replacing keel bolts

[centroid]

Hello,

The boat I’m looking to buy is 75 yrs old. The surveyor is concern about the keel bolts as I suspected. So I plan on replacing them in the near future. But I’m wondering about the amount of work/cost to replace them. I know every boat is different but I just wanted to get an idea of what I’m getting myself into. The surveyor said it might not be a huge task but he still needs to look at the keel when the boat will be hauled out next month. He suggest using a hydraulic press to push from the bottom of the keel up assuming the bolts go all the way through.

I would like to get an idea how long this would take. If I’m hauling her out for a bottom job and replacing keel bolts, would it be one week ? two weeks ? any idea of cost for bolts, nuts, and labor if I can’t do it myself ?

The boat is a 32’ colin archer, w. oak timbers, and iron keel.

Thanks !

[centroid]

Correction: after further research, I believe the keel is concrete with iron or lead shots and the keel is surrounded by what seems to be a steel form-work of some kind, not iron. Since the previous owner looked for side or bottom pockets on the keel and did not find any, it is believed that the keel bolts are cast into the concrete keel by bending the end in the shape of the L or U. which means if you want to change the keel bolts, you would have to cut out the existing bolts, drop out the keel, and form a new keel.

This sounds like a lot of work to me ?!

[Seth Wood]

I believe that if the keelboats were cut, the keel would not drop off so much as need to be cut or really, chipped/hammered off. That's assuming you could somehow get through or remove the steel casing.

How do you know it's concrete inside that steel?
In any case, replacing the keelbolts could, potentially, be very difficult.

[Figment]

A "steel form work" with cast-in concrete ballast as a keel? It seems to me that the differential thermal expansion should have separated the two long ago. keep that thing out of direct sunlight! (half-joking)

Setting new keelbolts in that concrete may not be as difficult as you think. I doubt you'd need to cast a new keel. It's common practice in the building industry to bore concrete and set new anchor bolts in epoxy. I may be blindly applying landlubber technology to a marine application, but to my mind if those applications are rated for seismic loads, they've gotta be able to handle keel-hanging duties.

[RGM]

The good news is you are still "thinking" about buying it. Unless the price is incredibly attractive you may want to pass on this one. Your initial question about "how big of a job is replacing keel bolts" can be answered pretty easily. As wood boat repairs go it usually doesn't get much deeper, darker, dirtier, more mysterious and more costly than replacing keel bolts. Just do a search here on "keel bolts" and see what kind of testimonies comes up, if you already haven't. Now, throw in a monkey wrench like the apparent construction/configuration of the ballast keel that you're talking about and you're making Ed Harrow's, Concordia 41's and a few other's projects look like a walk in the park. The suggestion of doing some concrete drilling and coring and epoxy bedding "ala up-town construction" might be considered. However, epoxy is not waterproof, your ballast is old water soaked concrete, you don't know what you've got in the way of steel cross members or longitudinal members tying the ballast keel together. How's your X-Ray vision lately? I would avoid this one. Replacing keel bolts almost always evolves into replacing floor timbers and refastening frame heels to new floor timbers, repairing/replacing frames, removing planks....The job tends to grow by leaps and bounds. Good luck.

[ 08-30-2002, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: RGM ]

[centroid]

seth wood said "How do you know it's concrete inside that steel? "

Hmmm, good question. i guess i'm not 100% sure. is there any reason why there would be steel on the outside of the keel ?

from my last discussion with the previous owner, he said when he sandblasted the bottom, some of the stuff that was coming off the bottom was "flaking off". therefor, its not iron because iron does not flake off like that with age.

hmmmm?

[Bob Cleek]

RGM said it all. If she's a "give away" and she's got good bronze hardware on her, it would be worth the time and trouble to take a Sawzall to her and salvage the fittings. Not so, probably, if you have to dispose of the rest of her yourself. The dump fees and transport are more than the fittings are worth. I don't care if she's free, you figure the work you have to put into hanging a new keel on her can't possibly be worth it. Certainly, with a "bucket of bolts" keel, the rest of her is probably cobbed together as well. WALK AWAY FROM IT! Not every old wooden boat is worth that kind of work. Only the pedigreed classics are worth getting into the sort of grief you are contemplating. Better to put your effort into a classic like Ed's S&S or a Concordia. Not a "75 year old Colin Archer. The odds of her really being 75 years old are very slim, frankly. The odds of her really being a real "Colin Archer" are even slimmer. Don't believe what the last owner tells you. LOL Do you have 75 years worth of ownership records? Is she documented with a builder's certificate? If her builder's certificate is 75 years old and you can prove her provenance to Archer's drafting table, well, maybe somebody put that keel on later and you might want to think about it... but... NAW... WALK AWAY FROM IT! LOL

[Concordia..41]

Replacing keel bolts can be a major job on a cast iron or lead ballast keel. Sarah has a cast iron ballast and I had to cut the keel and lifting bolts. Trying to jack the keel bolts out of the keel would not work. The jack was lifting the boat off the stands. I also had to cut the keel bolts between the dead wood and the keel. I then had to grind off what was left of the nuts and drive the keel bolts out from the inside.
The only way you will know what the ballast is made of is to haul the vessel and will probably have to core drill the ballast. I doubt the present owner would agree to this. If you do find out it is a steel shell filled with concrete, it will probably be easier to fabricate a new ballast.
Margo has posted some pis’s of the removal of our ballast. www.sailingwithsarah.com (http://www.sailingwithsarah.com) Click on projects and then ballast removal. You can also go to owners and go to Concordia #17, Actaea and click on photos. Tony Harwell's concordia has a lead ballast.

Dave

Sun over the foreyard.

[Jeff Kelety]

"how big of a job is replacing keel bolts"

Well in my case, twasn't just the bolts, but all the floors that went with 'em as well. So you better be very much in love with this boat or be able to acquire it for a VERY good price. My boat is 25'. I think it was about a three to four week effort to replace floors and bolts. Multiple 160 hours by whatever the going rate for a good shipwright in your area plus materials. Did I mention that you better love this boat VERY much?

jgk

jgk

[Concordia..41]

Centroid - They're all right, but give particular weight to RGM's 'keel bolts are as bad as it gets' and Jeff's point that you don't 'just replace keel bolts' - if the keel bolts are bad, unless the rest of the boat has had extensive [read professional] restoration work in the last 20 years, once you start you'll probably find yourself replacing the floors. Then there's frames, deck beams, deck, etc. It's kindof like the old song, "the foot bone's connected to the ankle bone..."

Rich Van Valkenberg has some great posts on the work he's done on Sonja's stem and keel. There's a good example of a) great workmanship and b) just how huge a project something can turn into.

It sounds like your heart's in the right place and you're going about it right by bringing in a surveyor. How about a smaller boat - one that wouldn't be prone to so many structural issues? On another thread some lucky SOB was given a 19' Lightning. I was looking at a little 15' runabout a couple days ago, but Dave got out the Yellow Pages and started looking up divorce attorneys so I backed off. Guess we'll stick with the Concordia for now.

Good luck making the right choice.

- Margo

Jeff smile.gif smile.gif

You replaced your floors and bolts in four weeks :cool:

How would you feel about a trip to Florida ?????

- M

[Kannon Bosatsu]

Damn, I can't say enough to warn you away. After buying Jester last year with the advice from the owner and surveyor that the keel bolts needed replacing, I am know looking at about 1400 man hours in replacing not only the bolts but the keelson, the horn timber, the stem and the transom knee. Oh yeah, and replacing floors and frame tips... I thought, and unfortunatly didn't know this site existed, that it would take me just a few weeks out by the bay, drink a few beers, have some friends visit, work by day, drink by night and badaboom I'd be sailing. Nooooo my friend, unless she's a giveaway and you fancy some wood for the fire this wineter, walk away. Seriously, I was stubborn and I can't tell you how foolish I feel as a result... watch yer step.

[Ed Harrow]

Then there are fools like me - smart enough to at least get a damn good surveyor, first, LOL. That means, so far at least, no surprises, but for how long it takes to make progress sometimes. If you are good at multi-tasking (I'm not) at least progress can be made on one front while things are slow on another.

Bob, thanks for the endoresment.

Centroid, are we talking free? I don't know about the others, but if this boat is 75 years old, I find this hodgepodge ballast a bit odd. Are you certain? I think you mentioned flaking, and that someone said iron doesn't flake. Come to Our Lady of St Phoenix and I'll show you more flaking iron than you really want to see. Walk very carefully.

Look at my site and what I've done thus far (it's getting close to being updated, maybe this week). Don't look at Dave and Margo's site as they are pros, and working in a yard (unless, of course, you have the same qualifications). Working on one's own, struggling to figure out how to solve one or another problem, with neither the required equipment or expertise can be frustrating...

As Ian would say, "G'luck."

[centroid]

thanks for your comments so far. i do love this boat but from the replies i got, i don't love it that much.

ed- she's definitely not a free boat. somewhere between 20-30k. i haven't talked about money yet with the owner. i am a bit curious about the keel being concrete too. but the previous owner (a shipwright) said he's pretty sure. he sandblasted the keel and the area that the metal fell away, he definitely saw some concrete like substance with rivets or iron shots mixed in.

my wife and i are rethinking about purchasing her.

can i get some web address for ed and margo's site from someone please ?

[Kannon Bosatsu]

Go to Eds post and click on the little face in front of what looks like an envelope to the right of his name. That'll lead you there. By the way, I bought Jester for 20k (felt good, talked him down from 25k). If I put her in a yard for the work at 1400 man hours that'll run my about 60k. Think long and hard, then walk away. Speaking of freebies though, I just got a n International Star. Don't know anything about dates or builder, but that should be good cord or two LOL

[Jeff Kelety]

<20-30k.>

For 32' of boat that will likely need all new floors and keel bolts just for starters? No bargain here, me thinks. If you have $30K to put in a boat, you can likely pick up a structurally sound craft that needs paint, varnish and some new lockers seats. Be VERY wary.

jgk

[ford]

whilst discussing your problem with a renowned designer/builder/shipwright, he recalled many yachts having copper keel bolts, the idea being that as the timber swelled, the copper bolts would stretch unlike SS.

[Concordia..41]

Ed - Pros???? That's a laugh. Well Dave maybe.

He continues to amaze me on a daily basis. The sum total of my day was a bit of wiring cut out where some of the Lectrasan controls were still attached and a small handfull of screws extracted from what's left of the head cabinetry. Forty+ years of paint makes the screw heads a little hard to locate sometimes :rolleyes:

In the mean time Dave measured for a floor, planed a piece of white oak, turned it into a floor with a bazillion different angles, and steamed a frame in his spare time.

centroid - this is our website: www.sailingwithsarah.com (http://www.sailingwithsarah.com)

We're confusing because both my husband, Dave, and I post under Concordia..41

For the record, we're 26 months into what we thought would be a three month project. One of the locals who considered bidding on her at the sale stopped by today. He comes by every month or so, has a good look around, and generally thanks his lucky stars he didn't buy her. Oh well, I'm glad he didn't buy her too :D

- Margo

[Jeff Kelety]

<For the record, we're 26 months into what we thought would be a three month project. >

Ah, I see this is one of the speedier wooden boat projects ;) .

I thought I'd have my cockpit all wooded and varnished in three weeks when I acquired Nais. Fifth summer, I still have one piece left to go. That beaded woodwork does not go quickly, or is it my beaded hand that goes slowly? Sigh.

jgk

[ 09-04-2002, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Kelety ]

[centroid]

Well, I just wanted to revisit the topic one more time. After looking at some photos of dave/margo’s and ed’s site, it got me a little curious.

Most of you mentioned changing keel bolts could possibly lead into replacing frame/ frame ends, floors, beams, etc. But if a boat that has a keel that is loosening up, there would be signs first, right ? there would be water in the bilge, some softening of the wood around some nuts and bolts, maybe soft frame ends. There might be gaps noticeable from the outside of the keel between the concrete keel and keel timber. But mostly, there would be signs of water coming in constantly.

But this boat does not show those signs. There was a major restoration that was done 12 years ago to the deck/ beams/ refastened by a professional boatyard. So the boat is water tight on the deck and inside the bilge too. They did not do anything to the keel or keel bolts. The surveyor was quite surprised to see that she is in such good shape for her age. He did not find any soft wood (although I still need to talk to him more about the keel).

So I accept the fact that if I change the keel bolts, it would be a lot of work. It would be a lot more work due to the concrete keel. But what if she doesn’t need to be changed right now ? Is it possible that the nut is rusty on top due to exposure to air and since there are not sign (as I mentioned above) . I would be interested in doing the work before the floors are rotted, or the frames softening up. Although the floors might be destroyed in order to get the bolts out.

This boat was built in Denmark, she’s built quite well according to the surveyor. Looking at the rest of the boat, I don’t know why they would put a concrete keel in. I just don’t know…..

[Jeff Kelety]

<But if a boat that has a keel that is loosening up, there would be signs first, right ? there would be water in the bilge, some softening of the wood around some nuts and bolts, maybe soft frame ends. >

Not necessarily. Could be hidden. I've observed twice now (both Folkboats with oak floors and iron bolts) that when the bolts came out, the floors disintegrated. Not saying this will happen to you. But just figure it in as a very possible possibility as you judge the value of the boat. Good to be conservative at this stage. It's like when I purchase an older Volkswagon. I always figure in the cost of a new motor (i.e. Asking price + cost of new motor = true cost of VW) cause they wear out.

Good luck.
jgk