Looking for 29 to 32 feet sailboat designs.

[Northdude]

Hi everybody,

I've been lurking overhere for a couple years now but this is only my first post.

I live in the Montreal, Qc, area and currently sail a plastic 25 footer on the lake of the two mountains in the summer. I quite enjoy it and the boat is serving me well, but I am looking forward to take a year off and to an extensive cruise with the wife in about 10-15 years. Since then, the boat would be used to sail over the weekend with the kids. The boat I own, a MacGregor Venture 25 is ok for daysailing and to sleep on for 2-3 days but really is not up to the challenge of extended cruising. And I sure can't imagine taking it in blue waters!

So, I looked at George Buehler's designs and how he thinks about amateur boat construction, which I liked a lot. However, what I did not like was that its boat are not beamy at all and way to long for my needs. I can't go over 32 feet at the club I currently am located at. I'd like to stay between 29 and 32 feet and have a much more beamy boat. I quite like the Pardey's Thealeisin...

Also, from what I've seen around here, plywood is probably the easiest wood to find if I want to built. It may also be the easiest material for me to work with. More traditional woods may not be easy to find or the cost might be prohibitive.

So what I'm looking for is this:
- Between 29-32 foot
- Plywood construction, single chined, multi-chine, whatever
- Full keel much preferred over fin keel
- Transom hung rudder if possible (easier to maintain)
- Tiller steered
- 4'6" maximum draft
- I stand 5"6', would be nice to have standing headroom if possible
- A head, obviously
- Isolated double berth plus two berths to sleep the kids when doing weekend sailing
- Able to eventually face blue waters and make planned passage
- A crew on watch must be able to single hand the boat
- No inboard engine, I hate those, a nice outboard will do fine

I think that sums it up! But does a boat like this exists? Do you think my expectations are reasonable?

Thanks!

[JimConlin]

Once you've estimated the cost of building, consider that in today's market, you can buy a Pearson Triton with a diesel inboard engine for $6K.

[JimD]

Any way you slice it a 30 foot ocean passagemaker is a helluva project. It usually takes many years of obsessive determination and sacrafice. Here's Ted Brewer's single chine plywood Tern:

http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/images/Tern---sailplan.gif

Many people come to this forum with ideas to build such boats. Very few ever get past spending a few hundred on the plans and then coming to their senses. Mr Conlin is giving you good advice. Take the inboard out of the Pearson if like. Welcome to the forum:D

[paladin]

Been down that road more than once.....it took me a year to get my boat in the water with 6 full time help and 3-4 gophers.....and at a cost far above what you can buy a used something else for. Build a dink first...you will need it anyway, a rigid dink, easier to row than an inflatable, perhaps with a small sail rig, the kids will need it for recreation....you can find good glass boats on the market for less than the cost of a new set of sails.

[DGentry]

Jim has an extremely valid point.

Otherwise, consider other possibilities that also fit your parameters, like this:

Pahi 31 by James Wharram
http://www.wharram.eu/photos/image-cache/Pahi-range/Pahi-31/Pahi31-%20Lloyd-Warren%20_disp640.jpg

Or maybe the AS-29 (though more of a coastal cruiser) by Phil Bolger:

http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/as29nash.jpg

Both are plywood, and relatively low tech and easy to build. There are other plywood cat designs, too, and the Wharram's, at least, have extensive blue water experience. Cat's hardly pitch, heel or roll, provide for lots of privacy from the kids, go relatively fast and have loads of deck space, not to mention shoal draft is fabulous.

Just a thought. The Triton or something similar, is still likely the best or, at least, cheapest option.

[Northdude]

Thanks all for your replies!

I've never heard of pearson triton before, they look like one fine vessel for sure! I'd need to locate one near Quebec tho. Anyway, I have not ruled out buying a used plastic boat but funnily, the old ones seems to suit my need better the more recent one. They try less to be bigger they they are and just use the space available efficiently.

That said, even if I end up not building one by myself, I still cherish the dream of doing it. An uncle of mine build a 36 feet ketch when I was younger (lost it at sea, unfortunately, uncle is fine) and since then, I've been dreaming of doing the same. So, even if it is just a dream, dreaming feels good; even if I end up being just another plans collector :D! But rest assure that I take all your comments seriously.

That said, brewers Tern seems to fit the bill quite well. Funny thing is, I've looked at his mystic sharpie a lot and never thought about his Tern! Quite a nice boat. Am I right to think that a boat like this could realistically be built for around 75K-80K?

Thanks again!

[norseman]

If you like Hess, you might want to check out Gartside and Burnett. If it were me, I would seriously consider traditional construction.Especially if living in Canada.Glued construction will cost more and take longer. Consider also if you will have a climate-controlled shop. Anyway,go for it and good luck;-)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3368/3445643938_591f568763.jpg

Gartside 116,launched last year.

[Northdude]

This is a gorgeous boat, do you have any more picture of her? I always loved the Paul Gartside designs, but I doubt I could find the proper timber over here in Quebec. That being said, if I could source the wood, it sure would open up my possibilities.

Wow, Burnett design no. 10 http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/010zinnia.html is really a nice boat, this would surely fit what I was looking for; other then the 5'6" draft.

[rbgarr]

30' Alberg in Ontario: http://tinyurl.com/cgwhgo

30' Acadia in Ont. http://tinyurl.com/deocmx We had a whole crowd of kids on one of these once. Fun.

Nice C&C design, keel/centerboard http://tinyurl.com/cszbmq

[Woxbox]

DGentry --- You beat me to it. The modern family cruiser is a catamaran, no question about it. Also good from Wharram is the Tiki range. You and the spouse take one hull, the kids or guests get the other one. Sails flat and quickly. And a pretty straightforward build without much in the way of pricey fixtures or extensive wiring and plumbing.

http://wharram.com/images/B-tiki-30-233.jpg

[norseman]

http://www.trebaat.no/bilete/bilete08/img/2008.06.21_1715.31.jpg

[BarnacleGrim]

I'd be least of all worried about the 32' length limit. I made the mistake of selecting a boat plan to fit my garage, not the waters I would sail in. Luckily I never started building, and bought a more suitable boat instead. Of course, a smaller boat will be quicker to build and cost less.

Remember that a beamy boat can be a capsize hazard! The long, narrow boat will also move more easily in the water and be easier to plank.

[DGentry]

You like the Pardey's boat? The design, only slightly modified, is available, somewhere. I bet you could spend plenty of time and money building one, and it's just what you wanted. You might be able to buy one, too. Here's an example I found moored over by Ganges Harbor, BC.
Anyway, I thought this would be a good excuse to post this pic. Enjoy.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_eB0yHCJcprg/SOvYGFMDrHI/AAAAAAAAAI4/PAkLL7_UvU8/s400/HPIM3402.JPG

[JimConlin]

...
I've never heard of pearson triton before, they look like one fine vessel for sure! I'd need to locate one near Quebec tho. ...

They were the first of the manufactured glass cruising boats. Between 1959 and 1967, nearly 700 were built. Several have circumnavigated. They've kept their value. In today's market, many sell for about what they sold for when new.
There are many other good glass boats from that era and they are also good values.

I don't know what you'll find within the Quebec city limits, but the Maine coast is less than 300 miles away.

[Northdude]

I looked at the Triton a bit more yesterday afterwork and it sure seems to be one fine boat, and pretty affordable to boot. I may be able to sell the current one, buy a Triton and have a bit of spare cash to upgrade it, something to seriously consider! And the wife would sure love the headroom in there. I showed her a CAL 29 recently and she was almost ready to fork out the cash for it just for the headroom. We did a 2 weeks trip last year up the Ottawa river and it unfortunately rained 11 of the 14 days out there. We really did miss having headroom while cooking or just moving around in the boat. While day sailing, it does not matter much, but after a couple of days in there, it gets on your nerves. Luckily, we are both 5'6" so finding a boat with headroom for us won't be that difficult!

When looking for used boat, I'm using the Yachtworld search engine and look for northeast. I do not mind doing a 5-6 hour run to find a boat I really love. It doesn't absolutely have to be in Quebec. Anyone knows another good site to search on other then Yachtworld?

But anyway, we are on a wooden boat forum so I do not want the discussion to be to much about plastic boats, I guess it may not be the proper place to discuss such things.

DGentry, your pic do not display for me, do you have an URL? Also, the AS29 is a design I've studied a LOT! I really like the thinking behind this boat, the mast tabernacle, the way things are made to be practical in it. The function over form thing really gets me. I'd even venture to say it is almost perfect. The thing is, while looking at sharpies and scows designs, NIS 31, AS29 and Parkers scows, I asked myself if I'd only do coastal and intra coastal cruising or if I'd ever want to make a passage and visit Europe, Africa, etc etc. Now, I can't be sure 15 years in advance of where I'll head to, but the simple fact that I may be limited to stay around the continent because of the choice of boat I made was bugging me. I heard that the NIS boats were very seaworthy, what do you think? I'm currently reading "Seaworthiness, the forgotten factor" to help me better understand what makes a boat able to cross oceans or not. But for now, I guess a more traditional long keel heavy displacement boat is the proper choice.

Norseman, this is one beautiful boat, gorgeous! Is it yours? If so, can I ask some more informations about the time it took to build, some details about the construction, costs (if it is polite to ask for this), etc? Maybe there is some other threads discussing already?

Thanks again everyone, this place is really nice to hang around in, I've enjoyed countless hours of reading and salivating at pictures of boats on here! :)

[Northdude]

I'd be least of all worried about the 32' length limit. I made the mistake of selecting a boat plan to fit my garage, not the waters I would sail in. Luckily I never started building, and bought a more suitable boat instead. Of course, a smaller boat will be quicker to build and cost less.

Remember that a beamy boat can be a capsize hazard! The long, narrow boat will also move more easily in the water and be easier to plank.

The 32 foot limit is needed because it is the maximum size boat I can have at the yacht club I am currently located at. I also think it is the maximum boat size possible on the lake, but not sure about that. This lake is also very shallow in general, and that is why I was looking for a 4'6" maximum draft.

The other option would be to move on to the Champlain lake, but then I may just end up sailing a lot less because of the distance from home and from work. I still prefer a smaller boat I can sail 3-4 times a week then a big one I can only sail 2-3 times a month!

[Ron Williamson]

http://www.boatforsale.org/class/
C&C 27s are supposed to be pretty sweet and cheap.
R

[JimD]

As long as we're dreaming about classy glass boats at the top of my list is the Lyle Hess designed Bristol Channel Cutter 28, manufactured by the Sam L Morse Co. I had read that Morse was ending production but am not sure how that turned out. You'd pay a king's ransom for even a second hand one but they are classic Hess at his best. Lots of headroom, too:

http://www.samlmorse.com/img/tmp/bcc_layout1.jpg














http://www.samlmorse.com/forum/albums/album66/BCC_28_03.jpg

[kc8pql]

I looked at the Triton a bit more yesterday afterwork and it sure seems to be one fine boat, and pretty affordable to boot.
You may want to add the Pearson Vanguard too then. Same vintage, same builder, but at 32', a bit roomier.

[norseman]

Norseman, this is one beautiful boat, gorgeous! Is it yours? If so, can I ask some more informations about the time it took to build, some details about the construction, costs (if it is polite to ask for this), etc? Maybe there is some other threads discussing already?

Thanks again everyone, this place is really nice to hang around in, I've enjoyed countless hours of reading and salivating at pictures of boats on here! :)

Sure! There's the language barrier of course..;-)
I think the Pardey book capable cruiser (http://www.amazon.com/Capable-Cruiser-Lin-Pardey/dp/0964603624) will answer most of your questions,"Choosing for cruising" by Bruce Roberts is also excellent. His advise would be to choose the smallest boat that will satisfy your current requirements. Take Paladins Tana Mari for example, If I remember correctly he found it a bit much to handle. Or Tom Cunliffe's Westernman,same thing.

As for build times, I think it's related to the weight and complexity of the boat and most importantly whether it's glued or traditional construction. Glued is nice but you need so much more machinery,equipment and paraphernalia,a heated shop and all that glue cost about as much as the wood for the hull. At least up here where quality lumber is still in plentiful supply and relatively cheap.
Building without an engine will probably cut down your build time quite a bit, maybe a year?
I built everything myself,the shop,the hull,hardware,tanks,rig and sails and it took 8 years working 4-5 hours a day.
How much it cost you ask? Everything I had and then some (Moitessier);-) U2 can canoe ;-)

[JimConlin]

You may want to add the Pearson Vanguard too then. Same vintage, same builder, but at 32', a bit roomier.
I know a fellow who circumnavigated in a Vanguard.

[Windsong]

You like the Pardey's boat? The design, only slightly modified, is available, somewhere. I bet you could spend plenty of time and money building one, and it's just what you wanted. You might be able to buy one, too. Here's an example I found moored over by Ganges Harbor, BC.
Anyway, I thought this would be a good excuse to post this pic. Enjoy.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_eB0yHCJcprg/SOvYGFMDrHI/AAAAAAAAAI4/PAkLL7_UvU8/s400/HPIM3402.JPG
Great choice to build or buy. You can find a tired owner willing to sell. Sail while you dream. Fall in love with boat you want to build.
Good Luck
Lars

[Jay Greer]

When Larry and Lynn Pardy built both of their boats, the time factor was about three years from lofting to launching. Larry worked full time on the boats but there was a whole army of us volunteers that put in a hell of a lot of work as well.
When you speak of your limitation of 32 feet, does that include the bow sprit as well? Larry's "Taleisen is thirty feet between perpendiculars but the sprit adds another six feet to the full sparred length. The design is well proven for its full off shore capabilities and is well suited for two people as a cruiser with accomodations set up with a double berth forward and two setee berths amid ships for extra guests. One factor that I always stress with my clients is that a cruising boat is best set up with plenty of walking space on deck. Lyle Hess knew this when he designed "Taleisen" as 70% of the time aboard is spent on deck. Designs that have deck houses that are so wide as to create narrow walking space when going forward on deck become quite uncomfortable to the seasoned sailor very quickly. For that reason, I would recommend a design that has plenty of room on deck. I highly endorse looking at designs by L.Francis Herreshoff that can be found in his book Sensible Cruising Designs as, his boats are easy to build, comfortable to sail and live on and a joy to the eye of the sailor.
Jay
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9da37b3127ccec6b45eb410ba00000040O00QYsmrNy5bsQ e3nwg/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9da37b3127ccec6b4a826916300000040O00QYsmrNy5bsQ e3nwg/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9da37b3127ccec6b4c7cbd12100000040O00QYsmrNy5bsQ e3nwg/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[Cecil Borel]

Northdude: the Kahuna by Mark Smaalders fits most of your description.http://smaalders.net/yacht_design/
http://gallery.me.com/cecilborel/100015/gaff-20sail-20copy/web.jpg?ver=12342075340005
http://gallery.me.com/cecilborel/100015/IMG_5760/web.jpg?ver=12377653930001

[chrisk]

So, I looked at George Buehler's designs and how he thinks about amateur boat construction, which I liked a lot. However, what I did not like was that its boat are not beamy at all and way to long for my needs.

George Buehler has a Tancook Whaler with schooner rig right at 29' called Uncle Sam:

http://www.georgebuehler.com/georgeimages/UNCLE%20SAM%202.jpg

At least it's not too long for your criteria. The blurb on it here:

http://www.georgebuehler.com/unclesam.html

The blurb states:

SAM is an inexpensive, simple to build, and handsome little ship that would be a lot of fun for weekend and vacation use. You could certainly use him for cruising too, but I think in this small size a cutter rig is more practical for off-shore use.

and also:

Although I suggest you use planked wood, he can also be built of plywood.

Not sure about sleeping capacity or headroom though.

[Rigadog]

Triton on Ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pearson-Triton-Sailboat_W0QQitemZ130300245073QQcmdZViewItemQQptZS ailboats?hash=item130300245073&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1318

[Northdude]

Wow, depending on the condition, this triton is quite a deal! but it is 2335 km from where I live, quite a ride to go see a boat! But reading further about the triton, I found that the Alberg 30 was quite similar and built in Canada, so there is much more of them around here. Looks like quite another plastic classic!

About Buehler, I read his book and really really appreciate how he thinks about amateur construction. I think more designers should think this way when designing boats for amateur construction. But I do not like his designs that much. Well, I really like the Emilly design to tell the truth, but I'd like it with a bit more beam. In fact this is a recurrent thing I do not like about his designs, they are quite narrow and he advocates going for a longer boat instead of a beamier one. I'm not saying to add 3 feet of beam to it, but just 1.5 feet more beam could change a lot down in the cabin without making it that much more prone to being capsized. Compare the Ted Brewer Tern to the Emilly, the Tern has a 26'3" LWL and a 10'1" beam while the Emilly has a 25'1" LWL and a 8'2" beam. Maybe I'm also splitting hair, I dunno. Anyway, Emilly is still my favorite Buehler design and sure has a place in my top 5!

As for the Smaalders Kahuna, this is another design I really liked (I know, I know, I like them all!). Thing is, I think they are strip planked, aren't they? from what I understood, they are strip planked and then layers of veneers are cold molded over them. It sure must make for one good hull, but I'm not sure I can find the proper woods around here.

But that brings another question, brought up while reading the Buehler book. Can I do a carvel planked boat using non traditional woods? Up here in Montreal, the easiest affordable woods to find, I think, are white pine and spruce. And I'm not sure I could find "boat grade" of those. Can a boat be carvel planked from either of those with the occasional knot and still be a good boat? This is one thing I still have to investigate. If so, it sure would bring a lot of possible designs to the table!

By the way, my 32 feet restriction does not include the bowsprit. It's just the maximum boat length that can fit at our shore dock. For a comparison, the biggest boats we have at the clubs are Bayfields 32 and such.

Thanks again everyone, it is a joy to read you all!

[kc8pql]

The Triton, Vanguard and the Albergs were all designed by Carl Alberg. They are all heavily built, capable boats. They were designed to the old CCA rule and have short waterlines with long overhangs and, by today's floating condo standards, they are narrow. The Triton has an 8' beam if I remember correctly, the Vanguard and Alberg 35, about 9' or 9 1/2'. If you really want a fat boat, these aren't the ones.

[JimD]

... they are strip planked and then layers of veneers are cold molded over them. It sure must make for one good hull, but I'm not sure I can find the proper woods around here.

But that brings another question, brought up while reading the Buehler book. Can I do a carvel planked boat using non traditional woods? Up here in Montreal...

You should be prepared to look beyond your local area for the materials you'll need. Find reputable suppliers elsewhere and pay the shipping. How about building a carvel dinghy while you shop around for that old Alberg?

[Wiley Baggins]

More traditional woods may not be easy to find or the cost might be prohibitive.


You should be prepared to look beyond your local area for the materials you'll need.

I'll eat my hat (the one I treated with Smalser's tin cloth waterproofing concoction) if you can't find decent traditional lumber at a competitive price in your province.

That will be the easy part. As you can tell, picking one design is often the hard part. :)

[Ron Williamson]

I agree about lumber availability and price,you gotta know where to look.
Goodfellow Inc. will have anything you want,but they prolly won't want to sell it to you.
Here is a page from my Favourites,BTW.
http://sailquest.com/market/index.htm
R