Atlantics in 'Sailing World'!

[bamamick]

Great article and great photography. Every time I get a hair's breath from cancelling my subscription to Sailing World they come out with one thing that makes me want to stick around. This article does that. I just can not get enough of the full-keel classics out racing.

I have seen Atlantics on the hard in Manset close to the Hinckley yard, but never in the water. I would love to give it a try. I wonder how the four-person crew thing works out, and is it necessary to sail the boat? Looks like they use jibs only (and not gennys). Interesting.

Last time I looked Cape Cod Shipbuilding was doing Atlantics with a list of around $60K. All things considered that is a pretty darn good price, though no doubt that is the base boat and little else.

Mickey Lake

[TimH]

I thought you were talking about the new Schooner Atlantic.

[rbgarr]

I think the four person crew is to hold the boats down in heavy air. Shields carry that number for racing also which seems crowded: helm, traveller, main, jib/other adjustments/bowman?

If both classes had roller jibs, I think they could carry three and do okay (rolling and unrolling takes one less pair of hands than raising, dropping on the downwind legs). They may do that in light weather. I don't really know. The only time I raced on one (in Newport) we had five. Way crowded.

My O only.

[bamamick]

www.capecodshipbuilding.com/site/atlanticonedesign.htm

The 'chute launcher and the roller furling make it possible to sail and even race a Dragon with two people. I have seen it done several times. Don't know why it wouldn't work on any of these classes if it works on the Dragon.

Mickey Lake

[michigangeorge]

A century ago (sure seems like it) when I raced Shields in Newport three was the crew and no furlers in site. It required some agility on the foredeck which I never possessed which, in turn, taught me helmsmanship which made my future racing so enjoyable over the years. That said, I think the rollers would be a big improvement.

[Bill Fisher]

I sailed the Atlantics for a few years (in the mid 80s) out of Cedar Point YC in Connecticut. Wonderful boat to sail but a very expensive day sailor despite the rather reasonable cost of a new boat.

Starling Burgess design, 1930s if I remember correctly.

Crew of four is a little too much in light air but very appreciated in anything over 15kns. I loved the large main and small jib rig (I never get it straight, is that high or low aspect?) and we carried a rather modest spinnaker. My boat often sailed with three but rarely performed very well.

There is very little you can change if you are going to race in class association sanctioned races. The whole point is to keep the boats as basic as possible. It was my understanding that the only reason they went to fiberglass was to reduce operation expenses. No electronics.

[bamamick]

Bill, it's a high aspect rig. Dragons are very similiar as far as electronics go. You are allowed a digital compass and a bilge pump operated off of a 12 volt battery. Can't really think of anything else you'd need, though.

Thanks for the stories about Atlantic sailing. The reason that I asked about the four person crew is that I dislike an overcrowded boat. The Dragon class has made it legal to sail with four and Petticrows in the UK builds a boat with a barney post rather than a full width center-cockpit traveler to accomodate a four person crew (I think that there are a few women skippers in Europe using this configuration.

Mickey Lake

[Thad]

High aspect but fractional. The Atlantic was designed by Burgess in 1928. One built at City Island which sailed Long Island Sound in 1928. They got orders for 88 boats (I believe) and ordered 99 boats from Abeking and Rassmussen. The original design shows a helm thwart and padded cockpit seats with all sheets accessible from the helm as well as a self-tending club jib, making for comfortable daysailing possibility. It also had heftier hull timbers and cedar planking. The construction plan was modified for A&R's mass production with Khaya planking (the tight planking broke many timbers on all the boats almost immediately), and the sheeting arrangements were moved forward leaving only the main sheet handling to the afterguard. With new or sistered ribs and deck sweeping jibs allowed, the large fleet made for exciting racing in this slippery boat. After WWII the fleet was looking for new hulls to rebuild the fleet. A&R gave a price of $3000/ but the fleet went with Cape Cod's glass hull proposal, starting off with hulls to which the old deadwood and ballast were bolted. Fleets are still active from Niantic to Cedar Point in Long Island Sound and in Blue Hill, Maine. Twenty years ago there was one woody left at Niantic. Mystic has one that came from Blue Hill and was rebuilt by Frank Day maybe 30 years ago. There was one here until a few years ago that now belongs to the Blue Hill group and may be at the Brooklin Boat Yard. I have a scientist friend who said he had worked at a lab on Long Island that had two wood Atlantics.

[Bill Fisher]

Mickey,

High aspect, that's it. All I know is it had a honking great big main that could be a brute to jibe in anything over 15 knts. 4 crew were doable if the jib winches were located far enough forward and, as I said (and someone else alluded to), when it began to blow you needed the weight to keep the boat in the water. Also, Atlantic boats have very big cockpits, probably half the deck length is cockpit.


Thad,

I forgot to mention about the fractional rig. To this day I still can't read a genny, still pretty good at reading a jib. Loved the main. When I was sailing the sails were cut real full at the luft, with the fast boats wrinkled about 8 ft up the mast. There was something, for me, almost transcendental (a word you'll never hear from me any other time) about staring up at that vast white expanse and watching the telltales stream (which was my job, mainsheet trim).

Clear blue Fall days and 12 knts of breeze is beyond my wit to properly describe.

As you can probably tell, I have very fond memories of that boat and the fleet that it sailed in.


Bill.

[bamamick]

Bill, more good stuff. I think that I know exactly how you feel about sailing the Atlantic. I have spent many thousands of words on this forum talking about sailing Finns and Dragons and other kinds of boats, but I promise that in my experience there is NOTHING that matches sailing a Star in about 12 knots of breeze upwind. It is just a feeling that you can not describe. Has nothing to do with speed. It just feels absolutely RIGHT like nothing else I have ever felt. I miss it. The good news is that we are trying to get enough boats together this year to do three race weekends. If we don't then we will lose our fleet charter, and having had a fleet since 1932 that is pretty much unthinkable.

Mickey Lake

[Thad]

Competitors in the local wooden boat race called the Atlantic "the rocket ship".

[bamamick]

How fast are they? USSA doesn't list them having a PY number. The Dragon is relatively slow for it's size because of it's light air performance and is listed at 89.5 for an average number. The 210 is listed at 87.3 and the Shields is listed at a pretty quick 84.9 (the Star is listed at 83.1 or almost the same as the baseline number).

Is an Atlantic as fast as a Shields? She'd be quite a bit ahead of her time if that's the case.

Mickey Lake

[Thad]

Length 30', LWL 21.5, beam 6.5, beam at lwl 6, disp 7124#. Low and wide counter extending almost 4', giving rapid increase of wl with heel. Sailing in a gale, full length wl running. Wild. Luffing away power on the wind. In a fine moderate day, just slippery with heel and go. Others will have to give you your numbers if they have them. The one that was here went to St Augustine to race PHRF, won one race on rating, took second with revised rating, then was protested out for lack of self bailing, etc. Came back North in disgust.
Fun looking at those lines and details again. I like the original design but it is fun to see the A&R procedure in their construction details.

[bamamick]

And that's why you don't try and sail PHRF in a boat like mine. I sail only Portsmouth around here and am lucky that we almost always have a PY class at our big boat races.

One of my good friends is a rating guru for PHRF on the Gulf Coast. He said to me 'well Mick, we'll give you a provisional rating based on your PY number, and then we will hit you for 3 seconds because you don't have lifelines, 3 seconds because you don't have a head, 3 seconds because you don't have a motor', and etc. No thanks. I don't really care about the trophies anyway, I just like to sail in company, but no one likes being taken advantage of.

Mickey Lake

[rbgarr]

Mick,

The Atlantic (v. Shields) has 25 more sq.ft. of sail area, a little less displacement and a bit longer WL. The jib is smaller and main bigger but my guess is that the Shields class is more competitive and thus the sailors may have found techiques that enable them to sail the boats faster much of the time. I don't include myself in that category.

[bamamick]

Dave, so you think that the hull speed of both may be comparable? Regardless, if they are even in the ballpark that would make for a pretty fast hull. I guess that Mr. Burgess knew a thing or two?

Mickey Lake

[rbgarr]

I think his Nina was one of the faster racing schooners of her size. I've read that she was regarded as almost a cutter rig in profile.

http://i44.tinypic.com/97ur5x.jpg

[Bill Fisher]

Sorry guys, I don't know her speed.

And it didn't really matter as we only raced among ourselves, I love class racing.

I was not an owner but there is probably someone out there who knows how fast they'll go.

I'm a bit surprised at the "Rocket" label though Thad, plenty of other boats would pass us (we shared the race course with many other classes, including Stars who would eat us alive, except when the wind was up.).

One year I sailed the Nationals at Niantic in 25+ ktns winds which is just survival. The boats, as we were rigged, are ideal in the 10 to 15 ktn range (but aren't most!). I had no great desire to sail in anything over 15 knts.

Here's a memorable day. 15 knts out the SW, 6 to 10 ft seas but long slow rollers (which I have never see before or since). Reaching with the wind just aft of beam, main out, spinnicker pulling hard and SURFING down the waves. I swear half the boat was hanging in the air (it wasn't of course, it would have broken the hull but I have never surfed a keel boat).

Bill

[Scott Rosen]

Bill --

I used to sail Thistles out of CPYC and crewed on wood and 'glass Atlantics a couple of times.

My impressions -- Atlantics are beautiful boats to watch. They started before the Thistles, so we always got to see the starts. But they're more fun to watch than to sail. After sailing a Thistle with a crew of three, an Atlantic with crew of four is a bit sedate . . .

[Oldsalt]

Old-timers tell me the 27'6" Herreshoff S-Boat is faster than an Atlantic.

Here is a link to a story about last summer's Atlantic Nationals in Blue Hill, Maine, with a nice gallery of photos.

http://tinyurl.com/caqzkb

[rbgarr]

Nice slideshow!

[Bill Fisher]

Scott,
LOL, no one wanted me on the Thistles, I was too big. Good rail meat with big muscles for the main trim on Atlantics though. And no doubt, the Atlantics were not big excitement (unless it was blowing). They were (are) just my style though. Wood Atlantic? Your showing your age :).

Stars were worse, I can't bend enough and I would have lost my head to the boom. :)
I would have liked to try a Lightning, planning looked fun!

Mickey,
I don't think the Atlantic was know so much for her speed as for her handling. Very sweet! Never met anyone that didn’t love the helm (as long as the boat was set up properly). My captain use to show off by dropping the helm and steering the boat with the sails (not racing of course).

[rbgarr]

How fast are they? USSA doesn't list them having a PY number. The Dragon is relatively slow for it's size because of it's light air performance and is listed at 89.5 for an average number. The 210 is listed at 87.3 and the Shields is listed at a pretty quick 84.9 (the Star is listed at 83.1 or almost the same as the baseline number).

Is an Atlantic as fast as a Shields? She'd be quite a bit ahead of her time if that's the case.

Mickey Lake


An interesting comparison of the Shields and Atlantic is detailed here: http://tinyurl.com/c73ycm

[rbgarr]

How fast are they? USSA doesn't list them having a PY number. The Dragon is relatively slow for it's size because of it's light air performance and is listed at 89.5 for an average number. The 210 is listed at 87.3 and the Shields is listed at a pretty quick 84.9 (the Star is listed at 83.1 or almost the same as the baseline number).

Is an Atlantic as fast as a Shields? She'd be quite a bit ahead of her time if that's the case.

Mickey Lake


Interesting comparisons of the Shields, Atlantic and others are detailed here (from a blog linked to on another thread http://knockaboutsloops.blogspot.com/search/label/Bolero%20Design ):

Hull characteristics http://tinyurl.com/c73ycm
Sail plan characteristics http://tinyurl.com/c46owb