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View Full Version : Its happening again... Gunman takes hostages in NY state



Peerie Maa
04-03-2009, 12:05 PM
Up to 40 people have been taken hostage and several others shot in the US state of New York, say reports.
Local media reported that the people were in the buildings of the American Civic Association (ACA) in the Binghamton, north of New York City.
Mayor Matthew Ryan told reporters the man had a high-powered rifle and was still believed to be in the building.
One report said four people had been carried from the scene on stretchers. Their condition was not known.
The Binghamton Press & Sun Bulletin said homes nearby were being evacuated and a police commando unit was at the scene.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif RECENT US SHOOTINGS
March 2009: A gunman kills a total of 11 people in a series of shootings southern Alabama
Dec 2008: A gunman dressed as Santa Claus kills nine people and himself on Christmas Eve in LA
Sept 2008: Six people die in a series of shootings in the north-west of Washington state
June 2008: A worker at a plastics plant in Kentucky kills five people before killing himself
Apr 2007: 32 people and the gunman die at the Virginia Tech campus

It said apartments and a nearby school and care home were under lockdown.
A spokeswoman at a local hospital said at least one person was being treated for unspecified injuries.
"We're on full alert anticipating we're going to get additional casualties," Linda Miller said.
Reports said people had been hiding in the basement of the building and inside a storage room.
The ACA says on its website that it assists immigrants and refugees with personal and immigration counselling.From:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7982313.stm


Let us hope that this is resolved without further loss of life.

TomF
04-03-2009, 12:10 PM
I was watching the reporting on that on CNN for a bit. Last I heard, at least four dead, perhaps more.

As usual, a dreadful thing - and my prayers and condolences to all affected. I'll try to keep my other usual comments to myself.

t

CK 17
04-03-2009, 12:24 PM
citizenship classes and testing going on in that building. . . .

Phillip Allen
04-03-2009, 01:37 PM
someone mentioned the other day that this sort of thing happend at the beginning on the last admin too...personally, I don't know, nor why that would be so

pila
04-03-2009, 01:43 PM
I'm inclined to think that this sort of thing has been going on for ages, but with the news media being on top of every incident these days, it seems like there is no end to it.:(

Paul Pless
04-03-2009, 02:02 PM
13 dead now

Hwyl
04-03-2009, 02:11 PM
Poor souls were probably learning their second amendment rights

Hwyl
04-04-2009, 05:47 AM
Seems more and more senseless as the news comes in

The Bigfella
04-04-2009, 05:49 AM
14 dead.

Every 41st American male dies with a bullet in them.

norseman
04-04-2009, 06:07 AM
Taliban? History repeats itself;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caf%C3%A9_wars

Pugwash
04-04-2009, 06:36 AM
No, no, NO!

Wrong, Nick.

All murder, death, kill threads should be titled "Little old lady uses gun to fend off gang of deranged Crack-Heads".

Did you not get the memo about how, in a democracy, the freedom to own a huge arsenal of weapons is the only defence against Obamas Socialist agenda?

Repeat after me "Guns don't kill people".

Why do you damn Libruls always focus on the bad news stories and not the warm and fuzzy ones????

:rolleyes:

Peerie Maa
04-04-2009, 07:45 AM
No, no, NO!

Wrong, Nick.

All murder, death, kill threads should be titled "Little old lady uses gun to fend off gang of deranged Crack-Heads".

Did you not get the memo about how, in a democracy, the freedom to own a huge arsenal of weapons is the only defence against Obamas Socialist agenda?

Repeat after me "Guns don't kill people".

Why do you damn Libruls always focus on the bad news stories and not the warm and fuzzy ones????

:rolleyes:

OK, Guns don't kill people,



























people who own guns kill people.

Pugwash
04-04-2009, 07:54 AM
Apparently, even as we speak, they're doing it in Pittsburgh.

The chap on CNN just used the phrase "hail of bullets".


You hate us for our freedom, dontcha???

:rolleyes:

Peerie Maa
04-04-2009, 07:57 AM
Apparently, even as we speak, they're doing it in Pittsburgh.

The chap on CNN just used the phrase "hail of bullets".


You hate us for our freedom, dontcha???

:rolleyes:

No, I am profoundly saddened by your "freedom".

Pugwash
04-04-2009, 08:13 AM
Personally I think the "freedom" to own a weapon should only be upheld in the presence of people on jetskis.

(I knew someone that tried to get to St. Kilda on a jetski. I think any court in the world would concider it to be justifiable homicide)

:)

Peerie Maa
04-04-2009, 08:21 AM
Personally I think the "freedom" to own a weapon should only be upheld in the presence of people on jetskis.

(I knew someone that tried to get to St. Kilda on a jetski. I think any court in the world would concider it to be justifiable homicide)

:)

A waterlogged baulk of timber with 1" gnarly bolts placed in the correct location is probably better all round.

ahp
04-04-2009, 08:24 AM
There seems to be losers that measure manhood by firepower. I know a few. For them, being without a gun is like being castrated. Pitiful.

Phillip Allen
04-04-2009, 09:28 AM
Apparently, even as we speak, they're doing it in Pittsburgh.

The chap on CNN just used the phrase "hail of bullets".


You hate us for our freedom, dontcha???

:rolleyes:

doncha just love journalists? last night I watched an animal show on discovery...refered to allagators as having a mouth-full of "razor" sharp teeth...razor sharp??? and you guys just jump right into that stuff doncha..."hail of bullets" foresooth!

drink up guys...it's only koolaid

Pugwash
04-04-2009, 10:14 AM
drink up guys...it's only koolaid

Maybe we should just pick one thread to duke it out on (again :rolleyes:).

Phillip Allen
04-04-2009, 10:19 AM
Maybe we should just pick one thread to duke it out on (again :rolleyes:).

actually, Pug, I'm not trying to duke it out at all...just a caution against trusting journalism...razor sharp teeth!...hail of bullets

Hwyl
04-04-2009, 10:25 AM
actually, Pug, I'm not trying to duke it out at all...just a caution against trusting journalism...razor sharp teeth!...hail of bullets

Phillip you are devaluing the lives and deaths of these poor innocent people.

Do you actually not believe every news source that some idiot with a gun killed 13 people in Binghampton. Or are you going to claim they would have all drowned in swimming pools anyway.

JimD
04-04-2009, 10:29 AM
... Or are you going to claim they would have all drowned in swimming pools anyway.

There's really no difference between a swimming pool and a gun anyway because both can cause fatalities.

Paul Girouard
04-04-2009, 10:35 AM
There's really no difference between a swimming pool and a gun anyway because both can cause fatalities.



Well there ya go! While we're at it lets out law motor vehicles , boats , jet ski's , how about construction staging , mines , aircraft of all types they've been known to take out large groups indiscriminatly !
Make-um all illegal that will stop the process , right?

Phillip Allen
04-04-2009, 10:39 AM
Well there ya go! While we're at it lets out law motor vehicles , boats , jet ski's , how about construction staging , mines , aircraft of all types they've been known to take out large groups indiscriminatly !
Make-um all illegal that will stop the process , right?


I've already tried to make that point Paul...and it worked! they are perfectly willing to give up Phillip's and Paul's rights but NOT their own...Take away someone else's guns but they won't give up their right to cars boats and swimming pools

one will be along directly to explain why that particular selfishness should be considered DIFFERENT and how it DOESN'T COUNT!

Hwyl
04-04-2009, 10:43 AM
I've already tried to make that point Paul...and it worked! they are perfectly willing to give up Phillip's and Paul's rights but NOT their own...Take away someone else's guns but they won't give up their right to cars boats and swimming pools

one will be along directly to explain why that particular selfishness should be considered DIFFERENT and how it DOESN'T COUNT!

Phillip, I think Paul may be ridiculing you.

Edited to add: Which you richly deserve

Peerie Maa
04-04-2009, 10:44 AM
I've already tried to make that point Paul...and it worked! they are perfectly willing to give up Phillip's and Paul's rights but NOT their own...Take away someone else's guns but they won't give up their right to cars boats and swimming pools

one will be along directly to explain why that particular selfishness should be considered DIFFERENT and how it DOESN'T COUNT!

Because many of us do not understand how owning a device whose only purpose is to kill adds value to anyone's life, to such an extent that you suggest that their quality of life is lessened by not having a gun.

Phillip Allen
04-04-2009, 01:14 PM
Phillip, I think Paul may be ridiculing you.

Edited to add: Which you richly deserve

is that your "doesn't count" retort?

Phillip Allen
04-04-2009, 01:16 PM
Because many of us do not understand how owning a device whose only purpose is to kill adds value to anyone's life, to such an extent that you suggest that their quality of life is lessened by not having a gun.

my response to your reasoning that designed to kill is limiting to such extreames:
GPS is intended to kill...that is what it is designed to do...if you may use that excuse to insist that guns (in general) are intended to kill then you must, in good conscience, also include GPS as a killing divice (it is literaly a gun-sight). It follows that a divce designed to kill conveiging that responsibility to it's possessor (your reference to guns being designed to kill only, by design) that all such "designed to kill" devices must be treated the same and therefore demanding my guilt of killing (by association) I must also insist that possessors of GPS units, by your reasoning, conveigh the guilt of killing to their users

Peerie Maa
04-04-2009, 01:29 PM
my response to your reasoning that designed to kill is limiting to such extreames:
GPS is intended to kill...that is what it is designed to do...if you may use that excuse to insist that guns (in general) are intended to kill then you must, in good conscience, also include GPS as a killing divice (it is literaly a gun-sight). It follows that a divce designed to kill conveiging that responsibility to it's possessor (your reference to guns being designed to kill only, by design) that all such "designed to kill" devices must be treated the same and therefore demanding my guilt of killing (by association) I must also insist that possessors of GPS units, by your reasoning, conveigh the guilt of killing to their users

No, totally irrelevant.
The point under debate is private ownership. The use of GPS as an aiming device is limited to government use. No one is arguing that governments should not own and control weapons. I am not even arguing that game keepers and other countryside workers should not own and use weapons for the purpose of vermin control and culling herds to maintain the health of the herd, etc.
The issue under debate is the need for private citizens to have control of devices designed with no other use than to kill, without it being a tool necessary for their working life, or judged by and controlled by responsible authority to be needed for some other legitimate activity. Holding guns for no other reason than "it is my right to do so" is not a good enough reason.

Phillip Allen
04-04-2009, 01:35 PM
No, totally irrelevant.
The point under debate is private ownership. The use of GPS as an aiming device is limited to government use. No one is arguing that governments should not own and control weapons. I am not even arguing that game keepers and other countryside workers should not own and use weapons for the purpose of vermin control and culling herds to maintain the health of the herd, etc.
The issue under debate is the need for private citizens to have control of devices designed with no other use than to kill, without it being a tool necessary for their working life, or judged by and controlled by responsible authority to be needed for some other legitimate activity. Holding guns for no other reason than "it is my right to do so" is not a good enough reason.


care to poll this forum to see how many hold dangerous GPS units...?

Cedric Rhyn
04-04-2009, 01:39 PM
Looking at it from the outside, these mass shootings by non crime associated civilians are pretty much an American phenomenae. While they do happen elsewhere in the world they are very rare but in the good old USA they are happening several times a year and taking an increasing toll of innocent lives.
I often wonder what it is about the countries culture that allows this to happen?

Cedric Rhyn


From:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7982313.stm


Let us hope that this is resolved without further loss of life.

Peerie Maa
04-04-2009, 01:40 PM
care to poll this forum to see how many hold dangerous GPS units...?

OK,
If you can devise a description of a use that a privately owned GPS can be deliberately put with the intent of killing.

Flying Orca
04-04-2009, 01:45 PM
I often wonder what it is about the countries culture that allows this to happen?

It portrays sex as bad and violence as good? :rolleyes:

Phillip Allen
04-04-2009, 01:46 PM
OK,
If you can devise a description of a use that a privately owned GPS can be deliberately put with the intent of killing.

it certainly can...why do you think the area of our government's capital is a no-fly area?

Flying Orca
04-04-2009, 01:47 PM
Uh... because some dip****s flew some airplanes into some big buildings, which they probably managed to identify without recourse to GPS?

Peerie Maa
04-04-2009, 01:49 PM
it certainly can...why do you think the area of our government's capital is a no-fly area?

Perhaps they are frightened of people who can read a map?

Like I said before, show some respect.

bamamick
04-04-2009, 01:58 PM
I am so sorry. So sorry and so confused over how someone could do this. God bless those people who had their dreams snatched away from them and grant their families the strength to deal with the loss. I just don't know what to say about this stuff any more.

Mickey Lake

pcford
04-04-2009, 02:10 PM
GPS is intended to kill...that is what it is designed to do...if you may use that excuse to insist that guns (in general) are intended to kill

bang bang. shoot shoot.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
04-04-2009, 03:33 PM
Looking at it from the outside, these mass shootings by non crime associated civilians are pretty much an American phenomenae. While they do happen elsewhere in the world they are very rare but in the good old USA they are happening several times a year and taking an increasing toll of innocent lives.
I often wonder what it is about the countries culture that allows this to happen?

Cedric Rhyn

Yep, absolutely true, and it's a democracy. If America wanted to change it's attitude towards guns, it would.

Joe (SoCal)
04-04-2009, 04:34 PM
Because many of us do not understand how owning a device whose only purpose is to kill adds value to anyone's life, to such an extent that you suggest that their quality of life is lessened by not having a gun.

Exactly, but as usual I can glimpse from quotes that ol Phillip "Aww Shucks " is somehow DEFENDING the rights of this gun nut by claiming that anyone can point a GPS at someone push a button and a hot lead files out and rips through flesh of the person the GPS is aimed at. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: What an absolute moron and one of the great reasons he's on my ignore list.

My heart goes out to the family's of those killed by another GUN NUT.

B_B
04-04-2009, 05:04 PM
I've already tried to make that point Paul...and it worked! they are perfectly willing to give up Phillip's and Paul's rights but NOT their own...Take away someone else's guns but they won't give up their right to cars boats and swimming pools

one will be along directly to explain why that particular selfishness should be considered DIFFERENT and how it DOESN'T COUNT!
HEY! - Last time I had this discussion with you, you begged me to stop.

You said you weren't up to the fight - you were 'distracted' or some such - you ready for it now or are you going to beg off again?

B_B
04-04-2009, 05:07 PM
There's really no difference between a swimming pool and a gun anyway because both can cause fatalities.
I always carry my pool concealed b.t.w. just a little bump, no-one hardly notices

Phillip Allen
04-04-2009, 09:36 PM
HEY! - Last time I had this discussion with you, you begged me to stop.

You said you weren't up to the fight - you were 'distracted' or some such - you ready for it now or are you going to beg off again?

link showing me begging please...

Memphis Mike
04-04-2009, 09:55 PM
Ah..ll gives up mah gunz only win thay prized em from mah cold daid fangers!:mad:

How ya doin tonight, Phillip?

jack grebe
04-04-2009, 10:04 PM
This would never have happened
if this country had better gun
control laws.

Memphis Mike
04-04-2009, 10:13 PM
This would never have happened
if this country had better gun
control laws.

How do you know he obtained his guns legally? I saw no mention of that in the article I read on the incident.

You remember Elvis Presley Boulavard? I know a corner over there where I can buy anything from a twelve guage shotgun to a tech nine right off the street.

Until the police solve the problem of illegal weopons being sold on street corners, nothing can be done and the cops don't want to do that. You know why? Because the bad guys are weeding themselves out and that's straight from the mouth of a Memphis police officer that I know.

It's better to have them kill THEMSELVES off. The only problem is there's collateral damage. Just like any other war and there IS a war going on in every major city in this country.

jack grebe
04-04-2009, 10:19 PM
How do you know he obtained his guns legally? I saw no mention of that in the article I read on the incident.

You remember Elvis Presley Boulavard? I know a corner over there where I can buy anything from a twelve guage shotgun to a tech nine right off the street.

Until the police solve the problem of illegal weopons being sold on street corners, nothing can be done and the cops don't want to do that. You know why? Because the bad guys are weeding themselves out and that's straight from the mouth of a Memphis police officer that I know.

It's better to have them kill THEMSELVES off.Sounds pretty stupid Huh? As stupid as more gun control laws have on ever doing
anything to combat crime.

But the anti gun nutz will never see it for what it really is

B_B
04-04-2009, 10:20 PM
link showing me begging please...

Originally Posted by Phillip Allen
I am very distracted right now with home matters and may not come across as I mean to...Can we put this off for a while till I get past this bottle neck in my concentration?
Call it what you want - you were unable to anwer easy questions in another thread then asked me to 'put it off for a while'.\

Are you ready now?

They're easy.

Who do you want controlling firearms - no-one?
Then anyone, including crazies, could have them.
If not crazies, then who is going to enforce that, you? No.
The NRA? No.
Who?
Who decides Phillip?
Who decideds what the limits are?
So we are left with Government, no?
But you don't like Government controlling Firearms, primarily because they reflect the will of the majority and the majority LIKE gun control.

Start there Phillip, I'll be back with more.

mtelow
04-04-2009, 10:20 PM
Peerie Maa,
I believe you need a history lesson if you belive only the goverment should have weapons and not private citizens. Do you know any Jewish people you can talk to? I'm sure they could set you straight. I doubt that you will ever understand this, but ,it's not the love of guns, but the love of freedom that makes guns so important. But then again, your not an American so how can you understand?

jack grebe
04-04-2009, 10:25 PM
Peerie Maa,
I believe you need a history lesson if you belive only the goverment should have weapons and not private citizens. Do you know any Jewish people you can talk to? I'm sure they could set you straight. I doubt that you will ever understand this, but ,it's not the love of guns, but the love of freedom that makes guns so important. But then again, your not an American so how can you understand?
A rather strange first post........Are you sure you
don't want to ask a question about boats of something?

Memphis Mike
04-04-2009, 10:32 PM
Sounds pretty stupid Huh? As stupid as more gun control laws have on ever doing
anything to combat crime.

But the anti gun nutz will never see it for what it really is

No, they won't Jack. They focus on one mass killing and think they have all of the answers and don't know the half of what's really going on. There's at least one, if not two or three gun related murders in this city EVERYDAY! Where's the outrage? There isn't any outrage until someone of influence takes a bullet. Then and only then do they lock em up and throw away the key.

S B
04-04-2009, 10:39 PM
A rather strange first post........Are you sure you
don't want to ask a question about boats of something?
Pile of lumber shows up outside, God tells you how to put it together and what animals to bring on board. Nothing new to learn about wooden boats. Now if Noah had been instructed to shoot the bad people,instead of God drowning them.....;)

Memphis Mike
04-04-2009, 10:55 PM
mtelow , you say that non Americans don't know what "freedom" is , because they can't carry weapons with the express purpose of killing people.
Have you lived for any length of time , in a country with effective gun control ?.
Might I suggest , that that is when you will start to feel "free" , free from the gun culture madness.
I have spent 21 weeks in your country , and free , I certainly was not , its a scarey place.
Here in Australia , I can get any weapon I want , as long as I can justify its purchase.
Killing people is not an acceptable justification , and rightly so.
I hope one day you find "freedom" , but I'm sure its not going to be what you have imagined.
Regards Rob J.

Was Australia ever saturated with illegal guns and if so how was it brought under control? Did the crooks just turn theirs over or what?

The guns in this country that are being used to murder people and to commit crimes are not registered to anyone. They may have been at one time but most are stolen or aquired in some other way. How do you propose to get them off the street when the authorities don't give a ****. I'm really interested in your answer.

Just what is "effective gun control" in your opinion?

Cedric Rhyn
04-04-2009, 11:15 PM
Australia, New Zealand, Canada are all places where according to Govt statistics gun ownership is close to or as high as it is in the USA, but deaths and injuries from guns are way way less. I dont believe thats due to the number of guns, I believe that the difference is that in those countries gun ownership is not a right, its a privelege, one that has to be earned and which can be revoked if the conditions of the licence are breached.
There is a big difference in how guns are percieved.
All three of these countries have some illegal arms in the hands of criminals, but relatively few, cops are usually unarmed, and an attack with a firearm is very uncommon.

I was in the USA a while back and I was pulled over by a pair of cops for what they thought was odd behaviour ( night time, snowing, just off a 16 hour journey in an aircraft, a double laned roundabout and the very first time I'd driven on the right, I'd stopped 50 yards short of the intersection to look at a map and figure out my responses and rights of way). One cop stood with a gun on me while the other hauled me out of the car and shook me down then the two of them, gun still out, grilled me in the snow and sleet for a good ten minutes. I have travelled a LOT and even in Russia never got treated like that.!
Freedom? Read the constant bitching in this forum about government rules, coastguard rules, state and federal rules, petty beaurocrats, officialdom and form filling fee paying over regulated etc etc. Free? Hah! You guys believe your own probaganda.

Cedric Rhyn






Was Australia ever saturated with illegal guns and if so how was it brought under control? Did the crooks just turn theirs over or what?

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
04-04-2009, 11:19 PM
Was Australia ever saturated with illegal guns and if so how was it brought under control? Did the crooks just turn theirs over or what?

The guns in this country that are being used to murder people and to commit crimes are not registered to anyone. They may have been at one time but most are stolen or aquired in some other way. How do you propose to get them off the street when the authorities don't give a ****. I'm really interested in your answer.

Just what is "effective gun control" in your opinion?



It is getting crazy Reverend.
People have to stand up and be counted.
We need more Walt Kowalski's in the world.

Memphis Mike
04-04-2009, 11:23 PM
"Australia, New Zealand, Canada are all places where according to Govt statistics gun ownership is close to or as high as it is in the USA, "

Illegal guns are not documented. You don't even know the depth of the problem we have in this country so there is no possible way you could even begin to provide an answer.

BrianW
04-04-2009, 11:24 PM
One cop stood with a gun on me while the other hauled me out of the car and shook me down then the two of them, gun still out, grilled me in the snow and sleet for a good ten minutes. I have travelled a LOT and even in Russia never got treated like that.!


Sorry to hear about your bad cop experience.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
04-04-2009, 11:25 PM
Where were you when the cops treated you so badly Cedric?

George Jung
04-04-2009, 11:25 PM
Cedric, question - comparing the availability of guns elsewhere vs US, what, besides the 'earned right' is different? I've always thought our entertainment content (ever see how many shows center on violence here) might have an impact - but wonder how that content compares with other countries?

Memphis Mike
04-04-2009, 11:31 PM
Where were you when the cops treated you so badly Cedric?


Sounds like it might have been in Mississippi but it was snowin.:D It don't snow too much in Mississippi.

Memphis Mike
04-04-2009, 11:34 PM
"Well , here all weapons had to be registered .
Any weapons found on your person or property unregistered were then illegal , and you could/would be charged with an offence.
You need to be licenced to own a (registered) weapon , and you need to sit a gun safety course and an exam to obtain that licence."

Tell that to a bunch of crackheads who don't care if they live or die. They would murder you for one more hit off the crackpipe and do five years in jail, laughing the whole time. Get out and commit a couple of more murders.

2MeterTroll
04-04-2009, 11:52 PM
The thing i keep seeing is folks screaming about guns being in the US. most of the folks i know have been to a gun/hunters safety course most hand gun owners i know have the hand gun registered. most gun owners i know don't keep ammo in the same case as the gun. in fact several store the bolt in a locked drawer.

Each of these news stories that come out fail to mention if the shooter was the owner or if they had the gun registered. so gun owners get jumped on by those who see this as horrible and blame the "gun nuts". Not many "gun nuts" go on shooting sprees; however we all get to hear how F******** evil we are because we own a firearm. shooting a person is impersonal; I suspect thats behind most of the shootings. it divorces the shooter from the victim.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
04-04-2009, 11:59 PM
It's not the guns, it's an increase of crazy people.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
04-05-2009, 12:05 AM
Sounds like it might have been in Mississippi but it was snowin.:D It don't snow too much in Mississippi.



My guess would be New York.
It's got plenty of both.

The Bigfella
04-05-2009, 12:25 AM
Yes - Australia had a more entrenched "gun culture" than the US - but that was during and after the 1850's gold rush. A very high percentage of people were armed in those days.

The turning point in Australia was the Port Arthur massacre in 1996 - an isolated tourist spot where 35 people died at the hands of a scumbag with a semi-auto rifle.

A number of decisions were taken. The government said it would buy back unwanted weapons - and declared an amnesty for handing in illegal weapons. The government removed "personal protection" as a legitimate reason for owning a weapon - and pretty much everyone agreed with that. The government outlawed assault rifles and semi-autos of all kinds.

Legitimate reasons for owning firearms include collecting, hunting and target shooting. Hunters need to show they have somewhere to hunt (I have a permission letter to control vermin on a 100 acre property, for example. I also belong to a sporting shooters club).

There are some exceptions to the above (farmers can get semi-autos), some people in high risk situations can get concealed carry permits, etc.

A critical element of the Oz situation is safe gun storage. As Rob mentioned - gun safes - and separate locked ammo storage. Having a loaded weapon laying around is gaol (jail) bait.

The vast majority of US gun homicides do not involve drugs or gangs - they occur due to out of control emotions during arguments. Such people often have a history of violence. People with a conviction for violent behaviour (eg domestic assault) cannot get a gun licence here. And that's a damn good thing.

Cops here now know if firearms are present in a house during a call to a domestic situation. They also know that people in cars aren't likely to be carrying a loaded pistol. Sure there are exceptions - but they are very rare.

People who flaunt the gun laws know they have a high chance of getting caught too. We have cops patrolling in the city centres with dogs that sniff out guns and drugs. Highly effective. High penalties.

It isn't hard to do. You just have to care more about people than toys.

It isn't about freedom. Its about responsibility.

I own four rifles.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
04-05-2009, 12:46 AM
"It isn't hard to do."



Not if you live in a civilized country like you do Ian.
I'm afraid the USA is not a civilized country right now.

B_B
04-05-2009, 12:50 AM
Australia, New Zealand, Canada ... but relatively few, cops are usually unarmed, and an attack with a firearm is very uncommon.
AFAIK, all cops in Canada carry.
Gun crime is not uncommon (google "gun violence in Vancouver BC" for example) - but not as ubiquitous as south of the 49th.



comparing the availability of guns elsewhere vs US, what, besides the 'earned right' is different? I've always thought our entertainment content (ever see how many shows center on violence here) might have an impact - but wonder how that content compares with other countries?
your entertainment is our entertainment (except we get a few crappy local shows thrown in when no-one is watching)

I think its about perceived rights, about a frontier mentality, about a culture of entitlement, about the American Dream that's so hard to actualize.

Cedric Rhyn
04-05-2009, 04:38 AM
Just reading back through my post, I think I should apologise for being somewhat intemperate in my comments there. Sorry about that.

For the record, I am an ex serviceman who got shot at a fair few times in Malaya, The Combined Commonwealth Expeditionary Forces won the war and the communist insurgents never did come back in any significant numbers but I lost friends, got hit a couple of times and developed an intense dislike of having any kind of weapon even turned toward me. To have a couple of people pull me over for what I still think is a very poor reason and hold a gun on me while treating me very badly did not endear them to me at all, in fact my thoughts were along the lines of " If too many American cops are like this, its no wonder that they have to carry guns to protect themselves"

The incident took place at the big roundabout coming out of Portland Or airport, I'd never been there before and felt that rather than be a risk to myself and others though slow reactions and unfamiliarity with local rules and wrong side of the road for me, that stopping and checking it out would be less of a hazard.

I dont believe that I was in a no stopping area and still dont know what lit their fuses but lit they were. Pity, I have come to like the top left hand corner of your island but still feel twitchy when I see a patrol car.

On beaurocracy, New Zealand has no system of taxing a boat that you might build, you can buy and sell without any involvement of officialdom, boats up to pretty decent sized ships do not require inspections unless plying for hire, do not require any form of registration unless plying for hire, do not require a skippers ticket or operators licence (unless plying for hire) so you can pretty much do your thing without let, hindrance or fees.

We do have our problems, but they seem pretty small beer in comparison with what I read and have seen about other parts of the world.

Cedric Rhyn


Sounds like it might have been in Mississippi but it was snowin.:D It don't snow too much in Mississippi.

john welsford
04-05-2009, 04:59 AM
I think that Cedric has possibly hinted at the answer, or at least "an" answer here (Hi Ced, you ok? You owe me a letter , its been a while!) . I have visited the USA several times and on occasion discussed this very subject. I learned not to do that very quickly as the force of some of the opinions I came across made me pretty uncomfortable. I read posts on several websites, and arms control comes up regularly on some which reinforces what I found when discussing the issue "live" . I get the strong impression that some American "Right to bear arms" advocates see guns as neccessary, that intimates that guns are seen by these people as the solution to a problem, so when they have a problem that they cannot solve by other means, then using a gun might be the solution. This seems very solidly ingrained in a significant proportion of the population and I'm not venturing an opinion as to right or wrong other than to say for outsiders coming into the USA, particularly from Commonwealth countries this can be a scary thing to come across.
Apart from a very small proportion of the population this is a very uncommon view in other western nations where gun ownership is seen as a privelege not a right, and consequently people in those countries own guns for very different reasons, not as something to solve a problem with.

I'm a target shooter, .22 indoor 25m range and very occasionally the 1000 yard range outdoors, its a sport that I can do lying down which at 60 yrs old is a pretty attractive proposition.

I like my rifle, but have never used it outside the range, and cannot imagine the circumstances that would require me to.

JohnWelsford


Cedric, question - comparing the availability of guns elsewhere vs US, what, besides the 'earned right' is different? I've always thought our entertainment content (ever see how many shows center on violence here) might have an impact - but wonder how that content compares with other countries?

skuthorp
04-05-2009, 05:41 AM
Much as I regret to say it I think it's too late for a change in the US. Even if the majority voted for it there would be no practical way to carry out the law, and politically and geographically might split the country. You'll just have to live with the collateral damage that comes with such 'freedom'.

Peerie Maa
04-05-2009, 07:17 AM
Peerie Maa,
I believe you need a history lesson if you belive only the goverment should have weapons and not private citizens. Do you know any Jewish people you can talk to? I'm sure they could set you straight. I doubt that you will ever understand this, but ,it's not the love of guns, but the love of freedom that makes guns so important. But then again, your not an American so how can you understand?

I've been thinking about this post since I read it this morning, and have decided that I cannot let it pass. It demonstrates an unbelievable level of naivety.

Do you know any Jewish people you can talk to? I'm sure they could set you straight. I assume that you mean the outcome to the "Final Solution" would have been different if all Europeans owned handguns? You are correct but not in the way you mean. The solution would have been "final", not one Jewish person living in Nazi occupied Europe would have survived, all would have been killed. Why?


The Nazis would have had another, better reason for wiping out Jews.
No group of untrained armed civilians will ever win over a trained army with access to heavy weapons.

As has been said elsewhere in this thread, guns do not confer freedom. I am just as free as you are, probably more so.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
04-05-2009, 07:20 AM
...

The Nazis would have had another, better reason for wiping out Jews.
No group of untrained armed civilians will ever win over a trained army with access to heavy weapons.

.....

Which leaves the interesting question about the Russians, and before them the Brits, in Afghanistan...

Peerie Maa
04-05-2009, 07:32 AM
Which leaves the interesting question about the Russians, and before them the Brits, in Afghanistan...

Different game plan. Think about who surrounds who. The different terrain. Mobility and the ability to disappear. And above all a totally corrupt ideology commanding the army. (I mean the Nazis not the USSR or the Bush administration)

skuthorp
04-05-2009, 07:39 AM
Difference is with Afghanistan that the Brits, the US and the Russians were invaders, and nominally christian to boot. So they had to deal with a religion with a milenium of opposition as well as a strict tribal culture that mirrors the best resistance set up you could imagine, no effective central government to negotiate with and a people who have been resisting invaders since before Alexander. (You could add a modicum of training and weapons from both Russia and the west as it suited them).
We digress. I expect we'll see much more of this as the recession bites. Tragedies both public and private as a firearm in easy reach is used as a 'solution' to frustration and anger.

The Bigfella
04-05-2009, 07:42 AM
Yeah - two more mass shootings in the US today

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
04-05-2009, 07:44 AM
Is there a tourist season, in the same sense as a grouse season?

skuthorp
04-05-2009, 07:46 AM
Makes a tetchy PM look small beer eh Ian?
No PI, I think tourists are just collateral, collateral damage. Caught in the cross fire so to speak.

mtelow
04-05-2009, 07:49 AM
I didn't mean to offend anyone with my first post. This is a subject, as controversial as it is, that is very important to my family and I. For the ones who have decided, or the goverment has decided for you, that you can not own a gun, what will you do if someone breaks into your home and threatens your loved ones? Call for help? In America the courts have ruled they have no obligation to protect you. Most people wear a seatbelt when driving a car, not because they expect to get into an accident, but in the rare event one does happen. I carry a gun for the same reason. I don't expect to use it but carry for the same reason I put a seat belt on when I drive. It's there just in case. Two of the recent shootings took place in NY and CA. These states have some of the toughest gun laws on the books. Both states have assault weapon bans and bans on high capacity magazines yet this did nothing to prevent theses terrible events. They happen in gun free zones where only the law abiding citizens follow the law, not the criminals, and they pay the ultimate price with their life by following that law. The criminals have no fear of there prey because they know they are disarmed, have no way to resist, and can shoot them like fish in a barrel. I believe eveyone on this Earth, no matter where they live, has the right to protect ones life and the lives of there loved ones and no goverment has the right to take away that unalienable right.

Phillip Allen
04-05-2009, 07:50 AM
Two days ago I bought a new rifle at Wal Mart. I stopped in at the sporting goods dept to see if they had any .22 ammo...it has gotten very, very hard to find. I also wanted a fishing license.
I asked the clerk (John...80 years old) to show me a particular rifle. I had been thinking off and on about buying one of these and the price was much less than other places...I said "I'll take it"...much like buying a wrist watch so far. I filled out paperwork promising I was me and that I wasn't a lunatic or a train robber...I signed it. John went to the nearby phone and called the authorities and asked them if I was a fake "me" and if I was a lunatic or a train robber...they pronounced me-me, sane, and a non-train robber. John then called store management to assist with completion of the sale...15 minutes later "management" reluctantly showed up, having been interrupted from selling a wrist watch. She asked me if I was me, if I was still sane and had I just come from the train station.
I paid my money and she picked up the boxed rifle and walked with me to the front of the store and outside where she handed me the box au fresco...I put it into my car and went home and laid it on the table

Simple...huh?

Epilogue: that rifle has not jumped up and shot anyone yet…it just lays there, steeping in it’s own stagnant pool of malignance…

cybulski
04-05-2009, 08:00 AM
well just like everythingelse, it all depends on how you look at it.
I wouldn't surrender my weapons, nor would i register them, I dont want the government to know what type of firearms i have.
I suspect the gun laws will be changing shortly anyway,now that we have that idiot in the white house. You better aquire all you can, and hide or wrap in oil sheets and plastic and bury, I have several stashed away.I bought a few from a friend of mine, real cheap,and i didnt want to get caught with them, so i wraped them and burried, they have been burried for 4 years. I dug them up last year, they looked as good as the day i wraped them Get ammo reloaders also, you will have to register, and sign forms to even get ammo. Well i hope it dosent get that bad, but it wouldn't suprise me.

skuthorp
04-05-2009, 08:12 AM
"You better aquire all you can"
And many others with a more malign reason will do so too. But because of that attitude, and the very logical reason for it Phillip and John I can not see any effective change occuring. A change of law is one thing if it occurs, but enforcement is another and police or feds, they are just people too and do not want to get into firefights with fellow citizens. Maybe you could end up with martial law in some places. It seems foolish to maket the situation worse, when it's a cultural change that is needed. Whatever changes to gun laws, if any, will have to grow out of the people themselves, not be served up from on high by 'authority'.
I do hope things do get better very soon over there.

Joe (SoCal)
04-05-2009, 08:14 AM
well just like everythingelse, it all depends on how you look at it.
I wouldn't surrender my weapons, nor would i register them, I dont want the government to know what type of firearms i have.
I suspect the gun laws will be changing shortly anyway,now that we have that idiot in the white house. You better aquire all you can, and hide or wrap in oil sheets and plastic and bury, I have several stashed away.I bought a few from a friend of mine, real cheap,and i didnt want to get caught with them, so i wraped them and burried, they have been burried for 4 years. I dug them up last year, they looked as good as the day i wraped them Get ammo reloaders also, you will have to register, and sign forms to even get ammo. Well i hope it dosent get that bad, but it wouldn't suprise me.



Paranoid tinfoil hat wearing Gun Nuts :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Whata ya gonna do ?:rolleyes:

cybulski
04-05-2009, 08:20 AM
call it what you will, im my own man, and i do what i want, im not a sheep. But some peole need someone to follow, or someone to tell them how to live.

Bob Adams
04-05-2009, 08:32 AM
Yes - Australia had a more entrenched "gun culture" than the US - but that was during and after the 1850's gold rush. A very high percentage of people were armed in those days.

The turning point in Australia was the Port Arthur massacre in 1996 - an isolated tourist spot where 35 people died at the hands of a scumbag with a semi-auto rifle.

A number of decisions were taken. The government said it would buy back unwanted weapons - and declared an amnesty for handing in illegal weapons. The government removed "personal protection" as a legitimate reason for owning a weapon - and pretty much everyone agreed with that. The government outlawed assault rifles and semi-autos of all kinds.

Legitimate reasons for owning firearms include collecting, hunting and target shooting. Hunters need to show they have somewhere to hunt (I have a permission letter to control vermin on a 100 acre property, for example. I also belong to a sporting shooters club).

There are some exceptions to the above (farmers can get semi-autos), some people in high risk situations can get concealed carry permits, etc.

A critical element of the Oz situation is safe gun storage. As Rob mentioned - gun safes - and separate locked ammo storage. Having a loaded weapon laying around is gaol (jail) bait.

The vast majority of US gun homicides do not involve drugs or gangs - they occur due to out of control emotions during arguments. Such people often have a history of violence. People with a conviction for violent behaviour (eg domestic assault) cannot get a gun licence here. And that's a damn good thing.

Cops here now know if firearms are present in a house during a call to a domestic situation. They also know that people in cars aren't likely to be carrying a loaded pistol. Sure there are exceptions - but they are very rare.

People who flaunt the gun laws know they have a high chance of getting caught too. We have cops patrolling in the city centres with dogs that sniff out guns and drugs. Highly effective. High penalties.

It isn't hard to do. You just have to care more about people than toys.

It isn't about freedom. Its about responsibility.

I own four rifles.

That's wonderful. If I could be assured the criminal element would lock up thier weapons, I would religate mine to target shooting (which I enjoy very much). As it it, they are locked up, but accesable to me quickly.

BTW, the disgruntled immigrant shooter was suspected of planning a bank robbery several years ago and had a drug problem. Legally, he shouldn't have had guns anyway. See my point? He didn't turn them in. I don't suspect most criminals would.

Joe (SoCal)
04-05-2009, 08:46 AM
call it what you will, im my own man, and i do what i want, im not a sheep. But some peole need someone to follow, or someone to tell them how to live.


And some people don't NEED a gun to be a man. :p

cybulski
04-05-2009, 09:01 AM
lol, ok joe

CK 17
04-05-2009, 09:28 AM
Epilogue: that rifle has not jumped up and shot anyone yet…it just lays there, steeping in it’s own stagnant pool of malignance…

Cute touching story Phillip. The exact same story of every gun out there which has killed someone.

CK 17
04-05-2009, 09:33 AM
We need a sustained Federal buy back program. We need to be grinding them up in massive quantities. At the same time we need to slow the sales to those with truely legitimate needs like hunting and competion.

It would take years but we could turn this thing around.

Phillip Allen
04-05-2009, 09:36 AM
Cute touching story Phillip. The exact same story of every gun out there which has killed someone.

an, oddly enough, similar to everyone which hasn't killed anyone

Phillip Allen
04-05-2009, 09:37 AM
We need a sustained Federal buy back program. We need to be grinding them up in massive quantities. At the same time we need to slow the sales to those with truely legitimate needs like hunting and competion.

It would take years but we could turn this thing around.

What do you mean "we" pale-face?

Joe (SoCal)
04-05-2009, 09:50 AM
No we just need to become tolerant and immune to the media onslaught of mass shooting like the four over hast month. We need to embrace cute little stories like grandma's blowing away the crazed meth heads and the cute little slice of life gun safety threads that Philip "Aww Shucks" Alan preaches. Shhhhhhh don't look at the body bags, and pools of blood with the neat little cones marking the shell casings, it's no more dangerous than a big ol swimmin hole or a GPS.

Shhhhh go back to sleep Bigfella's stats are all wrong, guns are not designed to put holes in flesh with hot lead, there humble and sweet just like mom's ol apple pie, everyone should have a slice of some semi automatic 9mm / 30-06 handgun, kill zone , knock down power second amendment lovin. It's just a lil ol thang that goe's bang bang. Just like a lil ol cap gun all ya'all had as a youngin cept ifin ya need some killin they can do that just fine. Cause we all know that guns don't kill people, people pointing guns and pulling the trigger kills people. Ya'all see the difference dont ya.

Hwyl
04-05-2009, 09:51 AM
Phillip, I'm very worried that somehow you think it's amusing that all those por people in Binghampton were killed, three policemen in Pittsburgh, 5 children out West, Jack Grebe's friend and his wife, all irretrievable dead from gun violence, just in the last three or four days. Somehow you think this is all good clean fun.

Maybe it's time you took one of those river camping trip that you claim help you sort out your priorities


Edit, I see Joe and I think alike about some things

Peerie Maa
04-05-2009, 10:01 AM
I wonder whether this is all about good ol' American Capitalism.

The gun manufacturing industry would not generate so much profit if they could not shift large numbers of weapons through Walmart (Walmart fer Cr%sakes?:eek:). So the manufacturers sponsor Gun Lobbies to promote gun ownership. Said gun lobby organizations pedal all sort of crap reasons why gun ownership is good and "all American". Reminds me of the recent behavior of those other death merchants the tobacco industry.

Nicholas Scheuer
04-05-2009, 10:31 AM
Hate yo pop your bubble, Peerie Maa, but I don't think the guns they sell at Wall-Mart are made in the USA.

Registration is a good idea. In the blank where the form asks "What do you intend to do with this gun?" the guy in Binghampton surlely wrote "Kill peoples when I gets pissed off."

No, Wait! They don't have a blank like that!

Never mind!

Moby Nick

CK 17
04-05-2009, 10:35 AM
What do you mean "we" pale-face?

By "we" I mean the United States. The buy back programs that I know of are voluntary. You would support a massive voluntary buy back program, wouldn't you? The voluntary part of it wouldn't violate any of your sensibilities would it?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
04-05-2009, 10:36 AM
Hate yo pop your bubble, Peerie Maa, but I don't think the guns they sell at Wall-Mart are made in the USA.
....

Moby Nick

Cool - the oh so cunning Chinese economic warfare theory.

You want to kill lots of the American riuning dogs - but they are a long way off.

1. Make Lots of guns just slightly more expensive than they can afford.

2. Lend then the money to buy the guns.

3. Charge them interest on the money while they use the guns to kill one another.

Fiendishly clever.

Phillip Allen
04-05-2009, 10:42 AM
By "we" I mean the United States. The buy back programs that I know of are voluntary. You would support a massive voluntary buy back program, wouldn't you? The voluntary part of it wouldn't violate any of your sensibilities would it?

it appears you support the disarming of the US citizens and the repeal of one (so far) of our amendments

"shall not be infringed"

how do you feel we should go about geting rid of the fourth amendment? (and the first amendment to follow that one?)

Peerie Maa
04-05-2009, 10:44 AM
Hate yo pop your bubble, Peerie Maa, but I don't think the guns they sell at Wall-Mart are made in the USA.

Registration is a good idea. In the blank where the form asks "What do you intend to do with this gun?" the guy in Binghampton surlely wrote "Kill peoples when I gets pissed off."

No, Wait! They don't have a blank like that!

Never mind!

Moby Nick

I found this quite interesting

A New Squeeze on Gun Imports

Published: Tuesday, April 7, 1998

''You do not need an Uzi to go deer hunting,'' President Clinton said yesterday in announcing a permanent ban on the importation of 58 types of semiautomatic assault weapons. That principle should have been recognized years ago. Mr. Clinton's directive will at last close a loophole that has allowed foreign gun dealers to infiltrate the legal barrier against imports of assault weapons.
The 1968 Gun Control Act generally prohibits firearm imports, unless they are ''particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.'' In 1989, President Bush banned imports of 43 types of semiautomatic assault weapons. Most had military features like grenade launchers, bayonet mounts, pistol grips, night sights and the ability to accept large detachable magazines, which allow a shooter to fire multiple rounds without reloading.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms took the position that a weapon with any of these features other than the detachable magazine could not meet the ''sporting purposes'' test and would therefore be banned. Foreign gun manufacturers quickly altered their products to meet these guidelines. But since detachable magazines, including those that hold more than 10 rounds, were still allowed, the modified weapons could still include them. Since 1991, 425,000 modified assault weapons have been allowed into this country -- even as Congress was approving legislation to ban the domestic manufacture, sale and possession of 19 types of assault weapons.
Last November the Treasury Department temporarily suspended the imports and began a review of the sporting-purposes test as it applied to 59 models of assault weapons that were getting past the import ban. The review found that large-capacity magazines did not serve any sporting purpose like hunting or target shooting. To no one's surprise, the review also found that the large-capacity magazines were very popular among criminals.
The order will prevent 1.6 million assault weapons that have already received import permits or are awaiting approval from entering this country. Mr. Clinton is to be commended for this decision, and for ignoring the contemptible arguments of the gun lobby, which is complaining that profits for gun importers will now be reduced. But there are still nearly 200 million weapons out there, many of them in the wrong hands. The fight for meaningful gun control is far from over.


A version of this editorial appeared in print on Tuesday, April 7, 1998, on section A page 26 of the New York edition.I could not quote this, but it has some relevant statistics:


http://www.hoovers.com/gun-manufacturing/--ID__190--/free-ind-fr-profile-basic.xhtml

I would conclude that there is a lot of internal vested interest.

cybulski
04-05-2009, 10:46 AM
pitiful, what a nation of panzy @ss p#$@%s we have become, and its sure to get worse with the logic i see here.

Phillip Allen
04-05-2009, 10:50 AM
pitiful, what a nation of panzy a$$ p***ys we have become, and its sure to get worse with the logic i see here.

clean up your language please...I need all the help I can get and you are useless to me from bilge-rat jail...

cybulski
04-05-2009, 10:51 AM
oops, sorry, slip of the finger, but its still true

CK 17
04-05-2009, 11:01 AM
it appears you support the disarming of the US citizens and the repeal of one (so far) of our amendments

"shall not be infringed"

how do you feel we should go about geting rid of the fourth amendment? (and the first amendment to follow that one?)

But it's voluntary Phillip. Only those that want to disarm would need to disarm. I see piles of gun grindings forming hugh mounds of harmless bits of metal. They could be melted down and re cast as eco-friendly cars. The Humanity Phillip. For God's sake the Humanity of it man

Phillip Allen
04-05-2009, 11:10 AM
But it's voluntary Phillip. Only those that want to disarm would need to disarm. I see piles of gun grindings forming hugh mounds of harmless bits of metal. They could be melted down and re cast as eco-friendly cars. The Humanity Phillip. For God's sake the Humanity of it man

You are right of course and I am sorry I doubted you...the cars will kill far more than the guns would have anyway...perhaps we could name the eco friendly cars something like "The Pious"

Phillip Allen
04-05-2009, 11:19 AM
CK 17,
here's one for ya...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLpx_yioYik&NR=1

cybulski
04-05-2009, 11:22 AM
lol, thats to funny

Phillip Allen
04-05-2009, 11:25 AM
another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5rQM_HAcfA&NR=1

ChaseKenyon
04-05-2009, 11:57 AM
No group of untrained armed civilians will ever win over a trained army with access to heavy weapons.




So I guess your history books say that england won the American Revolutionary War?



As to guns and such .......

In NH we have a shall issue law for concealed carry. In reality though your local police chief can hold up your permit for quite a while unless:


1 you have completed a (run by the local police department) hand gun course.

or 2 you have a valid hunting license which REQUIRES a hunter safety and gun safety course.

Most states require similar hunter safety courses to get a hunting license.

I know quite a few gun collectors here in our general town area. Our police chief knows who they are and he has his list of concealed permitees and his list of ex military trained individuals.

If called on by the chief we know where to go to pick up any need weapons we do not already own.


As to the gun manufacturers themselves;

Winchester is gone.

Ruger and Colt are both hanging by a spider web thread. The majority % of firearms available to purchase in the USA are made elsewhere and imported. So it would seem that our culture is a valuable market for many other country's industry.


One collector I know who has a federal military collectors license ($1000 plus and many hoops to jump through) which allows full automatics lives on a farm in town. several times a year he has a nice cookout and invites friends who have concealed and military permits over for tager practice and training.

THe police chief is good friend and thankful that there is an available arsenal to him that the town and police department could never afford.


So is it a good thing he had this huge investment of $ that is available to the local authorities? or is that a bad thing?

Personally I think it is great that he does this and maintains it as available to the town.

Peerie Maa
04-05-2009, 12:28 PM
So I guess your history books say that england won the American Revolutionary War?


As to the gun manufacturers themselves;

Winchester is gone.

Ruger and Colt are both hanging by a spider web thread. The majority % of firearms available to purchase in the USA are made elsewhere and imported. So it would seem that our culture is a valuable market for many other country's industry.



A couple of points.
War fighting has changed since the military marched around in red coats carrying muzzle loaders. My point still stands re the 1940's.
Was not some French guy involved with training your army around then?

Marie-Joseph Paul Yves Roch Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de la Fayette (or Lafayette) (6 September 1757 – 20 May 1834) was a French military officer born in the province of Auvergne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auvergne_%28province%29) in south central France. Lafayette was a general in the American Revolutionary War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War) and a leader of the Garde Nationale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde_Nationale) during the French Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution).
In the American Revolution, Lafayette served in the Continental Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Army) under George Washington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington). Wounded during the Battle of Brandywine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Brandywine), he still managed to organize a successful retreat. He served with distinction in the Battle of Rhode Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rhode_Island). In the middle of the war, he returned to France to negotiate an increased French commitment. On his return, he blocked troops led by Cornwallis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Cornwallis,_1st_Marquess_Cornwallis) at Yorktown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Yorktown) while the armies of Washington and Jean-Baptiste Donatien de Vimeur, comte de Rochambeau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Donatien_de_Vimeur,_comte_de_Rochambeau), prepared for battle against the British. (Wiki again)


As to whether your gun smiths are out competed from abroad or not, the American gun industry still has commercial interests in your continuing to provide a market. You are coming close to nit picking in your arguments.

JimD
04-05-2009, 12:40 PM
...As to the gun manufacturers themselves;

Winchester is gone.

Ruger and Colt are both hanging by a spider web thread. The majority % of firearms available to purchase in the USA are made elsewhere and imported. ...


Yeah, but look at the bright side. Globally, the USA is still a leader:

http://www.globalissues.org/article/74/the-arms-trade-is-big-business#GlobalArmsSalesBySupplierNations

Flying Orca
04-05-2009, 01:16 PM
Cool - the oh so cunning Chinese economic warfare theory.

You want to kill lots of the American riuning dogs - but they are a long way off.

1. Make Lots of guns just slightly more expensive than they can afford.

2. Lend then the money to buy the guns.

3. Charge them interest on the money while they use the guns to kill one another.

Fiendishly clever.

Well, they are an especially tricky people (http://www.amazon.com/Especially-Tricky-People-Gary-Trudeau/dp/0030206812).

JimD
04-05-2009, 01:26 PM
There's a lot more to learn from the Chinese than just kung fu.

Joe (SoCal)
04-05-2009, 02:13 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpSfNUlUk-Q&feature=PlayList&p=065E049888DF2033&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=60

Joe (SoCal)
04-05-2009, 02:23 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZsTZfaY9Fs

Joe (SoCal)
04-05-2009, 02:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXAUQWqUAXY&feature=PlayList&p=407099F02FA3B747&index=0&playnext=1

cybulski
04-05-2009, 02:44 PM
verry tragic, and until people face reality, and the real problems, and stop blaming a peice of metal for human emotions, and greed, and hatred it will keep on hapening.

Flying Orca
04-05-2009, 02:49 PM
That's just a tad disingenuous. Everyone realizes that the problem isn't with the piece of metal. What too many fail to realize is that some restrictions on who can have the piece of metal, and on what kind of piece of metal they can have, effectively reduces the misuse of said pieces of metal.

Joe (SoCal)
04-05-2009, 02:51 PM
verry tragic, and until people face reality, and the real problems, and stop blaming a peice of metal for human emotions, and greed, and hatred it will keep on hapening.

A gun makes it easier, faster and more efficient to do the job, its the tool DESIGNED & BUILT for killing, just like a dictionary is a tool designed to makes it easier, faster and more efficient to do the job of spelling and would be a major help to you :p

Bob Adams
04-05-2009, 02:53 PM
That's just a tad disingenuous. Everyone realizes that the problem isn't with the piece of metal. What too many fail to realize is that some restrictions on who can have the piece of metal, and on what kind of piece of metal they can have, effectively reduces the misuse of said pieces of metal.

There ARE restrictions on who can posess said peices of metal. The problem as I see it, is instead enforcing those restrictions, people want to heap on more, to the point it affects the legal owners. Who, by the way, are the only ones who will comply with them.

Flying Orca
04-05-2009, 02:57 PM
Whatever, dude. The fact remains that other countries have introduced more restrictions, and wow, less people are killed by guns. I guess it all depends on what you want.

cybulski
04-05-2009, 02:59 PM
Restrictions and limitations would only work if all participate, i dont understand that logic, if criminals, or people with violent backgrounds want weapons, they will get them, off the street or whearever, people are just to naive for their own good. Do they think all the criminals will abide by the laws?Just dosent make sense to me.

cybulski
04-05-2009, 03:03 PM
thanks for the info blow uh i mean joe

stevebaby
04-05-2009, 03:04 PM
There are plenty of other laws that criminals don't obey. Do you propose that those laws be abolished too?

cybulski
04-05-2009, 03:10 PM
i didnt propose any such thing, if people dont want to beable to protect themselves and their kids thats fine, but dont try to stop me

Joe (SoCal)
04-05-2009, 03:10 PM
There ARE restrictions on who can posess said peices of metal. The problem as I see it, is instead enforcing those restrictions, people want to heap on more, to the point it affects the legal owners. Who, by the way, are the only ones who will comply with them.

Question is a car also considered a piece of metal ?
I've only advocated for the same exact restriction on ALL pieces of metal. Licensed, titled, registered, insured, & policed.

Before you can buy a gun you have to be educated in the use of the firearm and pass a written as well as a range test. If you pass you get a firearm license. Based upon your skill and need you get different class of license like a CDL license for truck drivers and a motorcycle license. You can have a shotgun or a rifle licenses, a higher level you can have a handgun, and even higher a carry permit.

Then you need to purchase gun insurance in case your gun accidentally goes off, or is used in a criminal activity. A fund can be set up for victims of gun violence.

Then Gun Title can be transferred and you must register the weapon.

If you use the weapon in a reckless way, like not storing it properly or following gun safety you can receive a fine and your gun insurance goes up. Too many fines you have your lisence revoked.

If you have no issues then you have no issues. Just like classic car collectors can have a garrages full of registered, insured and titled autos, a gun owner can have their collection of guns and operate them in a safe and legal way.

Joe (SoCal)
04-05-2009, 03:12 PM
i didnt propose any such thing, if people dont want to beable to protect themselves and their kids thats fine, but dont try to stop me

I don't NEED a gun to do that, sad that you think you do.

cybulski
04-05-2009, 03:16 PM
i dont need one, but you never know when you might, i would rather be prepared, and all that crap you put up befpre this post is idiotic, your a moron if you think that way

cybulski
04-05-2009, 03:17 PM
sorry i must have lost my dictionary

jack grebe
04-05-2009, 03:17 PM
Remember prohibition? Who benefited?
It wasn't the drinkers or legal bar owners was it?

I think it may be time for setting up manufacturing
of projectiles in one of those countries that pays like
$1. a month for labor and start stock piling.

It won't be long before the drug of choice on the
nations street corners will be bullets.

After all, they haven't stopped the drug flow, how
are they going to stop smuggling of bullets into the U.S.

They can't. There will just be a higher markup and you will
need to purchase covertly......and don't give me the crap about
prison, that has not acted as a deterent for anything in the past,
why would gun/bullet trade be any different.


Someone, somewhere, is going to make a ton off of this
type of control.

jack grebe
04-05-2009, 03:18 PM
, your a moron if you think that way
When one resorts to name calling, the true "moron" emerges

cybulski
04-05-2009, 03:21 PM
good point jack

cybulski
04-05-2009, 03:22 PM
lol

cybulski
04-05-2009, 03:23 PM
so i guess were in the same boat huh?

Joe (SoCal)
04-05-2009, 03:29 PM
i dont need one, but you never know when you might, i would rather be prepared, and all that crap you put up befpre this post is idiotic, your a moron if you think that way

I know myself I don't hesitate in a life an death situation and I do not NEED a gun.
The great thing about a mind set is you never have to load it, you never have to go and get it, it's always there always loaded. There are very few people who have this instinct most Need a gun to replicate that feeling.

Peerie Maa
04-05-2009, 03:31 PM
Australia, New Zealand, Canada are all places where according to Govt statistics gun ownership is close to or as high as it is in the USA, but deaths and injuries from guns are way way less. I dont believe thats due to the number of guns, I believe that the difference is that in those countries gun ownership is not a right, its a privelege, one that has to be earned and which can be revoked if the conditions of the licence are breached.
There is a big difference in how guns are percieved.
All three of these countries have some illegal arms in the hands of criminals, but relatively few, cops are usually unarmed, and an attack with a firearm is very uncommon.

I was in the USA a while back and I was pulled over by a pair of cops for what they thought was odd behaviour ( night time, snowing, just off a 16 hour journey in an aircraft, a double laned roundabout and the very first time I'd driven on the right, I'd stopped 50 yards short of the intersection to look at a map and figure out my responses and rights of way). One cop stood with a gun on me while the other hauled me out of the car and shook me down then the two of them, gun still out, grilled me in the snow and sleet for a good ten minutes. I have travelled a LOT and even in Russia never got treated like that.!
Freedom? Read the constant bitching in this forum about government rules, coastguard rules, state and federal rules, petty beaurocrats, officialdom and form filling fee paying over regulated etc etc. Free? Hah! You guys believe your own probaganda.

Cedric Rhyn

Hey John Cybulski, did you read this post?
Here is the other side of the coin.
An an American visitor to the UK pulls over just before a roundabout to check for directions on his road map. A couple of Bobby's drive up and stop. One of them comes over to the Americans car, and taps on the window. The following dialogue ensues. "Hello sir, is there a problem, can we help?" No guns, no manhandling, just courtesy.
Now who feels safe and protected?
The American cop who feels the need to draw his weapon and push it in a strangers face?
Said stranger who is sitting by an American roundabout?
Or the American visitor to the UK and our coppers?

Who is more free, who is safer?

cybulski
04-05-2009, 03:32 PM
lol joe stop your killing me, my side is actualy hurting from the laughter

Flying Orca
04-05-2009, 03:32 PM
Restrictions and limitations would only work if all participate, i dont understand that logic

That's because it's not logic. This black-and-white thinking of yours is fine for a fantasy world, but here in the real world, there are only shades of grey... and restrictions and limitations work quite effectively even when compliance is less than 100%.

Logic, on the other hand, might involve looking at what has proven to work elsewhere, and applying it to a similar situation. :rolleyes:

cybulski
04-05-2009, 03:35 PM
peerie, im not real sure what your trying to say, but you guys are driving me crazy

Joe (SoCal)
04-05-2009, 03:36 PM
joe your killing me

See no gun Needed :p

cybulski
04-05-2009, 03:36 PM
lol keep em coming

2MeterTroll
04-05-2009, 03:36 PM
How about we inject a little fact into this discussion?

World
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

US
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

Peerie Maa
04-05-2009, 03:37 PM
peerie, im not real sure what your trying to say, but you guys are driving me crazy

You found the contrast difficult to understand?:confused: Try taking more water with it.:D

cybulski
04-05-2009, 03:38 PM
you guys obviously feel verry strong about the things we have discussed, and i can understand alot of what you say, but it is just a matter of choice for me

cybulski
04-05-2009, 03:39 PM
i see the contrast, but not your point, they are different people, different people act in different ways

stevebaby
04-05-2009, 03:42 PM
i didnt propose any such thing, if people dont want to beable to protect themselves and their kids thats fine, but dont try to stop meThat's really not an answer to my question. How would you propose to treat laws that some people do not obey?

cybulski
04-05-2009, 03:42 PM
good info troll

jack grebe
04-05-2009, 03:44 PM
How about we inject a little fact into this discussion?

World
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

US
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm
WHY???????? this is the bilge

cybulski
04-05-2009, 03:44 PM
That's really not an answer to my question. How would you propose to treat laws that some people do not obey?
thats a tricky subject, by education, enforcing current laws before adding new ones

cybulski
04-05-2009, 03:46 PM
i feel like weve acomplished alot today lol

Peerie Maa
04-05-2009, 03:49 PM
you guys obviously feel verry strong about the things we have discussed, and i can understand alot of what you say, but it is just a matter of choice for me

Yes the reason that I feel kind of strong is that I like every one of the few Americans I have met, yet for some perverse reason your nation wants to maintain a society where guns can be bought at Walmart, there are so many guns that the criminal element find it real easy to acquire guns and law abiding gun owners can become criminal gun owners. A society where your police have to go through the stressful experience of having to draw a gun when approaching an innocent car driver reading a map. That saddens me profoundly.

cybulski
04-05-2009, 03:57 PM
peerie you have a good point, but this is america, cops here have to be ready for anything, i would rather he pulled his gun as a precaution, and not have to use it, rather than him not pulling it, and maby the driver being a criminal who isnt abiding by the gun laws kills both of them, boy i bet their familys would find comfort in knowing that he didnt pull his weapon. i have several friends who are cops, and wouldnt want to see any of them hurt because of trying to be to friendly.

2MeterTroll
04-05-2009, 03:58 PM
WHY???????? this is the bilge

Cause It gets boring listening to folks go round and round and round like skipping records.
I get tired of hearing how screwed up the US is about every thing and how superior the rest of the world is; when all in all we are just a whole bunch of monkeys that will take any advantage we can get including icecicles and kill each other with them.

If you actually look the most dangerous thing is a sharp pointy object with a cutting edge. Humans have been killing humans for a long time guns are just a new way to do it and stay clean.

Peerie Maa
04-05-2009, 04:04 PM
peerie you have a good point, but this is america, cops here have to be ready for anything, i would rather he pulled his gun as a precaution, and not have to use it, rather than him not pulling it, and maby the driver being a criminal who isnt abiding by the gun laws kills both of them, boy i bet their familys would find comfort in knowing that he didnt pull his weapon. i have several friends who are cops, and wouldnt want to see any of them hurt because of trying to be to friendly.

Ah, I see that you did miss my point.
Here in the UK the police do not need to pull a gun because there is no reason to assume that the guy reading his map is armed and dangerous. A lot less stressful and safer all round.

cybulski
04-05-2009, 04:05 PM
thats an interesting analogy, i waunder what the total number of firearm deaths vs death by a blade or other sharp object would be

cybulski
04-05-2009, 04:07 PM
actualy i did get it, but your not from the us so you probly dont really understand how things work here.

2MeterTroll
04-05-2009, 04:13 PM
Well lets see how far back do you want to go and what would you accept as data?
We have had pointy things for a very long time

cybulski
04-05-2009, 04:13 PM
for some it is as much abot the idea as it is about the firearm.

cybulski
04-05-2009, 04:16 PM
you would need all possible, since the beginning of time to conduct an accurate study, any pointy object would suffice, i mean all the firearms are grouped together, so all sticks spears, sharpened bones, rock spear tips, geez, i could go on, and on

Phillip Allen
04-05-2009, 04:17 PM
How about we inject a little fact into this discussion?

World
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

US
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

how many actually read through the links? How many read with an open mind?

cybulski
04-05-2009, 04:19 PM
pretty ensightful, and informative, i thought




oops lost that dictionary again

Phillip Allen
04-05-2009, 04:22 PM
Ah, I see that you did miss my point.
Here in the UK the police do not need to pull a gun because there is no reason to assume that the guy reading his map is armed and dangerous. A lot less stressful and safer all round.

when I point a gun at you...it is called assault with a deadly weapon...it is illegal
when a cop points a gun at a person...?

2MeterTroll
04-05-2009, 04:24 PM
Don't know maybe one or two. Every one has an agenda so the open mind part is a moot point.

cybulski
04-05-2009, 04:25 PM
insight see, im not completely illiterate, im just polish, sometimes takes me a little longer than the rest lol :)

cybulski
04-05-2009, 04:26 PM
moot, heeeey , i remember the moot skit on saturday night live, with jessee jackson, it was hillarious

Peerie Maa
04-05-2009, 04:59 PM
thats an interesting analogy, i waunder what the total number of firearm deaths vs death by a blade or other sharp object would be

Here is data on guns:
Country Ireland[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-National_homicide_rates.2C_UN_data_published_by_Na tion_Master.com-33) Germany[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-BKA.2C_German_federal_crime_statistics_2007_.28Ger man.29-34) Norway[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-National_homicide_rates.2C_UN_data_published_by_Na tion_Master.com-33) United Kingdom[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-National_homicide_rates.2C_UN_data_published_by_Na tion_Master.com-33) France[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-National_homicide_rates.2C_UN_data_published_by_Na tion_Master.com-33) Canada[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-Crime_in_Canada.2C_Canada_Statistics-28) Scotland[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-un8-35) United States[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-All_crimes_in_the_US_in_2004.2C_US_Bureau_of_Justi ce_Statistics-36) Russia[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-National_homicide_rates.2C_UN_data_published_by_Na tion_Master.com-33) Venezuela[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-National_homicide_rates.2C_UN_data_published_by_Na tion_Master.com-33) Jamaica[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-National_homicide_rates.2C_UN_data_published_by_Na tion_Master.com-33) South Africa[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-National_homicide_rates.2C_UN_data_published_by_Na tion_Master.com-33) Colombia[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-National_homicide_rates.2C_UN_data_published_by_Na tion_Master.com-33) Homicide rate 0.9 0.9 1.0 1.4 1.6 1.9 2.56 5.5 20.15 31.61 32.41 49.60 61.78 Year 2000 2007 2000 2000 2004 2004 2004 2000 2000 2000 2000 2000 Where there is a marked disparity between the incidence of crime in the US and all other comparable developed countries is in the per capita rate of murder committed with firearms. The most recent data show that the proportion of people in America killed by firearms is more than three and a half times greater than in Portugal, the next country of comparable development. [38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-37) (Scotland, though shown in the table, is not an independent country). The proportion of Americans killed by firearms per year is more than seven and a half times greater than the comparable proportion of residents in the 10 developed countries with the next highest rates of firearm homicides.[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-38)
SOURCES: US Bureau of Justice Statistics (2004),[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-All_crimes_in_the_US_in_2004.2C_US_Bureau_of_Justi ce_Statistics-36) Bundeskriminalamt, BKA (2007),[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-BKA.2C_German_federal_crime_statistics_2007_.28Ger man.29-34) Canada Statistics (2004),[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-Crime_in_Canada.2C_Canada_Statistics-28) Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems (2000)[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-National_homicide_rates.2C_UN_data_published_by_Na tion_Master.com-33)from Wiki
The table did not copy. It says USA is at 5.5/thousand and the UK 1.4

Knife crime is calculated at 178 incidents in 2007 out of a pop of 60.975million or 2.9 per thousand in the UK

B_B
04-05-2009, 05:15 PM
how many actually read through the links? How many read with an open mind?
do ever follow links which are purported to disagree with your preconceptions?
Say, the multitude of data supplied by Bigfella?

cybulski
04-05-2009, 05:23 PM
alot of info there peerie, do you think any of those numbers have been exadurated , or left out? what about all the crimes that dont get reported.

Peerie Maa
04-05-2009, 05:27 PM
alot of info there peerie, do you think any of those numbers have been exadurated , or left out? what about all the crimes that dont get reported.

Statisticians don't exadurate:confused: as a rule, there is some debate about the reporting rate, but again statisticians have the techniques to deal with that.

The Bigfella
04-05-2009, 05:31 PM
How about we inject a little fact into this discussion?

World
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

US
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm


Gee - we look at that and find that..



According to the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) in 2005, 477,040 victims of violent crimes stated that they faced an offender with a firearm.


and we see that Australia had 59 gun-homicides compared to the USA which had 9,369. So, on a population equalised basis, we should have had 839. We didn't.

If you guys could get your act together and achieve the same lower rate of gun homicides that we have, there would be 8,500 people avoiding gun murder every year. Don't forget - the vast majority of these people are just like your neighbours.... except they encountered an angry man with a gun.

Ish's big argument used to be that it was only the druggies getting killed. It isn't - 5% of gun murders are narcotics related. Most are people just like you who got into an argument with the wrong person. Those that died discovered that if someone pulls a gun on you and shoots - it doesn't matter how well armed you are - you die if their aim is good. A gun is only good for protection if you can shoot first. That only happens if you draw and aim first.

Have fun walking around with your gun trained on everyone else....

cybulski
04-05-2009, 05:41 PM
good thing we all have different perspectives

Peerie Maa
04-05-2009, 05:43 PM
He's all your Bigfella, I'm going to bed.:p

cybulski
04-05-2009, 05:52 PM
im done to

brad9798
04-05-2009, 08:40 PM
Things like this, however horrible, play right into this administration's plan to confiscate our guns!

They won't get mine, however!

;)

Joe (SoCal)
04-05-2009, 08:47 PM
Things like this, however horrible, play right into this administration's plan to confiscate our guns!

They won't get mine, however!

;)

Don't want to confiscate but how about they are regulated like a car. License , Register, Insure, & Ticket. You buy a gun you must show a valid license that you know how to use one, then you show proof of insurance then you register it. This way your gun is yours and you are responsible for it. Use it in a way that is not secure or a stupid you get a ticket, a fine and your gun insurance goes up. You cant just give it to yer buddy. There is a process to buy and sell and secure the transaction and the line of ownership.

Or would you just rather go to the Walmart and fill out a pathetic form that you can lie or buy one at a gun show and go out and blow people away or give it to someone who may sell it to someone who then my use it to BLOW a bunch of people away.

2MeterTroll
04-05-2009, 08:48 PM
sounds to me like our administration is only following the plans of the rest of the "civilized" countries.

brad9798
04-05-2009, 08:54 PM
Duh- of course, Joe! That only makes sense!

Joe (SoCal)
04-05-2009, 08:56 PM
Duh- of course, Joe! That only makes sense!

Cool so your for guns being only as regulated as car ownership is. Cool
My work is done her. :)

Phillip Allen
04-05-2009, 09:10 PM
"...shall not be infringed..."

brad9798
04-05-2009, 09:44 PM
Work, Joe?

It is simply common sense!

Memphis Mike
04-05-2009, 09:48 PM
im done to

Hey dude, are you really from Blytheville? I've been a little reluctant to ask. I have a lot of history there.

Memphis Mike
04-05-2009, 10:11 PM
I smell something here. I really can't put my fanger on it but it sure as hell don't smell like cotten.

BrianW
04-05-2009, 10:18 PM
Don't forget - the vast majority of these people are just like your neighbours.... except they encountered an angry man with a gun.

Might have to looked into that one, when I get some time. But I'm thinking the vast majority of murders involving angry men can be broken down into a few sub-cultures of the US, and I doubt many in the Bilge live in those neigborhoods.

BrianW
04-05-2009, 10:24 PM
If I sell a car to a private party, should I be required to make sure they have a drivers license and insurance?

Joe (SoCal)
04-05-2009, 10:34 PM
If I sell a car to a private party, should I be required to make sure they have a drivers license and insurance?

Nope you are allowed to transfer the title and remove the plates. You then submit the transaction to the DMV with the old plates. The buyer prior to purchase must obtain insurance and can not register or insure the car with out a license and insurance. If they use the car without that they are in jeopardy of fines, insurance surcharges and possible suspension of their license. Just for not doing what they are supposed to do and be a responsible driver. Its kinda a good system to emulate. It allows all law abiding citizens to own and sell guns or cars in a way that safe and responsible.

It also tracks the transaction of the firearm and has a self insuring policy fines and licensing fees that can go towards operating cost as well as payment to victim's should YOUR weapon discharge and BLOW A HOLE THROUGH SOMEONE FLESH like it was designed to do.

Tumzara
04-05-2009, 10:35 PM
well just like everythingelse, it all depends on how you look at it.
I wouldn't surrender my weapons, nor would i register them, I dont want the government to know what type of firearms i have.
I suspect the gun laws will be changing shortly anyway,now that we have that idiot in the white house. You better aquire all you can, and hide or wrap in oil sheets and plastic and bury, I have several stashed away.I bought a few from a friend of mine, real cheap,and i didnt want to get caught with them, so i wraped them and burried, they have been burried for 4 years. I dug them up last year, they looked as good as the day i wraped them Get ammo reloaders also, you will have to register, and sign forms to even get ammo. Well i hope it dosent get that bad, but it wouldn't suprise me.

Y'all don't live anywhere near Waco do ya?

Flying Orca
04-05-2009, 10:38 PM
Heck, we do better than that. Here we have a single insurer, run by the dreaded guvmint (gasp!). We tolerate it, because our insurance rates are much lower than those of our neighbours with private insurance... Anyway, when you sell your car, you have to notify the insurance people; there's a handy form that comes with every set of insurance papers. The new owner has to insure the car in order to legally drive it, of course.

S B
04-05-2009, 10:38 PM
What is interesting, is that in the U.S., a rifle,shotgun or pistol is refered to as a weapon. Everywhere else they are refered to as,a rifle,shotgun or pistol.

Bob Adams
04-05-2009, 10:39 PM
Nope you are allowed to transfer the title and remove the plates. You then submit the transaction to the DMV with the old plates. The buyer prior to purchase must obtain insurance and can not register or insure the car with out a license and insurance. If they use the car without that they are in jeopardy of fines, insurance surcharges and possible suspension of their license. Just for not doing what they are supposed to do and be a responsible driver. Its kinda a good system to emulate. It allows all law abiding citizens to own and sell guns or cars in a way that safe and responsible.

I don't know about the other states, but here in Maryland, privite parties cannot sell or otherwise transfer a handgun without the State Police approving the transaction.

Joe (SoCal)
04-05-2009, 10:49 PM
I don't know about the other states, but here in Maryland, privite parties cannot sell or otherwise transfer a handgun without the State Police approving the transaction.

Problem is inconsistency's between states. I was down in Fla walked into a gun shop just for the fun of it - I saw a nice little nickel plated pearl Handel 1911. I asked the man behind the counter what I had to do to buy it. He said I had to give him $1,200

Handguns


Permit to purchase handgun? No
Registration of handguns? No
Licensing of owners of handguns? No
Permit to carry handguns? Yes

Purchase and Possession:

No state permit is required to possess or purchase a rifle, shotgun or handgun.

Kinda looked like this

http://www.imfdb.org/images/c/c1/M1911A1-AutoOrdChrome_PF.jpg

Car ownership has less inconsistency's as well as a national database and cross state regulation it's a good example to follow.

Joe (SoCal)
04-05-2009, 10:55 PM
Gun laws in the United States vary from state to state and are independent of, but not contradictory to, existing federal firearms laws. Some U.S. states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._state) have also created so-called assault weapon bans that are independent of, though often similar to, the expired federal assault weapons ban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_assault_weapons_ban). The state level bans vary significantly in their form, content, and level of restriction. Forty-four states have a provision in their state constitutions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_constitution_%28United_States%29) similar to the Second Amendment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution ) of the Bill of Rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights) (the exceptions are California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California), Iowa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa), Maryland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland), Minnesota (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota), New Jersey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey), and New York (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York)).
Firearm license-holders are subject to the firearm laws of the state in which they are carrying, and not to the laws of the state in which the permit was issued. Reciprocity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocity) between states exists for certain licenses such as concealed carry permits. These are recognized on a state-by-state basis. For example, Arizona recognizes a Nevada permit, but Nevada does not recognize an Arizona permit. Some states do not allow out of state Concealed Carry Weapon ("CCW") permit holders, so it is important to understand the laws of each state when traveling with a handgun.

FWIW

Alaska

Subject/Law Long guns Handguns Relevant Statutes Notes State Permit to Purchase? No No None No Firearm registration? No No None No "Assault weapon" law? No No None No Owner license required? No No None No



Arkansas

Subject/Law Long guns Handguns Relevant Statutes Notes State Permit to Purchase? No No None No Firearm registration? No No None No "Assault weapon" law? No No None No Owner license required? No No None No

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
04-05-2009, 11:19 PM
We all aquire guns in different ways.
I took one of these off a 9 year old kid at the skating rink one night a few years back.
I told the kid to have the owner come to me to claim the gun.
I still have it.
It's a tiny .22 cal. two shot.
My killing spree would be over at two, but I sleep well knowing it's nearby and handy to only me.


http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=108273

Phillip Allen
04-06-2009, 03:56 AM
If I sell a car to a private party, should I be required to make sure they have a drivers license and insurance?

I can do better than that...If I buy that "car", I'm not required to support the insurance industry or license it with any state...I'm not required to do anything at all...so long as I do not drive it on public roads...I can tow it on public roads or carry it on a trailer...

BrianW
04-06-2009, 06:57 AM
Nope you are allowed to transfer the title and remove the plates. You then submit the transaction to the DMV with the old plates. The buyer prior to purchase must obtain insurance and can not register or insure the car with out a license and insurance.

What a pain. No rule like that in Alaska. On the Title, there's a portion that you can remove when you sell a truck, and give to the DMV if you want, but it's not the law. Tags go with the vehicle, unless they're vanity plates.

Everytime I've gotten a Title for one of my vehicles, I've been asked if I had insurance, but never required to prove it. Pretty sure you just get the 'a vehicle must be insured before driven on public roads' speach if you say no. But, you still get the Title.

Guess thats what makes the "United States" theory so nice. We're States, we're United, but we can make a lot of our own rules. Then we're free to move to whichever State in which we like the rules.

BrianW
04-06-2009, 07:06 AM
What is interesting, is that in the U.S., a rifle,shotgun or pistol is refered to as a weapon. Everywhere else they are refered to as,a rifle,shotgun or pistol.

I'd suggest that is a media related phenomenon, and not the reality. Certainly my hunting partners and I don't refer to our guns as weapons.

"Hey Joe, go grab a weapon and let's assault some deer."

Hmmm... nope, that just don't sound like anything I hear in the gun/hunting community I'm familiar with.

Joe (SoCal)
04-06-2009, 07:32 AM
"Hey Joe, go grab a weapon and let's assault some deer."


Sorry Brian don't like the taste of venison, but I would gladly grab a Leica and SHOOT some with ya, after we can have a steak and some brews ;)

BrianW
04-06-2009, 09:22 AM
Sorry Brian don't like the taste of venison, but I would gladly grab a Leica and SHOOT some with ya, after we can have a steak and some brews ;)

That's a deal!

JimD
04-06-2009, 09:35 AM
Any dictionary makes clear the distinct meaning of weapon.

Phillip Allen
04-06-2009, 09:38 AM
Any dictionary makes clear the distinct meaning of weapon.
it seems to me that the media maximizes for journalistic impact...weapon, assault, spree, mass..., hail of bullets and much more...the pity is the small minds who "lap" it up

Bob Adams
04-06-2009, 10:03 PM
Gun laws in the United States vary from state to state and are independent of, but not contradictory to, existing federal firearms laws. Some U.S. states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._state) have also created so-called assault weapon bans that are independent of, though often similar to, the expired federal assault weapons ban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_assault_weapons_ban). The state level bans vary significantly in their form, content, and level of restriction. Forty-four states have a provision in their state constitutions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_constitution_%28United_States%29) similar to the Second Amendment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution ) of the Bill of Rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights) (the exceptions are California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California), Iowa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa), Maryland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland), Minnesota (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota), New Jersey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey), and New York (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York)).
Firearm license-holders are subject to the firearm laws of the state in which they are carrying, and not to the laws of the state in which the permit was issued. Reciprocity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocity) between states exists for certain licenses such as concealed carry permits. These are recognized on a state-by-state basis. For example, Arizona recognizes a Nevada permit, but Nevada does not recognize an Arizona permit. Some states do not allow out of state Concealed Carry Weapon ("CCW") permit holders, so it is important to understand the laws of each state when traveling with a handgun.

FWIW

Alaska

Subject/Law Long guns Handguns Relevant Statutes Notes State Permit to Purchase? No No None No Firearm registration? No No None No "Assault weapon" law? No No None No Owner license required? No No None No



Arkansas

Subject/Law Long guns Handguns Relevant Statutes Notes State Permit to Purchase? No No None No Firearm registration? No No None No "Assault weapon" law? No No None No Owner license required? No No None No

But Joe, FEDERAL law still applies. That shop owner could not sell you that gun without a background check and 7 day waiting period, I believe, I don't claim to be an expert on gun laws, except as they apply to me.

cybulski
04-06-2009, 10:22 PM
Hey dude, are you really from Blytheville? I've been a little reluctant to ask. I have a lot of history there.
yeah ive been in blytheville for about 13 years, i like it in arkansas nice people, , alot of woods, plenty of lakes for sailing :), but if youve been here before you already know that.

Memphis Mike
04-06-2009, 10:35 PM
yeah ive been in blytheville for about 13 years, i like it in arkansas nice people, , alot of woods, plenty of lakes for sailing :), but if youve been here before you already know that.

What lake do you sail on? Heber Springs is nice.

My first wife was from Blytheville. I spent a lot of time there with her family. It's a farming community. Mostly cotten and soy beans. No lakes close by and certainly no sailboats. The closest thing that they can come to in boat in that neck of the woods is a flat bottom Jon boat and a big billy bass boat. Got any pictures of your boat there, Cybul?

cybulski
04-06-2009, 10:49 PM
yeah alot of farming here, heber is nice, you know of greers ferry or bulls shoals? I always liked the ozarks, verry beautiful there, we boated there when i was a kid, those are some of the memories that fuel the desire to sail.

Memphis Mike
04-06-2009, 10:55 PM
I know all of those places. Greers Ferry is my favorite. I've trout fished below the dam and boated on the lake for many years.

cybulski
04-06-2009, 11:01 PM
while i was in the military , we ran mock missions throughout arkansas, and got to camp at numerous lakes in the state, at the states expense :) ,


didnt get to do any sailing while there, but alot of scouting, and sight seeing

B_B
04-07-2009, 01:59 AM
it seems to me that the media maximizes for journalistic impact...weapon, assault, spree, mass..., hail of bullets and much more...the pity is the small minds who "lap" it up
Sweet Jesus Phillip - are you finally ready for our discussion or are you, AGAIN, going to beg a deferral?

Joe (SoCal)
04-07-2009, 06:02 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEzeAalyjLI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.google.com%2Fnews%3Fhl%3Den %26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial%26hs%3DFgo%26ei&feature=player_embedded

cybulski
04-07-2009, 07:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEzeAalyjLI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.google.com%2Fnews%3Fhl%3Den %26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial%26hs%3DFgo%26ei&feature=player_embedded

its amazing to me what people can justify in their minds

Phillip Allen
04-07-2009, 07:56 PM
maybe we should make manifestos illegal?