PDA

View Full Version : Turkey blocks danish PM appointment because of cartoons.



Tinman
04-04-2009, 02:38 PM
Turkey dosn't want Denmarks PM to be the head of NATO. Care to make a comment?

http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=6863

Flying Orca
04-04-2009, 03:32 PM
My comment: this is what happens when society gives superstitions protected status.

seanz
04-04-2009, 03:55 PM
From a fair and balanced news site........
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2009/04/200944132144764492.html



Rasmussen infuriated some Muslims by speaking out in favour of freedom of speech during the row over the publication of cartoons featuring caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed in the Jyllands Posten newspaper in 2006.

Turkey had also accused Rasmussen of failing to act on Turkish requests to ban a Denmark-based TV station, ROJ TV, linked to Kurdish fighters who have been fighting for an ethnic homeland in Turkey since 1984.

He has also angered Turkey by opposing its membership in the European Union.

Meanwhile in another part of the world......more quirky religious news.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/israeli-papers-airbush-women-ministers-from-photos-20090404-9sgh.html

BarnacleGrim
04-04-2009, 04:03 PM
They're certainly making an effort to meet the EU membership criteria :rolleyes:

I'm all for EU enlargement, but they really need to stop screwing around.

Tinman
04-04-2009, 04:07 PM
My comment: this is what happens when society gives superstitions protected status.

I'd modify that a little and say when it gives ONE PARTUICULAR religion protected status. It should be either all religions, or none. Period.

seanz
04-04-2009, 04:20 PM
I'm with you there.
:D

B_B
04-04-2009, 04:21 PM
I'd modify that a little and say when it gives ONE PARTUICULAR religion protected status. It should be either all religions, or none. Period.
Once again you get it wrong.
From the first hit off a google search "religious freedom in Turkey"

Turkey

International Religious Freedom Report 2002

Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor

The Constitution provides for freedom of religion, and the Government generally respects this right in practice; however, the Government imposes some restrictions on religious groups and on religious expression in government offices and state-run institutions, including universities.

There was no significant change in the status of respect for religious freedom during the period covered by this report. Some Muslims, Christians, and Baha'is faced some restrictions and occasional harassment, including detentions for alleged proselytizing or unauthorized meetings.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/13986.htm

http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLF_enCA309CA309&q=religious+freedom+in+turkey

Tinman
04-04-2009, 04:27 PM
"...International Religious Freedom Report 2002.."

Check the date dude. This piece was written BEFORE the cartoons where published. In case ya missed it.

B_B
04-04-2009, 04:37 PM
Check the date dude. This piece was written BEFORE the cartoons where published. In case ya missed it.

WHOA!! you got me there! Goodness I feel like such a dweeb.

Turkey

International Religious Freedom Report 2008

The Constitution provides for freedom of religion, and other laws and policies contributed to the generally free practice of religion, but constitutional provisions regarding the integrity and existence of the secular state restrict these rights.

The Government generally respected religious freedom in practice; however, the Government imposes limitations on Islamic and other religious groups and significant restrictions on Islamic religious expression in government offices and state-run institutions, including universities, for the stated reason of preserving the "secular state." There was no change in the status of respect for religious freedom by the Government during the period covered by this report. In February 2008 the Parliament passed constitutional amendments designed to lift the ban against wearing headscarves on university campuses. However, on June 5, 2008, the Constitutional Court ruled that amendments intended to permit the wearing of headscarves in universities violated the secular nature of the state and were therefore unconstitutional.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2008/108476.htm


EDIT - that's three times on one friggin thread you've gotten it wrong, going for a fourth?

Tinman
04-04-2009, 05:36 PM
"International Religious Freedom Report 2002"

"International Religious Freedom Report 2008"

The first sentence is a direct cut and paste from YOUR first post. The second one is from your SECOND post. So either you where wrong the first time, or you are wrong now. Care to clarify for us? Or is there some sloppy editing going on here?

Peerie Maa
04-04-2009, 05:43 PM
"International Religious Freedom Report 2002"

"International Religious Freedom Report 2008"

The first sentence is a direct cut and paste from YOUR first post. The second one is from your SECOND post. So either you where wrong the first time, or you are wrong now. Care to clarify for us? Or is there some sloppy editing going on here?

Tinpot, you must love being abused.
Click on the link.
Perhaps the Turkish government commission an update of the report every two, three or six years. Sheesh:confused:

Tinman
04-04-2009, 05:48 PM
Tinpot, you must love being abused.
Click on the link.
Perhaps the Turkish government commission an update of the report every two, three or six years. Sheesh:confused:

I am simply going by what he posted. Even in the first link the date 2002 can clearly be seen.

Peerie Maa
04-04-2009, 05:51 PM
I am simply going by what he posted. Even in the first link the date 2002 can clearly be seen.

This link: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2008/108476.htm

It's impossible to help some people.:p

B_B
04-04-2009, 05:51 PM
"International Religious Freedom Report 2002"

"International Religious Freedom Report 2008"

The first sentence is a direct cut and paste from YOUR first post. The second one is from your SECOND post. So either you where wrong the first time, or you are wrong now. Care to clarify for us? Or is there some sloppy editing going on here?
Follow the links genius - they're included at the bottom of the post precisely so you can check my sources.

Read the rest of the cut and paste, get beyond the dates and READ the first freakin line! - they're different! Why? Different reports!


Perhaps the Turkish government commission an update of the report every two, three or six years.

Peerie Maa - They are US State Department Reports. I doubt Turkey has much influence.

B_B
04-04-2009, 05:57 PM
I am simply going by what he posted. Even in the first link the date 2002 can clearly be seen.
Goodness, READ beyond the headlines for a second will ya!

You are not going by what I posted, you are going by a single fact in each post, which happen to be the same....the headline.

"impossible to help some people" is spot on.

Flying Orca
04-04-2009, 06:06 PM
I'd modify that a little and say when it gives ONE PARTUICULAR religion protected status. It should be either all religions, or none. Period.

It certainly shouldn't be "all" (shudder).

I think you've missed my point, Nick, so let me spell it out for you: nobody's myths should be given special protected status. No taboo against calling bullshyte, no special laws or tax arrangements (WTF is up with that?!), no special days off work, and above all - no respect for the bastards who try to impose their mythology on others.

According myths special status is the root cause of this problem. Unfortunately, being rather attached to your own, you may have trouble recognizing that. On the other hand, you may not; I'm sure we'll see somewhere along this thread. :)

Paul Pless
04-04-2009, 06:14 PM
Care to make a comment?nope

PeterSibley
04-04-2009, 06:28 PM
Read my tag Tinny .

Tinman
04-04-2009, 08:15 PM
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/13986.htm (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/13986.htm)

Now it is funny that you paste the second link that you put up in your second post, after I pointed out the date embedded in this link from the first post you put up. Since the earlier date was the one I commented on, how can you then critisize me for making a mistake with a post that came later and a link that shows a different date? Why did you not post the second link from the later document first, or at least with the first one?

Kieth, I am for according religion no special status regardless of what religion it is. Even mine. Everyone should have the right to say what the like about any religion guided by good taste. If the believers of said faith are so insecure that they must shut down comment and criticism through intimidation and or legislation, then the problem lies with the believer and not those being critical.

JimD
04-04-2009, 08:50 PM
Nato should stop calling itself Nato. What's Turkey got to do with the North Atlantic. What's Nato got to do with the North Atlantic anymore?

B_B
04-04-2009, 09:19 PM
Now it is funny that you paste the second link that you put up in your second post, after I pointed out the date embedded in this link from the first post you put up. Since the earlier date was the one I commented on, how can you then critisize me for making a mistake with a post that came later and a link that shows a different date? Why did you not post the second link from the later document first, or at least with the first one?

Lets review:

1-You posted a link to a blog posting which states that Turkey doesn't want the Danish PM to lead NATO due to his support of the cartoonists during the cartoon fiasco - blogger does not support supposition with links to news articles or other sources for this supposition.

2-SeanZ posts a very valid rebuttle that possibly the opposition has as much to do with Danish resistance to Turkey joining the EU - a point you choose to ignore because it doesn't fit into your ridiculous agenda.

3-You incorrectly assert that Turkey is a single religion country which protects Islam but doesn't protect 'other religions'

4-when someone, knowing Turkey is a constitutional Secular Democracy, searches for a link to some article you may find more persuasive than his own assertion, you blindly lash out at the date of the article, without doing any investigating on your own - "Dude".

5-that person then finds a more current article which states that not only is Turkey a Secular Democracy but that they discriminate against Islam, and that a proposed constitutional amendmant allowing the Burkha, has been shot down by the courts, you retort by saying that that poster was using 'sloppy editing' to prove a point.

You accuse me of 'sloppy editing' when you can't even friggin read? or follow a conversation?

Good lord!

Tinman
04-04-2009, 11:48 PM
Lets review:

1-You posted a link to a blog posting which states that Turkey doesn't want the Danish PM to lead NATO due to his support of the cartoonists during the cartoon fiasco - blogger does not support supposition with links to news articles or other sources for this supposition.

2-SeanZ posts a very valid rebuttle that possibly the opposition has as much to do with Danish resistance to Turkey joining the EU - a point you choose to ignore because it doesn't fit into your ridiculous agenda.

3-You incorrectly assert that Turkey is a single religion country which protects Islam but doesn't protect 'other religions'

4-when someone, knowing Turkey is a constitutional Secular Democracy, searches for a link to some article you may find more persuasive than his own assertion, you blindly lash out at the date of the article, without doing any investigating on your own - "Dude".

5-that person then finds a more current article which states that not only is Turkey a Secular Democracy but that they discriminate against Islam, and that a proposed constitutional amendmant allowing the Burkha, has been shot down by the courts, you retort by saying that that poster was using 'sloppy editing' to prove a point.

You accuse me of 'sloppy editing' when you can't even friggin read? or follow a conversation?

Good lord!

Oh brother. Look. Let me "splain this to you so even you get it. Even though Turkey is officially a secular government, it's population is vastly islamic. And by vastly, I mean 99%. But I guess taht wouldn't play into how a government wants to be seen at home by its own when it comes to events on the world stage, right? Turkey can publish all the reports it wants, but the reality is, that the people who vote for the government of Istanbul don't like Denmark, or NATO for that matter, so the government of that country decided to flex some muscle on the world stage. Get it now? IF NATO had captitulated, radical muslims everywhere would have seen it as a sign of weakness. For now it dons't matter, the Americans whispered something in Istanbuls ear and they dropped thier opposition to the Danish PM.

The reason I talked about sloppy editing, was for the reasons I already articulated. The original link was dated 2002, and that is what I responded too. THEN the second link from 2008 appeared, and the attack began. I wasn't wrong about the differnce in the timeline between the cartoons and the article that was first mentioned, and I am not wrong about the reason for turkeys resistance to the appointment. Even my comment about "protecting religions" you misunderstood or misrepresented. My comment about that was general in nature, and not region specific. I really didn't think I would have to chew this for you first. Apparantly, I was wrong.

B_B
04-05-2009, 12:32 AM
Turkey can publish all the reports it wants, .
As stated these are studies by the UNITED STATES State Dept.

Turkey had NOTHING to do with the reports.

Got that?

Good. Now if you'd only read them, even you might learn something, god forbid.


but the reality is, that the people who vote for the government of Istanbul don't like Denmark, or NATO for that matter, so the government of that country decided to flex some muscle on the world stage. Get it now? .
If they did this why didn't your blogger post a link? What is his source? What is your source besides this blogger?


THEN the second link from 2008 appeared
Good gracious.

The link to the 2008 article appeared, in the post quoting the 2008 article, because you didn't like the 2002 article!!!!!!

Get that?

It's not a conspiracy, it's not some nefarious editing, it's me trying to HELP you with the up-to-date information you so dearly wanted!

I am but your humble servant.
You make a mistake I correct!
You ask for newer information I provide!


and the attack began..
Your attack started well before that - "Dude".
My attack was clearly stated in the first sentence of my first post "Once again you get it wrong."
You still are getting it wrong on, oh, so many, levels.


and I am not wrong about the reason for turkeys resistance to the appointment...
Yep, you are wrong. You assert that the only reason Turkey opposed the appointment was because of the cartoons.

SeanZ has an equally probable, and more SANE, explanation.


Even my comment about "protecting religions" you misunderstood or misrepresented. My comment about that was general in nature, and not region specific. ...
How stupid of me -
-Orca made a comment specifically responding to your headline: "Turkey blocks danish [sic] PM appointment because of cartoons"
-to which you responded: "I'd modify that a little and say when it gives ONE PARTUICULAR religion protected status. It should be either all religions, or none. Period."

And from this I am to infer that you did NOT mean Turkey? Are you nuts?

As shown in the links provided, which you still have not bothered to read, Turkey's Constitution, and Law Courts, restrain Islam and protect all other religions.

You are incredibly ignorant of [all] facts, and despite repeated requests to do so, are unwilling to even pretend to read United States State Department reports which conflict with your narrow minded, navel gazing, view of the world.

There are two Turkeys being discussed here, one is a country.

Tinman
04-05-2009, 01:47 AM
"..You are incredibly ignorant of [all] facts, and despite repeated requests to do so, are unwilling to even pretend to read United States State Department reports which conflict with your narrow minded, navel gazing, view of the world.

There are two Turkeys being discussed here, one is a country. ."

Very whitty. Almost clever. What amazes me, is that you think that a country with a muslim population of 99% is going to protect minority religious groups? It is you sir, that are ignorant of the facts. Can you illustate for me, anywhere in the world today where a country has a muslim populaton that high, that does what you say turkey does? Even one? Let me know when you find it. What makes you think Turkey is so different in this regard? While it is certainly true that what you are talking about was in fact once the case, it is no longer true now. So I await your submission of another country that does what you seem to think Turkey capable of, that no one esle is. It should be delightful reading.

BarnacleGrim
04-05-2009, 03:58 AM
From what I gather from Orhan Pamuk's novel Snow Turkey is pretty much Atatürk secularists, Islamists and Kurd nationalists fighting and oppressing each other as best they can, with varying results. It may be a democracy on paper, but it doesn't work that way in real life. As I said before, they need to stop screwing around, and they need to stop fast. It's not as easy as the secularists altogether defeating the other groups, the change must happen in a democratic fashion.

skuthorp
04-05-2009, 05:07 AM
There's a state funded 'christian' school here refusing a placement of a muslim student teacher, I quote flying Orca: "this is what happens when society gives superstitions protected status."
Just a microsm of the world really. We may be at the peak of our technological power, but at base we haven't evolved much from dispirit, ignorant tribal groups under the power of their shaman and the fear of the unknown.

Tinman
04-05-2009, 07:25 AM
Andrew, as of this moment, I have not recieved it. It is possible that it is in an email account that I cannot check from the station, so I'll let you know later today if it is there.

BarnacleGrim
04-05-2009, 08:28 AM
There's a state funded 'christian' school here refusing a placement of a muslim student teacher, I quote flying Orca: "this is what happens when society gives superstitions protected status."
Just a microsm of the world really. We may be at the peak of our technological power, but at base we haven't evolved much from dispirit, ignorant tribal groups under the power of their shaman and the fear of the unknown.
It's really a form of savagery. I know it's not a politically correct thing to say, since a century ago one would attribute it to ethnicity. Now we know that is not the case, but the savagery persists. Just look at the numerous genocides in history, and the ones that still happen today. Of course, Turkey is very civilized compared to, say, Somalia or Sudan...

LeeG
04-05-2009, 08:52 AM
the title of this thread is incorrect, must be from another of Tinmns stellar sources. I wonder if Tinman is familiar with the story behind Turkeys refusal to allow the 4th infantry access to Iraq in 2003 or the shift in US standng with Turkeys population over the last ten years.

juancole.com

Saturday, April 04, 2009
Turkey Blocks Rasmussen at NATO

The NATO summit is off to a shaky start. It was supposed to elect a new leader, and the Obama administration backed Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen for the role. Rasmussen has been a strong supporter of the NATO mission in Afghanistan, where there are Danish troops, at a time when many European countries in NATO are dragging their feet on this issue. Rasmussen, however, proved unacceptable to Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Recep Erdogan. Turkey is the only Muslim-majority country in NATO.

Some of the wire services have unduly simplified Turkey's opposition, but the Turkish press tells a more complex story. Rasmussen was backed by Turkish President Abdullah Gul, who should have had the final say, but Prime Minister Erdogan over-ruled him. So "Turkey" did not block Rasmussen, Erdogan did. (Gul and Erdogan both belong to the Justice and Development Party (AKP), which is mildly tinged with political Islam, so the difference between the two is personal, not party-based).

In turn, Erdogan did not simply shoot down Rasmussen's candidacy because the latter declined to intervene against the publication in a Danish newspaper of cruel caricatures of Islam and the Prophet Muhammad.

Rather, a key issue for Erdogan was that Denmark has hosted Roj-TV, a Kurdish-language station that Turkey maintains supports the separatist Kurdish Worker's Party (PKK) that has attacked Turkish troops and other targets in eastern Anatolia, and which is widely designated as a terrorist organization.

Turkey hosted one in a series of regular tripartite conferences in Ankara earlier this week, attended by Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai and Pakistani President Asaf Ali Zardari. Personally, I wonder if Zardari weighed in with Gul against Rasmussen, since his heading NATO could tar the whole enterprise in Afghanistan and Pakistan with the brush of supercilious European hostility to Islam, from the point of view of the major Muslim leaders.

(For Turkish politics, see Kamil Pasha (scroll down for comments on the implications of the outcome of the recent provincial elections).

The next big challenge for NATO is to reach a consensus on Afghanistan, which won't be easy. Canada is leaving Afghanistan in 2012. Obama wants his allies to be in for the long haul.

B_B
04-05-2009, 12:59 PM
What amazes me, is that you think that a country with a muslim population of 99% is going to protect minority religious groups? It is you sir, that are ignorant of the facts.

from my second post:

In February 2008 the Parliament passed constitutional amendments designed to lift the ban against wearing headscarves on university campuses. However, on June 5, 2008, the Constitutional Court ruled that amendments intended to permit the wearing of headscarves in universities violated the secular nature of the state and were therefore unconstitutional

Lets stick to Turkey - you seem to have difficulty with just one set of facts, lets not muddy the water with yet more issues.

The insinuation that all Muslims think alike shows a complete and utter disregard for reality.

B_B
04-05-2009, 01:08 PM
Rather, a key issue for Erdogan was that Denmark has hosted Roj-TV, a Kurdish-language station that Turkey maintains supports the separatist Kurdish Worker's Party (PKK) that has attacked Turkish troops and other targets in eastern Anatolia, and which is widely designated as a terrorist organization.

Yet another, much more understandable, reason why Turkey may want to block Danish leadership of NATO.

So we have:
1-Denmark opposed Turkish inclusion in the EU
2-Denmark hosts a radio station which maintains support of a separatist agenda (some say Terrorist Agenda) against Turkey
3-Danish refusal to stifle some anti-Islamic cartoons.

The only cartoon we are left with is some fellow who thinks all Muslims think alike, that Turkey is an Islamofascist state, and that all politics in the Middle East is black and white 'us good them bad'.

Nuance Tinman; not everything is as simple as you propose.

Tinman
04-05-2009, 05:33 PM
Yet another, much more understandable, reason why Turkey may want to block Danish leadership of NATO.

So we have:
1-Denmark opposed Turkish inclusion in the EU
2-Denmark hosts a radio station which maintains support of a separatist agenda (some say Terrorist Agenda) against Turkey
3-Danish refusal to stifle some anti-Islamic cartoons.

The only cartoon we are left with is some fellow who thinks all Muslims think alike, that Turkey is an Islamofascist state, and that all politics in the Middle East is black and white 'us good them bad'.

Nuance Tinman; not everything is as simple as you propose.

Ok, enough of this nonsense. As I indicated earlier, the reason Turkey was resisting the installation of the Danish PM, was precisely because of the cartoons. How can I be so sure? Easy. This morning I conducted a half hour interview with Lars Hedegaard who is a journalist and historian in Denmark. The paper that printed the cartoons that started it all, sought his advice about what the possible consequences might be, and he told them quite bluntly, that "All hell woud break loose" He was of course proven right. According to Mr Hedegaard, there was no internal reisistance to the appointment of the PM to the top NATO job by his political opponents Denmark and that the whole legeslative assembly supported the move. The interview will be posted online and when it is, I shall provide the link so you can hear it for yourselves. That should take place this evening.

Flying Orca
04-05-2009, 05:35 PM
Uh, Nick - as interesting as your chat with Mr Hedegaard may be, I can't see how it has any bearing on what Turkey says is Turkey's reason for blocking the appointment...?

Tinman
04-05-2009, 07:06 PM
Uh, Nick - as interesting as your chat with Mr Hedegaard may be, I can't see how it has any bearing on what Turkey says is Turkey's reason for blocking the appointment...?

Mr Hedegaard has been "on the ground" so to speak since this whole thing started back in 2005. He has been paying very close attention to what Turkey has been saying as well as his governments response to those comments from Istanbul. Of all of us commenting on this, he has a much better vantage point and by extension, perspective, than any of us have on this issue. I would think that his insights would merit attention all things considered.

Flying Orca
04-05-2009, 08:52 PM
Attention, sure... but given that his is a Danish perspective (and one amongst many, at that), one would think it may not be the best to explain Turkey's perspective on this.

Tinman
04-05-2009, 09:12 PM
My friend, I must gently disagree. I would suggest that what you are saying is like a referee during a hockey game, not being in the best position to call a penalty because he is in the thick of things.

Flying Orca
04-05-2009, 09:23 PM
See, now, to me it's like asking a Maple Loaf why he was hooked by a Hab. ;)

LeeG
04-05-2009, 09:25 PM
sh*t for brains marches on

Tinman
04-05-2009, 09:33 PM
sh*t for brains marches on

Don't be picken on Flying Orca. It isn't his fault he is a habs fan.

LeeG
04-05-2009, 09:41 PM
Attention, sure... but given that his is a Danish perspective (and one amongst many, at that), one would think it may not be the best to explain Turkey's perspective on this.

Lars of the IFPS has the answer,,when you want to know what motivates Turkey,,ask Lars,,or Tinman, he has a show.

Tinman
04-05-2009, 09:57 PM
Hey Lee? I could not possibly care less if you like me. That is so besides the point it isn't even mildly funny. What I would suggest though, is that when a guy like Lars, who is actually in the center of the situation that is being discussed tells you how it is, you really otta take off the "I hate everything conservative" blinders and listen. You will be mortified to discover he knows a fair amount more about this, than either one of us. So get over yourself, and actually pay attention for once.

Flying Orca
04-05-2009, 10:07 PM
Don't be picken on Flying Orca. It isn't his fault he is a habs fan.

I can't help it, I lived in New Brunswick when I was young and impressionable. :p

B_B
04-06-2009, 12:15 AM
Tinman;
Why it matters.

If Turkey is really worried about a pro-Terrorism Radio station Denmark, and is worried about inclusion to the EU, but we treat them with disrespect by caricaturing their opposition (given the first two suppositions, their very real and very justified opposition) as mere 'anti-cartoonism', then why, pray tell, should they co-operate with us in the fight against Islamization and Islamic terror?

If we caricature them as defenders of cartoons when their agenda is deeper, more nuanced, why the hell should they do anything to participate with us in a defence of the liberties enshrined in their constitution?

What help would a secular leaning governance system - legal and executive branches - get from a western world which caricaturizes them all, paints them all with the same brush, and ignores them, in the overwhelming fight against Islamic radicalism?

You see, your simplistic "us good them bad" view of the world shoots you in the foot, in the long run. You need allies. You need help - especially "over there". If you ignore those willing to help, if you neglect legal systems which are set up to help, then you will pay a much higher price later on.

This is why nuance matters. This is why simple answers are usually wrong - because they cause us to fall short of our goals.

Turkey -the country, the laws, the governance systems - is not a hegemony of religion, it is not a hegemony of anti-western politics, IT IS a constitutional SECULAR democracy.

Now we can either support that, build on that, help that, or we can caricaturize them all as Islamofascists and be done with it.

What do you want Nick?
You want another Iran?
Or another Afghanistan?
Or Another Iraq?

Or would you rather have another Egypt - WITH all its issues, and all its problems?

Which does your attitude promote?

What is Lars' agenda? Truth - or, like you, an irrational, knee jerk, navel gazing, opposition to all things Islam?

B_B
04-06-2009, 12:26 AM
... when a guy like Lars ... tells you how it is, you really otta take off the ... blinders and listen.
Tinman, whenever someone "tells you how it is" you otta know that they don't know a damned thing. Especially when, with a fellow like Lars, they have a well published agenda concerning the certain idea, ideology, or religion which they are 'telling you how it is'.

Sadly YOU only listen to someone when they agree with your agenda.

ChaseKenyon
04-06-2009, 01:00 AM
Almost clever. What amazes me, is that you think that a country with a muslim population of 99% is going to protect minority religious groups?

TinMan

Last time I checked there were significant numbers of Baha'Is in Turkey as well as numbers of Zoroastrians/Parsees With a number of fire temples.


With your general attitude I have done the research in the past but Google it yourself. You seem to make statements first then try to find corroboration afterwards.

My grad school mentor a Parsee from India with four PHDs (two there and two in the US) always said:

Research first

analyze second

postulate possibilities third


Return to step one and two

postulate probabilities.

Absolutes are for the uneducated brain dead.

Just MHO

pila
04-06-2009, 02:14 AM
Most bad things seem to be about or from religion. It's always in the news somewhere. Maybe every one should worship the sun:D

LeeG
04-06-2009, 04:55 AM
Tinmans Danish expert on Turkey and Nato,,he's a right wing columnist who has an anti-Islamic focus. This is as good as your prior expertise on abiogenic oil and self-refilling oil fields.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=da&u=http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Hedegaard&ei=887ZSYuoConglQfDvfDlDA&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=3&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DLars%2BHedegaard%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG



"The modern Islamism, which nearly all Danish Imams advocate, calls itself a religion, but is first and foremost a political ideology in line with communism and Nazism." [4]

LeeG
04-06-2009, 05:59 AM
Hey Tinman,,are you providing Lars Hedegaard an opportunity to promote Geert Wilders 17minute film ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_(film)

Fitna (Arabic: فِتْنَةٌ‎) is a 2008 short film by Dutch parliamentarian Geert Wilders. Approximately 17 minutes in length, the film shows selected excerpts from Suras of the Qur'an, interspersed with media clips and newspaper clippings showing or describing acts of violence and/or hatred by Muslims. The film wishes to demonstrate that the Qur'an motivates its followers to hate all who violate the Islamic teachings. Consequently, the film argues, Islam encourages, among others, acts of terrorism, antisemitism, violence against women, and Islamic universalism. A large part of the film deals with the influence of Islam on the Netherlands.


http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45928

WASHINGTON, Feb 28 (IPS) - The fiercely anti-Islam Dutch MP Geert Wilders has been traveling through the U.S. this week on a highly-publicised trip to meet with politicians, promote his controversial film ‘Fitna’, and raise money for his legal defence back home.

..

His trip has also been heavily promoted by conservative blogger Pamela Geller, who sponsored a reception for him in Washington on Friday. Geller is perhaps best known for alleging during the 2008 presidential campaign that now-President Barack Obama is the illegitimate child of the late Nation of Islam leader Malcolm X; she also continues to argue that Obama is a secret Muslim.

A less well-known but key backer of Wilders’s trip has been the newly-formed International Free Press Society (IFPS), which is headed by Danish journalist Lars Hedegaard and upon whose advisory board Wilders sits. The IFPS has been instrumental in promoting Wilders’ case as a free-speech issue, joining him in calling for an "International First Amendment", and it was a co-sponsor of Friday’s event at the National Press Club.

Wilders might seem to be an unlikely free-speech martyr - he famously called for the Netherlands to ban the Koran in an August 2007 op-ed, on the grounds that it was hate speech no different from Adolf Hitler’s ‘Mein Kampf.’ Wilders and his defenders now claim that he is actually in favour of the repeal of all hate speech laws, although he made no mention of this issue in the original op-ed
....
Thursday’s event at the Senate was an important step for Wilders, and may have helped legitimise him in the eyes of U.S. conservatives. Sen. Kyl, who hosted the event, shares with Wilders a hard-line stance on immigration issues; he is also an honorary co-chairman of the neoconservative organisation Committee on the Present Danger.

LeeG
04-06-2009, 06:58 AM
Ok, enough of this nonsense. Lars Hedegaard who is a journalist and historian in Denmark. .




historian as in a writer, student or expert in history?

Tinman
04-06-2009, 09:44 AM
What makes me crazy about this, is that many of those of you who are trashing Lars, or "questioning" my intentions here, would gobble up without a second thought any and everything if he where a left wing journalist talking about the evils if Isreal or the US. You continually make excuses and apologise for those who either attack us outright, or use our laws and courts against us. Did it ever cross any of your foggy minds that maybe just maybe all the events over the last decade or so in Europe and around the world are at least on some level, related? We are slowly losing the fight against those who would radically change everything about our way of life, just as thye have done in every country they now control, and you people cannot or will not even admit it is happening, let alone do anything about it. As I told Lee, I am not interested in wether or not you like me. That is besides the point. You can either despise the messenger, or you can deal with the message. Continue to bash and trash as you will, but the truth remains. Democracy as we knnow it, is under attack, and the sooner you recognize that fact, the better.

Tom Montgomery
04-06-2009, 10:10 AM
Birds of a feather.... No surprises here.

LeeG
04-06-2009, 10:12 AM
So, Tinman,,did your radio program mention Wilders film?

Tinman
04-06-2009, 10:24 AM
If you are referring to the interview on Sunday, the answer is no. We did discuss Geert's upcoming visit to Denmark wichg will be the second time the poll leading Dutch politician will be in that country.

B_B
04-06-2009, 08:44 PM
What makes me crazy about this, is that many of those of you who are trashing Lars, or "questioning" my intentions here, would gobble up without a second thought any and everything if he where a left wing journalist talking about the evils if Isreal or the US. .
Ahh, yes, if we cannot defend our "ideas" lash out with the old anti-Zionist shtick. Good One! Very good. Any other 'brain waves'? Are we all "Hitlers" now too?


You continually make excuses and apologise for those who either attack us outright, .
The point I was trying to make, since my first post, is that Turkey IS YOUR ALLY!

Get that through your narrow minded, navel gazing, head. That is why they ARE PART OF NATO! THEY ARE YOUR ALLY!


Did it ever cross any of your foggy minds that maybe just maybe all the events over the last decade or so in Europe and around the world are at least on some level, related? .
YES! That's why we need Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan and other 'less hostile to us' Islamic nations ON OUR SIDE!

You don't keep them on your side by calling them names and disregarding some very serious issues that they may have - e.g. having Denmark try to block their entry into the EU, and having Denmark host a radio station which promotes a separtist agenda (which either condones, or directly supports, terrorism against YOUR ALLY, Turkey).


We are slowly losing the fight against those who would radically change everything about our way of life, just as thye have done in every country they now control, .
Not all Muslims think alike, for the love of Pete.

May I please introduce you, at a most basic level, to the schism between the Sunni's and Shi'ites? You may have heard, in Iraq (most publicly), they don't really get along?


and you people cannot or will not even admit it is happening, .
Oh, no, we admit it, we say it all the time. What we don't do is lump everyone who is brown and Islamic, into the same "looks like AlQuaida to me" bin that YOU do.


You can either despise the messenger, or you can deal with the message..
hmm, kinda like how you've treated SeanZ, LeeG and myself? Carry on then.


Continue to bash and trash as you will, but the truth remains. .
ibid.


Democracy as we knnow it, is under attack, and the sooner you recognize that fact, the better.
Democracy in Turkey is under attack, internally by radical Islamists and externally by idiots like yourself. The sooner you recognize the fact that Turkey can be your friend, has been your country's friend, has been a friend to your largest trading and military partner for over 50 years, and that this relationship is in jeopardy because of ninnys like yourself, the Danes, and SHarper, the sooner people with brains can come in and salvage something.

Tinman
04-06-2009, 08:57 PM
It never ends with you does it? I have never said, nor do I believe that all muslims are terrorists, or that everyone that follows Islam is one. I HAVE said that those who follow Sharia law, are a threat, and I continue to insist on that point. I would love to see examples of posts you have made that indicate a recognition of the threat to democracy that islamic radical fundamentalists pose. Democracy in Turkey may very well be under attack, if there is any real democracy there in the first place. I am worried about OUR democracy and the threat that WE face, every day from the same kind of thugs who would blow up a mosque filled with fellow muslims as quickly as they would kill you or I. The truth is that muslims have as much if not more to fear from these murdering brutes as anyone does. Why do you think so many come here? To get away from the very scenario now playing out in Pakistan, that is why. And we are going to let ourselves be brow beaten, cowed and coerced by acts of violence and intimidation, making their fight to safety a vain grab at escape? Maybe on your watch, but not on mine.

Tinman
04-06-2009, 09:23 PM
And I pointed out that a journalist who actually comes from Denmark, knows the situation intimately, has a much better perspective that either of us do, basically tells you that your point of view and assements are a load of crap. So now who am I supposed to believe? The likes of Stratfor and this journalist? or you?... Hmm lemme think.. Times up, you lose.

Here is a link to the interview I mentioned. I'm sure you will have fun trashing it, but that won't change anything, Lars is still right.

http://www.internationalfreepresssociety.org/2009/04/audio-interview-with-lars-hedegaard-cfra-radio-ottawa-april-5-2009/

Mrleft8
04-06-2009, 09:42 PM
I prefer a turkey sandwich for lunch....But for breakfast I'll take a danish thankyou.....With a side of bacon, and an english muffin with butter and raspberry jam..... and maybe a small orange juice... and tea....Just honey, no lemon today thanks....

LeeG
04-06-2009, 09:45 PM
Lars knows about them people in Turkey. He's a historian,,them muslims don't like cartoons,,that's why they didn't let the 4th infantry through.

Osborne Russell
04-06-2009, 10:30 PM
Did it ever cross any of your foggy minds that maybe just maybe all the events over the last decade or so in Europe and around the world are at least on some level, related?

yAH, mIDDLE eASTERN mONOTHEISM

Osborne Russell
04-06-2009, 10:33 PM
My comment: this is what happens when society gives superstitions protected status.

Is NATO also a Christian Nation?

Flying Orca
04-06-2009, 11:31 PM
'Tisn't a nation of any kind, last time I checked. I was more referring to the knots that seem to spontaneously appear whenever people confuse their religion and their politics.

B_B
04-07-2009, 01:53 AM
And I pointed out that a journalist who actually comes from Denmark, knows the situation intimately,

uhh, genius, he knows the the "situation" as he, and you, would like it portrayed.

Funny that you haven't had the intellectual stamina to deal with the issues as presented?

Didn't think so.

B_B
04-07-2009, 01:58 AM
And I pointed out that a journalist who actually comes from Denmark, knows the situation intimately, has a much better perspective that either of us do, basically tells you that your point of view and assements are a load of crap. So now who am I supposed to believe? The likes of Stratfor and this journalist? or you?... Hmm lemme think.. Times up, you lose.

Here is a link to the interview I mentioned. I'm sure you will have fun trashing it, but that won't change anything, Lars is still right.

http://www.internationalfreepresssociety.org/2009/04/audio-interview-with-lars-hedegaard-cfra-radio-ottawa-april-5-2009/
I just thought I'd quote this for posterity.

Tinman is a complete ninny.

Tinman
04-07-2009, 08:27 AM
Didn't take long for my prediction of trashing to come true, did it. Even if I am a ninny, that dosn't change the facts. Lars is right.

Tom Montgomery
04-07-2009, 08:37 AM
Perhaps you should remove that "Kick Me" sign from your rear end.

You post trolling right-wingnut threads in the WBF Bilge and then whine that the libs are picking on you... what a bore.

LeeG
04-07-2009, 08:40 AM
such a burden to know the truth

Tinman
04-07-2009, 09:47 AM
While you live in your cut and paste google world here in cyberspace, the rest of the world burns around you. IF you ever decide to step back and look at the whole picture, perhaps then you will be able to grasp what I am trying to tell you. Untill then though, enjoy your simple pleasure of kicking the messenger. He is more persistent than you are childish.

LeeG
04-07-2009, 09:58 AM
Tinman,
You must be losing your home audience to be proselityzing outside the choir.

The irony here is that you reveal your ignorance with every insistance that you have access to real expertise.

Tinman
04-07-2009, 11:26 AM
What is the point of preaching to the converted?
Rather than exposing my ignorance on the topic, what it really does, is demonstrate your unwillingness to accept first hand information from someone on the ground "in the fight" so to speak, because it flies in the face of your studies, and It couldn't possibly be that way" mindset. So while I have never held myself up as any expert on any topic, It would seem that I have a little better handle on this situation than you do. But it dosn't have to stay that way.

B_B
04-07-2009, 11:31 AM
While you live in your cut and paste google world here in cyberspace, the rest of the world burns around you. .
What a wonderful little melodrama you must live in. "The sky is falling, the sky is falling".


... IF you ever decide to step back and look at the whole picture ...
It is you who are focused on a single issue, it is you that doesn't want to take a step back and look at the issue in a broader context - i.e. the "whole" picture.

To recap - you said that Turkey opposed the Dane because of the cartoons. SeanZ and LeeG both supplied very valid reasons which Turkey says influenced their opposition. They've broadened my understanding and should have been able to do so for you.

It's beyond belief that you really think you are the one with the 'whole' picture, the broader understanding.

I have a headache.

Tinman
04-07-2009, 12:01 PM
So let me get this straight. I post an artical that says that Turkey objects to denmarks PM as the new head of NATO because of hs support of the publication of cartoons that led to riots all over Europe. You post links cntradicting both the artical and my assertions, and we argue back and forth over dates. Then I post a link to the inerview with Lars, where he tells you your reports, and google searches are full of crap, and that the original assertion in the artical and supported by similar findings by Stratfor have been correct all along. As of yesterday, the new head of NATO was in Turkey apologizing for the cartoons and bending over backwards to appease islamic sensiblilites wish is ludicrous if the cartoons where not a factor. And you think my universe is devoid of facts?

B_B
04-07-2009, 12:43 PM
So let me get this straight. I post an artical that says that Turkey objects to denmarks PM as the new head of NATO because of hs support of the publication of cartoons that led to riots all over Europe. You post links cntradicting both the artical and my assertions, and we argue back and forth over dates. Then I post a link to the inerview with Lars, where he tells you your reports, and google searches are full of crap, and that the original assertion in the artical and supported by similar findings by Stratfor have been correct all along. As of yesterday, the new head of NATO was in Turkey apologizing for the cartoons and bending over backwards to appease islamic sensiblilites wish is ludicrous if the cartoons where not a factor. And you think my universe is devoid of facts?
Yep.

But enough of that. The new head of NATO didn't go to Turkey and apoligize for the cartoons because he wanted to "appease [I]slamic sensibilities". He did it because WE need Turkey's help in fighting Islamic fascists. It's politics. Appease the masses (by apologizing for the cartoons) so the governments can do what's necessary - in this case, fighting Islamoterrorism.

The west tried fighting Islamoterrorism your way for ~8 years - where did that get us? Let's try a sensible way, taking real issues into consideration, dealing with real issues of import to the Turkish Government, real issues like EU membership and a radio station spouting off a pro-terror/anti-Turkey message in Denmark.


Meanwhile:
You slag the internet, cyberspace, and google searches, while posting in cyberspace and linking to blogs and obscure radio hosts on the internet?

LeeG
04-07-2009, 01:11 PM
Tinman, I don't think you are devoid of facts, you are weak on reasoning and chose a select body of facts. Lars does not appear to have any expertise regarding Turkey but has a dedicated focus about the threat of Islam in the northern countries and is associated with more than a few racist folks. That explains NOTHING about Turkey and a lot about Lars.

Regarding your acknowledgment that you are on an evangelical mission to gather converts you sound like the guy who confuses a womans denial as validation of his passion. That you keep getting slapped down doesn't mean you should keep coming back for more. It means you should stop. That focus probably drives you well where you hold the microphone but you don't here.

Tom Montgomery
04-07-2009, 01:28 PM
While you live in your cut and paste google world here in cyberspace, the rest of the world burns around you.

And this right-wingnut denies that he and his fellow-travelers are fear-mongers. What a joke. :rolleyes:

Tinman
04-07-2009, 01:34 PM
To say I disagree with your assesment is to put it mildly. I would couonter by saying that Lars has a far better understanding of the situation than we do even if only by his connectedness to it. This isn't about some anti religous tirade, this is about identifying a clear and present danger, with no regard to what corner it comes from. I would be ringing the same alarm bell if the threat was coming from some religious or nationalistic group centered in Iceland. The fact remains though, that it is radical islamic extremists who are threatening our way of life. And that is why I am so adamanet about this topic.

Keith Wilson
04-07-2009, 02:13 PM
. . it is radical Islamic extremists who are threatening our way of life.Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that radical Islamic extremists don't like our way of life, and would threaten it if they could. Saying that "the rest of the world is burning around us" is a grotesque exaggeration; right now we in the west have far, far greater problems of our own devising than Islamic extremists.

TomF
04-07-2009, 02:19 PM
with the greatest of respect, radical islamists don't pose near the threat to our way of life that we do ourselves.

Despite their best efforts, islamists have not been able to cause anything like the mayhem wreaked by our economic crisis, or indeed by our hamfisted response to the islamists' actual attack. Combine this with our self-created environmental messes ...

Al Quaeda, however horrible their attacks, are pikers.

Tinman
04-07-2009, 05:58 PM
Gemtlemen, while I agree that out present economic crisis is indeed a serious problem, I am also confident that we will overcome it. Maybe not this year, perhaps even the next, but given the past situatons that have been worse, the 22% interest rates of the '80's for example, it is by no means insurmountable. The threat that I am insisting is real, large and growng, is for very high stakes indeed and I am not so certainof the outcome. Some of my detractors on this thread seem to think me a nut case, and I am ok with that. I don't care one way or the other about opinions people have of me, based on a few sentences posted on a website. They tell me on one hand I decry the use of the internet, and then turn around and use it asif I don't want anyone to ever use it. This is of course nonsense. The point being made, is that like any other tool, it must be used carefully and with good judgement. Not as a decision making device in and of itself wich I am afraid, is far too often the case. The cry "where is the link?" or "What is your proof"? ring out across cyberspace as if there is no higher standard to which the truthfulness of something can be held.

According to google, there have been ten thousand terrorist attacks since 9/11, claiming 60,000 lives and 90,000 wounded.

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/3254

The total American death toll from Vietnam was less than that.
Undoubtedly, those who refuse to admit we are in trouble on this front will find a problem with this link too, but I am beyond caring about that now. What I am attempting to do, is not to fear monger, but to awaken. Would it be fearmongering to bang on your neighbours door and tell him as loudly and as forcefully as you can that his house is on fire? The answer is of course obvious, but for some reason, no one wants to answer to that knock. For the life of me, I don't know why.

mmd
04-07-2009, 06:00 PM
I'll believe in Islamist world-domination conspiracy theories when Tinman believes that global warming is being exacerbated by mankind's CO2 emissions...

Tinman
04-07-2009, 06:03 PM
Genlemen, while I agree that out present economic crisis is indeed a serious problem, I am also confident that we will overcome it. Maybe not this year, perhaps not even the next, but given past situatons that have been worse, the 22% interest rates of the '80's for example, it is by no means insurmountable. The threat that I am insisting is real, large and growng, is for very high stakes indeed and I am not so certainof the outcome. Some of my detractors on this thread seem to think me a nut case, and I am ok with that. I don't care one way or the other about opinions people have of me, based on a few sentences posted on a website. They tell me on one hand I decry the use of the internet, and then turn around and use it as if I don't want anyone to ever use it. This is of course nonsense. The point being made, is that like any other tool, it must be used carefully and with good judgement. Not as a decision making device in and of itself which I am afraid, is far too often the case. The cry "where is the link?" or "What is your proof"? ring out across cyberspace as if there is no higher standard to which the truthfulness of something can be held.

According to google, there have been ten thousand terrorist attacks since 9/11, claiming 60,000 lives and 90,000 wounded.

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/3254

The total American death toll from Vietnam was less than that.
Undoubtedly, those who refuse to admit we are in trouble on this front will find a problem with this link too, but I am beyond caring about that now. What I am attempting to do, is not to fear monger, but to awaken. Would it be fearmongering to bang on your neighbours door and tell him as loudly and as forcefully as you can that his house is on fire? The answer is of course obvious, but for some reason, no one wants to answer that knock. For the life of me, I don't know why not.

Tom Montgomery
04-07-2009, 07:11 PM
"According to google." Good one, tinny!

TomF
04-07-2009, 07:22 PM
Tinman,

I agree that those figures - if true - are shockingly high. They pale beside the shockingly high estimates of civilian deaths in Iraq alone, caused by a fight against islamism.

I'm inclined both to resist islamism, but also to demonstrate just how Western values, culture, and political/economic models lead to a better life. Frankly, we've done a piss-poor job, at best giving double messages about "liberty," "human rights," and "self-determination."

While by no means is this ALL of it, we in the West need to recognize that in part, Islamism grew from the shadow of our political/economic domination.

Keith Wilson
04-07-2009, 07:26 PM
Tinman, the vast majority of those deaths were part of ongoing civil wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. While Islamic extremists are indeed a problem, they are neither a growing problem, nor a significant threat to western civilization. Terrorism, while despicable, is the weapon of the impotent, chosen because they are completely incapable of challenging the military of any western country, much less the US. The Middle Eastern countries have been getting relatively weaker compared to the western powers for the last 500 years; their high point was the first siege of Vienna in 1529 (if not the battle of Tours in 732), and things have been downhill for them ever since. They are getting demonstrably weaker economically, militarily, and in cultural influence since the 1500s. The idea that a few ragged fanatic suicide bombers are a significant threat to us is absurd. Yes, they can kill civilians and cause trouble, but they are no kind of existential threat, and they are being hunted down over most of the planet..

Pakistan's nuclear weapons are another matter, and letting them fall into terrorist hands is obviously not acceptable.


The cry "where is the link?" or "What is your proof"? ring out across cyberspace as if there is no higher standard to which the truthfulness of something can be held. When you make an assertion, you must to be able to back it up with evidence when challenged. Without supporting evidence, it's just hot air. It doesn't have to be an internet link, but it's a lot easier for those reading to check it themselves if it is.

Tom Montgomery
04-07-2009, 07:30 PM
I was taught by the Stern gang, the Irgun and Menachem Begin that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It all depends upon whose ox is being gored.

B_B
04-08-2009, 10:48 AM
...Middle Eastern countries have been getting relatively weaker compared to the western powers for the last 500 years; ....
but let's not confuse national powers and terrorist organizations and Islamic fundamentalists - they are not the same and only work together sporadically for short term engagements when they share objectives.

In the middle east you will find that most Islamic fundamentalists are more of a threat to the countries there than to anything or anyone in the west - just a quick look at Pakistan and the Swat valley, for instance, or Egypt, never mind Lebanon or Iraq or Israel ...

What we find is that religious fundamentalists, specifically, in this case, in the Middle East, are more of a threat to our values than they are to our physical existence. And by ignoring our core values, as 'Western Civilization' we help them in their struggle.

By lumping all 'Muslim' countries together we do ourselves the disservice of not being honest to ourselves but we also threaten the existence, how ever thin, however fleeting, of our core western values of Freedoms of Thought, of Expression, Politics, of and from Religion, in those places where they do now tenuously exist.

Keith Wilson
04-08-2009, 11:09 AM
but let's not confuse national powers and terrorist organizations and Islamic fundamentalists - they are not the same and only work together sporadically for short term engagements when they share objectives.Certainly. The terrorists are even weaker than the countries. That's precisely why they're terrorists; they have no ability to do anything worse. Claiming that they pose a threat to Western Civilization is absurd.

Tinman
04-10-2009, 02:03 AM
Keith. I thought I would post the video of the Danish PM talking about the cartoons and how he is going to run NATO in thier aftermath. Interesting viewing to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0SGQWReUXE&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvladtepesblog%2Ecom%2F&feature=player_embedded

Tinman
04-10-2009, 02:05 AM
Here is a video about what is being taught in a muslim acadamy in London. 600 students, and it is only one of hundreds of schools

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DEmuldr_2c&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvladtepesblog%2Ecom%2F%3Fpaged%3 D2&feature=player_embedded

This next one is very hard to watch, but it dosn't take place in Jordan, or Iran. And it is not an Isolated incident. read waht happens to teh cop who posts it and ask yourself why would that be the result if there was no "threat'?

http://vladtepesblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/french-subway-screen-cap.jpg

I can keep posting these if you like, or perhaps you get the drift already.