Buehler's hard chine boats

[BarnacleGrim]

I just finished reading Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding, roughly from cover to cover, and I'm very intrigued!

I never thought a hard chine boat could look so good. In fact I think many, myself included, would mistake them for round bilge hulls. The carvel planking gives it a very traditional look and feel, and local lumber can be used instead of expensive imported ply. And perhaps best of all, no sticky, messy epoxy! How realistic is hard chine carvel for the novice to intermediate builder?

Unfortunately any huge project like a Juno or even a Hagar is out of question for me right now, but it does make me dream about crossing oceans in my very own self-built boat. Does anyone here have experience with his designs?

http://georgebuehler.com/georgeimages/Jays%20Juna1.jpg (http://georgebuehler.com/Juna.html)

[James McMullen]

I've seen several Beuhler boats (after all, he does live pretty close to me) and they've all seemed like sturdy, no-nonsense boats. If I was poor and desperate to build my very own blue-water cruiser, I'd be checking out his designs for sure.

The thing is, I'm more interested in performance oriented, inshore boats, and his heavy, somewhat simplified, workboat inspired designs ain't winning any races. . . .

[kc8pql]

Does anyone here have experience with his designs?
I have a little. I spent 7 or 8000 hrs. building his Jenny design.

[holzbt]

Check this out http://www.worldvoyagers.com/iwalani/boat/index.htm

[paladin]

My partner and I built a little Mel in our yard in Thailand....helluva nice boat...all we did was the basic structure and the interior woodwork and the fellow finished it out with a couple of our Thai laborers over a period of 8 months. I understand he eventually sailed to Spain with it and his wife.

[Thad Van Gilder]

I am dead set on building a gaff ketch version of the olga in the book.

I love that design!

There are several Buehler designs on the Chesapeake.

-Thad

[BarnacleGrim]

I have a little. I spent 7 or 8000 hrs. building his Jenny design.
I saw the interior pictures of your boat. Beautiful!


My partner and I built a little Mel in our yard in Thailand....helluva nice boat...all we did was the basic structure and the interior woodwork and the fellow finished it out with a couple of our Thai laborers over a period of 8 months. I understand he eventually sailed to Spain with it and his wife.

Having one built in Thailand sounds interesting. Only problem is I'll get in trouble with the small crafts directive when it's time to bring the boat home. But I've heard some yards even include CE marking...

[JimD]

I saw the interior pictures of your boat. Beautiful!...

You don't want to miss the outside either.

http://georgebuehler.com/georgeimages/Jenny/DSC00105.JPG

[Spokaloo]

I find his habit of edge-setting his carvel to be very interesting. Having never built in that method, it sure seems like a challenge to get those shapes and not have her hog out, but there are tons of his various power and sail designs kicking around the San Juans that prove it.

E

[JimD]

Big boats don't even enter my dreams anymore but I've often thought of how cool it would be to have a Pogo.

http://georgebuehler.com/georgeimages/Pogo4.jpg

http://georgebuehler.com/Happy%20Camper/HC%20sails%20up.jpg

[MalcolmV]

I am just starting to learn about boat design and I have a question. Most classic yachts have a wineglass section ie. hollow garboards. Buehler's designs and many workboats have a "V" section.
I understand that the hollow garboards; triangulate the section so are structurally stronger, reduce turbulence, reduce wetted area and look sexy.
However the wineglass shape looks much harder to build. If I were seriously considering building a boat like this I would find the double curves on the frames intimidating.
How much speed does one give up with the "V" section versus the "Y" section?

[mmd]

Now there's a question!

Unfortunately, it is much easier to ask than answer. I'll have to fall back on the usual NA reply of, "It depends..."

It is notoriously difficult to compare dissimilar designs. There is the usual mathematical devices of comparing SA/Disp., Wetted surface/Disp., etc., which will give you a ballpark idea, but these are, in the long run, somewhat crude tools. Another method is to use today's computer tools to evaluate the two forms hydrodynamically using polar resistance graphs and such, but these tools (at least the ones within the reach of the common folk) also have "blind spots" such as edge vortices along chines and appendages that may affect the resistance numbers. Next up is tank testing, but this can get pretty darned expensive and even with this there are surprises. So, you're left with head to head trials of similar size & displacement boats, but this brings in the vagarities of sail construction and boat handling.

Like I said, a difficult question to answer. If I were to hazard an opinion, I would give a slight advantage to the round-bilge, wineglass-section hull on most points of sail, mostly due to the increased wetted-surface and chine turbulence associated with the chine hull. The pernicious problem is that a well-built example of a good hard-chine design can confound mathematical prediction. So what you are left with is other factors to use in your decision process; things such as aesthetics, cost to build, available materials & builder's skills, etc. There is also a difference in motion of the hull in a seaway, which is a big deal for some when they plan on sleeping aboard for days, weeks, or months at a time.

Of course, it also depends on what you are using the boat for - a boatspeed potential advantage of one second per mile will make a winner out of a highly-canvassed 'round-the-buoys racer, but will count for squat in a modestly-canvassed coastal cruiser.

So the answer is... it depends.

[MalcolmV]

So not a stupid question? Thank God, and I thought someone here would be able to tell me that maximum theoretical speed would be reduced by 7.8% !
If there is no inherent reason that Buehler's designs would be slow I want a "High Latitudes Drifter"
I've read that lapstrake boats, although they have more wetted surface and turbulence are no slower because the turbulence decreases the surface effect.
If there isn't any definite speed increase why go to the added expense of the "Y" section? Someone once calculated that if you subtracted the time it takes to earn the money to buy and maintain a car from the speed of driving it's faster to walk. If we subtract the savings in building time from the Buehlers passage time maybe the Buehlers are the faster boats.

[dm_scott]

Here is one "well build example", lol.

http://rolexsydneyhobart.com/news.asp?key=4139

[MalcolmV]

Ragtime rocks :) thanks dm_scott.

kc8pql I hope that after spending 7000 or 8000 hours building a Jenny that you have had a chance to do some sailing. Perhaps you could give us your thoughts on her speed and motion of the hull in a seaway?

Thanks

[mmd]

Malcom, as I alluded in my previous post, it is a subject that is complex enough that simple, straight-forward conclusions are usually proven erroneous. Consider, for a moment, structural strength: A flat panel has to be constructed more stoutly than a slightly curved panel to have equivalent strength, so - all other things being equal - the chine boat will be heavier than a round-bilge boat. Then, because of the shape of the hull, the hard-chine hull has less internal volume than the round-bilge one, making livability an issue. Then pile on aesthetics, hull motion in a seaway, noise at anchor, and the hard-chine hull advantage in cost-to-build starts to erode.

As has been said here and elsewhere ad infinitum, the design of a boat is an exercise in compromise; and everything is interconnected. Make one decision here, and it affects decisions all down the line. It is not a process for the easily frustrated.

[kc8pql]

kc8pql I hope that after spending 7000 or 8000 hours building a Jenny that you have had a chance to do some sailing. Perhaps you could give us your thoughts on her speed and motion of the hull in a seaway?

Thanks
See my last post in this thread:
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85404

[dm_scott]

I always thought that Maurice Griffiths did some nice hard chine designs,

http://www.eventides.org.uk/riptide.htm

http://www.eventides.org.uk/eventide.htm

[MalcolmV]

kc8pql, all I can say is WOW! You might also have mentioned the thread of interior photos.
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52998

mmd, thanks for the input, I can do alot of reading but an online seminar brings it all together. I see why kc8pql said "I'd say it's a good design if you're on big water and want to go somewhere, but probably not the best choice if all you want to do is take an afternoon sail."

Buehler says the expense of a boat comes from the complexity. IMHO his designs coming from workboat roots give the amateur builder permission to aim for a workboat finish, despite the amazing job that kc8pql has done. I have neither the skill nor perseverance to attempt that quality of work. Does that mean I shouldn't build a boat? As mmd says everything is interconnected, so a lower level of finish makes sense with this design approach. I could use house paint and galvanized fitting and the boat would still look OK. Perhaps so few amateur boats actually get built because we feel we need to work to an unrealistic level of finish and complexity.

Just thinking about Buehlers' boats makes me smile. They thumb their nose at the modern rational approach to design. In the '60s they used to say that baking bread was a political act. Buehler wants me to think for myself, be independent, and have fun. These boats are so democratic, they make me think that, I, an ordinary guy could fulfill the dream of taking some lumber and creating a boat that would take me around the world.

Buehler is all about using low cost materials. Yeah, yeah the hull materials are a small part of the project cost but it is about the approach to cost control. I can buy rough tamarack for $0.60 / bdft, so the 1 1/2 inch plank would be $0.90 / bdft, even in MDO 3 layers of 3/8 inch ply would be $4.00 / sq.ft. It is just too funny to think that I could start by going to a local sawmill and end up sailing by all the glossy, white yachts in the marina.

[Paul Pless]

Buehler is all about using low cost materials. Yeah, yeah the hull materials are a small part of the project cost but it is about the approach to cost control. I can buy rough tamarack for $0.60 / bdft, so the 1 1/2 inch plank would be $0.90 / bdft, even in MDO 3 layers of 3/8 inch ply would be $4.00 / sq.ft. It is just too funny to think that I could start by going to a local sawmill and end up sailing by all the glossy, white yachts in the marina.So is now the time to introduce Malcolm to Reuel Parker?
In addition, the author (Reuel Parker) has streamlined the cold-molded process considerably, producing boats that are more economical, efficient, and sturdy--Boats built from native materials that will last the life of the builder and turn heads in harbours around the world. link (http://www.parker-marine.com/parker2_2.htm)

Buehler ain't the only one playing that game...

[MalcolmV]

Paul thanks for the reference. I've ordered a copy of "The New Cold-Molded Boatbuilding".

I'm not sure Parkers' scows and sharpies fit the sail off to Tahiti fantasy as well. Buehlers' seem a bit more "Old Man and the Sea"ish.

[Rigadog]

Paul thanks for the reference. I've ordered a copy of "The New Cold-Molded Boatbuilding".

I'm not sure Parkers' scows and sharpies fit the sail off to Tahiti fantasy as well. Buehlers' seem a bit more "Old Man and the Sea"ish.


No, but his larger Egrets, Prestos and Pilot Schooners would.