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High Altitude
03-23-2009, 11:04 PM
I was thinking about building something bigger but once I think about my available resources, time to sail etc...... I think a small 14-16' pocket cruiser would be a better fit. I have been looking at these type of plans in S&G. What do you guys think about these sailboats?



Bateau AD14/16

http://www.bateau.com/studyplans/AD16_study.htm?prod=AD16


http://gallery.bateau2.com/albums/userpics/11943/LakeHavasu_DSC_0068.JPG

Modern design but lots of room.

Paul Fisher has a bunch of designs. Some of the ones that I like.
http://www.selway-fisher.com/PCup16.htm

16' SandGrouse
http://www.selway-fisher.com/SandGroused1.gif

Heron 14

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Heron14p1.jpg

Tideway 14
I really like the looks of it but for a coastal sailboat I am not sure how it would perform.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Tideway14d1.gif


The Goshawk is also nice.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Goshawkd1.gif

Devlin's Nancy China or CLC's pocketship would work.

http://www.devlinboat.com/images/nancyschina1.gif



I know I am all over the map but there are so many nice designs it
isn't easy picking just one.

I am looking for a basic coastal sailboat with a small cabin to get out of the weather if need be, stay out over night every now and then (sitting headroom would be nice), keep stuff dry etc........

Any input, experiences, I have the plans, built that boat etc............... would be most appreciated.

Picking one plan is probably the hardest part of the process. :-)

Thorne
03-23-2009, 11:08 PM
What coast? Most of the above boats are too small for many coastal sailing areas....

Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )
03-23-2009, 11:10 PM
God damn that Bateau AD14/16 is hard on the eyes, yuck.

High Altitude
03-23-2009, 11:12 PM
What coast? Most of the above boats are too small for many coastal sailing areas....

Southern California but I wouldn't mind trailering it out to Florida (I have family etc....)

Actually: anywhere along the lower half of the country.


What would you suggest then?

Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )
03-23-2009, 11:15 PM
There is really only one that just makes my heart leap

Ian Oughtred's Eun mara

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/designers/oughtred/eunmara1.jpg

stumpbumper
03-23-2009, 11:40 PM
This is my favorite:

http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/sailboats/CLC-POCKETSHIP.html

mcdenny
03-24-2009, 07:00 AM
I like the new CLC pocketship too. Looks really well thought out.

Just my $0.02 but it seems in a boat this size you give up a lot of cockpit space and increase weight, cost & complexity for probably seldom used shelter. It's your boat, though.

Wooden Boat Fittings
03-24-2009, 07:26 AM
.
I've seen a young middle-aged couple use a fourteen-foot dinghy-with-a-lid as a pocket cruiser. (I think it was a TS14.) But to me a "pocket cruiser" is a live-aboard , no matter how small, with amenities that include berths, a galley, chart table, and head. My YM 3-Tonner (LWL 17') fitted the bill, but I'm afraid I can't imagine anything much smaller doing so.

Of the vessels pictured so far, the CLC Pocketship looks the most suitable, but I'd still consider it too cramped internally (whatever their video might purport to show.)

Mike

rbgarr
03-24-2009, 07:41 AM
(I have family etc....)

You may already know this but if your family doesn't, rent or borrow a Chevy Suburban or something like that. Spend the weekend with your family sleeping, cooking, etc. in it with all the gear you need. That's about the amount of space you'd have on a boat the size you are considering.

AstoriaDave
03-24-2009, 07:53 AM
Southern California but I wouldn't mind trailering it out to Florida (I have family etc....) Actually: anywhere along the lower half of the country. What would you suggest then?I'm not a sailor, but wonder if any of those are meaty enough for work along any shoreline except one heavily broken up with islands and having numerous protected areas. I have a hard time imagining it running from LA down to San Diego, for example. However, it would be fun inside Barkley Sound or among some of the island groups in Maine.

VikingSailor
03-24-2009, 08:32 AM
I have owned and sailed a (gasp!) glass pocket cruiser, 17 foot long, for many years, and for minimal camp / cruising, it is fine. I am 6' 3", so there is barely sitting headroom, but I usually end up sleeping out in the cockpit anyway many nights on the boat....it has a swing keel, is fast and fun to sail, has 3 different jibs for different wind conditions, and even a spinnaker for light airs......

I have cruised extensively on the open waters of the Great Lakes with this boat, and it works out fine as a "pocket cruiser"......small and simple is good!

There are so many different and effective small boat designs out there, that would fit the bill..........it all comes down to what catches your eye, captures your imagination, and what you can afford to build........have you considered the Bolger Micro and variants?

Or, for something really seaworty and radical, check this out;
www.macnaughtongroup.com/farthing (http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/farthing)

Very cool capable blue water vessel, only 15 ft long!! But probably too heavy and deep in the keel for what you describe!

Paul Pless
03-24-2009, 09:07 AM
An American friend of DowntheCreeek and I cruised down the Hudson singlehanded in a Thistle; she is my age, she is an Episcopalian priest and she is sadly very far from fit and well. If she can do it, you can.Have I missed a thread on this cruise? I'd love to hear of the experience.

Thorne
03-24-2009, 09:13 AM
Yabut -- if you know the Southern CA coastline, you know it is basically all offshore sailing on a lee shore, with few if any protected waters.

I really wouldn't venture out there (unaccompanied by another larger boat) in anything less than a 22' Catalina with a reliable outboard.

Why not build something open and fun for trailering to the many lakes and other waterways in CA and elsewhere? Welsford's Navigator and Pathfinder boats are well-regarded, as is Storer's Goat Island Skiff.

If you want to sail offshore either rent or buy a fiberglass boat -- but I suspect you'll find it isn't a lot of fun being in a small boat out there offshore.

wtarzia
03-24-2009, 10:05 AM
How about something like the EC22 (from the builders of the Core Sound boats)? ~700 pounds, 22 feet long, 7 feet wide, shallow V bottom, ketch rig. It has a small cabin good enough for sleeping in (sitting headroom). It is pretty fast. Big cockpit with watertight chambers. Designed for coastal sailing. The potential problem with it is that it is shoal draft, not self-righting. A fine coastal cruiser might also be the 20 foot Core Sound with the aforementioned tent. See also the fine boats at Swallow Boats. They have boats that look a little like the EC22 and Core Sound series, but offer waterballast. They also come as kits (some of them do). The double-enders they carry are also fine -- 17 and 19 footer, ketch rigs, safe design, in the 19 footer lots of room for camping under tent. --Wade

wtarzia
03-24-2009, 10:07 AM
PS -- the Swallow Boats boats also come with good provision for outboard motors to allow for aforemtentioned Californian lee-shores. -- Wade

James McMullen
03-24-2009, 11:05 AM
I think ACB is absolutely right. In a little bitty pocket cruiser you end up with both a little tiny cabin and a little tiny cockpit, neether of which are particularly comfortable or useful. I played around with one of these for a couple of years, (a Swallow 16) before I realized that this type of boat is too big and heavy to make for easy trailering, but too small to actually be comfortable sailing or sleeping.

I'm now in the position to be able to afford a proper cruising sailboat I keep at a marina, but I also have a big, safe, comfortable and fast open boat that is ever so trailerable for taking on the road. An open boat is ALL cockpit--plenty of room to take your friends, and can be light enough to haul up on the beach by yourself, launch at sandy beach ramps, needs only oars or perhaps a small, economical outboard, and is a delight to sail. I just bring along camping gear if I'm going to overnight in her.

The extra weight and windage and higher center of gravity in a pocket cruiser with a cabin means that they're never as interesting and sprightly as a sailboat as a boat without all that tophamper. You'll need to get up to around 20' before you'll have a boat big enough to have both a useful cabin and a useful cockpit for daysailing--and then it's still going to be much harder to trailer than a light boat.

Kaa
03-24-2009, 11:20 AM
I would agree with that. I have a 20' pocket cruiser and it's just barely large enough to have both a cockpit and a cabin worthy of the name. Boats noticeable smaller than this, I think, have no business trying to shoehorn in both. Either have a basically open boat with, maybe, a cuddy, or have an essentially cockpit-less boat like Matt Layden's microcruisers.

Kaa

willmarsh3
03-24-2009, 12:06 PM
ACB's comments about the cabin seem to make a lot of sense. One possible compromise between an open boat and one with a cabin is one with a small cabin like this William Garden Eel. The cabin top is hinged in the front so it can be flipped up and out of the way for easy access but will keep stuff dry down below when it rains. Since it has a low profile it should minimize the effects of windage and weight.

http://www.willmarsh3.net/wg/web_eel1.jpg

Plus this boat like the Eun Na Mara Joe posted above is a real treat to the eye IMHO.

JimD
03-24-2009, 12:25 PM
(sitting headroom would be nice),

My criteria would be sitting headroom above the settees, self bailing cockpit, considerable ballast and if it has a centerboard it stays out of the cabin, and the longest waterline you can manage. I disagree with those who say you can't have a decent pocket cruiser in the shorter range. You can, but they will be slow. I see you don't have Grey Swan on your list at 16'

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Gswan16d1.gif

or better yet Evening Swan:

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Eswan17p6.jpg

Evening Swan would be my choice if you have room for 17.5 feet.

kenjamin
03-24-2009, 12:31 PM
First please let me say that I have no experience with pocket cruisers but there was an article about the No Frills 15 in Small Craft Advisor. The author and builder of the boat said that what he liked about the boat was the extra high combing of this particular design. He said it offered protection from the elements that typically was not available on boats of this size and weight. From this picture, I can see what he is talking about. His crew is normally he and his daughter and from what he said, they slept comfortably in the cabin.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/NoFrills15.jpg

From a structural standpoint, the cabin also adds to the egg shape of this boat and like an egg, I bet it's pretty strong for its weight. This boat does have a flat bottom so it's not exactly egg shaped but it's kind of headed in that direction. The flat bottom may help with the comfort level when it is anchored. Every boat is a compromise. It's just a question of finding the right set of compromises that suit you best. If you are strapped for funds, this is a very cost effective use of plywood and plans are only $40. At least they were when I bought them about a year ago.

keyhavenpotterer
03-24-2009, 02:33 PM
Tit Willow fits the bill

http://strathkanchris.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/beale-07-06-08-147.jpg

Chip-skiff
03-24-2009, 02:51 PM
Definitely spend a few nights in a craft of this sort (low cabin, no head), anchored out someplace, before starting a build.

There's probably a West Wight Potter, or the like, available for a trial.

The notion's appealing, of course. We had a Hartley 14— rather like camping out in a noisy, tipsy wood tent with no decent place to **** (unless you like balancing over a bucket in a chop).

For the SoCal coast, which is short on sheltered waters, I'd likely go with a fun daysailer, or take the leap to a genuine cruiser with a stand-up cabin and head.

paladin
03-24-2009, 02:56 PM
Check out the great pelican, cheap to build, easy to handle, and they have cruised to Hawaii with a 2 person crew.....

willmarsh3
03-24-2009, 05:53 PM
Is this the Great Pelican you are referring to?

http://www.dngoodchild.com/5469.htm

Thorne
03-24-2009, 06:23 PM
Same as this one -
http://www.platypusboats.com/i//gp_sailing.jpg
http://www.platypusboats.com/pelicans.html

David G
03-24-2009, 06:36 PM
Or, like this one built by Ol' Coot, Lou Broschetti (photo by John Kohnen)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3126/2459239066_e215574e6d.jpg?v=0




Same one - in the San Juans (photo by Case Turner)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3243/2417227702_be7537e502.jpg?v=0


I've been abooard her. Amazingly roomy below.

BarnacleGrim
03-24-2009, 06:54 PM
Does it have to be ramp-launched? If not I'd strongly consider John Welsford's Swaggie (http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/swaggie/index.htm) or Fafnir (http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/fafnir/index.htm). Then you wouldn't be so limited in terms of protected waters.

http://www.swaggie-uruguay.com.uy/img/90.jpg

High Altitude
03-24-2009, 07:46 PM
You may already know this but if your family doesn't, rent or borrow a Chevy Suburban or something like that. Spend the weekend with your family sleeping, cooking, etc. in it with all the gear you need. That's about the amount of space you'd have on a boat the size you are considering.

When I said I have family I ment in the sense that I would go visit and then sail while I was visiting them. The boat only needs to be big enough for 2 people.

High Altitude
03-24-2009, 07:57 PM
It looks like we are thinking the same.

Your right, the sailing is going to be slow but that is what you have to give up. I definitely would want a small 2hp outboard for just in case situations.

Greyswan is a little more complicated to build compared to most of his other pure S&G designs. It is a nice design though.

I also like the Goshawk. It is very similar to the Pelican.

The Heron 14 is on the smaller side but for one or two people it would work. Self Bailing cockpit, sitting room above the settee etc... The Heron 14 is pretty much a lighter duty Tideway 14.




My criteria would be sitting headroom above the settees, self bailing cockpit, considerable ballast and if it has a centerboard it stays out of the cabin, and the longest waterline you can manage. I disagree with those who say you can't have a decent pocket cruiser in the shorter range. You can, but they will be slow. I see you don't have Grey Swan on your list at 16'

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Gswan16d1.gif

or better yet Evening Swan:

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Eswan17p6.jpg

Evening Swan would be my choice if you have room for 17.5 feet.

High Altitude
03-24-2009, 08:03 PM
I'm not a sailor, but wonder if any of those are meaty enough for work along any shoreline except one heavily broken up with islands and having numerous protected areas. I have a hard time imagining it running from LA down to San Diego, for example. However, it would be fun inside Barkley Sound or among some of the island groups in Maine.

The more I research the Socal coast it does appear that for this type of sailboat there are much better places to go.

High Altitude
03-24-2009, 08:12 PM
Fantastic design but it is a huge boat. Displacement is around 3500-4000lbs.





Does it have to be ramp-launched? If not I'd strongly consider John Welsford's Swaggie (http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/swaggie/index.htm) or Fafnir (http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/fafnir/index.htm). Then you wouldn't be so limited in terms of protected waters.

http://www.swaggie-uruguay.com.uy/img/90.jpg

Woxbox
03-24-2009, 08:38 PM
OK, I have cruised extensively in a boat of this type, and I here and now disagree with the naysayers. They work great.

1: Safety -- most of these designs are self rescuing and many are self-righting. Try that in an open boat.

2: Comfort -- You have a dry cabin and dry gear, always. Also, a dry bed.

3: Comfort -- Lots of room to take along a big cooler, extra clothing, etc.

4: Performance -- They are not necessarily slugs, and the good ones will keep going when the open boats are running for shelter (if they can find it.) In light air, they'll keep up with bigger, heavier boats. I'd recommend a 4 or 5 hp outboard. A 2 will push it, a bigger one will push it quietly.

5: Small is good -- compared to bigger boats, you can get to far-away places to sail very easily. Most boats in this class can be towed by a small pickup or SUV with a V6 engine.

6: Private head. (Ask the wife/girlfriend how important that is.)

7: You can always get out of the weather, even under way.

Other advice -- Look for a cockpit that is long enough to sleep in -- it can be tented over for hot weather or you can always use the cabin for cooking, storage and warm spot for a nap.

One other point -- mock up the interior of any boat with cardboard or cheap ply before deciding to make sure you understand just how much room there is inside. It varies more than you'd guess.

willmarsh3
03-24-2009, 08:51 PM
Another favorite of mine is the Devlin Winter Wren

http://www.devlinboat.com/winterwren.htm

Apparently he designed this for rougher waters such as the Puget Sound. The only down side is that the keel version is more difficult to trailer or launch. But it should be ok with a suitably deep boat ramp and a trailer extender.

High Altitude
03-24-2009, 08:53 PM
OK, I have cruised extensively in a boat of this type, and I here and now disagree with the naysayers. They work great.


One other point -- mock up the interior of any boat with cardboard or cheap ply before deciding to make sure you understand just how much room there is inside. It varies more than you'd guess.

Great post. I really like your suggestion of mocking up the interior. I was planning on building a model but will also mock up the interior.

Thanks

High Altitude
03-24-2009, 08:55 PM
A good design. Here is one built by Bernie Harberts after crossing the gulf stream to the Bahamas. It is also available in a shallow draft version with a dagger board.

http://www.riverearth.com/eastcoast/GARAGESAILSAILING450.jpg


Another favorite of mine is the Devlin Winter Wren

http://www.devlinboat.com/winterwren.htm

Apparently he designed this for rougher waters such as the Puget Sound. The only down side is that the keel version is more difficult to trailer or launch. But it should be ok with a suitably deep boat ramp and a trailer extender.

Rigadog
03-24-2009, 09:21 PM
What coast? Most of the above boats are too small for many coastal sailing areas....

Please have a look at the Microcrusing thread. A 15 footer across the Gulfstream to the Bahamas for several extended trips. Size isn't everything.

paladin
03-24-2009, 09:40 PM
They make an 18 foot version of the Pelican, and I redrew the design for #3 son to 19 feet and increased the beam to 8'4" and added a V bottom to increase the displacement a little and make it more seaworthy...and added 500 pounds of ballast. He hasn't totally finished it yet but the hull sails as an open boat and he seems to be having a helluva time with it....the extra space was to make a small "potty room" against the aft transom, then the cockpit and a lotta boat to sit in during bad weather....

Bob Smalser
03-24-2009, 10:09 PM
OK, I have cruised extensively in a boat of this type, and I here and now disagree with the naysayers. They work great....



http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3075025/59367496.jpg

I, too have to chuckle at these pocket cruiser threads. The boats keep getting bigger, and bigger, and bigger and bigger....or they change colors completely and become beamy open pulling boats that don't sail, pull or camp very well. I mean, the ordeal of it all is why Outward Bound uses them eh? ;)

Small-boat cruising is a package of compromizes, not just a place to perform bodily functions. Is your sailing weather warm and dry enough for your partner to enjoy nights with just a tarp over the boom? Mine isn't. Put a door on the cuddy and add ventilation if you want privacy. And remember all these are trailer boats you have to raise the mast on every single time you launch.....the spruce stick above is as tall, awkward and heavy as most adult men can handle while standing on springs.....can you do that easily alone? Not to mention if it'll fit in your garage should your local covenants frown on tacky boats hiding under blue tarps or even tackier carport tents.

And while my inner ears and tooth fillings these days don't really want to sail to Hawaii in a bobbing 14' hull....I have no doubt I could do it safely in the right one.

Here's one of the right ones. One of the oldest compromise designs but still one of the best. It's already been up the Inside Passage and back with two adults aboard, and all up and down offshore Oregon. A particularly well-constructed and equipped Hartley 14. With freshly-cut toenails, two six-foot people can stretch out in the doored and lockable cabin. It has a portable head, navigation lights and horn, lighted offshore compass, two large bilge pumps, two forms of auxiliary propulsion, and lots of secure stowage. It points high enough to actually get somewhere rather than just piddle around in puddles. And it even has a storm jib and spinnaker.

So if for whatever reason you don't need a floating hotel room but do prefer a permanent, dry bunk, this one remains a viable choice.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3075025/330812733.jpg

Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )
03-24-2009, 10:15 PM
I would agree with that. I have a 20' pocket cruiser and it's just barely large enough to have both a cockpit and a cabin worthy of the name. Boats noticeable smaller than this, I think, have no business trying to shoehorn in both. Either have a basically open boat with, maybe, a cuddy, or have an essentially cockpit-less boat like Matt Layden's microcruisers.

Kaa

Or you can just have the perfect little camp cruiser with a HUGE cockpit and a comfy little cuddy just nice enough to sleep in add a little dodger or a boom tent and you have the ideal little 17' ....... Tidbit of a pocket cruiser.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Camp%20Sailing/DSCF0351.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Camp%20Sailing/DSCF0322.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/IMG_5767.jpg

It's the biggest little boat, but then again I may be a little bias ;)
But then again if your looking for a spacious pocket cruiser you would be hard pressed to pick a better choice than a catboat ;)

JimD
03-24-2009, 10:36 PM
Another SF design on my list is Simplicity 14 which also comes as a 15er. The raised deck would make for a lot of room inside and it would be dead simple to build. I think about the 12 version for a one person micro cruiser
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Simp14d1.gif

Cuyahoga Chuck
03-24-2009, 11:23 PM
God damn that Bateau AD14/16 is hard on the eyes, yuck.

Form follows fuction. The Bateau Adele is designed for limited jaunts out into bluewater. It is claimed to have a "positive righting arm up to 135ļ".
Out on the briney style won't save you from the fishes. You are acting like seagoing survival is a fashion contest.

JimD
03-24-2009, 11:32 PM
Form follows fuction. The Bateau Adele is designed for limited jaunts out into bluewater. It is claimed to have a "positive righting arm up to 135ļ". If a boat can save you from the fishes why carp about style?

Self bailing cockpit, too

http://www.bateau.com/boats/AD16/slides/AD16_cockpit1.jpg

High Altitude
03-24-2009, 11:41 PM
Form follows fuction. The Bateau Adele is designed for limited jaunts out into bluewater. It is claimed to have a "positive righting arm up to 135ļ". If a boat can save you from the fishes why carp about style?

For a modern design I think it looks pretty good. It doesn't have as much headroom in the cabin so there are no footwells, just a flat space. Enough headroom to sit but I like the smaller designs that have a footwell. I am sure it keeps down windage though. The top of the seats are at deck level so you need some kind of life line to lean against. I am sure some don't like this and want a cockpit that you sit "in" vs "on". It has some advantages though. This adds lots of useable space under the cockpit benches that is available from either inside the cabin or you could make it available to the cockpit. The cockpit is also self draining.

It is light weight but with the plywood core/fiberglass design it will be very strong.

From the early reports of those that have finished them, they sail well.

This small 16' and under camp/pocket "cruisers" are all about compromise. No way getting around it.

High Altitude
03-24-2009, 11:46 PM
Looks like the builder cut out the transom and added some small "backrests" (I don't know what to call them)

I personally would keep the transom whole with some drain holes but I do like the addition to the cockpit seats. Very handy to have some cubbies right there. I would still add the corner pulpits and life lines.


Self bailing cockpit, too

http://www.bateau.com/boats/AD16/slides/AD16_cockpit1.jpg

PeterSibley
03-25-2009, 02:35 AM
One of my favourites .http://www.selway-fisher.com/OtherDB.htm#KANE

17'9" BALTIC LUGGER http://www.selway-fisher.com/Balticd1.gifhttp://www.selway-fisher.com/Balticp1.jpg
Sea Breeze was designed for a German client who wanted a well found dayboat capable of long single handed passages around coastal waters with the occasional hop across deeper water to new shores. She had to have a reasonably sized sleeping platform (which extends under the foredeck and aft under a tent) and space for a removable chart table as well as plenty of stowage space. The rig had to be simple and easy to stow with all controls led aft to the steering position. Construction details are for strip planking over computer faired moulds. The planking is glass/epoxy sheathed inside and out. Her generous depth of hull means that she could be fitted with a small cabin as well as alternative rig/keel configurations. LOD 17'9" (5.42m); Beam 6'10" (2.08m); Draft 1'/4'9" (.3/1.45m); Approx. wht. 1378 lbs (625 kg) incl. 496 lbs (225 kg) of ballast - note, the plans also show an alternative sail plan - a gunter yawl with jib/bowsprit.

17'9" Baltic Lugger Particulars
LOA 17'9" 5.42m Beam 6' 10" 2.08m Hull Mid Depth 2' 10" 0.86m Draft 1'/4'9" 0.3/1.45m Sail Area 156 sq.ft 14.5 sq.m Approx. Dry Weight 1378 lbs 625 kg Ballast 496 lbs 225 kg
Hull Shape
Round bilge Construction Methods Strip plank Major strip wood requirements for hull 1885' of 1/2" x 1 1/4") 575m of 12x30mm Western Red Cedar Guidance Use 4 adults but can take more Drawing/Design Package 9 x 8 Additions and alterations included with the plans Fixed long keel alternative with 1'6" (450mm) draft
Alternative rig - gunter yawl with jib and bowsprit

downthecreek
03-25-2009, 04:46 AM
An American friend of DowntheCreeek and I cruised down the Hudson singlehanded in a Thistle; she is my age, she is an Episcopalian priest and she is sadly very far from fit and well. If she can do it, you can.

Find a Thistle or a Wanderer or a Wayfarer, or even an Albacore*, add bottom boards and a tent and off you go!


Yes indeed! Not only that, but a year or two later she cruised Long Island sound in the same boat, in defiance of a clamour of dire warnings. A little later she acquired a semi derelict 26 foot Pearson, restored it and continues her intrepid journeys, usually singlehanded, but in a little more comfort. She no longer has to piss down the a centreplate case ;). That is one dauntless lady.

Having owned a wooden Wayfarer for some years I can heartily recommend them as small cruisers. I also have fond memories of my own first "lidded" command - an 18 ft 6 Blackwater sloop (also wood) Bermuda rigged, with a big jib set on a short bowsprit with a Wykham Martin furler. She did have a wonderful old Stuart turner engine, but that was mainly for ornamental purposes. No problems taking her up and down our North Sea coasts. The "Matilda Mary" - I wonder where she is now....... :)

2MeterTroll
03-25-2009, 05:28 AM
I gotta ask these are all nice little boats but i keep looking and almost to a boat they look like someone sat on them. what may i ask is the problem with putting a cabin on these things that is in proportion to the hull?
the closest is the Pelican.

PeterSibley
03-25-2009, 06:16 AM
One of my favourites .http://www.selway-fisher.com/OtherDB.htm#KANE

17'9" BALTIC LUGGER http://www.selway-fisher.com/Balticd1.gifhttp://www.selway-fisher.com/Balticp1.jpg
Sea Breeze was designed for a German client who wanted a well found dayboat capable of long single handed passages around coastal waters with the occasional hop across deeper water to new shores. She had to have a reasonably sized sleeping platform (which extends under the foredeck and aft under a tent) and space for a removable chart table as well as plenty of stowage space. The rig had to be simple and easy to stow with all controls led aft to the steering position. Construction details are for strip planking over computer faired moulds. The planking is glass/epoxy sheathed inside and out. Her generous depth of hull means that she could be fitted with a small cabin as well as alternative rig/keel configurations. LOD 17'9" (5.42m); Beam 6'10" (2.08m); Draft 1'/4'9" (.3/1.45m); Approx. wht. 1378 lbs (625 kg) incl. 496 lbs (225 kg) of ballast - note, the plans also show an alternative sail plan - a gunter yawl with jib/bowsprit.

17'9" Baltic Lugger Particulars
LOA 17'9" 5.42m Beam 6' 10" 2.08m Hull Mid Depth 2' 10" 0.86m Draft 1'/4'9" 0.3/1.45m Sail Area 156 sq.ft 14.5 sq.m Approx. Dry Weight 1378 lbs 625 kg Ballast 496 lbs 225 kg
Hull Shape
Round bilge Construction Methods Strip plank Major strip wood requirements for hull 1885' of 1/2" x 1 1/4") 575m of 12x30mm Western Red Cedar Guidance Use 4 adults but can take more Drawing/Design Package 9 x 8 Additions and alterations included with the plans Fixed long keel alternative with 1'6" (450mm) draft
Alternative rig - gunter yawl with jib and bowsprit


Could I ask for a few comments on the above ?( not to attempt a hijack ),but it seems obvious that the contributors have more idea of small cruising boats than I .

Craic
03-25-2009, 07:11 AM
...I honestly think that for cruising in this size of boat you are better off with a regular dinghy with a tent over the boom. Otherwise, you are making huge, and I do mean HUGE, sacrifices in performance, so you end up not enjoying the actual sailing. ...

I agree. But then, a cuddy on a small boat does serve more purposes during the sail than just boiling a kettle, it keeps a lot of stuff out of the way and dry, including that overnighting gear and a boom tent. Open boats need at least that much cover.

One solution is a sturdy folding sprayhood, which keeps a lot of weather and spray at bay. The good thing is that it folds away when not required, which will be most of the time.

And as a step further, for extended travelling, I had this idea one could have a removable rigid stern shelter, like a bit of a hardtop, just a shell. It would live in your garage until called for, rest of the time you have your open boat. Because it would sit aft, it would be completely independent from the main mast, it would not obstruct the sailing itself or obstruct working the sails and foredeck. It could be put on or taken off as required in minutes.

Frankly, the idea drew a lot of flak, 'unaesthetic' was probably the mildest comment.

But in my book on boats form follows function, not the other way around. So allow me to make another attempt here to promote the idea, as food for thought.

Drawing courtesy of Swallowboats:

WX
03-25-2009, 07:16 AM
I agree with Bob...but I would go for the Hartley 16. I'll always had a soft spot for the 16..was going to build one once.

Bob Smalser
03-25-2009, 08:48 AM
Bob - I thought you didn't care for Seagulls?:)

The one you see is why I don't care for them. ;) El Filtho.

JimJ
03-25-2009, 10:25 AM
I agree with Bob...but I would go for the Hartley 16
Add 2 feet and go for the Hartley TS18
http://dsn.au.com/Gallery/Gallery.php?page=1&SearchType=Vessel&Vessel=ab55b788-e431-102b-9e7e-00145edc1a86

Of course I am biased
JimJ

kenjamin
03-25-2009, 10:26 AM
Maybe someday there will be an article about pocket cruisers complete with histograms indicating levels of excellence for seaworthiness, cabin room, cockpit room, windward ability, speed of build, cost of build, ease of trailering, ease of rigging, etc.

When you consider everything, I tend to agree with paladin that the Great Pelican is a whole lot of boat for the money.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/GreatPelican.jpg

Of course, if you were also interested in making a fashion statement, you could always build the Yangtze Pelican.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/YangtzeBoat-sm.jpg

Don't laugh too much, this boxy bird is self-righting. How many of the others can we say that about?

Thorne
03-25-2009, 11:05 AM
I know that we get a lot of thread drift here, but remember that this one started with asking about pocket cruisers for the Southern CA area. There isn't anywhere to "camp" in the way you can boat-camp in the San Juans or Maine - the coastline is one big lee shore with harbors very far apart.

I've done quite a bit of sailing in my old San Juan 21, with only a tiny bit of "blue water sailing" outside of the Golden Gate in CA and in the San Juans and Haro Strait areas. Some of the latter was in fairly high winds and swell at times -- not a lot of fun when singlehanding.

Small lightweight boats are great fun in sheltered waters and good weather. But when things get nasty, the light rigging, spars, fasteners, and low ballast quickly become a liability -- particularly when compared to heavier boats built for offshore conditions.

So although camping and sailing are of course possible and fun in small pocket cruisers and camp cruisers and open boats of all kinds, the sailing of same off the CA coastline is very limited.

Ive been told the Geigers of local TSCA fame have sailed their open boat to Catalina and back, as of course have many others.
http://www.luckhardt.com/elk27.jpg
But it is not something you'll see very many folks do every weekend...and there is a good reason for the fact that 90% of all the sailboats you see very far offshore in CA are 25' or larger.

JimD
03-25-2009, 12:50 PM
... what may i ask is the problem with putting a cabin on these things that is in proportion to the hull?
the closest is the Pelican.

The cabins are in proportion to the actual humans who have to use them. They are meant to house the crew, not just as a storage locker for loose gear. 'Pocket' means a small version of something that can do the job of a bigger version. Bigger boats have cabins the crew can get inside. So must pocket cruisers or its not a pocket cruiser.

Woxbox
03-25-2009, 08:23 PM
Craic -- That aft cabin idea can have merit, but the biggest bugaboo is that the hull is so shallow aft that there's not much depth back there to fit anything. Add the need to access an outboard and fit the tiller, and a watertight lazarette starts to make more sense in most cases.

Of the Hartley's, I'd go with the 18 myself. It's not just for the bigger cabin, it has significantly more carrying capacity.

I've also mentioned before that, for a quick and easy to build, the Stretch Micro from Bolger is hard to beat when it comes to finding a mixture of seaworthiness, interior volume and ease of setup and launch. If you're thinking about resale value, then Eun na Mara has to take the cake, but it's probably double or more the labor and possibly cost than the simple Bolger box boat.

There's all sorts of ways to do this, and every one is better than sitting in the armchair and thinking about it. :D

bucheron
03-25-2009, 10:26 PM
. . . .one could have a removable rigid stern shelter, like a bit of a hardtop, just a shell. It would live in your garage until called for, rest of the time you have your open boat. . . . . . It could be put on or taken off as required in minutes.

Frankly, the idea drew a lot of flak, 'unaesthetic' was probably the mildest comment.

But in my book on boats form follows function, not the other way around. . . . . . .



I agree with all your thinking. I have suggested the removable hard-top in various places and mostly get "oh it would look awful" or just "That would be too hard", and "Oh the windage".

Windage? Any cabin anywhere is going to be more windage than no cabin. Windage is also a two-edged sword, why not have it helping where it can. In my experience with trailer-sailers and even some keel yachts, the high bows have much more grip on the air than the shallow underbodies have on the water, consequently the bows blow away from the wind making anchoring and lying to an anchor difficult. The aft cabin would help keep the stern away from the wind.

The sailing ships of the past persisted with stern castles for centuries. There must have been advantages to them which we are forgetting about. A strong tendency to lie head to wind with ground or sea anchor could be one.

cheers buchie

Rigadog
03-25-2009, 10:42 PM
How about this?



(http://scottsboatpages.blogspot.com/2008/01/what-is-sharpie.html)

http://bp1.blogger.com/_zYVXpWl9Pa4/R6CWDhuFxAI/AAAAAAAABNQ/CyV9lEYwFew/s320/egretsharpie2.bmp (http://bp1.blogger.com/_zYVXpWl9Pa4/R6CWDhuFxAI/AAAAAAAABNQ/CyV9lEYwFew/s1600-h/egretsharpie2.bmp)A 28-foot Egret Sharpie pulled right up to a beach

WX
03-25-2009, 10:43 PM
People have coastal cruised in Hartley 18s...ever better than the 16 :D
I went two steps further to the 24 but not the trailerable config.

Kaa
03-25-2009, 11:07 PM
Aft cabins are kinda traditional on Norse boats :-)

http://home.online.no/%7Ejoeolavl/viking/aafjordsfaering_august.jpg

http://home.online.no/%7Ejoeolavl/viking/aafjordsbaat_loefting.jpg

Kaa

WX
03-25-2009, 11:12 PM
There was a QLD company turning out a range of kit boats that would fall under the title of pocket cruisers, they were/are called Scuffies. I haven't been able to find any links to them. These boats are sold in slot together kit form.

2MeterTroll
03-25-2009, 11:28 PM
I have to say that house aft is definitely the better ride.

as for the height in the cabin i understand why folks would want taller but i don't understand why most of them don't have taller houses. the house and the freeboard dont look right on most pocket cruiser. to much freeboard not enough house.

the pelican looks better because of the sweep of the bow.

but i also recognize that i like old salmon trollers and old anchovy schooners. the way the house fits on the boat just look right. those are work boats and not as refined as most pleasure boats.

Chip-skiff
03-25-2009, 11:38 PM
On Lyttelton Harbour (NZ) we had a sweet little Hartley 14, Simba, that I loved with all my heart. But I never got a decent night's sleep onboard. So 90% of the time we daysailed rather than camp-cruised.

If you want to sail regularly, it makes sense to pick a boat suited to your local water, rather than a design you'll have to trailer for two or three days just to launch.

One caveat about the advice on the WB Forum is that so many of us are dead loyal to a certain design, with little regard to local waters and conditions. (Not excluding myself.)

One of the paramount beauties of handcrafted wooden boats is that most designs respond to local conditions and the materials available.

Wooden Boat Fittings
03-26-2009, 01:07 AM
.
Only they're Scruffies, so the website is www.scruffie.com.

However, there's nothing to see there except contact details. If you want to see drawings or photos of the boats (there are now five, 'Scruffy' being the original model,) you need to go to their UK agent's site here (http://www.whisperboats.co.uk/).

Scruffy marine calls them "traditional wooden boats" but they're not. They're made from kits of pre-cut ply panels that slot together like those dinosaur models you buy for your eight-year-old. Once the tab is through the slot you cut it off and fair it.


http://www.whisperboats.co.uk/images/construct_1.jpg

Because of this there is absolutely no way you could finish any of these boats bright, they have to be painted (which of course is fine if you don't like brightwork anyway.)

A mate build a Scruffy some years ago, and he found the process both pleasurable and pretty simple I think. But I lost touch with him before I learned if he enjoyed sailing it.

A bit like the Stevenson boats, none of them really appeals to me but they appear to have some sort of a following. I don't think I'd want to take any of them very far off-shore, but that's more of a gut-feel than anything else. According to the UK site, the RAN uses Scruffies for cadet training, and if true I suppose they must have something going for them.

Mike

WX
03-26-2009, 01:14 AM
http://www.whisperboats.co.uk/images/stornaway.jpg

Canoez
03-26-2009, 08:17 AM
http://home.online.no/%7Ejoeolavl/viking/aafjordsbaat_loefting.jpg

Kaa

Boy. That edge kinda discourages sitting on the cabin top. :eek:

Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )
03-26-2009, 08:49 AM
I love the aft cabin and I think you could put those "spikes" halfway aft and it would work just as well, and allow you to "use " cabin top ;). I love the tiller lock idea. Great all around design, so salty it makes my eyes rust.

Thorne
03-26-2009, 09:15 AM
How often do you see a lapestrake cabintop? Lovely, and that little hatch sure puts the dog back in doghouse...

BarnacleGrim
03-26-2009, 12:01 PM
Are aft cabins really practical?

Depending on how much rocker the boat has there isn't a lot of room back there. And without a mid cabin there would probably be a lot more spray in that cockpit, and more work getting that water out of it.

I guess these boats are part of my heritage, but I can't help wondering why they couldn't use a more practical fore and aft rig, or even put a proper companionway hatch there...

JimD
03-26-2009, 12:12 PM
I've been tinkering with the aft cabin idea for years. There are many issues that make it difficult, complicated, expensive, impractical, etc, on a small boat. But they sure are cute. My favourite is Heather by Tim Nolan of Port Townsend WA

http://www.boat-links.com/PT/PT2001/Heather-1.jpg
http://www.boat-links.com/PT/PT2001/Heather-2.jpg

andrewe
03-26-2009, 04:57 PM
Heather looks good until you realise that the people around are not giants.
A

BarnacleGrim
03-26-2009, 04:59 PM
There is a steel mid-cockpit boat in the slip across from mine, even then it looks impractical. If you're sleeping in the aft cabin you'd have to go out in the cockpit in the middle of the night just to use the head. Or worse yet, when they are going for the "pirate ship" look.

I quite like the sterncastle on junks, though, they are the only relatively small boats that can get away with it.

JimD
03-26-2009, 05:23 PM
Heather looks good until you realise that the people around are not giants.
A

Heather is still beautiful. Just small.

Longbow
03-26-2009, 06:09 PM
There was an article in WBs Small Boats magazine recently about Nancy's China. I think it would be an ideal small cruiser especially if you add some kind of tent to extend the cabin. I'd really like to build one myself some day.

Woxbox
03-26-2009, 08:15 PM
I mentioned earlier that the cabin space in this class of boats varies a lot. I saw a Nancy's China once, and it is a pretty boat to be sure. But here's the problem: one very tight cabin.

http://www.devlinboat.com/images/LiuNC_int_w_motor.jpg

capt-dave
03-27-2009, 02:22 PM
I once owned a Catalina 22 wing-keel on a trailer. At the time I thought I was getting a great little pocket cruiser that I could trailer to waters other than those outside my backyard. As it turned out the boat was cumbersome to get on and off the trailer, it took more than one person to step the mast and several hours to ready the boat for the water. I ended up mooring the boat instead of using it the way I had intended. Donít get me wrong, the Catalina 22 was a great boat in the water, it just wasnít what I thought I was investing in when I purchased her. I sold the boat a few years later.

When I set out looking at designs one of my priorities was to be able to step the mast and launch the boat (by myself) within one hour. As my boat is not yet completed I cannot say that I have accomplished my objective but that is one of my goals. I wanted my boat to have the facilities for one person to stay aboard overnight and to have the necessities for cruising costal and protected waters. As they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, she also has to be a boat that I would be proud to own and one that Iíd find myself looking back at as I left her sitting on an anchor. My intended use for the boat is to expand my cruising outside of the Galveston Bay area such as the Florida Keys, and the Puget Sound to name a couple.

I decided on the Selway-Fisher designed Tideway 14 (http://www.selway-fisher.com/PCup16.htm#TIDEWAY)

The Tideway 14 dimensions are: LOD 14'6''; Beam 6'1''; Draft 2'1''; Weight with 700lbs. of ballast 1900 lbs.

I am building the boat strictly to the original design. She will be a hard chine version of the Tideway 14. However below decks sheíll be a bit unique as she will only have one birth and will be configured for a single solo sailor. She will have the addition of a solid fuel wood burning stove, a folding chart table and a watercloset of the bucket type. She will be engineless and will carry a set of deck sweepers to aid in getting her home in a calm or to maneuver through a quiet anchorage.

As I said my boat is not completed yet so the jury is still out on rather or not she will meet my objectives. However I do have to say that as I go through the build the Tideway 14 design is a work of art. I have yet to find a problem in any of the offsets or call-outs. My hat is off to Paul Fisher of the Selway-Fisher design group.

http://compassionfitness.dyndns.org:1953/BuildingReunion/progress_photo_small.jpg
If youíd like to sneak a peek at my project: www.BuildingReunion.com (http://www.buildingreunion.com/)

-Capt Dave-
Galveston Bay, Texas

High Altitude
03-27-2009, 09:38 PM
Dave,

Your Tideway looks great.

Are you going to incorporate any of the cockpit design changes (OB well/self draining) that Paul made for Charlie Whipple?

Craic
03-28-2009, 01:26 AM
Aft cabins are kinda traditional on Norse boats :-)

http://home.online.no/%7Ejoeolavl/viking/aafjordsfaering_august.jpg

http://home.online.no/%7Ejoeolavl/viking/aafjordsbaat_loefting.jpg

Kaa

Many thanks for digging this up. Faerings are in direct bloodline from no-nonsense Viking craft, aesthetic through purest functionality and economy.

Some other boats with stern shelters are Atlantic crossing rowboats, the buoyancy and shape of foredeck and stern cabin roof makes them self-righting from inversion without extra ballast.

Anyway, one reason why I think a stern shelter would suit small pocket cruisers better, is that one would have a lighter weight superstructure, a larger cockpit, in foul weather one could steer from within the shelter, and when lying at anchor a dining table could be clipped onto the tiller.
Aesthetics? No. Economy? Perfect. A Viking solution.

capt-dave
03-28-2009, 09:24 AM
When I first heard that Charles Whipple (http://tokyowest.typepad.com/charlies_blog/) had commissioned changes to the Tideway 14 I contacted Paul Fisher requesting the two new drawings. I put a lot of thought into making the changes to the cockpit but after a close study I decided to stick with the original design. Mostly I didnít like the cockpit seat height. I wanted the feeling of sitting more down in the boat, not up on the boat. I did however like the quarter birth but without raising the seat height there isnít enough room under the cockpit seats to support it. As we all know boats are always a compromise. I have not addressed the issue of a self draining cockpit yet. In order to make this change Iíll have to raise the cockpit sole. Itís something I can yet do, but have not made a decision on. One of the changes that Charles requested was the addition of an outboard engine well. It was a real toss up on rather or not to put one in, but once again after a lot of thought I decided against it. Since my Tideway will be an engineless pocket cruiser (which is a controversy in itself) I decided not to cut a hole in the bottom of my boat. It is however a great addition to the design.

I guess I subscribe to the K.I.S.S. theory. I donít plan on having any through hulls. I donít want an engine that is noisy and smells. I like the simplicity of her rig. And most of all I want a sailboat that I can rig, launch and cruise single handed without the dependency of others.

http://compassionfitness.dyndns.org:1953/buildingreunion/show&tell_small.JPG

Capt-Dave
Galveston Bay, Texas

kenjamin
03-28-2009, 09:50 AM
Captain Dave,

Great progress on a great design! On motors or no motors, here is some food for thought. First of all, I hate them too, but sometimes they are very desireable to have available. It is possible to build a waterproof port that when in place, has near zero effect on hull drag. With the port removed, you could slip in Honda's great little 29 lb. (with fuel) 2 HP four-stroke. There are one liter fuel bottles available than can be emptied entirely into the little motor when it goes dry so the problem of not having a remote tank and having to fuel up at sea is somewhat reduced.

It's a hassle to carry fuel and a pain to have to listen to an outboard but it does add another way to get from A to B should you find yourself battling a stiff wind or current or both. Especially if you blow out your shoulder or elbow rowing, you'll be darn glad you've made provision for one. If you go the electric route with a good strong trolling motor and deep cell battery, you'll also have power for lights at night. Something to consider.

JimD
03-28-2009, 09:56 AM
I would not even consider a plywood pocket cruiser with out a self bailing cockpit. Our Glen-L Minuet 15 was designed with one but I would have added it regardless. It was not designed for a motor well so I worked up my own design and retrofitted it:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7cf30b3127ccec2c2f265863900000010O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7cf30b3127ccec2c32da8e64f00000010O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

DGentry
03-28-2009, 10:14 AM
High Altitude, no one has mentioned Phil Bolger's redoubtable Micro, and someone has to, so I guess it'll be me. 15.5'x6.5'

http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/images/micro5a.jpg

A la Bernie Wolfard: "Micro has all the fundamentals for cruising, including being selfrighting, being completely watertight, having a rig that can stand up to a wide range of conditions, and having enough room to accommodate two people and supplies." and "One of Microís nicest features is that she is self-steering with the wind anywhere across the beam."

Other features: Very roomy interior, with gobs of dry storage under the cockpit deck, a full keel with protected rudder, full floatation, separate self-bailing anchor well, a separate well for tank storage, self draining cockpit, integral motor mount, and it's quick and easy to build with no lofting or exotic materials required. Also, it's nail and glue, not stitch and glue, so there's much less mess and epoxy expense to deal with, etc.

There are possible cons (like in any pocket cruiser), of course, but look for those on one of the many Micro threads!

On another note, I have sailed Thistles, and dozens of other open boats, and I would prefer to cruise almost anywhere in something like a Micro! I think the difference is similar to car-camping with a pup tent, vs camping in a VW bus. I've done both extensively, and - comfort and convenience wise - the VW wins most every time.

Fun thread!
Dave Gentry

john l
03-28-2009, 10:36 AM
post 22 shows a "primrose" pocket cruiser from small craft advisor.
is this an ANGUS PRIMROSE design. the deck looks alot like a design series
hes had done - i think they were called sea turtle or something similar.
there was an article on him in either water craft or classic boat about 10 years
ago. i was taken with his design thinking. particularly liked his 14" double ender. the article shows a few designs that look like the one in post 22 but they were 40' and 24'. what issue SCA is this pocket cruiser in?

Paul Pless
03-28-2009, 11:07 AM
I am not going so far as advising imitating Uffa Fox's trips across the Channel in an International 14 or his passage to, and cruise round, Brittany in a sliding seat canoe, but he was at the better end of the spectrum I think.Who was it that did some cruising, including crossing the channel, in a Dragon?

Woxbox
03-28-2009, 09:03 PM
None of these boats is safe off a lee shore in a blow; the Thistle or Albacore or Wayfarer will have the ability to make a quick passage in a weather and tide window whereas the all-up midget cruiser will take so long getting from A to B that her owner spends days waiting for a slant in a confined space and becomes disheartened.Andrew, I'm not sure what awful experience brought you to this broad generality, but it's simply not true.

In production boats, take for example the redoubtable Mariner. Thousands made, great sailer (it's a Rhodes 19 underneath) and has a cozy but perfectly serviceable cabin. I had a lesser known Sanibel 18, just a tad shorter than the Mariner but deeper and generally more pocket-cruiser like. Not a raceboat, but a perfectly safe and capable sailboat. And lee shores never gave me reason to worry.

Sure there are some dogs among the type, as there are among all types of boats. But these boats give way more pleasure back for the investment than anything else I've tried.

DGentry
03-28-2009, 09:52 PM
. . . My point about the proper sailing dinghy for cruising is that the performance is so very much better

Well, yes, that's why I specified I was referring to comfort and convenience.

Safety wise too, though, I'd have to give the nod to something like a Micro over a Thistle, or even some of the other pocket cruisers mentioned. Boats get caught out in bad weather no matter how fast they go.

But, be that as it may, the speed thing is an important consideration, which is why a small cruising multihull may well be the best compromise of all - more than ample speed, and enclosed cabins with dry storage and berths. Not to mention a vast (in comparison) deck for whatever.

Here's the late Thomas Firth Jone's Weekender, an 18' plywood cat. Not real pretty IMO, but that could be changed. The designer does mention she's not an offshore vessel, but, of course, neither is a Thistle. Likely a masthead float would be a good idea for this boat.

www.jonesboats.com (http://www.jonesboats.com)
http://jonesboats.com/Images/weekendplan.jpg

Plumbtex
03-28-2009, 11:39 PM
A tad longer than spec'd but ... http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/sweetpea/index.htm

john l
03-29-2009, 11:55 AM
isn't the hartley 14 very similar in hull shape to the wayfayer albeit a bit beafier?

Rigadog
03-30-2009, 09:55 AM
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03-30-2009, 09:57 AM
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slidercat
03-30-2009, 10:23 AM
I tend to think of pocket cruisers as having some sort of cabin.

Still, I've cruised this boat, and had a lot of fun:

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/slider1/sunsetmcree.jpg

The big center deck lets us pitch a pretty comfortable tent:

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/slider1/tent.jpg

As to aft cabins-- I'm dubious. The big problem with aft cabins is that the companion way must face forward, where it is ideally positioned to collect spray. Most aft cabins are too wet for comfort.

One of my big projects for Slider this spring is to make spray hoods for both cockpits. That should give us some of the benefits of cabins without the weight and (when folded flat) the windage.

Brian Palmer
03-31-2009, 08:49 AM
I am surpised nobody has mentioned this boat yet, maybe because there is another thread devoted to her (Travels with Miss Cindy).

Seems to fit the definition of pocket cruiser and is currently doing quite a bit of cruising.

Brian

http://ideaintegrator.com/boats/tmc/default.html

http://ideaintegrator.com/boats/tmc/ready.jpg

Woxbox
03-31-2009, 08:53 AM
Fair enough, Andrew. Certainly there are places small boats aren't meant to go. But this thread wasn't launched about taking small boats in difficult places. It's about coastal cruising.


For this reason, making passages in a little boat takes much more time than in a bigger one. By way of illustration, to get to Downthecreek's creek from my river involves a passage of around thirty-odd miles, mainly to the south-westward, against our prevailing wind, and more than half of that distance is down a passage between the coast and an offshore bank, along which the tide runs strongly.

In this situation, for example, one simply drives the boat to the mouth of the river, launches there and all is well. And if it's really nasty out there, you drive the boat someplace else. Maybe an inland lake this weekend? Or maybe it's a good summer to drive the boat down to Greece? I do believe that's the sort of boating we're after here.

JimD
03-31-2009, 09:56 AM
Somehow I completely missed the Miss Cindy thread. Paul Pless even had this to say
Cindy's got JimD written all over her!:p . Yes, it does look like my sort of boat. But I had a thread a while back on narrow beamed cats and question the seaworthyness of Miss Cindy on that account. Very sweet little boat though.

slidercat
03-31-2009, 11:09 AM
Somehow I completely missed the Miss Cindy thread. Paul Pless even had this to say . Yes, it does look like my sort of boat. But I had a thread a while back on narrow beamed cats and question the seaworthyness of Miss Cindy on that account. Very sweet little boat though.

Jim, she's made some impressive offshore passages on her first cruise, in conditions ranging from calms to pretty heavy stuff. Tony Bigras is a good writer too-- his blog has been really interesting to follow. He brought the boat down from Vancouver to Baja on top of an old station wagon, gave away the car, and has made it all the way to Nicaragua. He plans to have the boat trucked overland to the Caribbean.

I check his blog every day, to see if he's added any new stuff. He's a very good photographer, too.

"Narrow beam" is relative. A Gougeon 32 with 8 foot beam is narrow. A 16 foot cat with an 8.5 foot beam really isn't that narrow-- though probably not ideal. That's one reason I limited Slider's length to 16 feet-- because I wanted an easily trailerable cat, one that required no assembly at the ramp, and if you go much longer than that, 8.5 feet is inadequate. Right now I'm building a 14 foot cartop cat with 8.5 foot beam, and that's edging closer to optimal beam for its length. Next on the to-do list is a 23 foot cat-- and it will have 12 foot beam. Anyway, I don't think Miss Cindy is really a narrow cat-- just a very small one. She carries a lot of sail for her size, too-- about 200 sq. feet, if I remember correctly.

JimD
03-31-2009, 11:48 AM
...

"Narrow beam" is relative...

Slider, the 'relative' I'm mainly interested is the relative probablility of capsize and the relative chance of every righting the boat again.

slidercat
03-31-2009, 01:09 PM
Jim, how beamy do you think a 16 foot cat should be, ideally?

It's true, of course, that small cats are more likely to capsize than big ones, independent of beam. But given a certain length, beam can be less than optimal, more than optimal, or optimal. Structural considerations also figure into this design problem; without the use of exotic materials, it may not be feasible to build a cat with optimal beam, above a certain size.

A beach cat with 8 foot beam and a huge rig is an acceptable risk, because it can be righted by crew, unassisted. A cruising cat of the same length should have a much smaller rig, because generally it can't be righted unassisted. If Miss Cindy's rig was a conventional one, 200 sq. ft. would be too much for an 8.5 foot beam, I think. But apparently the biplane junk-like rig is different.

I agree that in most cases, a 16 foot cat is too small to take offshore, regardless of beam. Maybe Tony has just been lucky.

JimD
03-31-2009, 03:24 PM
Ray, I was surprised that the owners of Miss Cindy consider her capable of coastal sailing. I once canvassed the forum for opinions on the smallest capable coastal/limited off shore catamaran and don't think anyone felt an eight or so foot beam would be enough. At least 10, better 12 or more seemed to be the general consensus. So perhaps Miss Cindy is a lucky boat, or at least extremely prudently sailed.

James McMullen
03-31-2009, 04:15 PM
Miss Cindy really hasn't been sailing for long enough to have any actual data on whether or not she is truly "seaworthy" or whether her owner is just good or lucky. Before you overthrow the general consensus, you're going to need more than anecdotal data.

kenjamin
03-31-2009, 04:23 PM
Ray, I was surprised that the owners of Miss Cindy consider her capable of coastal sailing. I once canvassed the forum for opinions on the smallest capable coastal/limited off shore catamaran and don't think anyone felt an eight or so foot beam would be enough. At least 10, better 12 or more seemed to be the general consensus. So perhaps Miss Cindy is a lucky boat, or at least extremely prudently sailed.

It probably helps that the rig can so easily be reefed and that one sail shadows the other on a reach and maybe to windward also so total effective area is a little different than on other rigs. I bet it gets a little tricky down wind, wing and wing, in a gusty wind and lumpy sea.

BarnacleGrim
03-31-2009, 05:20 PM
I have done quite some reading on the Miss Cindy. Fascinating stuff, I've always been intrigued with minimal cruising, even if I'm a person who like to live comfortably.

What makes me wonder is why exactly he chose a catamaran. A narrower monohull should offer better seakeeping in the same small package, and with much more headroom because the cabin would extend below the waterline. I suppose it all boils down to cartopping, something which I'm quite opposed to. The boat should first and foremost be designed for the water, not the road. And large heavy boats will seriously affect car handling and safety. I wouldn't want to have to brake and swerve around an elk with a catamaran on the roof, even if it is safely tied down.

slidercat
04-01-2009, 11:36 AM
Jim, I'd have been scared to take her where Tony has taken her. But Tony has built and sailed a number of multihulls he's designed, some quite extensively, so perhaps he sees Muss Cindy as the logical extension of what he's learned from those boats.

James, without anecdotal evidence, where do you start? I agree that nothing is proven by Miss Cindy's remarkable voyage, but sailing from Baja to Nicaragua is a more extensive sea trial than most new designs get, so it is certainly suggestive, at the very least. My personal opinion is that a cat that small is too small to take more than a few miles offshore, and that only in settled weather, but we might both be wrong.

Kenjamin, about the sails. I emailed Tony and asked him about how they do on a reach, since that seems to be a weak point of biplane rigs. He said that he sheeted the windward sail to the bow, so that the sails form a continuous airfoil. As a side effect, he says he gets dynamic self-steering.

Grim, I can't do more than speculate as to why he chose a cat for a microcruiser. But at a guess, it has to do with comfort. My 16 foot cruising cat is far more comfortable to sail than any monohull I've ever sailed, including some fairly large ones. It is vastly more comfortable than any 16 foot monohull could possibly be, for many reasons. But I agree that for offshore, a self-righting monohull, if properly designed, would be much safer. As to headroom, I haven't seen any interior pics of Miss Cindy, but I would assume that there's sitting headroom over the hulls, and that the cabin between the hulls is mostly used for sleeping.

I don't think Miss Cindy was actually designed as a cartop boat. I think that because the trip to Baja was a one-way trip, he found a big old junker of a station wagon that ran well enough to get him to Mexico, but that he could give away when he got there without too much financial pain. He plans to sell the boat after he's completed the Caribbean part of his cruise. I imagine the new owner will want a trailer.

That said, I believe the cartop cat I'm currently building will work fine on a rooftop carrier. The boat comes apart, so that on the carrier, the package will be less than 5 feet wide, 2 feet high, and 14 feet long. It should weigh under 200 lbs. I still wouldn't want to dodge an elk with it on the roof, but I wouldn't want to dodge an elk while towing a trailer, either.

kenjamin
04-01-2009, 11:44 AM
Thanks slider,

I had not even considered that possibility Ė clever!

ahp
04-02-2009, 11:25 AM
There is a book "Pocket Cruisers" by J. D. Sleightholme, published in 1965. It is worth a read.. One boat that appealed to me was Mystic, designed by Robert Tucker. A V bottom, twin keel sloop about 21 ft long.

Dan St Gean
04-08-2009, 01:26 PM
"Narrow beam" is relative. A Gougeon 32 with 8 foot beam is narrow. A 16 foot cat with an 8.5 foot beam really isn't that narrow-- though probably not ideal.

Anyway, I don't think Miss Cindy is really a narrow cat-- just a very small one. She carries a lot of sail for her size, too-- about 200 sq. feet, if I remember correctly.

Judging from most commercial cats half the length seems about right. For the same reason your cat is about right as well. The added bonus of being trailerable is really nice. Once you go above trailerable, you might as well go much longer since you can and assembly is going to be the same time sucker for an 18'x9' or a 24'x12' boat. What I find disheartening is the cost of rigging the larger sizes of multis. What I'm doing to keep the costs down is to reuse a beachcat rig. I should go with a 10' beam or even more on my double Tamanu cat, but the allure of a trailerable beam is strong.

Miss Cindy also has the added advantage of instantly infininately adjustable reefing a la Matt Layden and a low sailplan. He claims good windward performance as well. Thus far he's done an amazing amount of miles for such a small boat! I'd venture to say that it's about as safe as any unbalasted boat can be.

Dan

Jacktar9417
04-11-2009, 08:25 PM
Back around 1960, Robert Manry outfitted a 13-1/2' wood lapstrake open boat with a deck, cockpit, and cuddy cabin. He stepped a mast (I believe it was a sloop rig), named the boat "Tinkerbelle" and sailed it from Falmouth, Massachusetts to Falmouth, England. The spelling of the name was altered so as not to get in trouble with Disney. Manry later wrote a book about the ordeal by the same name complete with pictures.

I had a client from Tennessee that commissioned me to design him a 15' sloop that would be open ocean capable several years ago. I tried to convince him that a bigger boat would be better suited for the task, but he was insistant that the hull be no longer than 15' loa. I relented and designed the boat for modern plywood construction and used twin ballast keels such that the boat would sit upright on he hard at low tide. I called the design "Tinkerbelle" in honor and memory of Robert Manry's successful endeavor so many years past. I never heard anything from the client after he received the last set of plans and specs, so I don't know if the boat was ever built.

Personally, my preference for a pocket cruiser would be a copy of Bruce Bingham's Flicka 20. The boat was built in glass by Pacific Seacraft until 1998 (I think), but when Mr. Bingham first designed the boat, a wood version of the plans was available.

I've threatened to design a similar boat for myself in the past, however life and business seems to keep getting in the way.

Best advice I can offer: Go with whatever boat you can easily afford and obtain just to get out on the water and start sailing. Then look at the rest of them. The best boat in the world is the one you presently own. Others will always point out another design that may be better, but it's no better for you if you can't afford it, obtain it, or have access to it.

I wish you fair winds and following seas.......

Tony Bigras
05-11-2009, 05:33 PM
Hi,

I don't quite get the cat minimum size for seaworthness concept. In developing various sailboats I always build a model and they tell me a lot about how wet the boat is, if it will pound, sail balance, and bad habits like poor tracking in waves or bow burying on a reach. I don't understand the size being a factor for seaworthyness. Models 2' feet long can be seaworthy.

For exampe two cats same design one 16' one 32' . What are the differences.

Wind speed stability of the bigger one is 1.4 times the smaller one. But the neither the small one or the big one are likely to carry full sail to that stability limit.... so?

Moments of inertia are different. I don't know if this advantages the big one or the small one. Probably neither.

Structure loads at the scaled scantlings are higher on the big cat. So either scantlings go up or payload goes down or something breaks.

If there is a magic beam to wave size both boats are likely to experience it. Just in different wind conditions.

Now I can think of lots of reasons why a small cat is not practical for long distance cruising, mostly to do with crew size and payload and comforts, but not of those are about sea worthyness.

Tony Bigras, Aboard 'Miss Cindy' Fort Myers Florida USA

Tony Bigras
05-11-2009, 05:46 PM
Hi Everyone,

I would have posted this from Cuba but these forums are blocked there!

The cartoping was a last minute decision. I originally was going to use a trailer. It seemed practical with the big wagon and fun too.

I have owned , or my dad has owned, all kinds of boats from full keel boats to cal 20s to fast racing tris and cruising tris and cats. I worked as a rigger for 3 years and got a ton of invites to sail on all kinds of boats.

The number one thing I like about tris and cats is that they are less tiring to sail. On a keel boat after a rough watch you can count the bruises you pickup in the cockpit and walking thru the cabin. In 7 months on 'Miss Cindy' I have only had two. The motion at sea is way better and at anchor too. I anchored in lots of open roadsteads with significant wave and swell action and slept great. Yea there are times you get the double beam wave length bother but it is minor compared to some of the rail to rail rolling monos get in lots of anchorages.

Space: 'Miss Cincy' is pretty big inside. Standard double bed with standard double sheets. No lee cloth or a need for it. Lots of storage in the hulls plus the galley and head. Big storage lockers under the cockpit seats. Enough space to easily overload her!!!

At sea at night or when napping I sailed he conservativly. Often heavily reefed doing 4+ knots rather than powered up doing 5-6. Way more comfortable and the numbers say, safer.

Tony Bigras, Aboard 'Miss Cindy' Fort Myers, Florida. USA



I have done quite some reading on the Miss Cindy. Fascinating stuff, I've always been intrigued with minimal cruising, even if I'm a person who like to live comfortably.

What makes me wonder is why exactly he chose a catamaran. A narrower monohull should offer better seakeeping in the same small package, and with much more headroom because the cabin would extend below the waterline. I suppose it all boils down to cartopping, something which I'm quite opposed to. The boat should first and foremost be designed for the water, not the road. And large heavy boats will seriously affect car handling and safety. I wouldn't want to have to brake and swerve around an elk with a catamaran on the roof, even if it is safely tied down.

John Bailey
05-12-2009, 09:38 PM
I've gotta believe the Golant Gaffer is one of the most seaworthy, comfortable, and possibly the prettiest small cruiser around.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/JohnBailey_01/golant.jpg

John

John Turpin
05-12-2009, 10:32 PM
Evening Swan Yawl

http://www.tetra-sail.com/swan/esyawl.jpg

Dana Marlin
05-13-2009, 09:32 AM
Here's my little pocket cruiser - about a month or two away from launching...

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs007.snc1/4170_96492674001_597214001_2450733_2193322_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2450734&id=597214001)
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs007.snc1/4170_96492684001_597214001_2450735_843886_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2450734&id=597214001)
http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs007.snc1/4170_96492689001_597214001_2450736_4323621_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2450734&id=597214001)

Dan St Gean
05-13-2009, 11:14 AM
Hi Everyone,


Tony Bigras, Aboard 'Miss Cindy' Fort Myers, Florida. USA

Tony,

Good to hear from you! Thanks for your input. I've read your site and have loved following your adventures.

Sincerely,

Dan St. Gean

esingleman
05-13-2009, 01:43 PM
Here's my little pocket cruiser - about a month or two away from launching...

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs007.snc1/4170_96492674001_597214001_2450733_2193322_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2450734&id=597214001)
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs007.snc1/4170_96492684001_597214001_2450735_843886_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2450734&id=597214001)
http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs007.snc1/4170_96492689001_597214001_2450736_4323621_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2450734&id=597214001)

That is a very sexy boat. What she be?

JimD
05-13-2009, 01:57 PM
Hi,

I don't quite get the cat minimum size for seaworthness concept...

I was of the impression that in this case size meant beam, and beam of course will influence length. The suggestion being that narrow cats will capsize more easily. I know very little about catamarans, so I say this as the student, not the teacher.

Dana Marlin
05-14-2009, 02:48 AM
That is a very sexy boat. What she be?


Thank you. She's in Malta

PeterSibley
05-14-2009, 03:45 AM
Here's my little pocket cruiser - about a month or two away from launching...

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs007.snc1/4170_96492674001_597214001_2450733_2193322_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2450734&id=597214001)
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs007.snc1/4170_96492684001_597214001_2450735_843886_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2450734&id=597214001)
http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs007.snc1/4170_96492689001_597214001_2450736_4323621_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2450734&id=597214001)

CONGRATULATIONS !

Very ,very nice !:):)

62816inBerlin
05-15-2009, 08:19 AM
Higher up in the thread, somebody doubted her suitability for open-sea passages. IMHO crossing the Caribbean from Central America to Cuba and on to Florida is good proof.

My father (who went on to get a master's ticket) apprenticed on Baltic schooners (with small auxiliaries - if any at all) in the 1920s and recounted that when the conditions were really bad, they would spend days at anchor hiding behind Bornholm or other islands that provided cover.
The lesson is, if you can avoid weather with a high risk of loss of ship or life, do so. Whether a "Miss Cindy" design can weather a storm at sea remains to be proven, but I guess a light craft like that should have no problems if she has enough sea room to avoid reefs and coasts (I suppose with the shallow draft she will drift fast under bare poles, even with a sea anchor). In that respect, one is safer further away from the coast.

As the starter of this thread, High Altitude , said, he is looking for a boat for coastal cruising. That means he can plan his trips to suit the weather and will normally be within reach of a sheltered anchorage when the weather reports call for such action.

Gernot H.

maxcampbell
02-28-2010, 06:14 AM
You can see their "Secret" gaff cutter sailing at www.youtube.com/whispersvideos (http://www.youtube.com/whispersvideos)

DGentry
02-28-2010, 07:00 AM
You can see their "Secret" gaff cutter sailing at www.youtube.com/whispersvideos (http://www.youtube.com/whispersvideos)

Who are "they," Max? You?:D

That's a cute little boat, but I'd have been more impressed to see someone out on the trapeze, instead of the main being reefed down . . . .

Redeye
02-28-2010, 08:46 AM
How small does something have to be to fit into the term "pocket cruiser"?

Less than 7m? 6m? 5m? How long is a piece of string?

I own a 23 ft Van de Stadt, and to be serious, it has bugger all room inside. It is solid and seaworthy, but would take a fair while to build from scratch. Two blokes in that boat for more than 2 nights anywhere and you have to be very good friends indeed, esp as there is no head.

However, boats like Welsford's Sundower are shorter but have much more room inside by far, and not to mention a round bilge and designed to carry you safely across oceans (so long as you don't go to sleep and unfortunately end up on the bricks on the outside of Gt Barrier.) Would this still classify as a "pocket cruiser"? I guess it depends on one's pockets.

In my opinion, open boats are great, but not a serious option if you intend to stay out for anymore than a day or so when the weather may take an unexpected turn and leave you swimming.

What I'm saying is that you really have to be very certain of what you want your wee boat to be capable. Will she fit your dreams, and pander to your wanderlust?

Of course, you could make like that mad Australian and sail around the globe in a 12 ft aluminium dinghy... Or that other guy who tried (and nearly made it) to paddle his kayak across the Tasman sea - +1000 NM of open ocean.

And remember - the fun you have in any boat is inversely proportional to the product of it's size and cost.

R

maxcampbell
03-01-2010, 05:10 AM
Well, Mr Gentry, got me, huh? I should have chosen a cryptic username!

I keep getting links to my website from woodenboat forums and was trying to find out exactly where, and couldn't resist.

Seriously, though, as a user who would get nothing out of sales to USA - or anywhere outside UK - I really can vouch for Secret's "user-friendliness" she is the lightest boat I have ever helmed, she stays neutral at all angles of heel and that long keel never stalls.

I quite agree about trapeze / reef comment, but in fact we very rarely use the trapeze, and I don't want to give the mistaken impression that the trapeze is necessary to sail the boat effectively; she stands up to her canvas pretty well, especially considering she's only 650Kg.

slidercat
03-01-2010, 12:30 PM
I really can vouch for Secret's "user-friendliness" she is the lightest boat I have ever helmed, she stays neutral at all angles of heel ....


This doesn't really sound like a great thing to me. A little bit of weather helm is an important safety feature.

Geary
03-01-2010, 01:31 PM
And remember - the fun you have in any boat is inversely proportional to the product of it's size and cost.
R

I like this general statement and it makes a good point. But isn't there a lower limit to this formula? Otherwise, we would all be floating around in gravy boats having a gay old time. :D

Woxbox
03-01-2010, 10:59 PM
Rub a dub dub, three men in a tub. :D

I've long noticed that the most experienced wind up going back to smaller boats, even when they don't really neede to.

huisjen
03-02-2010, 08:14 AM
Our harbormaster has a rule. If you're over 16' long and 6' beam, you have to moor out. My design goal is a pocket cruiser that (among other things) I can tie up at the dock like a dinghy. I want to be able to sail without having to commute out to a mooring. I want to ground out twice a day so that less crap grows on my hull.

Dan

Redeye
03-02-2010, 08:17 AM
I like this general statement and it makes a good point. But isn't there a lower limit to this formula? Otherwise, we would all be floating around in gravy boats having a gay old time. :D

True, there is a size limit, but i think I've had the most fun in a clapped-out old fibre glass kayak, exploring estuaries and tidal creeks. Next would be a 12 Aluminium dinghy, fishing and rigging sails from whatever we could find. Perhaps the polish of years has added to value of these memories, and back then I didn't have the worries which accumulate as life progresses. Getting wet and or sinking the boat, running aground on the rocks are all things which didn't seem anywhere near as bad as they do now.

huisjen
03-02-2010, 08:29 AM
I think I also want a spot in the cuddy of my next boat where there's a small window for the fishies to look through. Somewhere protected, probably along side a slightly protruding keel. It'll help me find things I've dropped overboard.

http://home.xtra.co.nz/hosts/david77/afishinthewindo.jpg

Dan

Woxbox
03-02-2010, 08:33 PM
Our harbormaster has a rule. If you're over 16' long and 6' beam, you have to moor out. My design goal is a pocket cruiser that (among other things) I can tie up at the dock like a dinghy. I want to be able to sail without having to commute out to a mooring. I want to ground out twice a day so that less crap grows on my hull.

Sounds like a Micro to me.

kenjamin
03-03-2010, 12:04 PM
Or Welsford's Fafnir:

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/fafnir1.gif

huisjen
03-03-2010, 01:47 PM
Micro is ugly and would be over 6' wide if you add any sort of rub strip. I want a couple inches to spare. Like Fafnir, it has a flat plumb bow. I don't want a pram. I want something that can stay on it's feet and not be too perturbed by Penobscot Bay chop. I also want ketch rig, a pulpit main, and a really easy build.

I've got something in mind with a V-hull, curved leech batwing gunter main, a removable bowsprit, and yoke steering.

Dan

Dana Marlin
03-04-2010, 03:56 AM
here are some updates on my little cutter. Unfortunately I did not launch her yet since, as many of you know, once you start building a wooden boat you're liable to lose your wife. Well that took a good part of last year but now that that is past I can concentrate on the boat again...

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs487.ash1/26627_364201304001_597214001_4574934_7787056_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4156183&id=597214001)

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs194.snc3/20132_268543324001_597214001_4207561_6031724_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4156183&id=597214001)

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs174.snc3/20132_270138449001_597214001_4215535_3395795_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4156183&id=597214001)

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs174.snc3/20132_270138464001_597214001_4215536_2088877_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4156183&id=597214001)

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs507.snc3/26627_364201309001_597214001_4574935_6060740_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4156183&id=597214001)

huisjen
03-04-2010, 06:25 AM
Yeah!

Dan

StevenBauer
03-04-2010, 10:15 AM
here are some updates on my little cutter.


Wow! She's a beauty, Dana.


Steven

Figment
03-04-2010, 01:32 PM
You had waaaay too much fun making those cleats, didn't you? :D

garland reese
03-04-2010, 06:31 PM
http://www.cmdboats.com/mbirdk.htm?cart_id=cc62c64d1cf343f21906bde5e83160f d

Karl Stambaugh's Meadow Bird is a very attractive little pocket cruiser..... one of the prettiest small boats around, to my view. With the exceptions of the double ended designs like Garden's Eel and those of Ian Oughtred's designs, it is my favorite little camp cruiser of all those under 18 feet.

The Meadow Bird's center board lies beneath the floor, so doe not encroach upon interior space, and the cabin top can be built pop-up style to give additional room when overnighting. I love the yawl version. Mr. Stambaugh mentioned that the boat would do fine if lenthened up to eighteen feet, for a little addional space.

Mr. Oughtred's little Wee Seal is another of my favorite small designs.

It is hard to beat his Eu Na Mara, posted by Joe.

cbnorth
03-04-2010, 07:56 PM
Dana,

Beautiful boat. Couple of questions :

Is it a Gartside 93 ?

Can you tell us more about the space/volume of the cuddy ?

Thx

Claude

Dana Marlin
03-05-2010, 03:09 AM
Dana,

Beautiful boat. Couple of questions :

Is it a Gartside 93 ?

Can you tell us more about the space/volume of the cuddy ?

Thx

Claude

Hi Claude. Thanks.

Yes she is the #93 but I added a cubby by eye - I didn't loft it or design it - just made cardboard templates of it and stood back until it looked right before building.

There isn't much room down below though since she is a centerboarder, but I designed the cubby so that when I am sitting on the sole I have abotu 2" - 3" headroom all round. i also put the water-tight bulkhead in mid cockpit so there are "quarterbirths" on either side. All in all it is pretty cosy down below but I don't think a weekend trip would be uncomfortable with a few cusions and sailbags to sleep on. Also the forward hatch and sliding hatch are really large so standing in them is quite easy and comfortable.

Dana

Dana Marlin
03-05-2010, 03:12 AM
You had waaaay too much fun making those cleats, didn't you? :D

just a widdle bit...

slidercat
03-05-2010, 02:09 PM
Dana, I don't know how you're going to bring yourself to put so glorious a work of art into the water, where it might be bumped by a rock. Beautiful!

maxcampbell
03-06-2010, 04:55 AM
Who are "they," Max? You?:D

That's a cute little boat, but I'd have been more impressed to see someone out on the trapeze, instead of the main being reefed down . . . .

Just to show we do use the trapeze occassionally
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4004/4410706540_80abf9c979.jpg

perldog007
03-06-2010, 03:00 PM
http://http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f33/117498d1253913939-rudder-end-plates-bolger-micro-016.jpghttp://http://www.sailingtexas.com/picbolgermicro16aa.jpg pocket cruiser.....

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f33/117498d1253913939-rudder-end-plates-bolger-micro-016.jpg

Chris Setzler
03-06-2010, 05:12 PM
I notice the pic of Bolger's Micro but have to wonder how you'd go about getting a set of plans assuming someone wanted to build one. It is my understanding Phil sold the rights to the design. I guess that explains why plans can't be found(at least easily).

perldog007
03-06-2010, 05:56 PM
I notice the pic of Bolger's Micro but have to wonder how you'd go about getting a set of plans assuming someone wanted to build one. It is my understanding Phil sold the rights to the design. I guess that explains why plans can't be found(at least easily).

Try here (http://http://www.common-sense-boats.com/micro.htm)

To me, pocket cruiser implies a small ship capable of cruising. The Swaggie is another. Whereas boats like Tread lightly, The weekender, and such are small day sailors.

Actually, quite a few micros have been built. According to a mod on the Instantboats board, amassing the lead for the ballast is a PITA but the construction is fairly straightforward.

Sailor
03-06-2010, 09:00 PM
Nobody has mentioned the pretty little Maid of Endore. Or is she too big to be considered a pocket cruiser. She's so perfectly pretty that I can't help but include her in this list.

David G
03-06-2010, 09:36 PM
I notice the pic of Bolger's Micro but have to wonder how you'd go about getting a set of plans assuming someone wanted to build one. It is my understanding Phil sold the rights to the design. I guess that explains why plans can't be found(at least easily).

It is generally held amongst Bolger affectionados that one does not buy plans from anyone but the Bolger firm directly. Other firms are alleged to have pirated plans without paying royalties. From what I've seen - this seems to be true. Plans are readily available here, via fax or snailmail:


Phil Bolger & Friends
P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930

Fax: (978) 282-1349

David G
03-06-2010, 09:44 PM
I'm surprised no one seems to have mentioned a Great Pelican. A beamy 16', and scads of room below. A comfortable cockpit and a simple rig. By all accounts, a handy sailer, and even brisk fun in the right conditions:

http://www.sailingtexas.com/sgreatpelican16100.html

http://www.platypusboats.com/f/design/t_header_left.jpg?1267926223370

**********************************

And, of course, there's something similar from Sam Devlin in a 20 footer - the Lichen

http://www.devlinboat.com/lichen.php

http://www.devlinboat.com/images/lichen3.jpg

kenjamin
03-08-2010, 11:18 AM
Check out the great pelican, cheap to build, easy to handle, and they have cruised to Hawaii with a 2 person crew.....

Great Pelican made page one of this thread.

David G
03-08-2010, 01:14 PM
Great Pelican made page one of this thread.

Yes... hmmm... well... that was a long time ago, you see, and at my age one begins to notice the oncoming incursions of time related... ummm... what were we talking about, again?

And, not only that, but I posted about it my very own self. Well, it's a good thing that ONE of the twins still has all his faculties (you do, right Thorne??? Tell me you do!).

DGentry
03-08-2010, 03:18 PM
It is generally held amongst Bolger affectionados that one does not buy plans from anyone but the Bolger firm directly.

Well, this, AFAIK, holds true only with CSB, which has (under new ownership) decided they own some Bolger plans, outright, and refuse to pay royalties to PB&F. PB&F have asked that no one buy Bolger plans from that company. Perldog, it would be great if you would edit out that link!
One can get Micro plans from PB&F, as noted.

Perldog, is that your Micro? Nice!

Dave Gentry

Rigadog
03-09-2010, 07:54 AM
from another thread here:

A couple of decades ago I first read Arthur Ransome's Recundra's First Cruise. A pleasant story of a cruise he, his lover, and the Ancient Mariner completed in 1921 in the Baltic Sea region. Another bit of good writing about small sailboat cruising for which the British seem to have a particular appreciation.

In that book there was a discussion of the boat he had had designed and built for himself, but not enough about it to satisfy me. I was pleasantly surprised though, to find the plans in appendices of a recently published book titled Recundra's Third Cruise. So, here are Recundra's drawings.

There's still enough time before spring for a little armchair sailing, no?

(by the way, this recent book is not really about sailing.....more about motoring up a small river, anchoring, and fishing)

http://www.yachtflyers.com/forum_images/RECUNDRA_72dpi.gif
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