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cs
04-16-2009, 10:05 PM
Here in town a 9 year old kid got mad at his Mom and started a fire in a Dollar General Store. (http://www.wrcbtv.com/Global/story.asp?s=10184704) Over a million dollars in damage.

The kid is being charged with aggravated arson and reckless endangerment.

I guess the question is should a 9 year old child face the same charges that an adult would?

I'm not sure. On one hand the kid does need to be held responsible but on the other he is only 9 years old.

Chad

James McMullen
04-16-2009, 10:12 PM
A nine year old kid is not an adult. There's no question that the kid needs some form of correction/counselling/reform school or whatever, but it is ridiculous to treat a nine year old as if he had the same mental and moral capacity as a full grown adult human. Putting a nine year old in jail will pretty much guarantee that he will never, ever, ever grow up and make a positive contribution to society. Instead, you will be training him how to be an inmate when he grows up.

Glen Longino
04-16-2009, 10:29 PM
Prosecutors should be held on leashes and choke collars like dangerous dogs.
I don't know about other states, but in Texas prosecutors are elected.
They are so afraid of losing votes that they will prosecute any crime rather than be called "soft on crime".
If a baby fell out of its crib in Texas and injured a drunk crack head passed out on the floor, the slimy prosecutor would haul the infant before the court. The gutless bastards!

2MeterTroll
04-16-2009, 10:29 PM
he's 9 his parents should be up on charges. that what the whole child hood thing is about.

cybulski
04-17-2009, 05:30 AM
I think you guys are right, he is only 9,
But at the same time we should consider the fact, when adults do things like this, and we see that they did similar acts as children, then we say well we should have seen the signs, we werent paying attention , maby we could have stoped it.
Who do you think will foot the bill for the damage?

Chris Coose
04-17-2009, 05:41 AM
He can get charged with anything.
How he is processed is state to state. Unlikely a kid that age shall get prosecuted as an adult.
They wrote juvenile justice laws for this reason.

I think I heard recently there are near 100 kids serving life in the US because the DA's got their ugly crimes tried in adult court.

cs
04-17-2009, 05:44 AM
This is a tough one for me. The kid surely does not need to go to prison, but it seems apparent to me that his parents have seemed to have lost control over him. The punishment should fit the crime, but the kid is only 9.

BTW I bet that we, as payers of insurance premiums, will be footing the million plus dollar bill.

Chad

ishmael
04-17-2009, 07:17 AM
I hate these stories. Only nine and well on his way to being labeled a criminal.

I'm not sure who to hold responsible here. At nine kids start to move out of their parent's umbrella. I know when I was that age -- though a pretty easy kid -- that I did some really stupid stuff. Burning up a store wasn't one of them.

Do they still have reformatories for young people? Someone who commits arson at that age is someone to keep an eye on. I don't think there's any question that you shouldn't charge him as an adult, but what do you do with him? A good kid's shrink for an evaluation would be a start, and I'll bet that's already been done. A highly structured school might help, or it might make matters worse.

Sad story.

stevebaby
04-17-2009, 07:52 AM
It is an absurdity to presume that a nine year old child could either understand the consequences of his/her actions with regard to the charges that may be brought, or be held criminally responsible.
To even contemplate charging or jailing a child of that age indicates what your country is becoming.
And it's not nice.

ishmael
04-17-2009, 08:21 AM
Steve,

Did you read the thread? No one here has said the kid should be charged as an adult. Where did you get that idea? A willful ignorance about America?

When I was just a bit older than this kid an annual field trip was to a local high school that had a planetarium. Mr Linderman, a science teacher, was the tour guide. We anticipated it every year because it was way cool, and it got us out the three Rs for half a day.

One time, some bozo kid who never had the guts to step forward and confess, shot a paper clip with a rubber band. Linderman stopped the show, turned up the lights, and read us the riot act. I was pushed back in my seat, even though I hadn't fired the paper clip and didn't know who did. He gave us a memorable lecture on what it means to be an adult. Oh, he was pissed. Stern and impressive. I'll bet there wasn't a kid in that hall who hasn't a strong impression of it still.

Anyway, what to do with a young firestarter? No, you don't charge them as an adult. The kid needs some help. I hope he finds it.

htom
04-17-2009, 08:38 AM
When the only tool you have is a hammer, all the problems look like nails.

Somehow the law doesn't seem to be the proper hammer here.

cs
04-17-2009, 08:47 AM
You're right it doesn't. I sure wish I knew the answer.

Chad

stevebaby
04-17-2009, 09:25 AM
Steve,

Did you read the thread? No one here has said the kid should be charged as an adult. Where did you get that idea? A willful ignorance about America?

When I was just a bit older than this kid an annual field trip was to a local high school that had a planetarium. Mr Linderman, a science teacher, was the tour guide. We anticipated it every year because it was way cool, and it got us out the three Rs for half a day.

One time, some bozo kid who never had the guts to step forward and confess, shot a paper clip with a rubber band. Linderman stopped the show, turned up the lights, and read us the riot act. I was pushed back in my seat, even though I hadn't fired the paper clip and didn't know who did. He gave us a memorable lecture on what it means to be an adult. Oh, he was pissed. Stern and impressive. I'll bet there wasn't a kid in that hall who hasn't a strong impression of it still.

Anyway, what to do with a young firestarter? No, you don't charge them as an adult. The kid needs some help. I hope he finds it.Yes, I read the original post which posed the question "...should a 9 year old child face the same charges that an adult should?'.
To which I responded in the negative.
The OP also stated that the child faced charges of "...aggravated arson and reckless endangerment." That's where I got the idea. Did you read the original post?
To which I responded and further respond as thus...
My understanding of the Common Law and Statutory Law of both England and Australia is that a child under the age of ten years is exempt from responsibility for criminal acts.
And rightly so IMO.

Canoeyawl
04-17-2009, 09:36 AM
Send him up the river so he can be properly trained to be a criminal. Just think how many law enforcement personnel will continue to be gainfully employed by the time he's 12, not to mention judges and prosecutors...It might even offset the "million dollar" claim.

Idiots --- It was an accident, that's why we have insurance.

Peerie Maa
04-17-2009, 09:48 AM
Here in the UK the age of criminal responsibility is set at ten, although there is debate about raising it. Below this age they cannot be charged with any offence. The way we deal with kids varies from ten to 14, and from 14 to 18. Read about it here:http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/CrimeJusticeAndTheLaw/Thejudicialsystem/DG_4003100

ishmael
04-17-2009, 09:58 AM
"Yes, I read the original post which posed the question "...should a 9 year old child face the same charges that an adult should?'."

Steve, it was a question about a very difficult situation. And to a person everyone who's posted said no, don't try this kid as an adult.

There is something going on that needs attention. The three main markers of a future sociopath are: Starting fires, cruelty to animals, and wetting the bed. A lot of kids go through phases where all three happen, and they don't grow up to be Ted Bundy. This major act of arson is a call for help, and I hope the kid gets it.

S/V Laura Ellen
04-17-2009, 10:03 AM
It isn't the charge that should relect the age (or other extenuating factor). It is the prosecution and sentensing that needs to be flexible due to these issues.

The kid should be charged with the crime. The trial should take place in a juvenile court (family court) and the sentence should take into account the age of the kid. At nine year of age the sentence should be slanted very heavily on the side of rehabilitation (councilling both for the kid and his parents) and education and not focus on punishment.

If the kids record can be sealed (very limited access to the conviction record) and if the kid remains clean of further crimes the conviction can be expunged (no criminal record as an adult).

But, please charge the kid, but find out the "why", it's important at that age to prevent recurrance. What the hell is going on with the kid or the family to cause thsi kind of behaviour?

paladin
04-17-2009, 10:31 AM
Wasn't too very long ago the kid would have been hung.

stevebaby
04-17-2009, 10:33 AM
It isn't the charge that should relect the age (or other extenuating factor). It is the prosecution and sentensing that needs to be flexible due to these issues.

The kid should be charged with the crime. The trial should take place in a juvenile court (family court) and the sentence should take into account the age of the kid. At nine year of age the sentence should be slanted very heavily on the side of rehabilitation (councilling both for the kid and his parents) and education and not focus on punishment.

If the kids record can be sealed (very limited access to the conviction record) and if the kid remains clean of further crimes the conviction can be expunged (no criminal record as an adult).

But, please charge the kid, but find out the "why", it's important at that age to prevent recurrance. What the hell is going on with the kid or the family to cause thsi kind of behaviour?At what age do you believe a child should not be held legally responsible for a criminal offence?

stevebaby
04-17-2009, 10:36 AM
Wasn't too very long ago the kid would have been hung.Horses are "hung". People are "hanged". And yes, you're quite correct otherwise.
Quite a few of the early settlers of Oz were children of a similar age who were charged with the same offences as adults and condemned to death by hanging ( as were adults at the time).
They were reprieved by some sensible Judges who took the only option offered by the law and sentenced them to transportation to the Colonies.

stevebaby
04-17-2009, 10:49 AM
"Yes, I read the original post which posed the question "...should a 9 year old child face the same charges that an adult should?'."

Steve, it was a question about a very difficult situation. And to a person everyone who's posted said no, don't try this kid as an adult.

There is something going on that needs attention. The three main markers of a future sociopath are: Starting fires, cruelty to animals, and wetting the bed. A lot of kids go through phases where all three happen, and they don't grow up to be Ted Bundy. This major act of arson is a call for help, and I hope the kid gets it.There is a difference between starting one fire and a persistent pattern of behaviour involving persistent fire-starting, cruelty to animals and bed-wetting.
On the available evidence, there is no indication whatsoever that this child has exhibited any of those behaviours.
"Cry for help" my arse. It's a kid who doesn't understand the consequences of his actions, like any other kid of the same age.

ishmael
04-17-2009, 10:59 AM
"There is a difference between starting one fire and a persistent pattern of behaviour involving persistent fire-starting, cruelty to animals and bed-wetting."

I agree with that. We don't know the story here. A kid's shrink with his wits about him might be able to suss it out a bit. A good one will be able to tell if this was anomalous or represents a pattern developing.

And I kinda hate putting kids under the microscope that way, but this was a major crime.

stevebaby
04-17-2009, 11:01 AM
When some clever lawyer latches on to this case and presents the fact that the child actually obtained the matches allegedly used to start the fire from the store that was burnt down then the question of liability may take a different turn altogether.

cs
04-17-2009, 11:31 AM
One thing that is clear in my mind, is that in some form or fashion the kid needs to be held accountable. What that form or fashion is I don't know. Luckily nobody was killed or hurt.

But something is amiss, I think this goes beyond a standard temper tantrum. My opinion only. But a kid that starts a fire in a store because his Mom wouldn't buy him a toy has some issues. Whether it be issues of his own or issues from his parents, I don't know.

But certainly he will not be put in an adult jail. I wish I had the answer.

Chad

stevebaby
04-17-2009, 12:30 PM
When my daughter was 8 years old I was carrying her on my shoulders. I was taking her home and she wanted to to to her friend's place, and I wanted to take her home. She pulled my neck to steer me in the direction of her friend's place, which resulted in torn ligaments in my shoulder which have still not healed.
Should I have taken my daughter to the police station and had her charged with assault?
If not...why not?
Analogous situation IMO.

cs
04-17-2009, 12:39 PM
Now I don't really think that this is a fair comparison. Your daughter didn't destroy a million dollars worth of property nor risk anyone's life.

Chad

paladin
04-17-2009, 12:47 PM
Steve...I know the difference......but in Judge Roy Bean's court...he would be "hung by the neck".....
and in the words of my great Grandfather......The Judge said he was to be hung....referring to Judge Isaac Parker.....and the hanging tree in Webbers Falls Oklahoma was in my grandfathers front yard and and just behind the small sandstone jail in Indian Territories.....and the tree still stands...one of the oldest and largest Bois d'Arc trees in the U.S.....

stevebaby
04-17-2009, 12:47 PM
Now I don't really think that this is a fair comparison. Your daughter didn't destroy a million dollars worth of property nor risk anyone's life.

ChadIn fact she went very close to snapping my spinal chord and either killing me or making me a quadraplegic and the injury has cost me a large sum in lost income.The injury had the potential to cost me more than a mill.
Should I have taken her to the police station and had her charged, or should I have just accepted, as I of course did, that sometimes...accidents just happen?

cs
04-17-2009, 12:51 PM
Was that a malicious act or was she just trying to steer you in her direction?

This kid maliciously and willingly set a store on fire because he didn't get a toy. There needs to be some consequences for his actions.

I guess first we need to find out what underlying factor causes a kid to rebel to this extent.

Chad

stevebaby
04-17-2009, 12:53 PM
Steve...I know the difference......but in Judge Roy Bean's court...he would be "hung by the neck".....
and in the words of my great Grandfather......The Judge said he was to be hung....referring to Judge Isaac Parker.....and the hanging tree in Webbers Falls Oklahoma was in my grandfathers front yard and and just behind the small sandstone jail in Indian Territories.....and the tree still stands...one of the oldest and largest Bois d'Arc trees in the U.S.....His Honour evidently knew more about the law as it related to his jurisdiction than he did about the niceties of the phrasing of sentences in other common law jurisdictions.
Call it what he will...just as dead. :D
One of my ancestors was, according to family tradition, the last man hanged in Britain for stealing horses. It was a gross injustice, as they were English horses.

stevebaby
04-17-2009, 01:04 PM
Was that a malicious act or was she just trying to steer you in her direction?

This kid maliciously and willingly set a store on fire because he didn't get a toy. There needs to be some consequences for his actions.

I guess first we need to find out what underlying factor causes a kid to rebel to this extent.

ChadShe wanted to go to her friend's place and I was taking her her home for dinner. Malice didn't enter into it, since she was incapable of understanding the consequences of her actions.
It is, actually, an established principle of the common law that those who leave unattended items such as matches, which have been held to be "attractive to children"...are liable for the consequence of any misuse of those items.

stevebaby
04-17-2009, 01:14 PM
The kid's parents are in the best position to explain the consequences, and it should go no further than that.

cs
04-17-2009, 01:21 PM
Normally I would agree with you, but this is a more extreme case. In this case over a million dollars worth of private property was damaged and lives were put at risk.

Should the insurance company have to pay for the damages and the kid get a slap on the wrist from his parents and told not to do it again?

Complicated issue.

Chad

paladin
04-17-2009, 01:28 PM
How in heck do you steal an English Horse.....which was probably stolen to start with...canna trust the darn English......probably Scottish, left over from Bannackburn when they fled the field.

JimD
04-17-2009, 01:41 PM
Any nine year old who starts a fire inside a store has some serious issues. He's not a criminal, but he sure is one messed up child.

stevebaby
04-17-2009, 01:54 PM
Ah well...there's a couple of my ancestors buried with the Chattos at Culloden, and there were likely a couple on the other side who helped put them there. As Lord George Murray found out... but he no doubt planned it that way...

Slap the kid's arse or whatever, the insurance company will no doubt be unwilling to accept that a nine year old kid can fully understand the consequences, particularly in light of the case law, and I'll hazard a guess here and throw this up for debate...that the store's owners owners have received legal advice that they may very well be legally liable for the consequences of leaving the means of combustion available to a child, and as such, their claim for damages from their insurance company may be denied.
Their insurers, of course, will adopt the position that it's much easier to deny a claim for compensation than it is to sue the child or his parents. Unless the kid gets convicted.
There's a lot more going on here than any of us know, or will ever find out.

cs
04-17-2009, 01:59 PM
This happened about 3 or 4 miles away from the house. I'll probably hear more "rumors" about this than the rest of you. Sorting rumors from fact is an issue.

BTW The local judge is high school classmate of mine and he was always a fair and level headed guy. I'm sure that he will do what is right if it comes into his courtroom.

I don't buy into the store being liable.

Chad

stevebaby
04-17-2009, 02:05 PM
Any nine year old who starts a fire inside a store has some serious issues. He's not a criminal, but he sure is one messed up child.Was there ever a kid worthy of the name, who never played with matches without understanding the consequences?
Any kid who never burnt something that they shouldn't have, and got their backsides whacked as a result...had a deprived chidhood IMO.
The only difference is in the amount of the subsequent damage, and it's pretty ridiculous to expect a nine year old kid to understand that.

oznabrag
04-17-2009, 02:06 PM
...snip...
I don't buy into the store being liable.

Chad

Me neither. What are they expected to do, put all their merchandise under glass?

Pretty much anything in a discount store can be lethal, under the wrong circumstances.

John T

Phillip Allen
04-17-2009, 02:24 PM
arson at the age of 9...how many think he should be denied the right to own a firearm at the age of 40?

stevebaby
04-17-2009, 02:40 PM
Me neither. What are they expected to do, put all their merchandise under glass?

Pretty much anything in a discount store can be lethal, under the wrong circumstances.

John TIf it involves a substance with the obvious potential to cause harn, and which has been held by courts to be attractive to children who are below the legal age of responsibility, then I would say , yes, it is likely that a court would, ultimately agree. My opinion is that the insurance company would take that position too, but of course they have their own interests at heart.

Canoeyawl
04-17-2009, 02:51 PM
The matches were probably right up front at eye level for a nine year old, right next to the cigarettes..

2MeterTroll
04-17-2009, 03:02 PM
I think you guys are right, he is only 9,
But at the same time we should consider the fact, when adults do things like this, and we see that they did similar acts as children, then we say well we should have seen the signs, we werent paying attention , maby we could have stoped it.
Who do you think will foot the bill for the damage?


And it fact that every attempted suicide dies.
and its a fact that every drug addict used the gateway drug water.

how many more facts do you want.

ITS A CHOICE the kid will ether be an arsonist or he wont.
I lit a bedroom on fire at about 5 I have yet to go out and burn anything down.

but i would be looking to his parenting or lack of if it is a lack of parenting and ill bet this kids a latchkey.

Phillip Allen
04-17-2009, 03:17 PM
boy, you guys are good at drawing conclusions from very little evidence

bullet lands "near" where I'm sitting in the woods on opening day...
bullet was made by Remington...
assembled on thrusday by a wife who's husband has recently been discovered with lipstick smears on his collar...
the wife is assumed to be "disgruntled"...
she is arrested for attempting to murder me...

I'd bet that the vast majority of men in the world have attempted such an act in their childhood...failure is common...arson was not on his mind...probably very little was on his mind

Paul Pless
04-17-2009, 03:26 PM
It isn't the charge that should relect the age (or other extenuating factor). It is the prosecution and sentensing that needs to be flexible due to these issues.

The kid should be charged with the crime. The trial should take place in a juvenile court (family court) and the sentence should take into account the age of the kid. At nine year of age the sentence should be slanted very heavily on the side of rehabilitation (councilling both for the kid and his parents) and education and not focus on punishment.

If the kids record can be sealed (very limited access to the conviction record) and if the kid remains clean of further crimes the conviction can be expunged (no criminal record as an adult).

But, please charge the kid, but find out the "why", it's important at that age to prevent recurrance. What the hell is going on with the kid or the family to cause thsi kind of behaviour?That you Jo? ;)

ishmael
04-17-2009, 03:36 PM
When I was a kid our home had a hedge row of forsythia bush that ran from one edge of the property to the other along the back boundary. When in leaf it formed a sort of fortress that was impervious to adults. Ya know, as a kid you just crawled in on your knees and once inside it was surprisingly open. You could stand up in places. It was a informal club house that kids all up and down the block knew about. I think I remember it having a password, though I can't remember what it was.

We did all the typical kid stuff, including playing with matches. Got in trouble for some it, too. It's one thing to start a little fire of dry twigs and another to burn a store up. I think most of the men here, and some of the women, will confess a brief stint of being interested in fire. I still like a good fire in a pit or in a stove. At seven or nine you don't know what you're doing with it.

Paul Pless
04-17-2009, 03:40 PM
I think most of the men here, and some of the women, will confess a brief stint of being interested in fire. I think most of the men here whether they admit it or not, still appreciate a good fire!:D

Nicholas Scheuer
04-17-2009, 03:43 PM
Might do more good to whip his ass so he can't sit down for a month.

Oh, forgot, this is one of those "sensitivity" threads.

Never mind.

Moby Nick.

cs
04-17-2009, 03:44 PM
I agree that kids will be kids and play with fire. As a kid I set the woods on fire playing with fireworks. The parents put it out with a few garden hoses. I also burnt the crap out of my hand playing with matches after every one else went to sleep (one of the many hospital visits of my youth).

But I never maliciously started a fire in either a public or private place because I was angry.

Poor parenting skills probably has played a lot into this, but in my opinion the kid has issues (other than normal kid issues) that need to be addressed.

I'm not sure if the charges are appropriate and surely not tried and sentenced as an adult, but definitely something needs to be done.

Chad

cs
04-17-2009, 03:45 PM
Might do more good to whip his ass so he can't sit down for a month.

Oh, forgot, this is one of those "sensitivity" threads.

Never mind.

Moby Nick.

Nope Nick, I agree, a good ass whipping might have prevented this.

Chad

cs
04-17-2009, 03:46 PM
I think most of the men here whether they admit it or not, still appreciate a good fire!:D


Guilty as charged.

Chad

paladin
04-17-2009, 05:15 PM
I may go into a store (mostly grocery stores) 2-3 times a month, I haven't been in a department store in many years.....but numerous times in the local Safeway or Giant there's generally someone with 2-3 kids tagging along and invariably at least one screaming bloody murder that they want something and throw temper tantrums and sit down on the floor screaming bloody murder if the parent won't buy it, and kids running directly to the candy aisle, taking things from the shelf, and eating parts of it and then throwing down any remains before they get to the counter, and I have seen mothers take half eaten things and put them on another aisle and proceed on as if nothing happened. I would have blistered their little butts...but in todays society you can't do that.....man...my mom or dad would have dusted my jeans so badly that I couldn't sit down for a month of Sundays.

ishmael
04-17-2009, 06:10 PM
This thread got me thinking about family history. Grand pop, my mother's father, was apparently a pistol at around this age. No starting of big fires, just petty stuff, ya know, swiping a pack of gum without paying for it, etc. A general nuisance. They didn't know what to do with him, so at twelve or so they shipped him off to Culver, a military school. Is Culver still in business?

Anyway, when he came back to town at 17 he was at loose ends and his father, a banker, stood him to a loan to set up a car dealership. This must have been 1912, and automobiles were just getting revved up. He volunteered for The Great War but was rejected because of a heart murmur. He made a great success at Buicks and Cadillacs in small town Ohio. Never rich, but a good living.

Years on, I'd meet people who'd known him. Without exception they remarked on what a nice man he was. Never out to wheel and deal, always a fair man, people bought cars from Raymond because they really like him, and he returned the care.

I didn't know him well, he died when I was seven. And I don't know why I tell this story, except that his honor in life still permeates mine.

S/V Laura Ellen
04-17-2009, 06:14 PM
That you Jo? ;)

No, it really me. She must be rubbing off on me. Some would say that it's a good thing.

S/V Laura Ellen
04-17-2009, 06:18 PM
At what age do you believe a child should not be held legally responsible for a criminal offence?


I say it really depends on the maturity level of the kid.
What does the state law say?

ishmael
04-17-2009, 06:58 PM
"At what age do you believe a child should not be held legally responsible for a criminal offence?"

A difficult question, and we've been pushing adolescence back lately, extending it. The Jewish tradition says thirteen, but Jews don't really hold to that these days. And a part of that was the fact that people didn't live as long as they do today.

If I had to put a number on it I'd say what is pretty much current law here in the states, sixteen.

cs
04-24-2009, 05:35 AM
Just to add more fuel to the fire. I just heard on the news that the very same 9 year old tried to set fire to the gas station across the street from the Dollar General that he burned down.

Chad

The link (http://www.wrcbtv.com/global/story.asp?s=10184704)

dhic001
04-24-2009, 05:52 AM
I think most of the men here whether they admit it or not, still appreciate a good fire!:D

I appreciate a good fire, preferably coal fired and under the boiler in the boat. A good fire means lots of steam, lots of speed and a very happy steamboat owner.

Oh, back to the thread. The kid definitely needs some attention, but the parents need a good kicking too. If the parents had been more attentive, the kid wouldn't have been able to do what he did. Charge the parents with something reflecting the neglect of their duties, and get the kid some mental help.

Daniel

Paul Pless
04-24-2009, 06:35 AM
that the very same 9 year old tried to set fire to the gas station across the street from the Dollar General that he burned down.now he's a serial arsonist...

cs
04-24-2009, 07:02 AM
That's what is scary Paul. This kid is screaming for attention and now he sees that he can get it by starting fires. This needs to be set straight pronto or we will have a very troubled child around here that will grow up to be a disturbed adult.

Chad

ishmael
04-24-2009, 07:10 AM
"now he's a serial arsonist..."

Yep. Serious problems here, and, likely, not just with the kid. There's, likely, a real problem with this family. I'd wager, if I were pressed, that there's either physical or sexual abuse, or both, going on.

John Smith
04-24-2009, 07:16 AM
This is part of the "holier than thou" attitude of recent years.

We set up an entire system of juvenile courts, as I recall, for the distinct purpose of treating minors as minors. We seem to be inclined to use that system less and less.

More and more, it seems, revenge has replaced justice.

As an aside here of thoughts, I met a guy who served in Vietnam. He lost his legs to a grenade thrown by a 10 year old. Point being the fire doesn't care the age of the one who starts it.

I'm against trying him as an adult. Like others, I'm not sure what the "good" thing to do is. Maybe there is no "good" thing. Sometime you simply can't make something good out of something bad.

Phillip Allen
04-24-2009, 07:42 AM
This is part of the "holier than thou" attitude of recent years.

We set up an entire system of juvenile courts, as I recall, for the distinct purpose of treating minors as minors. We seem to be inclined to use that system less and less.

More and more, it seems, revenge has replaced justice.

As an aside here of thoughts, I met a guy who served in Vietnam. He lost his legs to a grenade thrown by a 10 year old. Point being the fire doesn't care the age of the one who starts it.

I'm against trying him as an adult. Like others, I'm not sure what the "good" thing to do is. Maybe there is no "good" thing. Sometime you simply can't make something good out of something bad.

sounds like acceptance...and THAT is good

George Jung
04-24-2009, 07:44 AM
I suspect there's a lot more to this story than what we've seen. Anything in the news you can point to, Chad?

Prison - no.
Maybe some on-going psychological issues (maybe sociopathic tendencies?) that need to be addressed? Better to address them now, than when he's an 'adult', and has done something irreversible/irreparable. My guess is, this will be the club used to ensure that counseling happens.

cs
04-24-2009, 07:49 AM
I just heard this second half this morning. There is some speculation about the parent's ability to be parents, but that is about it. I'm going to keep my ear to the wall and see if I hear anything. I'll post what I hear.

Chad

George Jung
04-24-2009, 07:52 AM
I may go into a store (mostly grocery stores) 2-3 times a month, I haven't been in a department store in many years.....but numerous times in the local Safeway or Giant there's generally someone with 2-3 kids tagging along and invariably at least one screaming bloody murder that they want something and throw temper tantrums and sit down on the floor screaming bloody murder if the parent won't buy it, and kids running directly to the candy aisle, taking things from the shelf, and eating parts of it and then throwing down any remains before they get to the counter, and I have seen mothers take half eaten things and put them on another aisle and proceed on as if nothing happened. I would have blistered their little butts...but in todays society you can't do that.....man...my mom or dad would have dusted my jeans so badly that I couldn't sit down for a month of Sundays.

Actually, you can 'blister their butts', but you're correct - some ninny will accuse you of abuse. My first daughter - smart lil' bugger that she is - tried that stunt in a store when she was about four, figuring I'd take a pass in public. I disabused her of that notion, and was promptly accosted by one of the ladies working there. She was going to report me for abuse.
I said "lady, you go right ahead and do that. I'm Dr. so and so, and I'm the head of child protection in my town. Make sure you get my name right". She shut her mouth, turned on her heel, and that's the last I heard about it. And for the record - no one is ever going to be successfully prosecuted for appropriate discipline of their children - but that seems so rare (the discipline, that is) that you'd be hard pressed to prove it.

Phillip Allen
04-24-2009, 07:52 AM
I think it quite possible the kid was acting out with no thought beyond his rebelling...in that sense, it was an accident. We (society) are making way too much of this.

look into it but too many unreasonable conclusions have been posted here...we are likely making mountains of mole hills...move the matches (lighters, etc) outa reach of children...get over it

mmd
04-24-2009, 08:11 AM
Just as a sidebar to George Jung's anecdote about his daughter acting up in a store (and I've told this story here on the WBF previously, so sorry to those to whom it is not new), my daughter did a similar tantrum in a grocery store when she was about four. The typical little kid crying, yelling, lay on the floor kicking and flailing her little fists because we wouldn't buy a bag of candy she wanted. Maureen & I looked at each other, maybe even winked, then joined her on the floor, kicking, wailing, and crying, "No! No! No candy!". Gwyn stopped, stood up; we stood up. Asked her if we could go now. She said yes. And that was the first and last time she ever threw a tantrum.

I wish for two things from that incident: I wish all discipline efforts had been so easy and effective, and I wish I had a copy of the store security video tape, if there ever was one...

Phillip Allen
04-24-2009, 08:35 AM
Just as a sidebar to George Jung's anecdote about his daughter acting up in a store (and I've told this story here on the WBF previously, so sorry to those to whom it is not new), my daughter did a similar tantrum in a grocery store when she was about four. The typical little kid crying, yelling, lay on the floor kicking and flailing her little fists because we wouldn't buy a bag of candy she wanted. Maureen & I looked at each other, maybe even winked, then joined her on the floor, kicking, wailing, and crying, "No! No! No candy!". Gwyn stopped, stood up; we stood up. Asked her if we could go now. She said yes. And that was the first and last time she ever threw a tantrum.

I wish for two things from that incident: I wish all discipline efforts had been so easy and effective, and I wish I had a copy of the store security video tape, if there ever was one...

GENUIS! I would not have thought of that.

The Gentleman Sawyer
04-24-2009, 03:06 PM
I think it quite possible the kid was acting out with no thought beyond his rebelling...in that sense, it was an accident. We (society) are making way too much of this.

look into it but too many unreasonable conclusions have been posted here...we are likely making mountains of mole hills...move the matches (lighters, etc) outa reach of children...get over it

Get over it??? Lets see, the little bugger set fire to a store occupied with shoppers and employees causing a total loss of $1Million. Less than two weeks later he starts a fire near gas pumps at a convenience store. http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_149678.asp I'd say he needs to be a guest of the state since his parents aren't keeping him on a short enough leash.

Ken

htom
04-24-2009, 03:44 PM
Genius, indeed, mmd; I've used it on nieces and nephews with great effect, and my brother is teaching it in his parenting class.

Sadly, it seems the kid really desires attention from people other than his parents and has found a way to get it. Putting him into a good foster care home, with tag-team therapists, might save him.