Jibs and winches question.

[Dale H]

So how big does a jib have to be before a winch is needed for recreational sailing?

Though the plans show winches on the Eun Mara, I'm sure I've sheeted in similar sized sails by hand with just a fairlead/camcleat arrangement in the past.

What's the usual practice?

Dale

[Venchka]

Do the winches have to be installed before you have a chance to sail the boat and find out for sure if you need winches? If you can "wait and see", that might be the best solution.

How big is the jib? Sq. ft.? That would help with answers.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Dan McCosh]

I suppose the answer is what "need" means. The NY 32 was originally built without jib winches per se, with over 1,000 sq. ft. in the working rig, and about a 350 sq. ft. jib. There were two running backstay winches, and the lee winch was used sometimes for trimming. The working jib used a block and tackle, but the practice seemed to have been to trim the jib while luffing, before the tack was completed. Trimming under sailing load is another story. The current jib winches are 2-speed, with 8 ins. drum diameters, and they still can be tough to crank. I seem to remember the old, huge racing sloops also lacked winches, instead using 14-man crews hauling on block and tackle.

[High C]

I used to crew on a 57' wooden gaff rigged sloop in a few races in the Gulf. NO WINCHES! 12 man crew, it took 4 men sitting on the deck, pulling on a jib sheet to trim it. :eek:

[High C]

I used to crew on a 57' wooden gaff rigged sloop in a few races in the Gulf. NO WINCHES! 12 man crew, it took 4 men sitting on the deck, pulling on a jib sheet to trim it. :eek:

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Dan McCosh:
...using 14-man crews hauling on block and tackle.Anybody want to write to Iain and ask if that will work on Eun Mara? :D

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimConlin]

There's a winch selection chart at the Harken site (http://www.harken.com/charts/winchusechart.php) .
It's a starting point for an answer. There are many factors which might nudge your estimate up or down.
Are you young and strong or is everyone on board weak?
Is the rig and sails modern high-tech stuff that gets sheeted to high C or floppy and baggy?
Do you sail in awful weather or pick only gentle days?
Do you intend to race ot just day-sail?
Etc.

Shop around. These are often deeply discounted.

h

[Dale H]

Thanks for all the replies.

I don't have the plans in front of me but I think the jib is no more than about 70 square feet, I'll double check the number at home tonight. The winch placement is on a sort of pedestal built up on the outside of the cockpit coaming on each side.

I suppose I could build these and first try them with just a cleat/fairlead placed on top. I was just wondering what the usual practice was.

Dale

[Hwyl]

The short answer: I don't think so.

Some longer answers, If you do go with a winch that boat cries out for a "bottom action" one. Should be available used and cheap (ebay?) I think someone in NZ still makes them. They are great when you just want to "wind that last bit home". The NZ ones are Murray Winches. Here is one from a UK stockist

http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/images_products/150.jpg

http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/asp/product.asp?product=150&ph=cat

second long anwer: "Ratchet blocks", so if you have a scenario where your fair and nubile crew can pull the jib 90% of the way home, and hold it there with the ratchet. All ratchet blocks I've seen look "high tech". You might want to consider some wood trim (leaving room for the "switch".

third. Cam cleat (not clam) and some kind of purchase arrangement in the cockpit, either a winch on a "barney post" or on the back cockpit coaming, that can also be used for the main and when you are using the mizzen as a crane (man o/board, outboard, cases of beer whatever) So the winch can be used to haul the jib those extra few inches and then released--be carefull though, if it's too tight, it'll be hard to release from the cam cleat. I should have added that if you wanted to be "oh so traditional" you could use a handy billy here instead of the winch. You use a kind of rolling hitch around the sheet (it might be called a Prussic knot)

[Bob Smalser]

A single winch on cabin top or CB case has a whole lot of uses....whether the jib needs it or not.

You can find nice little bronze ones of Ebay inexpensively, occasionally....these were about 40 bucks:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3075025/49963354.jpg

[Dale H]

Well, checked the plan, a whopping 57 square feet. Seems like she shouldn't need them then?

Dale

[Gary Bergman]

Like all the other 'cute' answers, I'm 72' with squares, 46 lines on my mainmast, and no winches..belay that.......

[Brian Palmer]

Our boat has a 45 sq ft jib with no winches. The last time out my 40 lb 6 year old tended the sheets in a fair (but not strong) breeze. I had to remind him not to sheet it in too tight.

-- Brian

[George.]

For 57 or 70 square feet you could do without winches.

Dalia has two 25 square meter (about 250 square feet) headsails. I tack her by myself. The jib has winches, and when it is blowing force 5 or more I need them. The jib topsail has none, and we tend to take it down past force five. Recently I installed a block on the port sheet, giving me a 2:1 advantage, because it does get a bit heavy to sheet in when beating near force 5. But even without it I could manage by bearing up a bit before sweating in the last foot or so. In lighter airs it is cake.

PS: you do need proper technique to sheet in a big jib. Hold it with a half-turn around the cleat, grab it with the other hand about 3 feet from the cleat, arm straight, and pull back using your legs. Then slowly ease it back while simultaneously taking up the slack around the cleat. I don't know if you can picture it (Ian? Bob? help in describing...), but it works much better than pulling like a madman with both hands and then trying to cleat it off as your hernia bursts...

PSS: well-place cleats and a place to brace your feet help immensely...