. No fancy lab coat labels with prettying up of the facts. Just basic common sense that will work time and time again for building boats that keep on giving for many years. Follow these types of general guidelines and you will not be disappointed.

Oyster Mike, yet another one. He turned me on to Interlux's barrier coat primer and he wasn't kidding when he said it was tough stuff. I never even bothered painting over it as it has survived beaching and trailering without a scratch.

Some of us work with intense and exacting craftsmanship daily. The traditional built boat may not always be the pinnacle of achievement necessary to prove one's skills for everyone. If the plywood hull I built was a deviation away from that notion by any means, I appreciated the break. ;)

[erster]

Some of us work with intense and exacting craftsmanship daily. The traditional built boat may not always be the pinnacle of achievement necessary to prove one's skills for everyone. If the plywood hull I built was a deviation away from that notion by any means, I appreciated the break

Yep well said. I am enjoying the long break for sure. ;) The more I think about it I may get a belly ring too.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/fda5bc6b.jpg

[Tar Devil]

My cheap ply boat after nearly a year of frequent use in the environment you see here. Glass and epoxy on the bottom only. I dry her out thoroughly after every trip and touch up any scratched paint. The boat is as sound as the day it was launched.

If I were building a showpiece like Hvalsoe's boat that would be used in less adverse waters, no doubt I'd use better materials. For this boat and its intended use, I used adequate materials.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/TarDevil/Boats/Ez%20Canoe/On%20the%20River/100_0765.jpg

[stevedwyer]

Sapele marine mahogany plywood...
http://www.sailing-new-england.com/images/in_the_grasses-web.jpg

[James McMullen]

Uh. . .Erster, you are once again taking things out of context and assuming condemnation and scorn where there was none intended. Firstly, that wasn't a picture of my own boat. It is a boat built to a standard which I hold as a goal. My own personal boat is built with plywood and epoxy, remember? Apparently not.

You also seem to have forgotten the bit where I recommended building a simple boat as a great step towards developing the boatbuilding bug. If you were to pay better attention, you'd notice that I actively champion and promote the idea of people jumping in and learning how to build their own boats. I have found it such a rewarding hobby and occupation that I am currently building my 51st boat, a stitch and glue plywood Devlin design. It is because I have built so many boats and enjoy boating so much myself, that I feel a strong desire to help others starting out in the field to enjoy building themselves a thing a pride by not using incorrect or shoddy materials as a starting place. Sapele marine plywood is not even remotely the same thing as luan doorskins or CDX fir, and you don't do anyone any favors by pretending that it's just as nifty.

I do have daily scorn for your reading comprehension and lack of ability to write coherently, but that's really a different topic, isn't it?

[Lewisboats]

So...Y'all skeered him away yet?

[erster]

Uh. . .Erster, you are once again taking things out of context and assuming condemnation and scorn where there was none intended. Firstly, that wasn't a picture of my own boat. It is a boat built to a standard which I hold as a goal. My own personal boat is built with plywood and epoxy, remember? Apparently not.

You also seem to have forgotten the bit where I recommended building a simple boat as a great step towards developing the boatbuilding bug. If you were to pay better attention, you'd notice that I actively champion and promote the idea of people jumping in and learning how to build their own boats. I have found it such a rewarding hobby and occupation that I am currently building my 51st boat, a stitch and glue plywood Devlin design. It is because I have built so many boats and enjoy boating so much myself, that I feel a strong desire to help others starting out in the field to enjoy building themselves a thing a pride by not using incorrect or shoddy materials as a starting place. Sapele marine plywood is not even remotely the same thing as luan doorskins or CDX fir, and you don't do anyone any favors by pretending that it's just as nifty.

I do have daily scorn for your reading comprehension and lack of ability to write coherently, but that's really a different topic, isn't it?


Lets discuss the issues of plywood, a point of contention here. Your reading comprehension and my writing seems to be just fine. Afterall you have also taken the time to reply point on. The key issue here is that the attitudes that spills over from other areas of the forum clouds how you wish to respond when you are taken to task for selecting certain individuals to criticize, especially if you have the experience in boats as you claim and champion each day. As I stated I am proud to take a few moments replying to this thread and defend the "innocent" while you and several others feel the need to discourage many newcomers which pertains directly to this thread. There are also others on this forum that daily build boats using plywoods and yes build using less than the well known plywoods with incredible sucess rates. This can be done and continues to be done. Sure traditional boats and quality materials should be at the forefront here, but thats just not going to happen.


Reasons for doing so includes a lot of reasons and should also not be discounted. When someone posts an inquiry dealing with obtaining materials and includes comments such as these, take a deep breath and consider the real reasons.


I want to build a boat for our lake and live in Kansas and cannot find plywood at our big box store. I am a first time buiilder with a few tools and want to build a small row boat with my son or daughter to kick around the pond or local lake.

I can include numeous other comments thats standard fare each and everyday across the internet. The bottom line is there is a big learning curve that exists in the first timer. Even to this day I use luan and pattern my big parts because of the expense of screwups after having more that just read a book or magazine on boats.

This also begins with the process of cutting materials that will be shaped completely different than any other project most novice have ever taken on and for sure ordering in pieces of materials that quite possibly will be a sticker shock for these people and then make cuts that will quite possibly be wrong and then needs more to finish the job makes no sense. This also will discourage many from taking the leap. Again some think thats a good thing you know.

Most big box plywood is pure junk. But I can also tell you that some of the 1/4" stuff thats now being carried in some of the local stores is as good as any of the imported materials. Lowes is carrying some of materials called Sure Ply and also plywood Arubo[sp] in 1/2" that will pass the boil test and dishwasher cycle with flying colors. zi will provide photo evidence of this later for anyone interested. The layers in the 1/4" are uniform too. If a person will be encapsulating, especially, the stuff thats presently being stocked is truely super.


The surfaces will not check and will finish off as good as any 100 buck sheet material being sold. There is another thread that actually has a purist that is himself building a plywood and forbidden fruit[epoxy] and promoting the same for others for kayaks. [Now don't have a heartattack now]. There are many others building their own kayaks with less that approved materials getting the same enjoyment out of them and will do so for a lot of years. I learned early on when the occasion dictates, I don't have to like the same car or house like my neighbors and they likewise are not required to adhere to mine. Gated communities and condo commandos are other areas thats off limits to me too.

I have used numerous materials in big and small boats. Right now there are several builders building commercially using the stuff for bulkheads building approved and high dollar boats with huge liability issues. I have some of the stuff in a boat sitting idle for the expressed purpose of seeing how bad I can abuse it out of curiosity. I have three years of sitting under a tree and the rain and ice and tree crap in it and to date has never had any finish applied to it and has not delaminated one single layer.

In my new hull being built, I am using the leftovers thats been laying around all stamped 1088, mahogany plywood, white cedar, yet you continue to ignore that I am not afraid to offer numerous methods and have weighed the options when doing so.

Again stuff thats avaliable which includes paints, materials, fasteners and the likes are not always avaliable in remote areas like they are in the Seattle and some of the large metropolitan areas while the same desires to be on the water is surely there. There are reasons that there are plans being sold that call for less than perfect materials too. Its not always about marketing. There are legitimate reasons. In the area of paints, painting is also an aquired skill for numerous guys. If many folks actually knew the amount of sanding involved for five minutes of painting, many would run as fast as they can from anything remotely close to a boat, especially when working on the inside corners.


These reasons include the crazy idea that there are beginners and actually learn by mistakes. For me I hate doing the same thing over and over and getting the same results. Thats just boring for me anyway. So I took the extra step and have been willing to share those off the wall ideas. You do know that afflicted and affected people are in the area of boats. People buy multiple plans, build numerous boats and some spend all their beer money on boat parts and rarely kick the habit after their first puff. .

But some continue to promote the notion that we must search out sawyers or order in wood which includes materials that quite possibly will be miscut because of just plain old fashion ignorance which comes with first timers. It is possible to build and use boats that do not meet the criteria of Hershoff and the likes. We all learned to crawl before we walked and the same should also apply here with the help of people that have also achieved the level of expertise of your workmanship. You have free reign to do so. This thread could also be a learning tool for all when the next plywood bastardizer from some people's point of view comes along.

So try to use a more open mind instead of discounting these less than perfect guys from your point of view. Or in your case, order up some of these constructive comments while you have all the other hands on skills.


People should take these issues into considerations before blanket brushing others of having no desire for doing things right. Or a better plan in this instance you could order in some patience of 'Job' on your next thread of this type too.:):cool:.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/norm-1.jpg

[James McMullen]

This also begins with the process of cutting materials that will be shaped completely different than any other project most novice have ever taken on and for sure ordering in pieces of materials that quite possibly will be a sticker shock for these people and then make cuts that will quite possibly be wrong and then needs more to finish the job makes no sense.

I would be willing to pay $20 to anyone who can correctly diagram this sentence in accordance with the accepted rules of Modern Standard English.




Most big box plywood is pure junk

On the other hand, the above sentence actually does make sense, and is in fact the reason why the majority of experienced builders on this topic have recommended against using it to build boats.

It is bizarre to me that you think that advice to use high quality materials for an object that can be dangerous to its user if it suffers structural failure is intended to discourage newcomers. What nonsense! Encouragement and advice as to how to build a safe boat that performs well is the very best kind of support for a new builder.


This thread could also be a learning tool for all when the next plywood bastardizer from some people's point of view comes along.

I think I agree with this sentence also. . . .though I'm not entirely sure what it means. However, the scanscion is euphonious enough to simply appreciate it in its own right as a tone poem. Would you mind if I appropriated it for my signature tag-line?

[Figment]

I just wanted an assessment on how long such a boat would last, then I can make my calculations on whether to build it with cheap plywood.
Remember, it would be immersed in the water 4 hours a week.

I built a pram dinghy out of luan 6 years ago. Built strictly for utility purposes, it has not been babied in any way. Absolute minimal maintenance.
It's fine.

[erster]

Feel free to recommend all the proper materials. Proper is also being narrowly defined by you and only a couple more here daily when you suggest such too. Price and even correct materials such as B.S. 1088 plywoods are not always avaliable and also have a wide range of quality. Woods in many areas are also not avaliable. These issues were covered in good old fashion common sense reasoning in my reply. Your building methods and even hardware in each boat also changes and can require different materials and you can also build a perfectly good hull. Look around this thread and beware there are others that have taken such steps to prove you wrong, using materials other than you narrowly subscribe to here.


Again stuff thats avaliable which includes paints, materials, fasteners and the likes are not always avaliable in remote areas like they are in the Seattle and some of the large metropolitan areas while the same desires to be on the water is surely there.

In one liine many promote the use of local stuff and then when this is also being done, we read the nonsense that the materials are just not sufficent. People are using what is avaliable in their areas, areas that in many cases are not "proper" in your mind. There is a thread on this very forum dealing with using Cottonwood. I highly recommend that you seek out that one which also supports my comments.

There are also members that also use the strip planking methods which also produces an incredible hull and have for years survived rigid testing. Yet that method also recieves the same rants about less than quality work and inferior hulls filled with goop and glass.

The only issue that you seem hellbent on when loosing an argument is to shoot the messenger while replying to what was actually stated. FUNNY!!!!!

Thanks Figment for adding your comments while I was posting. But beware.....oh wait, never happen.;):D

[oznabrag]

I wanna thank James McMullen and Erster et al, for bringing what I see as the central tension of amateur boatbuilding out into the light of day. Kicking and screaming.

For one thing, I'd like to say to James; man, you oughtta lay offa Erster Mike in the literacy department. Mike, quite obviously, has a well-founded, well-developed and (like it or not, dude) sophisticated philosophy of boatbuilding.

You may feel free to look up the definition of 'sophisticated', if you'd like.

In my opinion, James, your derision of this person on account of his level of 'literacy' is beneath you. You may rest very well assured that there have been many, many thousands of perfectly safe, reliable, capable watercraft built by people who couldn't read an essay,much less write one. People who signed their names with an X. People who built what boats they could with the materials they had. In fact, it may be said that the Hvalsoe 16, as utterly exquisite as it is, and notwithstanding the god-like skills and abilities of it's progenitor, owes it's existence to hundreds of years of evolution from those very boats! They were boats that were intended to get fisherfolk out on the water, where they could scrape together enough food to fill their bellies and raise their children. Boats built out of planks split from the round and tree roots painstakingly sawed and carved. Boats that required the coin of the realm only for the acquisition of enough nails and paint and caulking to keep them together.

Perhaps the most useful quote on this whole thread is from Eric Hvalsoe: "An inexpensive (or expensive) plywood boat can be a fine thing. Maybe a 'well found' boat is most importantly a boat that suits the builder's intentions." I would think that one of a boatbuilder's intentions must, by definition, be safety and seaworthiness, and I do not for one split second believe that Mike would advocate building an unsafe boat. Using plywood intended for building houses requires the use of more brain-power than 1088 because a whole 'nother set of compromises enters into the decision-making process. The use of exterior, rather than marine-grade, means more labor, too. One must cut around flaws and fill voids. One must upgrade the scantlings of practically everything in the boat. The benefits of using exterior accrue, principally, to those of us who have more time than money, and the only drawback (for those who actually use their heads to overcome the flaws in the materials) is they are gonna build a heavier boat. Well, it'll prolly look better under paint, as well, but you get what I'm saying.

It may be that Marine Plywood is, indeed, safer for the rank amateur, because of the decisions that must be made. I'll give you that, but, in making such a judgment, one must begin consideration of an enormous realm of philosophical reckoning that may include such esoteric and diverse subjects as 'Tort Reform' and 'Nanny State', and such a discussion is, demonstrably, better suited to 'The Bilge'.

Thanks,

John T

[James McMullen]

Thank you for your thoughtful post, oznabrag. I wish I could be as optimistic as you that erster was not potentially steering people down the wrong path with his very democratic and universalist philosophy of boating, but I have caught him on more than one occasion recommending techniques and procedures that are simply not safe. I remember one time in particular where he ranted for post after post about how caring to notice whether the people around you in an anchorage had followed correct and proper anchoring methods was somehow elitist. I have resolved to never, ever, ever anchor downwind or downcurrent of him, myself.

You can build simple yet effective boats out of inexpensive materials. I've built dozens and dozens of them, from umiaks to kayaks and prams to plywood schooners. But cheap materials are a compromise, just like any other facet of boatbuilding, and trivializing the differences between cheap-o plywood and Lloyd's Standards BS 1088 plywood is intellectually dishonest.

I am sorry that my critique of Erster's writing prowess offends you. I consider it to be prima facie evidence of his erratic and muddled thinking on other points as well, but I will take your advice and stress it no more on this thread as I can see my frustration with him is definitely straying towards a personal attack--which I regret. I think we in this forum should feel free to vigorously disagree without involving personal rancor, so I think I will stop here and let the body of my previous posts say what I have to say on this topic.

[Dave Wright]

I think I agree with this sentence also. . . .though I'm not entirely sure what it means. However, the scanscion is euphonious enough to simply appreciate it in its own right as a tone poem. Would you mind if I appropriated it for my signature tag-line?

How about breaking the sentence up and showing me the scanscion, because I don't see it? I don't see the harmony either???

I do see the problem with public forums though. I come here for the boating and boatbuilding posts. But most of the posts deal with other subjects, so it can be hard wading through all of the chaff.

I'm left with the thought that when I think of Oyster Mike, I'll remember a series of consistently interesting and informative boatbuilding and boating pictures over the years. But when I think of you, I'll remember just about the poorest example of a scansion ever offered, and wonder why you ever broached the subject.

That's too bad, because you probably have a lot to contribute on boatbuildiing and boating.

[Spokaloo]

Dave you make me smile. Love to hear your side of things, esp all the emails we have traded.

Gonna be in Seattle May 13th and 17th, might have to hook up.

E

[oznabrag]

Thank you for your thoughtful post, oznabrag. I wish I could be as optimistic as you that erster was not potentially steering people down the wrong path with his very democratic and universalist philosophy of boating, but I have caught him on more than one occasion recommending techniques and procedures that are simply not safe. I remember one time in particular where he ranted for post after post about how caring to notice whether the people around you in an anchorage had followed correct and proper anchoring methods was somehow elitist. I have resolved to never, ever, ever anchor downwind or downcurrent of him, myself.

You can build simple yet effective boats out of inexpensive materials. I've built dozens and dozens of them, from umiaks to kayaks and prams to plywood schooners. But cheap materials are a compromise, just like any other facet of boatbuilding, and trivializing the differences between cheap-o plywood and Lloyd's Standards BS 1088 plywood is intellectually dishonest.

I am sorry that my critique of Erster's writing prowess offends you. I consider it to be prima facie evidence of his erratic and muddled thinking on other points as well, but I will take your advice and stress it no more on this thread as I can see my frustration with him is definitely straying towards a personal attack--which I regret. I think we in this forum should feel free to vigorously disagree without involving personal rancor, so I think I will stop here and let the body of my previous posts say what I have to say on this topic.

No, no, thank YOU, James, for having entertained my thoughts on this without rancor.

As a newbie on this forum, I am blissfully unaware of the 'history' between you two (though it is fairly easy to see it exists;)).

I think we can agree that there's plenty of fun for everyone, especially if we all make our own!:)

Thanks again, man.

John T

[pipefitter]

LOL. . . Oyster reads and writes and speaks just fine and be glad he gives you spaces between the words. Actually, a lot of us read and write well but type like crap. I use 3-4 fingers and stare at the keyboard and whatever goes, goes.

Oyster suffers from angle grinder cramps so he doesn't type with his fingers. Here is a picture of what angle grinder grip looks like.
http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/F7O/8J0M/FK5QTCS0/F7O8J0MFK5QTCS0.MEDIUM.jpg

The affliction causes one not to be able to type with their fingers at all, but instead, sort of karate chop the keys.

Some people get to sit around the computer and read and spend the majority of their days typing and posturing intellect, while keeping dainty digits flexible. Critiquing grammar is one of the first signs of electronic overexposure, which causes severe boredom and tolerance issues.

All kidding aside though, I am actually surprised someone like Oyster and some of the other folks around here even bother with the internet and cameras and such. Most of the good tradesmen I grew up around, would not be caught dead sitting in front of this idiot box for common sense sake alone. With that said, I could care less what someone writes/types like. We're fortunate that old schoolers even bother to share their craft and tricks they have learned and living proof of what works and what doesn't. Besides, if I had an unanswered question, it isn't unlike him to donate a phone call to the cause and has answered quite a few faster than I could have looked it up.

[Tar Devil]

Besides, if I had an unanswered question, it isn't unlike him to donate a phone call to the cause and has answered quite a few faster than I could have looked it up.

Perfectly well said. When I built my boat I posted progress here. I never failed to receive a phone call - well ahead of the question - offering advice and suggestions that saved me time and materials ($$'s).

Mike may have his own style with the written word, but his six sense with boats is to be envied and I pay close attention when he speaks on the subject.

[Mike Vogdes]

I could care less what someone writes/types like. We're fortunate that old schoolers even bother to share their craft and tricks they have learned and living proof of what works and what doesn't. Besides, if I had an unanswered question, it isn't unlike him to donate a phone call to the cause and has answered quite a few faster than I could have looked it up.



Mike is a boat builder extraordinaire, and a damned talented one, so what if he flunked English, I bet he got an A in Shop.. I'm glad to see they finally came out with a Oyster Mike action figure.

[Yeadon]

I think I've finally figured out what this thread is all about ...


Well, I don't think there is a BIG market..there is a market. There's a guy up on Granville Island in Vancouver who is doing ok. Then there is Eric Hvalsoe here in town.


Hvalsoe Reference No. 1


This has turned into about the dumbest thread ever, with people so far afield on the subject as to have rendered any practical advice absolutely meaningless. Not your fault Shail. You asked a reasonable question and have simply received a series of rants.

A noble try, Lew, but please, this thread was just starting to gain focus.


blah blah blah elitism ...



http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2024/2192023213_c53dc151a9.jpg


blah blah blah ...

But someone who can actually build a traditional lapstrake open boat like this one deserves to be worshipped as a god, and you know it. Even erster knows it--which is probably why he's so defensive. Some stuff is just boats, but some boats are actually and truly art.


Hvalsoe Reference No. 2.
Oh dear god, I sense a pattern forming. Someone just called Hvalsoe a god.


http://erichvalsoe.googlepages.com/

That's No. 3 ... Some data has entered the discussion.


What's this then?

From Eric's home page:


Drop me a line at (206) 533-9138 or hvalsoboat@msn.com if you are interested in purchasing a set of lines and construction drawings, or want to know more about commissioning one of your own.
You can learn more about the HV13 and HV16 (http://erichvalsoe.googlepages.com/13and16) here on this website. And there's a bit about the process of commissioning a new boat here (http://erichvalsoe.googlepages.com/design).

No. 4 ... PCFORD WITH THE HVALSOE-FUELED SMACKDOWN. Ain't he a beast?


Here's a tutorial on how to turn painting a 13 foot boat into a two year drama:

The Hvalsoe Rebuild (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65821&page=3)

At this point, Lew has begun to understand what is happening here. He decides to join a friendly crowd in a topic we can all agree on. I do not blame him.
That's No. 5.


blah blah blah ... Hvalsoe 16, as utterly exquisite as it is, and notwithstanding the god-like skills and abilities of it's progenitor, owes it's existence to hundreds of years of evolution from those very boats!

more blah blah blah'ing ...

Perhaps the most useful quote on this whole thread is from Eric Hvalsoe: "An inexpensive (or expensive) plywood boat can be a fine thing. Maybe a 'well found' boat is most importantly a boat that suits the builder's intentions."

followed by more blah, blah, blah'ing.

Thanks,

John T

That's No. 6. Wow. What a day for Hvalsoe Boats. A social media coup.


How about breaking the sentence up and showing me the scanscion, because I don't see it? I don't see the harmony either???


Actually, I found this interesting, as I've never heard of a "scansion." I'd look it up, but I sense it'll be over my head.

... so, what have we learned here? It would appear that the winner of this thread is neither James, nor Pat, nor Smalser, nor Mike, but the creator himself of the Hvalsoe 9000. An epic monster has been born.

Oh, here is my opinion about building with low grade plywood. I'm totally for it, unless it is on my boat.

[cybulski]

I am building my first boat with cheaper materials, plywood, and leftover wood from work. It has been a learning experience, especially since i didn't use plans or patterns. I just started from scratch. I could never have done this with expensive material, But the thing is now I feel comfortable starting a bigger more complicated boat. I expect to use the boat i am building now a few times a year. But like I said, it was more for the learning and experience.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

[quote=Tar Devil;2178626]My cheap ply boat after nearly a year of frequent use in the environment you see here. Glass and epoxy on the bottom only. I dry her out thoroughly after every trip and touch up any scratched paint. The boat is as sound as the day it was launched.

If I were building a showpiece like Hvalsoe's boat that would be used in less adverse waters, no doubt I'd use better materials. For this boat and its intended use, I used adequate materials.

Well Tar Devil, maybe you have me, maybe you don't. I admit that I avoid pulling my 16 up on nasty rocks, and look for some sort of beach to touch on with her UHMW shoe. But I put the boat through some pretty challenging conditions and situations. You can call the 16 a showboat, that's fine, but my own boat is no china doll. I also dry her out and touch up bare spots with paint and varnish after use. After 9 years my boat is in need of her first signifcant topside paint recoating. The varnished surfaces can aptly be desribed as somewhat distressed. Distressed as they may be, I still enjoy the bright spruce and mahogany and am willing to do some varnish work on them every year. The interior planking surface is much weathered and simply refreshed with teak oil. No argument however, that the 16 is a relatively expensive boat to build and will reach a pretty narrow niche. I just want to say that I believe in building boats, of whatever construction method, to be used - Amen!

[Tom Robb]

As noted above, ad hominem arguments are unfortunate at best and tend to insult everyone's intellegence.
Is this turning into this years China Diesel thread?

[retrowood]

Sapele marine mahogany plywood...
http://www.sailing-new-england.com/images/in_the_grasses-web.jpg


Can you give specifics on this design? Beautiful! Thanks,

Retrowood

[peter radclyffe]

LOL. . . Oyster reads and writes and speaks just fine and be glad he gives you spaces between the words. Actually, a lot of us read and write well but type like crap. I use 3-4 fingers and stare at the keyboard and whatever goes, goes.

Oyster suffers from angle grinder cramps so he doesn't type with his fingers. Here is a picture of what angle grinder grip looks like.
http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/F7O/8J0M/FK5QTCS0/F7O8J0MFK5QTCS0.MEDIUM.jpg

The affliction causes one not to be able to type with their fingers at all, but instead, sort of karate chop the keys.

Some people get to sit around the computer and read and spend the majority of their days typing and posturing intellect, while keeping dainty digits flexible. Critiquing grammar is one of the first signs of electronic overexposure, which causes severe boredom and tolerance issues.

All kidding aside though, I am actually surprised someone like Oyster and some of the other folks around here even bother with the internet and cameras and such. Most of the good tradesmen I grew up around, would not be caught dead sitting in front of this idiot box for common sense sake alone. With that said, I could care less what someone writes/types like. We're fortunate that old schoolers even bother to share their craft and tricks they have learned and living proof of what works and what doesn't. Besides, if I had an unanswered question, it isn't unlike him to donate a phone call to the cause and has answered quite a few faster than I could have looked it up.
well said, having fun is the important thing, not this ever decreasing circle of pointless snobbery

[oznabrag]

Sapele marine mahogany plywood...
http://www.sailing-new-england.com/images/in_the_grasses-web.jpg
+1 for specifics on this design:). It looks reeeeaaaal good!

[ShagRock]

Posted by Eric Hvalsoe:
No argument however, that the 16 is a relatively expensive boat to build and will reach a pretty narrow niche. I just want to say that I believe in building boats, of whatever construction method, to be used - Amen!

I like this because it exemplifies a 'broader' mindset, one in which new or learning boat builders have some room to move; versus a 'take it or leave it' attitude, which tends to turn a person away..intended or not.

[Rigadog]

Twas the devil that devised plywood, to bedevil men's imaginations with dreams of easy days beneath the atoll's palm, heads resting in the laps of bare chested Polynesian girls while just off shore a mess of plywood and glue tugs at the anchorline.

[Candyfloss]

All together now, sing along....

If you go out in the woods today be sure of a big surprise
If you go out in the woods today you'd better go in disguise
For every tree that ever there was has been cut down, the reason? because
That's the way the old blokes built their sailboats.

If you go out in the woods today you'd better not go alone
It's depressing out in the woods today much nicer to stay at home
Log onto the Forum you can see the Armchair Admirals shooting the breeze
Trying to tell you how to build your sailboat.

[Bob Cleek]

I fear the term "elitism" was coined by the inferior.

Answer me this question: Why is it that when the knackers at the yard put the chainsaw to a plywood or fibreglass boat (or more usually, just drive the forklift forks through it, bust it up and throw it in the dump truck), there's never any "wake." Nobody really pays any attention, save to grab a fitting or two, if there is anything worth grabbing?

On the other hand, on the far less frequent occasions when a traditionally built wooden boat is broken up, guys drop what they are doing all around the harbor and come by to study how she was built, how she held up, and to lament the passing of a once great old girl... and then grab whatever salvage they can, which in most instances is far more valuable than the chromed potmetal on the plywood and glass boats.

There are many well performing, nice looking plywood boats, just chock full of fun and usefulness, but, to paraphrase the cigar ad, "A plywood boat is just a boat, but a traditionally built wooden boat is a YACHT."


http://bokertov.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451bc4a69e2011168fab78b970c-800wi

[oznabrag]

Twas the devil that devised plywood, to bedevil men's imaginations with dreams of easy days beneath the atoll's palm, heads resting in the laps of bare chested Polynesian girls while just off shore a mess of plywood and glue tugs at the anchorline.


The thing one must always remember about the Devil, is that he can't get you if he lies to you.:D

[oznabrag]

I fear the term "elitism" was coined by the inferior. "A plywood boat is just a boat, but a traditionally built wooden boat is a YACHT."



A boat built for pleasure is a yacht. There have been a plenty of wooden workboats built.

Speakin to one post up-thread, both England and Greece have, at various times in their histories, completely denuded their forests in the name of building their Navies.

John T

[erster]

I fear the term "elitism" was coined by the inferior.

Answer me this question: Why is it that when the knackers at the yard put the chainsaw to a plywood or fibreglass boat (or more usually, just drive the forklift forks through it, bust it up and throw it in the dump truck), there's never any "wake." Nobody really pays any attention, save to grab a fitting or two, if there is anything worth grabbing?

On the other hand, on the far less frequent occasions when a traditionally built wooden boat is broken up, guys drop what they are doing all around the harbor and come by to study how she was built, how she held up, and to lament the passing of a once great old girl... and then grab whatever salvage they can, which in most instances is far more valuable than the chromed potmetal on the plywood and glass boats.

There are many well performing, nice looking plywood boats, just chock full of fun and usefulness, but, to paraphrase the cigar ad, "A plywood boat is just a boat, but a traditionally built wooden boat is a YACHT."


http://bokertov.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451bc4a69e2011168fab78b970c-800wi
First off, you need to get out more and excersize. Next you need to make an appointment to have your nails done. Maybe Ms. Margo can give you some hints on the right color.

By your reply its apparent that you must boat and own an ordinary boat. When I go to any and all boat ramps in either one of my boats, the normal launching time is about 45 minutes even if they is no trailer half submerged or waiting to launch because of the gawkers and talkers. When I especially take Popsicle to the ramp, if there is ten people there, ten people will want to help me rig and assist me in the launching of the boat and will protect it from any rough edges and barnacles along the docks until I can load my queen on board and sail away. Many also will ask me to make a few passes so that they can take photos of the boat too.

When I am on the water, million dollar yachts will go out of their way to wonder close enough so that all the cameras onboard will be afforded a close up shot. We get all thumbs up and in many cases we will alter our course for a while, even luffing the sails so that I can reply to the gawkers. In many cases the same nice folks will tell me about when they were young and the joys of their own parents boats all made of wood. In many cases they will also tell me about their little plywood skiff that they first learned to water ski behind and wished that they still had the boat.

I am truely sorry that you are not witnessing these experiences.:cool:

[Bob Cleek]

Like I said, there's too damn many people who don't know diddly about boats out on the water these days! What's the point of sailing if you have to put up with all those squackers and gawkers all day long.

(Good thing 'ersters are shellfish. I you were a swimming fish, you'd have been in the pan long ago, quick as you are at taking the bait. LOL)

[erster]

Like I said, there's too damn many people who don't know diddly about boats out on the water these days! What's the point of sailing if you have to put up with all those squackers and gawkers all day long.

(Good thing 'ersters are shellfish. I you were a swimming fish, you'd have been in the pan long ago, quick as you are at taking the bait. LOL)

It was either that or I could have pointed out that you did admit to those fine and outstanding specimens of traditional wooden boats were being sawn up for what reason ifin those fine specimens were indeed fine and superior specimens.:cool::D:p Now what was your point again????? LOL!

I am reminded of the story of the man that went into the redlight house and ordered up the finest in the house. When the two went back and began to remove their clothes, the lady looked at him and ask who did he intend on pleasing with that thing? He replied "ME".:D

[cybulski]

He replied "ME".:D[/quote]
kinda says it all huh? :)

[Captain Intrepid]

Mhmmm. It's all about what makes you happy. I'm considering building a really cheap little boat, just because I want to get out on the water this summer. My budget is close to zero, and I don't plan on it lasting years and years. So I'd be quite happy with something made out of cheap plywood, even luan perhaps. If it's going to cost me more than $100, I probably won't be able to afford it. On the other hand, over the next few years I'm hoping to help with the construction of a roughly 100 foot wooden pilot schooner that should last a great number of years and will be built more or less traditionally. That'd make me pleased as punch. So there's room for everything.

[Tar Devil]

So there's room for everything.

The thread should end with that.

[GBVT]

http://www.pdracer.com/
That's a start. Google Michalak he's designed built and written about cheap plywood boats. There are other places on the great interweb where folks happily discuss building out of cheap materials. For some folks wooden boats have to look a certain way and be built out of specific stuff or their panties get all bunched up. The time argument is a nonstarter unless you are a pro you will never recover $$$ from time spent in hobby boats. Safety is also silly, unless you are going blue water or cold water. Both of those require specific consideration regardless of the wood your floating on.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

So there's room for everything.

As someone who has been and will be very far from shore in an 8' pram I can assure you there aint no room for half measures when your existence depends on a boat the size of a bathtub. Going far from shore in bigbox luan is not something that would lay easily on my mind. If you can break a corner off your plywood with one hand it doesn't belong in a boat.

[oznabrag]

If you can break a corner off your plywood with one hand it doesn't belong in a boat.

Now THAT sounds like good advice!

[pipefitter]

As someone who has been and will be very far from shore in an 8' pram I can assure you there aint no room for half measures when your existence depends on a boat the size of a bathtub. Going far from shore in bigbox luan is not something that would lay easily on my mind. If you can break a corner off your plywood with one hand it doesn't belong in a boat.

That's true as well but most people pretty much know at least that much and in most cases to the opposite extreme. Many, if not most amateur builders tend to overbuild, over brace, screw, paint etc. Typically, when many people ask about alternative and less expensive materials, it seems to be more towards the big box store equivalent to marine panels. Some more experienced builders may use the cheaper and less structurally adequate materials for a form and know how to let the glass and coatings do the work. I recall replacing wood stringers in a fiberglass hull that were wrapped in fiberglass that had rotted away under the glass. When we rebuilt it, we engineered the glass so that if the wood rotted away, the fiberglass channels that we formed around the wood could structurally stand alone without it.

Look how often D-fir plywood is recommended in place of some of the higher rated marine panels. Most of the D-fir panels is really not boat building wood but is "marine exterior" plywood, which is really only suitable for waterfront homes. It would need the same protective treatments as any "exterior" panels. I would never recommend marine exterior panels for below water line without significant barrier treatments and yet it is done here all the time. The least D-fir panel I could dare to recommend would be a quality MDO.

Here is a direct comparison of Meranti BS1088 vs D-fir "marine". D-fir "marine exterior" is what many boat builders used to core their "chop" boats with. At best it was like the next best thing to true marine plywood. The deciding factor being how many fish one had to catch before they realized the profit on a hull. To be fair, the Meranti was covered in dirt and leaves/compost for at least twice the duration of the fir that sat atop the leaves yet both species of wood are listed as "moderately durable". It goes to show that many people are taken in by the "marine" statement of the products they buy. It was professional builders who told me the difference many years ago when you could actually get a true D-fir marine plywood. The difference between true D-fir marine plywood and "marine exterior" is about the same as say between BS1088 and BS 6566. I have not seen a worthy D-fir marine plywood in a very long time. The first indicator these days, one only has to look at the ply count that makes up the panel. The old D-fir marine plywood had, IIRC, 13 equal plies in 3/4". Now it's maybe 9 ply and the exterior veneers are very thin.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/tigmaster/P5050027.jpg

Another consideration is structural panel orientation. These marine panels, with their paper thin exterior veneers, make orientation of the panel in regards to the framing nearly moot. With plywood containing an odd number of plies, will have the majority of the veneers grain running with the length. Modern marine panels essentially take nearly one whole veneer thickness in regards to structural grain orientation out of the panel. It makes a huge difference structurally and this is exactly why so many panels create that starved horse effect between frames. If the veneers were of equal thickness, you could rely on the panel supporting itself between frames in regards to grain orientation.

The only way that manufacturers could realistically make up for the lack of external veneer thickness would be to place some of the inner veneers at 45 degree bias to the alternate veneers

[peter radclyffe]

All together now, sing along....

If you go out in the woods today be sure of a big surprise
If you go out in the woods today you'd better go in disguise
For every tree that ever there was has been cut down, the reason? because
That's the way the old blokes built their sailboats.

If you go out in the woods today you'd better not go alone
It's depressing out in the woods today much nicer to stay at home
Log onto the Forum you can see the Armchair Admirals shooting the breeze
Trying to tell you how to build your sailboat.
great

[peter radclyffe]

It was either that or I could have pointed out that you did admit to those fine and outstanding specimens of traditional wooden boats were being sawn up for what reason ifin those fine specimens were indeed fine and superior specimens.:cool::D:p Now what was your point again????? LOL!

I am reminded of the story of the man that went into the redlight house and ordered up the finest in the house. When the two went back and began to remove their clothes, the lady looked at him and ask who did he intend on pleasing with that thing? He replied "ME".:D
this cant really be what you do with your boat, it's too much information for us

[stevedwyer]

oznabrag and retrowood,
Her lines are taken off fig. 77 ASSC drawn by Howard Chapelle of a South Jersey Beach Skiff circa 1895.
I gave an 8% proportionate added beam and modified her for glued-lapstrake construction.
I designed a gaff rig for her when she was launched in 2005, but last year sailed her with a sprit rig which the original plan.
Although slower in light air, the sprit is so handy, it's become my favorite.

[oznabrag]

oznabrag and retrowood,
Her lines are taken off fig. 77 ASSC drawn by Howard Chapelle of a South Jersey Beach Skiff circa 1895.
I gave an 8% proportionate added beam and modified her for glued-lapstrake construction.
I designed a gaff rig for her when she was launched in 2005, but last year sailed her with a sprit rig which the original plan.
Although slower in light air, the sprit is so handy, it's become my favorite.

Thanks Steve. She looks great!

John T

[aeronca52]

My first boat from 'scratch' was a 16' Folbot Cayat partial kit in 1969. It included the stem, stern, two frames and a paper pattern for the plywood sides. The plywood for the sides, bottom and top was construction grade from the local home center, (but plywood was better back then) Glassed the bottom and up the sides about 5 inches. Waterproofed the insides with something like Wormleys. The sealer was free from a friend's dad.
The boat has been inside when not being used and is still as strong and tight as the day first launched on the Lehigh River.
The second boat from scratch was a Bolger beatau, 25 feet end to end. 1/2" plywood from the home center (again) and since money was t-i-g-h-t I actually (hold your breath here) used old packing crates for some of the framing. Not just any old pieces, I sorted through the pile for the best. Again, glassed the bottom and sides and painted the inside with grey porch & deck enamel. It also sits inside on a trailer and is as sound as it was on launch day in 1989 at Mach Chunk Lake. Of course the big factor here is being kept inside.
But they are built of plywood and have enabled me to get out on the water. This in turn has enabled my family and me to enjoy boating and have interest in boating mags such as WB. I feel my boats are just as much wood as any other, and by subscribing to WB and MAIB I support the industry just as much as any other boater.
What do you think? (be nice)
BTW I used Polyester resin and can hammer on the boats with a rubber mallet and it is still hard and securly fastened.

[EyeInHand]

ShaiL,

I did exactly what you are suggesting for my first boat, too, which also was a small skiff, 12 feet long. I didn't want to put a huge amount of money into a beginner's project, either. Frankly, I wasn't worthy of good quality materials. The idea of violating some very fine pieces of beautiful and expensive wood with my poor execution, lack of knowledge and rough skills I knew would make me far more depressed than the prospect of my first "learning boat" falling apart in a few years.

That was six years ago, and my little lumber yard plywood skiff is still going strong. I still take it fishing in the river, and a big plus is I don't worry about banging it up on the rocks or ramming the trailer or knuckleheaded stuff like that. It's just a fun knockaround boat. A little paint every couple of years if I feel like it makes it look good as new. Or not, and I don't care.

What I wanted more than anything was to get some experience working with the materials before I invested a lot of time, effort and money into something really nice (which was the long term goal). Epoxy and fiberglass are expensive, and tricky to work with for a novice, but pretty much anything you seal with it and then paint or varnish will last a very long time. You could seriously build a boat out of sheets of styrofoam and coat it with that stuff and it would work fine - I've seen it done in a pretty big sailboat, and that's how surfboards are made. Heck, you could probably make one out of cardboard or paper mache.

In my opinion, if you've never built a boat before, but think you might want to do something nice later, start with a small quick and dirty project first using as many of the same materials as you can. I learned a lot with my first epoxy and fiberglass layup that's coming in extremely handy now on my current project. My first one was a mess, all lumpy, runny and way too heavy, and it would make me sick if I were just discovering why now. Plus, my woodworking skills are much better. I also learned more about what kind of boat I REALLY wanted after using the skiff for a couple of years. All said and done, my first boat is like my first girlfriend - not who I married, but I'm still fond of her.

I think it all comes down to your expectations, and what you want out of it. My skiff has 1/2" AC plywood on the bottom and 1/4" on the sides, deck and centerboard case. Bench seats and trim of pine. Because the plywood doesn't have uniform density throughout, you'll get some unexpected lumps, curves not quite fair, chunks falling out of knots you'll have to fill, etc.. If you can live with that, no problem. Now I put an electric trolling motor on it and go fishing in the river and swamps, or put up the sail and take it in protected waters or even out in the Atlantic on calm days. I'll still take it fishing when my "nice" boats are done, because it will make me cry the first time they get dragged over a rock.

Cheers, and good luck!

[jclays]

Since this thread has brought up the subject of different woods especially plywood. I was surprised to read that Ocume though being the best to finish and the lightest had a low rot tolerance. I dont know why I had thought it was the Cadillac of the Marine ply's. I am building with Marine Fir plywood. I know she doesnt finish the nicest but what is its rot tolerance as compared to the Ocume and Merranti plywoods. My skiff will be a work boat and live under a tarp outside on a rack. CPES and paint only and as needed as the years go by.

[retrowood]

oznabrag and retrowood,
Her lines are taken off fig. 77 ASSC drawn by Howard Chapelle of a South Jersey Beach Skiff circa 1895.
I gave an 8% proportionate added beam and modified her for glued-lapstrake construction.
I designed a gaff rig for her when she was launched in 2005, but last year sailed her with a sprit rig which the original plan.
Although slower in light air, the sprit is so handy, it's become my favorite.

Thanks Steve,
I'll pull my copy and study it over a cup of joe.
Very nice job, She's a classic!

Retrowood

[slidercat]

I hope I don't make anyone mad by saying this, but it seems abundantly clear that this forum is full of people for whom having the "right" boat is far more important than actually going sailing.

I don't guess there's anything wrong with this, but it seems a little shallow. I know a woman who has the most magnificent kitchen you'll ever see, with a vast stainless stove and a copper hood hung with thousands of dollars worth of cookpots. Her spice collection is vast-- but they're all too old to be good for anything but mulch, because she rarely cooks.

[oznabrag]

I hope I don't make anyone mad by saying this, but it seems abundantly clear that this forum is full of people for whom having the "right" boat is far more important than actually going sailing...snippage...

I think the snobs are about, but that makes this place no different than any Wal-Mart.:D

My own sense of the average individual on this forum is that he's a brutal pragmatist who will do what he needs to do to get his skinny buns out on the water. And if he looks good doing it, so much the better.

At any rate, we aren't gonna let a buncha snoots tell us we can't do something, are we?:cool:

John T

[peter radclyffe]

I think the snobs are about, but that makes this place no different than any Wal-Mart.:D

My own sense of the average individual on this forum is that he's a brutal pragmatist who will do what he needs to do to get his skinny buns out on the water. And if he looks good doing it, so much the better.

At any rate, we aren't gonna let a buncha snoots tell us we can't do something, are we?:cool:

John T
no way, grab what you can find, fasten it all together, & go sailing