Use of boat boat nails

[longfellow]

The plans that I am working from call out traditional boat nails in many places. I ordered and have subsequently done some testing with Tremont Boat Nails (and Shingle nails which are just thinner versions with the same design) with disappointing results. In short, these fasteners do not even hold as well as common nails. I have used a variety of pilot hole diameters, as well as multiple diameter holes and even tested without a pilot hole. All results are similar. There is minimal tensile (pull apart) force required to get the boards to start to separate and once they do, it is all lost for holding power. How am I to trust these fasteners, forexample, in the critical hood end fastening of carvel planks, with performance like this? Am I doing something wrong? I would be happy to share the detailed testing proceedure, but suffice to say, unless their strength is gained by altering the installation angle to lock the boards together (as in installing drifts through keel and deadwood) I don't know what to make of this. Incidentally, they do make great fasteners if they are clinched over as in the building of small boats with thin ribs. Their coating is extreemly tenacious and does not wipe off during clinching.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Ed

[Thorne]

What plans, and what places? Didn't know they were used un-clenched, but my only experience has been struggling with a few SB ring-shank nails during restoration -- not fun or good for the wood.

[tapsnap]

Try a different brand. Copper can be heat treated to have different bending and stiffness properties. It sounds like your nails might be too soft. Alternatively, you can try to heat treat them to harden them yourself. Not all copper is pure copper and hardness can vary.

[longfellow]

I am sorry for the confusion guys. The boat nails are called out in applications where they get driven in straight; they are not clenched. I'd rather not mention the design but that shouldn't matter. Some locations are hood ends of planks, steam-bent frame ends into the boxes in the keel, coamings, rails, ...
So again, given that there is aparently considerable trust in driving in these nails, what is going on here knowing that boards in tests can be relatively easily be pulled apart with just about every pilot hole design and size imaginable. Is it just a "strength in numbers" kind of thing? Perhaps the Tremont design is not meant for these applications even though their boat nail design is claimed to have been employed in boatbuilding for generations. ??? Thanks.

[Pernicious Atavist]

I've used a bronze nail that is notched along its shaft. It does not come out. Maybe try these from Jamestown: http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=1926&familyName=Silicon+Bronze+-+Threaded+Annular+Ring+Nails

[Thorne]

I'd rather not mention the design but that shouldn't matter.

??????

I'd rather not guess as to why you are using Tremont nails, but if the plans / design and materials are a secret, can't go much further...

Simple solution -- for locations where you won't/can't clench boat nails, use SB screws like everyone else, or SB ring-nails (although I hates 'em, I does).

[sdowney717]

use ring shanks and how can it ever be repaired except for destroying the planks?
I have saved some teak decking by destroying the pine the ring shanks were nailed into.

[reddog]

longfellow,my question would be why are you using a galvanized boat nail for this application?My experience with these nails is that they were used to fasten air dried or steamed materials.For example planking to frames where they would typically be clenched over.Or frame ends into the keel and dead wood.Pilot holes were not used just drive 'em in.Once they have been in a piece of oak for a while they are the devil to pull.The rectangular tapered shank and chisel point are supposed to shear the wood fibres allowing them to grip the galvanized shank rather than wedge and split the wood.These days,unless you are building a historical replica or doing a repair some of the alternatives already mentioned may be a better choice.What's your design?

Earl

[BrianM]

I believe holding power is also influenced by the species of wood they are driven into, and the relative humidity >>>> which influences how much "Springback" the fibers have.

Wood fibers when mobile, can/will creep back along the nail and the friction force goes up. Time is an element you haven't mentioned in your tests.

[longfellow]

Earl and Brian,
Good point about the time factor. Maybe I should just drive them in and trust that they will do what these fasteners are reported to have done for so many years. Also true is that they have sufficient beam strength that I have driven them in successfully with NO pilot hole; yes in to oak straight as an arrow with no buckling. They are pretty remarkable in this respect although they still pull out- not neearly as easily though. I'll drive maybe a series of them through a simulated assembly of soft planking and then oak to represent a stem or keel, and see how a more realistic assembly holds together. Insertion angle may also make more of a difference than I give it credit for. I think that there is just a learning curve; one that isn't needed for those who jump right to screws or ring nails. I was just hoping for one of the (respectfully called) 'old timers' to chime in and give me a lesson on their use. They sure were popular in their day and according to Tremont are still being bought up by active boatbuilders in fair quantities.
Thanks guys.

[Bill Mercer]

I have heard that the zinc coating reacts with oak, and after a period of time (weeks? dunno) becomes very, very difficult to pull out. On the other hand, oak will also eat ferrous fasteners much more quickly than most softwoods.

Where's Nordicthug? I think he works on/used to work on old galvanized-fastened workboats; he probably knows more than most. Bob Smalser might have some longer-term experience too. Heck, we must have some other folks on the forum who've worked on older galvanized-fastened boats.

[Bob Smalser]

It's not clear to me what nail you are using, and how dry the wood is you're nailing. My family built dozens of boats using nails, but I never saw one of these "boat nails" being hawked today. Maybe they used them in New England, but we didn't and might not have even if they were available. Even in the 1950's, cut nails cost more than wire nails.

http://www.tinytimbers.com/tremont/tremont_boat.jpg

Is this Tremont nail a square nail like a forged nail, or relatively flat like most cut nails? Either way, it doesn't have much of a head relative to that bulge in the shank, does it? That bulge costs you a lot of holding power until the wood fibers cut by the nail recover and shrink around it in seasonal movement.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/woeimages/hardware/50989-1.jpg

This pic shows a chisel point clearly. If these are supposed to be used like flat, cut nails, the flat point is placed across the grain to cut the grain as it is driven and the nail driven without a pilot hole. Not having to drill a pilot hole to prevent splitting is the main reason cut nails are used. With such a wide point on the nail, if you drilled a pilot hole sufficiently large to control the direction of the point, the hole would adversely affect the nail's holding power.

We used greenish oak, airdried cedar and common or box galvanized nails with small....1/8" or smaller....pilot holes driven slightly over-deep. Just enough pilot hole to keep the point of the nail straight, and sometimes a bigger hole in the cedar if it was exceptionally dry. After a season in the shrinking green oak, the nails had to be cut off to remove a plank. Which is why I prefer bronze ring-shank today.....they have the same big heads as common galvy nails but are much easier to cut in repairs. Sometimes it's even easier than removing screws.

[longfellow]

That's the nail Bob, or very close to it. Incredibly thick and durable (from yet more testing involving soaking small assemblies in water for months) galvanized coating. However Tremont does it, they are obviously serious about providing a genuine boatbuilding fastener. I am going to proceed given that there seems to be much to gain in holding power, once the assembly 'ages' and the mechanisms described here start to take effect.
Ed

[reddog]

Ed,any pictures of your project?

Earl

[longfellow]

Sure Earl. Here's the last (and first) boat that I just completed. My question pertains to my second boat, the one that I am lofting now and I wasn't sure which you were curious about.
Ed

[Thermo]

My Wharram plans called for copper nails (tacks, really, not ringnails) to be used to hold buttstraps on plywood. I found some at the bigbox and tossed em in.

Well, you're not supposed to clench them, they're just supposed to really keep the buttstrap from sliding around while the glue cures, then you're supposed to clip off the points that come through the other side and file them down flush.

Imagine my horror when clipping the tips off to discover that copper nails and copper coated nails are 2 different things. Now I have what appear to be blunt steel ends of nails exposed on the outside of the hull. I only hope that the glassing and the multiple layers of goo seal them off. I'm considering drilling all of them out and plugging the holes with dowels now that the buttstraps are set.

[Thorne]

My Wharram plans called for copper nails (tacks, really, not ringnails) to be used to hold buttstraps on plywood. I found some at the bigbox and tossed em in.
...snip...
Imagine my horror when clipping the tips off to discover that copper nails and copper coated nails are 2 different things.

This is like the third post in two days describing issues with buying products for boat-building at big box stores -- all so far have been either a waste of money or actually caused problems like above.

As I said in the other posts, you really really have to know your products well before you can safely buy stuff at auto parts and big box stores -- otherwise it is FAR cheaper in the end to support your local chandlery or good hardware store.

I suspect the copper-coated nails are targeted for roofers working on the cheap, where copper nails are spec'd but they want to cut costs...who knew?

[erster]

The design does dictate what you use especially in the area of nails and fasteners. Scantlings, frames or jigs and building forms does not always allow you to drive fasteners in place even if holes are predrilled. To get an accurate or better reply, your plan and boat is important. For instance a strip canoe versus a forty foot strip plank or carvel planked hull changes a lot of things. Sure if this proposed build and design is one thats thought about in the middle of the night also lends credence to the idea that further discussion is more important than ever too.;) Varibles can change numerous specs here.

[Thad Van Gilder]

Ed,
I have worked on many of the local garvey's that were more or less solid cedar planked and framed, and were mainly nailed with galvanized boat nails.

My feelings are that the nails really get their grip on the wood after they start rusting. by that time you have the rust in the wood that bleeds out every year, and you have a mess.

For a small boat, why not just spring the extra few bucks for bronze? I am very curious about a designer that specs steel boat nails. you see galvy boat nails called for on 70 year old boat designs, but those boat nails are not the same as are available now. It worries me that there are designers out there that don't know this.

-Thad

[Thad Van Gilder]

Let me back up one step to be fair.

I didn't see you are in the finger lakes. Freshwater lakes are not the same as salty coastal waters. I have no idea how long galvanized steel boat nails last in freshwater.

-Thad

[longfellow]

Erster,
Good point about needing to know the design. Well, it is a cedar planked, oak framed (bent) daysailer with oak keel/apron/deadwood/floor construction. Deck beams, clamps and most other framing is fir (though I plan to use YP). Very traditional all around. I think I already listed quite a few locations where the boat nails are called out. I did however, find a supplier of copper nails who lists them in their catalog as 'boat nails,' probably because of the traditional diamond head. For all I know the desiger of my sloop meant copper. Just a thought. I am not a naval architect though and copper and steel have different enough strength properties that I suspect they are not always interchangable (steel-to-copper of course). Then again, since everywhere that real strength is needed, there are appropriately heavy fasteners called out, perhaps even if the designer meant steel, I could actually swap in copper boat nails? I have started messing around with scrap pieces and galvanized Tremont nails and if everything goes well, I am going to stick with the plans. Why din't I just use Si bronze? Simple. My first boat was put together in the most traditional way and she is as tough as (boat) nails and is truly a living tribute to the minimalist's philosophy of years gone by; "Use sound materials, good workmanship, and a hell of a boat can bebuilt without goop, expensive fasteners, or glue. She never saw a dab of sealant and her laps are tight as a drum with just good bevels and gains and plain old copper rivets. I intend to continue to follow this philosophy. No offense intended towards the 'glue buckets.'
Thanks again all.

[erster]

Erster,
Good point about needing to know the design. Well, it is a cedar planked, oak framed (bent) daysailer with oak keel/apron/deadwood/floor construction. Deck beams, clamps and most other framing is fir (though I plan to use YP). Very traditional all around. I think I already listed quite a few locations where the boat nails are called out. I did however, find a supplier of copper nails who lists them in their catalog as 'boat nails,' probably because of the traditional diamond head. For all I know the desiger of my sloop meant copper. Just a thought. I am not a naval architect though and copper and steel have different enough strength properties that I suspect they are not always interchangable (steel-to-copper of course). Then again, since everywhere that real strength is needed, there are appropriately heavy fasteners called out, perhaps even if the designer meant steel, I could actually swap in copper boat nails? I have started messing around with scrap pieces and galvanized Tremont nails and if everything goes well, I am going to stick with the plans. Why din't I just use Si bronze? Simple. My first boat was put together in the most traditional way and she is as tough as (boat) nails and is truly a living tribute to the minimalist's philosophy of years gone by; "Use sound materials, good workmanship, and a hell of a boat can bebuilt without goop, expensive fasteners, or glue. She never saw a dab of sealant and her laps are tight as a drum with just good bevels and gains and plain old copper rivets. I intend to continue to follow this philosophy. No offense intended towards the 'glue buckets.'
Thanks again all.


While you cover a lot of points, your yellow pine and fingerlakes really threw me for a loop.:confused: But anyhow, this section in particular is a bit of double talk.


"Use sound materials, good workmanship, and a hell of a boat can bebuilt without goop, expensive fasteners, or glue. She never saw a dab of sealant and her laps are tight as a drum with just good bevels and gains and plain old copper rivets. I intend to continue to follow this philosophy. No offense intended towards the 'glue buckets.'
Thanks again all.

Without expensive fasteners, but yet you are making claims that you want a truely authenic boat and want it to also last a life time and beyond. But I ask you in today's world, why in the world would you want to short change in one of the last line of defense especially when you are claiming that your boats are top shelf? I say this thread is toast for me unless you go a bit further and tell us if you have also discussed this with the plan designers too? I mean you do not know what the designer meant?


And who is the designer? Most here left that are seasoned wooden boat guys know many of the pedigree traditonal guys. And for one, I frankly know of no traditional designer that forgos some form of joint seaming along with quality fasteners. We also know that there are boats built without fasteners too, only trunnels. But the boats are also built pretty heavy too.

[ssor]

I recovered quite a few nails from an old farm house ruin this past fall. Some of the nails were straight taper cut nails with a substantial head and some of the shape in the posted picture they seem to have been use interchangably. The size is about 40 penny and while the timber has turned into humus and the nails are very rusty they are still very robust.
My experience with galvanized round nails in outdoor construction has been that a badly driven nail can be pulled quite easily today but if I wait until monday I may pull the head off in pressure treated SYP. In oak I have trouble driving round nails.

[longfellow]

ssor,
This seems to be the consensus among the respondents, that is to just give the assembly some time, let the wood do what it will- naturally and you will have a heck of a tight assembly with this type of nail. Your experience supports this theory and I am sure that one can build without compromise using good quality, galvanized boat nails.
I think we've unraveled the mystery folks.
Thanks all for the input.