Mizzen Backhaul

[Pytheas]

I am considering adding backhaul lines to the mizzen of my Caledonia Yawl and am concerned that the stern is not wide enough to provide a point to pull from that will provide enough mechanical advantage.

When tacking with little load on board in strong wind, windage overcomes inertia and the boat quickly comes to a stop. Backhauling the mizzen works well but requires considerable force when I have tried it with a line to the boom end held in my hand. Passing it through a fairlead on the gunnel will improve the angle of pull but I am wondering if that will be enough. The ice is gone here and I will be testing a solution soon but would like to improve the chances that I get it right the first time.

Anyone have experience in this? Please share.

[Hwyl]

Seems like a sledgehammer solution, did you contact Iain Oughtred, I know he's proud of the way his boats sail and backwinding the mizzen to tack is the mark of a poor design.

Have you tried bearing away a little before you tack to give you some speed, maybe cranking the mizzen in as you tack. Do you cross the boat to early, I know weight does not make much difference, but remember the rule: The tiller goes across, the boom goes across and then the helmsman goes across.

[StevenBauer]

I sailed a Caledonia Yawl at the Small Reach Regatta last summer and the owner (Chris) taught me some things about sailing the boat that were counter intuitive. It sounds to me like you have the mizzen sheeted in too much. Loosen it up a little and then try your tack. Sheeted in tight it tends to make the boat point directly into the wind like a weather vane. Ease off a little and she handles much differently. Have you brought this up on the Caledonia Yawl forum?


Steven

[JimConlin]

I have a yawl rigged boat that sometimes tacks 'indecisively'.
It seems to help if i free the mizzen sheet as the boat comes head to wind.

[Brian Palmer]

There has been debate among Elver owners (another light yawl) about whether or not they tack well. I have also found that it is best to cast off the mizzen when tacking or it tends cause the boat to stop turning once it is pointed into the wind.

Brian

[kenjamin]

Check this out:

http://www.mavc2002.com/cyforum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=668&sid=23dbfac478b15be464c76a62f1d59906

[James McMullen]

You beat me to it, Comrade Kenjamin--good job!

Backing your fores'l is just as handy and much more convenient.

[John B]

Try hanging onto the jib a little bit longer as you tack. While I agree that dumping the mizzen will help ,I also agree wholeheartedly that there is no way that this should be necessary . There's something else going on... maybe you need to tune your rigs forward a bit and look at your sails..check the leach's aren't hooked and dragging the boat over... get the draft forward

[StevenBauer]

Try hanging onto the jib a little bit longer as you tack.

Just a wee problem here: no jib on the Caledonia Yawl rig.



Steven

[Pytheas]

Thanks to all for the help.

Next a clarification. My problem is all before crossing the wind. Once the boat is head to wind it does well – at most I have to reach up and hold the main boom toward the new weather side for a few seconds.

Here’s my immediate reaction to your suggestions.
On the page Kenjamin had linked James states, “It is when there is too much or not enough wind, or when there are waves and chop interfering with your momentum...” This is probably a better description of my problem than I stated. It usually happens passing Long Point at Lake Chautauqua – there is often stronger wind there and a high, confused chop. The chop is probably a bigger factor than I have thought.

James’ instructions for upwind and tacking describe well my usual procedures, and they work well except for those occasional cases like crossing Long Point mentioned above. In those cases the boat will loose way, if that is the right way to say it, and continue turning into the wind with no forward movement (weather-vaneing). Since the boat has not reached head-on the wind backhauling the foresail is awkward. That is where the idea of backhauling lines to keep the mizzen driving until the boat crosses the wind.

Bearing away before tack to pick up speed: I do that.

Crossing the boat early: I just might be guilty of that… gotta pay attention.

Mizzen sheeted in too much: Before starting the tack the mizzen is let out as far as possible without it luffing. As the tack is begun, if I anticipate this problem, I sheet in the mizzen hard to help make the boat turn. Could I be causing the loss of momentum this way? If I understand Steven properly that is what he is suggesting. I let go the mizzen sheet once head-on the wind.

Again, thanks for the help. And James, your “How to Sail the Lug Yawl” is clear and concise, very useful.

[James McMullen]

Thanks for the compliment, Pytheas. Here's another trick that might help when you are having trouble steering her all the way around in a chop:

You can cause a lot of drag and slow down your boat at exactly the wrong moment by throwing your rudder too far over, which disturbs the the flow past the rudder, causing it to stall. You can avoid this problem by setting stops to prevent your rudder from ever swinging over any further than 45 degrees at the very most. Also be sure that you initiate your turn for a tack with a smooth and fluid sweep with the tiller rather than just jerkily throwing the helm over.

I'm headed out in my own lug yawl tomorrow morning for a three day sail & oar trip in the San Juan islands--can't wait! Yay, springtime!

[Canoeyawl]

Seems like a sledgehammer solution, did you contact Iain Oughtred, I know he's proud of the way his boats sail and backwinding the mizzen to tack is the mark of a poor design.


All this talk about how to sail a yawl is interesting...
What is going on here? Is there something wrong with this design?

[Pytheas]

San Juan Islands! I'm truely envious, though it might be "dangerous" for me to be in those waters. I might start a long frolic north instead of going back home.

Canoeyawl, I don't think there is any problem with lug yawls as a design or of the Caledonia. This is just a matter of a guy who has learned much of his sailing skills by himself often by making mistakes - me.

That brings me to a point, sort of, about sailing in the Small Reach Regatta. I have been there twice and each time have come away with insights in boat handling. Sailing, or doing anything that requires skill, with others that are better at it is an excellent way to learn. Just an errant thought.

[paladin]

Not to get overly technical.....measure the rudder angle and set the stops as close to 42.5 degrees as you can...I'll assume the rudder was built to spec and there's a 3/8ths inch flat on the trailing edge.....and if you really wanna get into it and have fun, trailing edge flaps raised about 3/16ths of an inch will improve the lift, and strips properly placed near the leading edge will work as stall delays.....works great on fast trimarans.....

[John B]

Just a wee problem here: no jib on the Caledonia Yawl rig.



Steven


dang.

[Hwyl]

Just a wee problem here: no jib on the Caledonia Yawl rig.



Steven


dang.

Accursed catboat

[wtarzia]

I sometimes have the same problem on my outrigger canoe using a cat-ketch with standing lugs. I discovered that part of it came from laziness: I had my mizzen tied off on a horn cleat, whereas sometimes it needs to be slacked off *at the right moment* to tack. In light wind I can back the main for the tack if my momentum is not just right. In strong wind, no way. So I added a cam-cleat for the mizzen-sheet "ergonomically situated" so that I could quickly slack off the mizzen and then just as quickly readjust it. I made this change at the end of last season, but it seemed to ease tacking and in general made me less lazy in constantly attending to the mizzen as needed. -- Wade

[Thad]

Chapelle says the Block Island boats were "sailed around" like you are thinking. I think about putting something like that on SEA HARMONY for control purposes, using the wind. She most of her life sheeted to the counter corners but now carries a boomkin sheeting to the center.

[Woxbox]

You can cause a lot of drag and slow down your boat at exactly the wrong moment by throwing your rudder too far over,

In my experience, this is the single biggest mistake people used to sailing modern dinghies make when they get into a traditional type sailboat. You can't rush things. But over trimming the mizzen should help.

[Daniel Noyes]

Is there a sloop-gunter rig for the Cal Yawl hull? like the Ness Yawl alternate rig.
If so does this rig have trouble in stays?
Is the boat built to the plans, rudder and centerboard?
I built a Beachcomber-Alpha dory last summer, similar size and weight hull, and have put a few miles on it at the SRR and Newbury to Gloucester.
With the jib up or down the boat tacks incredibly reliably, I just let go of the tiller lines and the boat brings it's self around, in chop 2 ft (at SRR) 4ft (Gloucester) and 8 ft. (off Portsmouth NH.) conditions.
Here is a video of the boat tacking, video starts after I have let go the rudder lines and the boat is almost head to wind, waterline is still showing on port side, the jib was not held aback to help her around, falls off on new tack and sheet in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHjTMVJL7u4&feature=channel_page
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[Clinton B Chase]

Thad, how is it with the boomkin. I am drawing a boat and need to either have a boomkin or try to sheet to the corners but it is tight. Less strain with a boomkin?

Clint

[bloggs68]

I generally find that the mizzen is self tending in a tack but certainly can have a dramatic effect on helm balance whilst sailing if it isn't sheeted correctly. With this CY rig (lug yawl), you can let go of the tiller and steer the boat with the mizzen sheet alone.

The other replies all have good pointers like keeping up the speed before the tack etc but I don't think you should have to back-wind the mizzen to get around.

Here's some footage of the same design and rig sailing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrY1CIuVj5A
Not many tacks in it but if you fast forward to the last minute or so you will see a couple and the mizzen isn't touched at all through the tack except to trim after she has already gone about.

Sorry about the shaky camera.

AD

[Woxbox]

Now that's one relaxing video. Got any more?

[Ian McColgin]

James' remarks and reference are excellent.

Even when you have a jib, backwinding it is a very last resort as that is taking weigh off.

Much better the notion of basicly hauling the mizzen to weather as you tack, so it's a bit like an out board pushing the boat around. That also works finastkind on some larger boats, like Granuaile, that are, shall we say?, composed and leisurely tacking.

As with a catboat, however, nothing is quite so marvelous as knowing how to get out of irons by sailing backwards. Practice this on a flat sea quiet day first. Let the boat settle dead into the wind and as she gathers sternway, practice steering her straight and then to either side. It helps to look astern as the helm moves will then be intuitivly obvious. Remember that the rudder in reverse is taking an unfair strain and you don't want to let it swing more than perhaps two points (about 20 degrees) either way. Keep a good grip on the tiller or wheel.

Any sailor should know how to back down anyway, but this trick will get you right out of irons. Just get her backing good and steer off on your new tack letting the sail well out and luffing till you're backing on just about a beam reach. Then you can trim and, carefully in time with gathering weigh, center the helm.

G'luck

[Thad]

Clint, Angle affects strain on the haul that can be handled, but more affecting the effectiveness of sheeting as with too much leverage more pressure will stretch a sheet a little and change the sheeting angle a lot. Strain on the hull should be easily dealt with. If you look at pictures of 19th century harbor scenes you will see that most of the small craft were rigged to sail and a large proportion carried split rigs. Many a yawl on these boats had the mizzen stuck right in the stern, requiring a boomkin, often a single spar extending off one of the quarters.

[PaulGrun]

For reasons I don't understand, I have noticed the same thing with my Eel canoe yawl...she tacks much better if I ease the mizzen sheet as she is coming head to wind. It is counter-intuitive, and I cannot explain it, but if the mizzen is sheeted in too hard while coming head to wind, she will indeed stall and fail to get head to wind. Not always, but it's something I look out for when preparing to tack.

[John B]

I really don't get this thread.. there are such opposing opinions as to what works and what should work, I'm amazed by it.
counter intuitive?
Leave your main (and/or headsail down if you have one) to exaggerate the principle, set your mizzen , sheet it in and see what happens. You'll get stuck in irons and thats that. Great for a sternboard , great for going fishing, but hardly recommended for tacking.
I go back to sail shape and draught... power up for the tack and do it. Whatever advantage winding a mizzen to windward before going through the eye.. perhaps some lever arm effect only to the centrepoint or eye of the tack, has got to be badly mitigated by putting the brakes on by doing it. Its just a ridiculous thing to have to do in a normal tacking situation.
low speed manouvreing is different, I get that, thats fun playing around with sails on the ends and I'll dump main and jib to start a low speed tack off an anchor or sternboard perhaps but geez.. normal tack with wind????

[bloggs68]

Now that's one relaxing video. Got any more?

The CY is a relaxing boat to sail - quite stable and forgiving.

I don't have any more on the CY but there is another one for a little 10' Gartside dinghy sailing in 15-18kts. see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dPX5Ee9EWw

When you are a better boatbuilder than video editor, these seem to take a long time to make (my kids aren't old enough yet to do it for me!) I'll get another one out in the next few months on a Tirrik we are finishing and one on ribbing and fastening a clinker dinghy (another Gartside design starting in July).

regards,

AD

[Nicholas Whitman]

Call it a function of design. I’ve experienced the Caledonia Yawl’s unwillingness to tack in a stiff breeze and a choppy sea. I don’t think you handling sounds off the mark.

To give yourself the best possible chance for success you must do everything right and in sequence, so yes; release the mizzen, head off to gain speed, do not slam the tiller over – but sail her around.

Here is where I think the breakdown occurs. The Caledonia Yawl is proportionally very high sided and there isn’t all that much boat below the waterline. What is there is a full-length keel, which is very prominent under the sharp entry of the bow. In a tacking situation like this the centerboard is fully extended. In many boats this would act as a pivot point around which you can spin the boat. A Beetle Cat for example has rocker in the keel forward of the centerboard and what little keel there is almost flush with the garboard planks. So there is minimal lateral resistance forward – and these boat are very maneuverable. Or you might call them a bit squirrelly. That full length CY keel keeps the boat tracking in a straight line. It is amazing how effortlessly this design covers ground. So, as usual there is a trade off. Tracking for maneuverability.

Back to that difficult high wind high wave tack. Above the waterline the CY has a very high bow. One can find this amount of freeboard on boats twice her length. Is she a dry ride? Defiantly. But at what cost? Windage. When you ride up on a confused 4 foot Buzzards Bay Chop that afternoon SW wind grabs your bow and pushes it right back, thwarting your attempt to come about.

In addition to being high and dry the boat is light, which is very appealing to a trailer sailor. A twenty foot boat weighing less than 400 lbs sounds great, but again we have trade offs. Being so light she not only rides high but also lacks momentum. The consensus at the CY site is that the boat needs at least 150lbs of fixed ballast. I’ll take that and a couple of passengers too … and even still taking all of the above into account … in these conditions I would always allow room for a redo if your tack fails.

[kenjamin]

Call it a function of design. I’ve experienced the Caledonia Yawl’s unwillingness to tack in a stiff breeze and a choppy sea. I don’t think you handling sounds off the mark.

To give yourself the best possible chance for success you must do everything right and in sequence, so yes; release the mizzen, head off to gain speed, do not slam the tiller over – but sail her around.

Here is where I think the breakdown occurs. The Caledonia Yawl is proportionally very high sided and there isn’t all that much boat below the waterline. What is there is a full-length keel, which is very prominent under the sharp entry of the bow. In a tacking situation like this the centerboard is fully extended. In many boats this would act as a pivot point around which you can spin the boat. A Beetle Cat for example has rocker in the keel forward of the centerboard and what little keel there is almost flush with the garboard planks. So there is minimal lateral resistance forward – and these boat are very maneuverable. Or you might call them a bit squirrelly. That full length CY keel keeps the boat tracking in a straight line. It is amazing how effortlessly this design covers ground. So, as usual there is a trade off. Tracking for maneuverability.

Back to that difficult high wind high wave tack. Above the waterline the CY has a very high bow. One can find this amount of freeboard on boats twice her length. Is she a dry ride? Defiantly. But at what cost? Windage. When you ride up on a confused 4 foot Buzzards Bay Chop that afternoon SW wind grabs your bow and pushes it right back, thwarting your attempt to come about.

In addition to being high and dry the boat is light, which is very appealing to a trailer sailor. A twenty foot boat weighing less than 400 lbs sounds great, but again we have trade offs. Being so light she not only rides high but also lacks momentum. The consensus at the CY site is that the boat needs at least 150lbs of fixed ballast. I’ll take that and a couple of passengers too … and even still taking all of the above into account … in these conditions I would always allow room for a redo if your tack fails.

Well said Nick. As a fairly newbie sailor, I've been caught in irons on my CY more than a few times :o but thanks to James's excellent directions:
http://www.mavc2002.com/cyforum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=668
I've learned to sail backwards to easily get out of it. Fortunately for me my CY is usually weighted down with so much fishing gear, flotation, extra oars, water ballast and passengers that her windage is lower than normal and her momentum is greater.

[Pytheas]

Thanks Nick, I think you have laid out the physics of the problem nicely. I have gone to the trouble of getting lead for ballast and found that about 150 lb. does improve things. This year I intend to try 200 lb. and see if there is more improvement.

[john welsford]

In addition to all the above, it pays to remember that this is a fairly fine ended boat, and the Caledonia Yawl is more so because of the sharp stern. In heavy weather there is a tendecy to huddle down the after end away from all the wet stuff being thrown about by the boats movement forward and with the boat consequently trimmed down by the stern the center of lateral plane moves aft which can make her very difficult to tack.
Can I suggest that next time out you toss everything of any weight right forward, and shift skipper and crew as far forward as the tiller ( with extension? ) will allow and see how she feels.
Comments about the sail trim are worth taking on board, and I would also suggest that with a boat that you know will be a problem to tack there is an instinctive tendency to sheet in and pinch ( point to high toward the wind) which slows the boat costing momentum that should have taken her through the tack. Try easing the sheets slightly on both sails, sail her full and by, and go for speed, then sail her around just as the bow pitches down after coming through a wave ( bow down trim, CLR moves forward momentarily and she will pivot more readily).
Light boats with lots of windage need very positive handling rather than hesitation.

JohnWelsford



I am considering adding backhaul lines to the mizzen of my Caledonia Yawl and am concerned that the stern is not wide enough to provide a point to pull from that will provide enough mechanical advantage.

When tacking with little load on board in strong wind, windage overcomes inertia and the boat quickly comes to a stop. Backhauling the mizzen works well but requires considerable force when I have tried it with a line to the boom end held in my hand. Passing it through a fairlead on the gunnel will improve the angle of pull but I am wondering if that will be enough. The ice is gone here and I will be testing a solution soon but would like to improve the chances that I get it right the first time.

Anyone have experience in this? Please share.