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ToddFwbf
03-17-2009, 10:45 AM
Hello,

It's been a while since I last posted about my project. I've decided to build Doug Hylan's Beach Pea in the 15 foot version. I'm setting up the molds and will be posting pictures of my progress soon. In the mean while I have a question about woods to use.

I have a calendar on my wall at home and there's this picture of a very graceful boat, or at least the bow of the boat. The wood looks to be the very color and fine grain that I would like to use on the Beach Pea but I cannot identify it. I suspect it may be teak with an oil finish which means I won't use it. I hope that some of you will offer alternatives. Here's a picture from a scan I made from the copyrighted image by James R. Taylor. (I'll delete the image once I get a couple of good answers.)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3659/3366417900_c108d101de_o.jpg

I'm thinking of the rails and "breast hook" (cap?).

Many thanks.

Todd

ToddFwbf
03-18-2009, 09:08 AM
whoaa, what happened to the image I posted?

OK, the image is back. I don't know what happened. If there is a problem viewing it here's a link http://tinyurl.com/dhvaro

I would very much appreciate any ideas folks might have.

Thanks.

Hwyl
03-18-2009, 09:11 AM
You have to put the url (photobucket or similar) of the image in the little box that looks like a yellow postcard

ToddFwbf
03-18-2009, 09:14 AM
I thought I did that and the image came through OK yesterday on my screen and appears to be back up. Can anyone else see it?

ToddFwbf
03-18-2009, 09:41 AM
OK, then what do you think this might be?

JimConlin
03-18-2009, 09:57 AM
On a yacht of that caliber, it certainly has a first-class varnish finish. I'll let others guess at the species.

On a high-finish Beach Pea, varnished mahogany, teak, ash or cherry would be OK.

ToddFwbf
03-18-2009, 10:20 AM
Teak is out of the question for me, too heavy and too expensive, mostly too expensive. Ash would be really nice but I am worried about rot resistance. Mahogany, sapele, and other dark woods are a possibility, but I'm mostly interested in lighter colored woods.

I've got a line on some old growth Port Orford cedar. Any thoughts about using this for glued stems, gunwales and breast hooks? Comparing some numbers it looks like it would withstand impacts about the same as mahogany or Douglas fir.

Thorne
03-18-2009, 12:13 PM
Tinting varnish and other clear-coatings or coloring the surface of wood is an basic part of making furniture, no reason why you couldn't do it on your boat if the PO Cedar comes out too light. Just need a coloring agent that can take UV, along with a good UV-rated varnish.

ToddFwbf
03-18-2009, 12:18 PM
Thanks Thorne. Yeah, I tint wood all the time. I'm after a very light color to begin with anyway.
Any other suggestions for wood species?

Thorne
03-18-2009, 12:59 PM
Sounds like the cedar would work well, although I dimly recall that some species are less suitable / more brittle than others. Would one of the yellow cedars be light enough in color? I've also seen some Australian red cedar in fancy hardwood stores that is highly regarded for boatbuilding (per folks on this Forum), but the stuff I saw was a fairly dark red.

ToddFwbf
03-18-2009, 01:26 PM
Thanks

ToddFwbf
03-18-2009, 03:41 PM
I changed the photo source as it seems there was some problem w/ the first one. Anyone else want to chime in? I'll leave it up for a few more days.

Stu Fyfe
03-18-2009, 04:01 PM
The rails and the breast hook on the photo are probably teak. Looks like the reflection of the sun makes it look lighter in color. I did my Beach Pea rails and breasthook out of doug fir, but I painted the whole boat in traditional colors. By the way, that photo is of a Fife yacht. You can tell by the dragon. Nothing but the finest material used on her.

ChaseKenyon
03-18-2009, 04:32 PM
Thanks Thorne. Yeah, I tint wood all the time. I'm after a very light color to begin with anyway.
Any other suggestions for wood species?

Yup you can use good old mahogany and bleach it just like Chris Craft used to for "blonde" sections of the decking. just make sure you have a good UV protection over it or it will tend to darken back up. My favorite is scraps and leftovers from commercial/condo construction stair rails and deck rails and such. Free or almost the last truckload cost me a bottle of decent Glenfiddich. I resaw and glue up what i need.

ToddFwbf
03-18-2009, 05:14 PM
Stu, yeah that was my first thought. I've seen quite light colored teak in the past. As I understand it the plantations that grow the lighter stuff are pretty much exclusive of Danish furniture manufacturers so that stuff is hard to come by these days.

Chase, thanks. I had given some thought to bleaching mahog. Scraps from construction sites? Must be you live in or near a pretty high tone neighborhood.

A friend suggested selecting D.fir for color and grain and finishing that bright. Says it was quite popular for varnished floors not long ago in Eastern VA.

TerryLL
03-18-2009, 05:16 PM
Did I miss something here? Hylan's Beach Pea is designed for glued-lap plywood construction. So, are we talking about building this design in solid wood?

Dennis of Douglas
03-18-2009, 05:42 PM
Good day. Interesting thread!! I've refinished my own (not wooden) Regal's teak as well as some other freinds of mine. I always use Sikkens Cetol Marine . The finish seems to easily last 5 years. I'm surprised that it has not been mentioned.

Your photo sure looks like teak to me. Cherry is beautiful and much cheaper than teak. I just finished carving a one piece beaver tail paddle for my wife from cherry, finished it with many handrubbed coats of Birchwood Casey's Tru-Oil gunstock finish, came out nice.

Regards, Dennis of Douglas

ToddFwbf
03-19-2009, 09:22 AM
Did I miss something here? Hylan's Beach Pea is designed for glued-lap plywood construction. So, are we talking about building this design in solid wood?

Terry, no. I'm asking about the wood for gunwales, breast hooks, stems, thwarts and stern sheets. I'll paint the ply.

ToddFwbf
03-19-2009, 09:39 AM
~snip~

Your photo sure looks like teak to me. Cherry is beautiful and much cheaper than teak. I just finished carving a one piece beaver tail paddle for my wife from cherry, finished it with many handrubbed coats of Birchwood Casey's Tru-Oil gunstock finish, came out nice.

Regards, Dennis of Douglas

Dennis, I agree that cherry is beautiful, but it darkens too much when exposed to light for what I'm looking for.

BTW, there is a very interesting article by Richard Jagels in WoodenBoat #148 (pp.111,112) titled "Soft Hardwoods and Hard Softwoods" that I've just re-read. In it he discusses the advantages of stiffness, or MOE, of composite conifers over some hardwoods in certain uses versus the advantages of the toughness of hardwoods in other uses. Toughness is not a commonly measured strength property he notes so it's not easy to compare. I don't want to hijack my own thread here but I'll add this quote: "Other boat components such as planking and gunwales survive longest if they retain some flexibility. Woods that can sustain impact loads, such as pounding seas, are those with some flexibility and a partner property called toughness, meaning strength under a rapidly applied load."

The reason this interests me in particular is that I had been thinking about impact resistance as a major concern for the gunwales. I was worried about crushing and denting. It appears that "toughness" should also be considered.

I feel a little like I'm backing into a corner in this search. I want a light colored wood, attractive when varnished, resistant to rot, light weight, tough, and not too expensive (say somewhere under $6/brdft). I don't ask for too much do I?

jclays
03-19-2009, 10:23 AM
Use V-grain Doug Fir. You can find very light colored pieces. Sometime will give off a redish gold tint when varnished. Beautiful....

ToddFwbf
03-19-2009, 11:01 AM
Thanks!

hwsiii
03-19-2009, 08:37 PM
Todd, douglas fir has an excellent strength to weight ratio, and has very high fiber stress relative to bending, compression, tension and sheer as well as elasticity in deflection to a load. The one downfall that I have seen is it tends to check badly if it is not well maintained, and that can make it look very bad and a lot of work if you dont take care of it. Hope this helps.



H

mcdenny
03-19-2009, 09:32 PM
How about white oak? Fits all your criteria except light weight but it couldn't add more than a pound or two to your finished boat compared to d fir.

SailorBob
03-19-2009, 11:52 PM
... Hi ... The image of the graceful bow of that pic by Taylor came through ok ... but I'm somewhat confused by your reference to "the wood" ... exactly what wood are you referring to? ... The Bowsprit? ... The Cap-Rail? or, ... The Gun'l? ...

... In my opinion, the latter looks more like Alaskan Yellow Cedar. ... The Cap-Rail is difficult to identify because of the oblique angle of the flat surface to the camera lens, and the edge is impossible to view closely. As for the 'Sprit, it too could be Yellow Cedar or, even DF.

... The cap piece on the yellow dagger board looks more like Phillipine Mahogany to me. I'm going by the grain of the wooden 'eyes' for the rope lifting handle.

... In fact, none of the photo examples look anything like teak to me. But there again, sometimes it is impossible to tell unless one is looking at the 'real thing'.

... I offered my comments because, I have recently finished the entire interior of my Falmouth cutter in Teak and Yellow cedar, and the last job performed was a complete Teak deck, including the Cockpit seats and Coamming Caps ... having recently spent so much money on it, I'm certain I can recognize both Teak and Yellow Cedar.

... As for PM ... many woods are advertised as 'Mahogany' and frequently are. But I can tell you, it takes a person with years of experience to identify these woods correctly.

... Phillipine Mahogany can be a pinkish to golden colour and has a distinctive grain pattern.I consider it to be a relatively 'soft' wood, while African Mahogany is dark red to brown.

... I have three pieces of African, approx. 8' x 12" x a full 2" thick rough cut, the other two being 5' and 6' long ... same width and thickness. One of these days, I'll find a use for it.

... I've thickness planed one of the shorter lengths. it's absolutely clear, straight grained and unblemished. It's the colour that makes it so attractive. Such a rich dark red.

... Anyway, that's my two cents worth. Can't be more positive without seeing the actual material.

... If you can't afford teak, go with 'export grade' Yellow Cedar. Great to work with, clear and finishes a beautiful light golden colour. Which reminds me ... I have a load of that in storage at one of my sons' place. All pretty much 1" boards of various widths, and lengths.

... My teak deck cost me $25/brd. ft. ... but it's worth it. The finished job makes the boat look like a million bucks.
... ... ... ... ... Oh, wait a minute, that's what it cost me ... :):):)

Ron Williamson
03-20-2009, 05:02 AM
Sassafras
R

ToddFwbf
03-20-2009, 09:38 AM
Thanks all.

I had thought of white oak but was concerned about the problems regarding gluing w/ epoxy. W. oak is readily available here.

A. yellow cedar may be a good option for me. It certainly sounds nice. I think I can lay my hands on some from a sawyer up state. I'm just waiting for some prices from him now.

I've found a local source for v.g. douglas fir. They sell 2x6's 8' to 16' long, clear. Long lengths would save some scarfing although I wonder if it may be a tad too stiff for gunwales. I like the idea of picking the stuff up myself from the yard.

Sassafras? I like the color and grain but hadn't even thought of it for boat building. A quick check at the fpl site shows it to be durable. I'll check some of the strength numbers and for sources. I wonder what it costs.

BTW, this forum is really great. I appreciate all of the input.

2MeterTroll
03-20-2009, 10:25 AM
Thanks all.

I had thought of white oak but was concerned about the problems regarding gluing w/ epoxy. W. oak is readily available here.

A. yellow cedar may be a good option for me. It certainly sounds nice. I think I can lay my hands on some from a sawyer up state. I'm just waiting for some prices from him now.

I've found a local source for v.g. douglas fir. They sell 2x6's 8' to 16' long, clear. Long lengths would save some scarfing although I wonder if it may be a tad too stiff for gunwales. I like the idea of picking the stuff up myself from the yard.

Sassafras? I like the color and grain but hadn't even thought of it for boat building. A quick check at the fpl site shows it to be durable. I'll check some of the strength numbers and for sources. I wonder what it costs.

BTW, this forum is really great. I appreciate all of the input.

IMO DF is fine for gunnels just watch your runout.

georgel
03-20-2009, 10:48 AM
A few years back people were cutting a lot of yew trees for taxol, which was extracted from the bark. What ever happened to the logs. I have often wondered. It would be a wonderful wood.

kayaker 72
03-20-2009, 11:14 AM
In Georgia we use a lot of cypress which meets most of your requirements. I use it in kayak building all of the time and it has always aged with that dark, honey colored brown that looks so good.

ToddFwbf
03-23-2009, 10:23 AM
Many thanks one and all. I'll keep posting progress. But, I'm going to delet the photo as I don't have the copyright to it.