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jclays
04-02-2009, 10:20 AM
Talking to the local plywood supplier (Forest Products) this morning regarding marine plywood. Okume 1088 is made in France (expensive), Hydrotec 1088 standard and aquatec 6566 standard is Indonesian made and Doug Fir is US made. I know that Chinese plywood is having problems de-laminating. Are there problems with the Indonesian made plywoods?

Rational Root
04-02-2009, 10:58 AM
Talking to the local plywood supplier (Forest Products) this morning regarding marine plywood. Okume 1088 is made in France (expensive), Hydrotec 1088 standard and aquatec 6566 standard is Indonesian made and Doug Fir is US made. I know that Chinese plywood is having problems de-laminating. Are there problems with the Indonesian made plywoods?

If I say Italian cars are slow, am I referring to Fiat, or to Ferrari ?

China is a country with a BILLION people. I suspect there is more than one factory. To say Chinese Plywood delaminates seems like a pretty broad brush.

Indonesia is a land of 240 million people. Again I suspect there is more than one factory, some producing excellent products, others producing garbage.

Your best bet is an importer who deals with the same suppliers all the time and can vouch for the quality. If every batch of ply they get in is from the cheapest supplier that month, then it's a lotto.

Cheap is usually cheap for a reason. Expensive is often, but not always better.

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-02-2009, 11:22 AM
The French manufacurers have names. Joubert and Burguet (sic). Since they are well known they have a reputation to protect. Once you get into Asian products who knows who made them? The Indonesian manufacturer may well be a Chinese outfit or clones of same.
Once you get away from name brand ply you are relying on anecdotal information.
The BS 1088 standard is no longer used by British Standards but the requirements of that standard are well known. If someone claims their product complies with 1088 and they sell you stuff that, obviously, doesn't you should get a refund or replacement. Of course to accomplish this you have to know what the elements of the 1088 standard are and you have to be dealing with suppliers that are ethical.
Comparing ply by price alone ignores a lot of potential problems. I think the big name brand plys are worth the money because things go together faster and finish more easily. That's a savings in back labor which has to be worth something.

James McMullen
04-02-2009, 02:33 PM
How much plywood do you need? For a small boat, the cost of using the good stuff is hardly prohibitive. Don't skimp on the most fundamental and irreplaceable part of the boat--the hull itself! You can always save money on those extras and doo-dads that can be easily upgraded later.

jclays
04-02-2009, 05:00 PM
Forest Products is the only plywood distributor is So California that carries Marine plywood other than Fir plywood and these are my choices. I was going to try the Hydrotec instead of the Fir since this is a wood and paint boat. I dont feel like fiberglassing. The Hydrotec is a Merranti/Luan type marine plywood. Only the Fir marine plywood is USA made. Have my concerns with Indo produced plywood.

paladin
04-02-2009, 05:55 PM
Luan is not a wood that I would use in boatbuilding. It is a cheap tropical cedar with no rot resistance. It is normally used for strictly indoor non structural applications or for other cheap ply alternatives. Although it may be used in "Marine ply" applications I know of no facilities that make it using waterproof adhesives, reputable yards in Asia will not use it on boats for export.

ssor
04-02-2009, 08:07 PM
Luann plywood is not approved for use in wet areas in residential construction. It rots!!! I will use it for a dink but not for a keeper boat. I am always amused with warranties that promise free replacement of the material but no allowance for labor expense.

jclays
04-02-2009, 09:23 PM
This is marine plywood.....bs1088 rating

KylBak
04-02-2009, 09:37 PM
The quality of the Hydrotec brand meranti plywood is excellent. I'm currently building a 16' skiff using the hydrotec. Check out Bateau.com, they sell the three brands you mentioned (Joubert, Hydrotec, Aquatech) and could answer more specific questions.
Kyle

dmg
04-02-2009, 09:57 PM
Okoume plywood, specifically rated "Marine", should come from Europe, just to be safe. BS-1088 at a minimum, and Lloyds Certified BS-1088 if you can find it. Both are made with phenolic glue.

Okoume from Asian suppliers may meet the BS-1088 standard, or maybe not. Asian import Okoume is typically made with Urea glue. The face veneers from European suppliers should be 1.0 mm minimum thickness, where the Asian Okoume may be in the 0.3-0.5 mm. Asian Okoume, may, have core veneers of poplar, or maybe not.

Hydrotek, like I'm currently using, is European made, and is red Meranti throughout. I specificaly chose this because of a slightly better rot resistance, stronger against impact, more uniform coloring. The two drawbacks I've noticed already are, it's heavier (by 20% or so), and for contour forming, it's stiffer to work with.

You may verify any or all of this with L.L. Johnson Lumber. I purchase several thousand dollars a year worth of plywoods/lumber from these guys. They are quite good about any quality issues, and strive to make sure I get what I need.

Dave

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-02-2009, 11:05 PM
This is marine plywood.....bs1088 rating

The question is whether or not it, in fact, conforms to all the BS1088 requirements.
A BS 1088 stamp is not very expensive, but building plywood with quality workmanship is. The BS1088 standard is a laundry list of requirements. It spells out the species, quality, number and thickness of veneers, both face and interior. Type of glue. Allowable number and size of voids on the inner veneers. Ability to withstand 24 hours of continuous boiling.
As you can see there is plenty of places to cut corners during manufacture.

David G
04-03-2009, 12:08 AM
Another thing to watch for is plywood graded BS6566. It is a lesser spec. than the 1088, but not substantially less. Perfectly ok for most small boats. I was able to find some closeout 6566 from a reputable mfgr for one of my clients. Saved quite a bit on the plywood chunk of the materials list.


"Frugality without creativity is mere deprivation"

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
04-03-2009, 12:38 AM
I'm so glad I live near this place.


Some great information on marine plywood on this page of their website.


http://www.marine-plywood.us/

landlocked sailor
04-03-2009, 12:50 AM
Very few of the wood used in marine ply are durable; okoume will rot as readily as luan. What's important is the glue. If you can boil piece or run it through a few dishwasher cycles w/o delamination you're good. Luan will likely not do too well. Rick

Rational Root
04-03-2009, 01:57 AM
I have seen stuff with BS1088 stamped on it that _CLEARLY_ was not.

Buy from someone who targets the marine market.

This (in the UK) is where I get my ply. It's not cheap, but then I've put a lot of my time into building my (small) boat.

http://www.robbins.co.uk/marine/sheet_materials.asp

I bought some BS1088 marked stuff at a builders suppliers. 3 ply, and the 2 outside plies were thinner than paint. Bull **** 1088 perhaps ?

ShagRock
04-03-2009, 02:11 AM
Similar discussion here:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/materials/what-best-marine-plywood-23543.html

ccx2
04-03-2009, 05:59 AM
I just built with Joubert 1088 BS Okume 3/8 and with my limited experience with marine ply [first boat build] i would say it was beautiful plywood , 3/8 is 5ply, 1/2 is 7ply,i gave it a good look and not a void ANYWHERE , no knots anywhere, nice looking stuff if you wanted to put a clear finish on it.

jclays
04-03-2009, 09:00 AM
My bad on the hydrotec. It is not luan but Red Shorea. I guess its a merranti type. Claims to be made with the bs1088 standards but does not have the certification like the okume has. The Okume is made in France. The Hydrotec made in Indonesia. Both 3/8 5 ply the 1/2 is 7 ply. Im just building a skiff and dont need the Okume however I dont want the Hydrotec to de-lam as Ive read was happening with some Chinese made plywood. I know that the Fir marine ply is made in the good ol USA and is good stuff (except for the issue of checking). Thanks for the input guys.

neilm
04-03-2009, 11:19 AM
I was at the local builder's supply and noticed they have Douglas Fir Marine Plywood labeled AB. The end grain was full of voids. I thought the definition of marine plywood is no voids?

Neil

ccx2
04-03-2009, 12:01 PM
My bad on the hydrotec. It is not luan but Red Shorea. I guess its a merranti type. Claims to be made with the bs1088 standards but does not have the certification like the okume has. The Okume is made in France. The Hydrotec made in Indonesia. Both 3/8 5 ply the 1/2 is 7 ply. Im just building a skiff and dont need the Okume however I dont want the Hydrotec to de-lam as Ive read was happening with some Chinese made plywood. I know that the Fir marine ply is made in the good ol USA and is good stuff (except for the issue of checking). Thanks for the input guys.
If your "just building a skiff" i think you would be very happy in the end to have built out of Okume, its much lighter and wont have to be sheathed to keep it from checking as you should Fir from what i hear. The cost is double, bout 100.00 a sheat but as said its the important part of the boat and a small skiff is only about six or so sheats.........

David G
04-03-2009, 12:22 PM
I was at the local builder's supply and noticed they have Douglas Fir Marine Plywood labeled AB. The end grain was full of voids. I thought the definition of marine plywood is no voids?

Neil

Neil,

There is no single "definition" of marine plywood. Different agencies have different spec's. British Standard (as in BS6566, or BS1088) is a more rigorous spec. than the American Plywood Assn. (APA) spec which governs US manufactured softwood plywoods. Within the US govt., there are also several marine plywood spec's IIRC.

My personal bottom line is that I wouldn't use Marine A/B fir or larch plywood for much when it comes to boatbuilding. It's possible, and people have. But the only real reason is budget, and if budget is that much of a concern, I'd go with MDO.

gert
04-03-2009, 12:27 PM
Buy local, aka USA

A salesman happened by yesterday cause I was looking for some paintgrade waterproof plywood.

These are not "marine ply" but they are DF with a class 1 adhesive (waterproof) They both have a MDO top layer, the white one comes primed. These two are 1/2' thick and about $35 a sheet, from a mill in Olimpia WA. The 7 ply one was void free and has heavy resourcinal glue lines. The product is generaly used for outdoor signage.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3368/3409114105_a9c4800f7d.jpg

I wouldn't hesitate to use these above the waterline; the 7 ply one is much stiffer than the 1/2" Okume I used on Grey Seal and probably wouldn't have bent at the stern.

Why this isn't made in Canada is shamefull, considering the number of mills that have closed up here; I guess they just didn't want to compete by improving their product :confused:

lwolstenholme
04-13-2009, 03:44 PM
Indonesia & China are vastly different when it comes to plywood manufacturing. China has no raw materials that they grow or harvest other than Poplar (they are not allowed to use their other domestic species). They import logs from Indonesia, Malaysia, the United States, Africa, etc. and peel them in China for face veneers. These face veneers are almost always laid up on a Poplar core. They take advantage of their labor costs, but typically quality is not the best. However, its the least expensvie hardwood plywood on the market today.

Indonesia has an abundance of raw materials, and has been a long time plywood producer and exporter to the US market. Typically, Indonesia/Malaysian hardwood plywood is sold as Lauan. Its actually a mixture of species and not really the Lauan specie.

Hydrotek & Aquatek are marine plywoods produced in Indonesia that are specie specific. As mentioned in one of the previous posts, Red Meranti (Shorea). Each veneer, that comprises the panel is the same specie. This specie is chosen as it offers the best durability to weight ratio.

The European Okoume (Lloyds Cert.) marine plywood is probably the best option to use for marine applications when talking in terms of quality. The Hydrotek & Aquatek are both good cost saving options for marine applications, where one does not want to pay for the European Okoume. Douglas Fir (A/B Marine) produced in the US, is yet another good option and about the same price as the Hydrotek & Aquatek.

Chinese plywoods, regular BBCC (furniture grade) Lauan, or Brazilian imports just dont seem to be options worth considering if someone really wants a "marine" grade panel.

bloggs68
04-13-2009, 06:52 PM
Has anyone has found Australian made marine ply in the US. The Australian Hoop Pine marine ply is the "rolls royce" of marine ply and is just beautiful to work with. It is slightly heavier than some of the lightweight slash core BS1088 rubbish but the trade off is worth it.

With the value of the Aussie dollar to the US surely someone over there could bring it in????

see http://www.australply.com.au/pr_marine.html

AD

kulas44
04-13-2009, 09:28 PM
The Olympic MDO is VERY hard to beat for the money. I have various test peices with goop and glue and sealants on them, some with paint or epoxy and a few with different glued on surfaces, like PVC, Trex, strip teak, etc. Some have been laying around in the gravel over 2 years with no failure of the MDO whatsoever. The PVC siding glued to MDO with PL roof and flashing urethane seems to be imperviuos to the elements. Good stuff.

Tomcat
04-13-2009, 10:25 PM
At my local price points the 1088 is about twice the price of the 6566. Either is absolutely fine under glass, but the 6566 has non-continuous cores that could give trouble if the wood was used without sheathing in a boat stored out of doors or left in the water. So basically I can afford to glass a boat in 6566 or even a lesser product, for what it would cost me to buy 1088 in thicknesses above 1/8". Maintenance is dramatically less on a glassed boat when competently finished. That's just the way it has been for me. I don't argue with those who can get away with using ply without any glass on it, that is how the marine grade panels were designed to be used. Once it gets sheathed the panels don't need to be marine grade. Badly sheathed the ply would benefit from being made of stainless.

I have used a lot of luan to bag my own ply. I just had a stack of it at one time, and some rather cheap epoxy. I lost sleep for year that the cores would separate in the cheap luan. Nothing bad happened, though luan rots easily if not properly detailed. Check to see if the gluelines are black/dark purple. Mine weren't and easily passed boil tests, or long term immersion tests. Boiling and pry apart tests it wouldn't pass. Still with encapsulation the material never failed even in a few areas that I forgot to finish and that rotted. The ply failed, but not through delamination.

jclays
04-13-2009, 11:42 PM
In regards to actually rotting which of the Marine plys is more resistant? Again Im talking painted not sheathed in glass cloth and epoxy.

David G
04-13-2009, 11:54 PM
Just by species, douglas fir would be in the mix. In practice, AB Marine doug fir has too many voids to hold up well. MDO is much better constructed. In practice the most rot-resistant would probably be a BS1088 Meranti.

But this sort of decision-making is not a multiple choice question. It's a matrix. You have to include various factors: rot-resistance; price; weight; beauty; availability; whether it'll conform to the bends in your boat; etc.

Then you have to weight the factors, depending upon what's important to you for this project.

Then, when the analysis is done, you have to stand back and give it the Smell Test.


"Good plans shape good decisions...<and> make elusive dreams come true" -- Lester R. Bittell

almeyer
04-14-2009, 04:40 PM
I used 6mm hydrotec in the construction of my Penobscot 14 four years ago. Epoxy sealed inside and out per designer's recommendations, painted outside, bright finished inside. No fiberglass. Last fall the boat rode out Hurricane Ike with relatively little damage to the hull, considering what it went through. In a couple of weeks I'll relaunch. I also used hydrotec to build my grandson's Jolly Rocker from Jordan Wood Boats, which I converted to glued lapstrake. The rocker will never see water, so rot wasn't an issue, but luan wouldn't take the bends required of the strakes without snapping. I've no complaints with hydrotec.
Al