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2MeterTroll
03-08-2009, 03:50 PM
Bear with me on this.

I am building a thirty foot sampan trying to use traditional plank joining.
this means that (as far as my research has shown) the planks are pegged edge to edge with bedding compound between them. I have wood ordered but i think i will have a bit of ripping to do since i am not at all sure of how wide the planks need to be to fit the curves of this hull. The plans are for a 15 foot and i lofted them to thirty because 15 is just not very useful for what i want to do. (stolen from the cheap pages) and yes i do now own the plans.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fassitt/cranks/Blake_Sampan1.jpg




http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fassitt/cranks/Blake_Sampan2.jpg


since i have never done this particular type of construction I am a bit unsure of some of the detail's.

thanks in advance and i am sure i will have several thousand more questions.

Peerie Maa
03-08-2009, 03:57 PM
It depends on how thick your stock is, how much backing out you need to do on the inside, and how much flogging off outside, to finish at the correct thickness. The area co consider most is the tight turn at the bilge, so you can go quick out (wide plank), slowly round (narrow) and quick up.

How did you calculate the scantlings to suit the big increase in size?

2MeterTroll
03-08-2009, 04:26 PM
It depends on how thick your stock is, how much backing out you need to do on the inside, and how much flogging off outside, to finish at the correct thickness. The area co consider most is the tight turn at the bilge, so you can go quick out (wide plank), slowly round (narrow) and quick up.

How did you calculate the scantlings to suit the big increase in size?

well from the look she really has no tight turns to the bilge at least not as tight as some i have done. I am going with 1" 5/8th inside planed planking that gives me 5/8" to play with. I had figured to reduce the width in the turn but one consideration is how the boat will look with wide verses narrow plank. I want to finish some of it bright.

as for the scantlings I am going 2"X6" floors and frames in my lumber order on the thirty foot. which is very much larger than it needs. there really is not much to this sampan mostly it is hull and bulkheads.

The way i am going to make that judgment is that i am going to build one directly off the plans as Blake drew them up in china off the hull. Blakes drawing is of a 15 foot boat. then I will make the scantling decision. There really is no better option since these where never made from a paper plan.

this is somewhat the difficulty with trying to build in the traditional methods because almost all I have been able to find is conjecture. I am going to have to noodle my way around, trying to forget the western boat building model. I have managed this with skin on frame construction and now i want to try something a bit different. :D

Thad
03-08-2009, 04:42 PM
Great looking boat and fun project. Keep asking questions and coming up with answers. Make it work.

WX
03-08-2009, 05:18 PM
I'm not sure if you plan to Junk rig her but you might find some interesting info/help through the JR forum.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/

2MeterTroll
03-08-2009, 05:50 PM
Oh ya I love my junk rig :D
thanks for the link

JimD
03-08-2009, 08:34 PM
My research has shown you're out of your mind.

2MeterTroll
03-08-2009, 08:49 PM
was in my mind once JimD, got boring after a while. so i went wandering.
I think i like it better out here.

JimD
03-08-2009, 08:57 PM
was in my mind once JimD, got boring after a while. so i went wandering.
I think i like it better out here.

:) So seriously, you are just doubling all the linear measurements and are gonna somehow figger out how to trunnel it all up into a boat? It won't be boring when it falls apart on you.;) Built lots of other boats by other means, I presume?

2MeterTroll
03-08-2009, 10:04 PM
ah
no JimD i am not just stretching the boat to thirty feet. the width, length, free board, internal volumes, center of gravity turn of the bilge, rocker, bulk head placement, &c. all have to be figured you also have to think the weight out and reposition the mast and dagger board, floors, rails, decks, how the whole boat will Interact with the water air interface. water lines, prime and secondary stability factors in the average weather conditions as well those that fall outside the norm. then figure where all the stuff goes that you are required to have.
the only real magic trick is that i am going to do it in my head and hands.

The 15 foot directly off the line plan will be the model because only a fool would try to nail all this down with out seeing how this hull will flex, twist, bend, pound, roll, warp, and all the other things boats do when under way.

I guess i am out of my mind :D

RFNK
03-08-2009, 10:36 PM
If you need any photos of working sampans, let me know! Rick

2MeterTroll
03-08-2009, 10:51 PM
Rick i would love photos of working sampans :)

close ups of various boat bits would be good to while i am dreaming.
Thanks in advance.

JimD
03-09-2009, 12:09 AM
I keep threatening to junk rig one of my little plywood boats. Perhaps this year I'll get around to it. Got a sail plan in mind, 2MT ?

RFNK
03-09-2009, 01:07 AM
Rick i would love photos of working sampans


OK I'll trawl through the photo collection and see what I can find. Rick

2MeterTroll
03-09-2009, 01:23 AM
yep the 15 foot will have a single stick as drawn with a little rake to it. six panel junk rig. I am figuring about 8' X 12' about 90 sq foot of area kinda large but easy enough to reef if i need to. and if its to small i can add a panel. I like the fuller rounded style of sail with the high rake to the upper battens. I might double sheet this one because the sheets can get hung on the battens at times

I might make another sail in the dragon wing configuration just to see if i can and how a wing sail works.

the 30 foot I figure two sails a main and fore to cut the weight of the main down a bit.

I love the junk rig.... mostly cause i am lazy i see no need to jump up and run around doing this and that when all i have to do is move the tiller :)

JimD
03-09-2009, 10:51 AM
... I like the fuller rounded style of sail with the high rake to the upper battens. I might double sheet this one because the sheets can get hung on the battens at times


the 30 foot I figure two sails a main and fore to cut the weight of the main down a bit.

I love the junk rig.... mostly cause i am lazy i see no need to jump up and run around doing this and that when all i have to do is move the tiller :)

Love the junk, too. Especially the low aspect fan shape, double sheeted. But keep in mind on a small, narrow hull you might have a hard time sorting things out so the sheets can be long enough unless you make the panels very narrow, meaning lots of battens. And a jib on a well canted mast in the bow looks so cool. Not sure what this oddball is:

http://www.wright.edu/~guy.vandegrift/Resume/junkboat.gif

Bigger

http://yachtpals.com/files/userimages/tai%20shan%204.jpg

JimD
03-09-2009, 10:52 AM
Have you read this book? I have not:

http://ak.buy.com/db_assets/large_images/506/203527506.jpg

Although I have designed a few junk sails from the Hasler/McCloud book.

https://is30.eporia.com/company_28/45631.jpg

JimD
03-09-2009, 11:18 AM
If I were considering a 30 footer I would be looking at a deeper, tubbier hull design such as:

http://www.friend.ly.net/users/dadadata/junk/sampan_lines.gif
http://www.friend.ly.net/users/dadadata/junk/bow.gif
http://www.friend.ly.net/users/dadadata/junk/sampan_photo1.gif
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.friend.ly.net/users/dadadata/junk/sampan_profile.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.friend.ly.net/users/dadadata/junk/sampan.html&usg=__vKP8IZ0cZDaiLeMvRH9WIvj6ZfE=&h=317&w=594&sz=17&hl=en&start=31&tbnid=6-hwB34IlUlxrM:&tbnh=72&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsampan%2Bjunks%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20% 26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D20

rather than the lines you have chosen which will result in something more like a big skiff.

2MeterTroll
03-09-2009, 12:52 PM
Thanks JimD yep i have read those books and practically everything i could find on the net in both English and Chinese.

I picked the blake design because the thirty foot will be purpose built. and a tubbier hull wont work for what it will be doing. the idea is to cut my teeth on a couple sampans and then do a 50 foot junk. that is in the future so i am just looking at hulls now and not doing to much dreaming.

Bob Cleek
03-09-2009, 12:58 PM
First off, stretching a fifteen foot punt to a thirty foot boat isn't going to translate very well at all. It's not a direct proportion. You're going to have weight and stability issues to work out, big time. Additionally, there is a world of engineering difference between sampans and junks. It's not just a matter of size.

As for your caulking question, yes, the planks are set edge to edge with tenons, sort of like bisquit joinery. The caulking is made up of oakum like hemp fibre and seeds, which supposedly swell a lot and close up the seams. Good luck ordering marijuana seeds from WestMarine!

That said, Asian boat construction is, like Asian writing, completely indecipherable to the uninitiated. Deceptively simple, but the devil's in the details. If you are really serious about this, plan on a LONG learning curve. There aren't a lot of Asian boatbuilders around here you can seek out for help.

But, if you must, check out the San Francisco Maritime Historical Park. http://www.nps.gov/archive/safr/more_junk.html

http://www.nps.gov/safr/local/graphics/Boatyard.jpg

They're the only ones I know of who have attempted to traditionally build a junk recently in the US. She's at the Hyde Street Pier in SF. The "Grace Quan" is a replica of SF Bay shrimping junks which were active in the late 1800's and early 1900's when there was a large Chinese shrimping industry on the Bay. She's built of redwood, surprisingly, as were the originals.

http://www.nps.gov/safr/local/graphics/Junk%20Sail_2004.jpg

If I were you, I wouldn't even consider building any sort of Asian small craft by traditional methods without obtaining and studying carefully, "Junks and Sampans of the Yangtze River" by George R.G. Worchester. Worchester was a British Customs agent in the twenties and thirties and extensively cataloged Chinese junks and sampans, much in the same way that Howard Chapelle and the WPA Historic Merchant Marine Survey did here in the US. This large book (actually three volumes in the original printing), it may cost you several hundred dollars, but it is essential. It is the only known complete compendium with complete plans, scantlings, construction techniques and so on covering all the various types, small and large. If you are lucky, you may find a copy of the 1970's reprint by the Naval Institute Press for somewhere around $300 or $400. Sorry, but ya gotta have it or you're just pissing in the wind.

2MeterTroll
03-09-2009, 01:44 PM
Bob you are the second person who has warned me about just stretching the boat. :) Thank you.
I am not just stretching the boat and hopeing. i have been working on sizing that sampan for 5 months at least an hour a day, every day. I have just not figured the scantlings because I think that sailing a smaller one will give me the data i need to make the correct decisions when i do. I know it will be a long learning curve because i have to learn a different way of thinking about how boats are built. i have done this in several other arenas already. this is a new challenge. for me this is a continuation of a course i set several years ago.

I live in oregon, hemp seeds are not a problem... LOL. however I am not opposed to epoxy or 5200 just like SOF boats there are places that you depart from tradition because the materials are no longer get able or what we use now is by far the better choice.

It is costing me several hundred Bob and I agree with you. I have read it and will be owning a copy soon. (the bloody book is on order; till it gets in my hands i am borrowing a copy)
I have spent ten years in research and figure to spend several more in building. my one advantage is i live in Portland and may have some access to Chinese boat builders through the community here. the lynch pin is getting them to talk to me and the only way i know to do that is to put a boat in the water that shows i am serious. (we have a community here around dragon boating and several of those have been made by the chinese folks here but they didn't come out till a boat was actually on the water)
I don't speak Chinese what i do speak is sailor and fishermen. both of those languages are spoken with the hands.

I regards to pissing in the wind; I don't like wet pant legs. :D

2MeterTroll
03-09-2009, 02:07 PM
I am asking questions here because there is more boat building experiance in this one place than any number of books on the subject. Please don't think i am being flip when i answer a question or a point.
I have read everything i could get my hands on about building junks and sampans; as was said the devils are in the details and i am hunting those devils.

gert
03-09-2009, 02:17 PM
Good luck ordering marijuana seeds from WestMarine!


As a BCer how could I resist ;):

https://www.miraclesource.com/cart.php?m=product_list&c=8&gclid=CObC-K7HlpkCFRBbagodxhFTZg

$8.99 lb ;they ship to the States too :D

2MeterTroll
03-09-2009, 02:22 PM
he he he he thanks Gert

WX
03-09-2009, 05:09 PM
2MT, Join the JR forum and go to Files and look at Arne's articles on building sails with camber. His writings are worth their weight in gold.

johnw
03-09-2009, 06:22 PM
Bob, I sold a copy of Junks of the Yangtze today for $100. You can find a copy without a dust jacket for that (I don't have another copy, except my own.)

William Maxwell Blake didn't show a junk rig for that particular design, just a lug rig with spars at top and bottom. As for edge fastening, they've got this stuff called strip planking...

2MeterTroll
03-09-2009, 06:39 PM
nope just a single stick the rig i am taking off of some 1940s pictures of this style boat.
however i am not at all sure how accurate the photos are of what they really used. hongkong being slightly touristy at the time

johnw
03-09-2009, 07:38 PM
When I was in Hong Kong in the 1960s, there were still sailing fishing boats. Of course, Blake was in Singapore, and rigs there may have differed.

RFNK
03-09-2009, 09:02 PM
Rick i would love photos of working sampans


Sorry, couldn't get to this yesterday and I'll be away for the next few days. I'll dig out the photos on the weekend. The pictures I have are all of current boats in Vietnam. They don't sail anymore, they all have engines, so they'll be of no help re rigging. Rick

2MeterTroll
03-09-2009, 09:40 PM
Rick NO problem at all. ive got time.

JohnW have run into so many different rigs from china that i just finally picked the one i like that works at sea.

Thank you all for the input and please keep it coming.

Bob Cleek
03-09-2009, 10:40 PM
Ok, 2meter, if you've heard of the book and you've ordered a copy, then you've passed the first part of the test. LOL

Now, my next question is this: I understand that you've spend a lot of time at the drawing board working on this boat... BUT... and I've asked this of everybody I have ever met who attempted to design their own boat who wasn't in the boat designing business to begin with...

Do you really think you can design a better boat as an amateur... or, as here, as has evolved in use by highly experienced mariners over centuries?

I find it hard to imagine that you wouldn't find close to exactly the boat you want and need... i.e. right size, right hull for the waters you plan to sail, and all the rest, in Worchester's book. You would know you were building a proven pedigreed design. You wouldn't risk building a cranky boat or ending up with something you couldn't give away when you were done with her. "I designed and built it myself" is NOT a big selling point. "It's an historic replica of a whatever...." on the other hand, IS a big selling point and will make your boat a very interesting and valuable artifact.

Just a thought. Remember, the sea has a way of humbling the proudest of men.

2MeterTroll
03-10-2009, 12:36 AM
Ok, 2meter, if you've heard of the book and you've ordered a copy, then you've passed the first part of the test. LOL

Now, my next question is this: I understand that you've spend a lot of time at the drawing board working on this boat... BUT... and I've asked this of everybody I have ever met who attempted to design their own boat who wasn't in the boat designing business to begin with...

Do you really think you can design a better boat as an amateur... or, as here, as has evolved in use by highly experienced mariners over centuries?

ok im gonna deal with this in two parts because I think this is a most fair question.
1. do i think i can build a better boat than a professional boat designer of today? Yes i do! hands down.

2. than the highly experienced mariners that conceptualized and built these boats? No! all i can do is hope to stand on their shoulders.



I find it hard to imagine that you wouldn't find close to exactly the boat you want and need... i.e. right size, right hull for the waters you plan to sail, and all the rest, in Worchester's book. You would know you were building a proven pedigreed design. You wouldn't risk building a cranky boat or ending up with something you couldn't give away when you were done with her. "I designed and built it myself" is NOT a big selling point. "It's an historic replica of a whatever...." on the other hand, IS a big selling point and will make your boat a very interesting and valuable artifact.

Just a thought. Remember, the sea has a way of humbling the proudest of men.

Bob I have looked for ten years for exactly what i need to do the job. the whole job from how much wood it uses to how high up a river it can go, what kind of rapids it can take and how big of seas it will handle to what the boat will look like. i have looked at dory's, drifters, sleds, umiaks, kayaks, canoes, prams, small sloops, old river boats, pe-roes (sp), plugs, multi hulls, cat boat, beetles, on and on and on. if i can figure out how to post a picture on this site i will show you the contenders in the final cut. most of those small boats i have either built or i have found someone who has had the boat and taken a ride or six in it.

I don't take it lightly that i am going to enlarge a boat and i really appreciate that you are asking this kind of question. it makes my rethink my motivations and what i want the boat to do.

finally: the sea rewards those who are humble and work within her rules.

RFNK
03-10-2009, 02:44 AM
Your statement about taking the boat up the river reminds me of an event that's supposed to have happened twice in Vietnam's history, many centuries ago. The Vietnamese army defending itself from Chinese invasion, enticed the Chinese fleet of fairly large craft up the river (I could look up the names etc. but it's a river near Hai Phong, part of the Red River delta) at high tide. The Vietnamese had buried sharpened stakes in the mud right across the river, so that when the Chinese fleet tried to sail back down the river, the boats were impaled on the stakes and, of course, the Vietnamese won a famous victory. The records do show that this happened twice, with a gap of a couple of centuries or more. There's a very dramatic rendition of one of these events in a very large painting in Ha Noi's aptly named History Museum. Not a lot of red uniforms (Viet) floating in the river in that painting but, of course, lots of blue ones! Rick

2MeterTroll
03-10-2009, 03:20 AM
I live in oregon its kinda like NZ only with more trees. I no longer do oil exploration or king crabbing. how the heck am i going to afford to go hang out in Vietnam looking around a museum? :(
this is why man learned to build boats. ;)

2MeterTroll
03-10-2009, 04:57 PM
ok im gonna deal with this in two parts because I think this is a most fair question.
1. do i think i can build a better boat than a professional boat designer of today? Yes i do! hands down.

2. than the highly experienced mariners that conceptualized and built these boats? No! all i can do is hope to stand on their shoulders.



Bob I have looked for ten years for exactly what i need to do the job. the whole job from how much wood it uses to how high up a river it can go, what kind of rapids it can take and how big of seas it will handle to what the boat will look like. i have looked at dory's, drifters, sleds, umiaks, kayaks, canoes, prams, small sloops, old river boats, pe-roes (sp), plugs, multi hulls, cat boat, beetles, on and on and on. if i can figure out how to post a picture on this site i will show you the contenders in the final cut. most of those small boats i have either built or i have found someone who has had the boat and taken a ride or six in it.

I don't take it lightly that i am going to enlarge a boat and i really appreciate that you are asking this kind of question. it makes my rethink my motivations and what i want the boat to do.

finally: the sea rewards those who are humble and work within her rules.

My wife who is a very nice person and does lots of English to English translation says i need to explain the answer to question number one.

Ok it goes like this. I pay a marine architect or if you will a boat designer to check my numbers and give suggestions.
I wont pay to design a boat from scratch.

The reason i don't go in with hat in hand and have some other person design me a boat, is the boat I want is in my head. No matter how well the explanation of the boat in my head is done the boat designer has his own idea's and those will color any design he does.
Since i don't want the boat he has in his head the responsibility of doing the design is mine.
Am i better at designing my boat? yes.
Am I better at designing his boat? no.
Am i better at designing boats in general? no.

Modern designers do good work they are worth the money.
I pay them to do what they are trained to do. I just don't pay them to do my thinking for me.

JimD
03-10-2009, 06:09 PM
Your wife has done an excellent job of translating :)

PaulC
03-10-2009, 06:52 PM
Bob's comment "Do you really think you can design a better boat as an amateur... or, as here, as has evolved in use by highly experienced mariners over centuries?"

Yes, because we live in an incredibly lucky time to have all of this information right at our fingertips. Think how long it would take to be able to sift through this much information in the library of the 70's or 80's. Yes there is a lot of differing opinions and ideas, but we also have a huge array of programs for verifying the validity of an idea.

I think back to all of the things my grandfather was interested in and the lengths he had to go through to get even a sparse amount of information, he would have loved living in the information age.

He dug for weeks to get information on armillary's in the late 60's Now we google it for 201,000 hits in seconds no less.

Roger Cumming
03-10-2009, 10:24 PM
You seem impervious to the entreaties offered by those more knowledgable than you are to rethink your approach. Scaling up the plans for a 15 footer to 30 feet requires the re-engineering of the design which you are not capable of doing. I think you know that no naval architect/yacht designer would be willing to just "check my (your) numbers and make suggestions". You are reluctant to submit the design in your mind to a designer because you probably know the designer would present arguments based on the laws of physics why you would have to alter the design. You think that the design would then no longer be yours. Your contention that you can better design your boat than a boat designer reminds me of people who have asked me to design their house - they would design it themselves if they only had the time. I run the other way as fast as I can whenever I hear such nonsense.

I doubt that your approach will result in a good boat but that is only my opinion.

Canoeyawl
03-10-2009, 10:53 PM
Grace Kwan
San Francisco bay
http://web.me.com/tsbloch/Into_the_Tules/News/News_files/shapeimage_3.jpg

2MeterTroll
03-10-2009, 11:15 PM
You seem impervious to the entreaties offered by those more knowledgable than you are to rethink your approach. Scaling up the plans for a 15 footer to 30 feet requires the re-engineering of the design which you are not capable of doing. I think you know that no naval architect/yacht designer would be willing to just "check my (your) numbers and make suggestions". You are reluctant to submit the design in your mind to a designer because you probably know the designer would present arguments based on the laws of physics why you would have to alter the design. You think that the design would then no longer be yours. Your contention that you can better design your boat than a boat designer reminds me of people who have asked me to design their house - they would design it themselves if they only had the time. I run the other way as fast as I can whenever I hear such nonsense.

I doubt that your approach will result in a good boat but that is only my opinion.

god i love it when folks tell me about my self and predict what i will do. even if i have already done what they tell me i wont.

I asked a question about planking in a building forum and have now spent three days defending the back story on my decision.
I have been nice about it and tried to explain. along the way i have a hand full of folks that answered the question i asked.

I really don't give a damn what you think of my decision to expand a sampan. 5 years ago when i came to this forum the first time i got the same arguments about building SOF boats. since then i have twenty under my belt from 5 foot to 35 foot sailing craft that i get hired to take children out in. as well as several plank boats i built to understand what i was attempting in fabric. the only one to fail was the one done by committee.

Pardon me if i find your design experiance irrelevant to my current project.

I am at the edge of being really GD sick of listening to folks who neither know me nor my experiance nor history telling me what I can and cannot do with a boat i am building.

For the Record Roger i would be the last person to come ask you or anyone to design or build a house for me. I don't like McMansions.

Roger Cumming
03-11-2009, 11:43 PM
Well, you are right about McMansions - I don't like them, either.

JimD
03-12-2009, 12:10 AM
god i love it when folks tell me about my self and predict what i will do. even if i have already done what they tell me i wont.

....

Its hard to beat, I'll agree.:)

Bob Cleek
03-12-2009, 01:00 AM
Bob's comment "Do you really think you can design a better boat as an amateur... or, as here, as has evolved in use by highly experienced mariners over centuries?"

I wasn't actually referring to "a better boat than one designed by a naval architect." I was referring more to a "a better boat" already designed, or evolved as with Asian working craft. In such instance, the boat has been refined and tested and proven over time. Tried and true. That was the gist of the question.


"I am at the edge of being really GD sick of listening to folks who neither know me nor my experiance nor history telling me what I can and cannot do with a boat i am building."

Welcome to the internet! LOL What we do know about your experience and history, aside from spelling deficiencies, is that you have spent years now designing an indigenous watercraft on the premise that you are going to double the size of an existing small boat concept, and are only now asking advice regarding how those vessels are planked. Maybe you do know more than everybody else in here. It's your dime. Have a go at it. But, it's not polite to ask a question and then get pissed off when you don't get the answer you are expecting. We have all seriously spent our own time in an attempt to contribute something to your effort at your request. Maybe you'd do better in one of the other boatbuilding forums peopled by folks, like yourself, more determinedly committed to independently reinventing the wheel, or the boat as it were, than we are in here.

2MeterTroll
03-12-2009, 01:59 AM
I asked for information to refine my understanding of a building method. I thought perhaps someone here would have experiance with this method.
since you don't have any real experiance and can only pass on what you have read in a book. You decided to try to be constructive. If i didn't respect the experiance in wooden boat building here; i would not have entertained this forum for even a moment.
I neither asked nor deserved your or Rogers vitriol and until the latter decided i was not Kowtowing low enough. I was happy to listen and take from what you wrote; the things i could use.

You seem to think that you are an authority on how to build and design boats; so much so that you eschew research or careful study; in fact you ridicule it. That is your right. thank you for the little time you spent.
Please i implore you put me on your ignore list; you are truly going on mine.

johnw
03-12-2009, 12:56 PM
I say, go for it, troll. You might want to stick with a building method you're comfortable with if you can't get enough information about traditional Chinese methods. On the other hand, if you contact the folks who built the Grace Kwan, you might learn everything you need to know.

The design Blake documented is about 20 feet, by the way. I bought the plans years ago from the Smithsonian. I think about 10-15 years ago someone built a replica in England, but I can't find anything on it.

Bob Cleek
03-12-2009, 01:18 PM
"...since you don't have any real experiance and can only pass on what you have read in a book."

I haven't the time or energy to get into a pissing contest with a skunk. However, as a yacht broker years ago, I did have occasion to sell three or four Asian built Asian watercraft. I've surveyed a couple, observed plank repairs on one, and sailed several. In fact, at one point, I almost bought a twenty-five foot sailing sampan on my own account.

I don't know a whole lot about Asian boats and Asian boatbuilding. What little I do know leads me to conclude that while your efforts are no doubt satisfying and enjoyable to you, given your attitude, the odds of your success aren't promising.

2MeterTroll
03-12-2009, 01:30 PM
19'6" for some reason i have 15 foot stuck in my head every time i put down the plans.
I think i am getting buggy.
just pulled my set again since i am lofting this first build, to the lines.

Ah thats why i have 15 feet in my head. the replica of this boat was built smaller to fit the size regs of a race. or so my notes say.
it seems it did Ok but i have yet to dig up photos of this boat. there are several places that it has been spoken of. the boat that was taken off the plans was named the Yam Seng it was written up in classic boat. yam seng is a cheer so looking for information is like a long stroll through drunken revelry.

johnw
03-12-2009, 01:42 PM
Yes, it was in Classic boat that I read about it.

sidsail
03-12-2009, 02:32 PM
2MeterTroll, I find your plans intriguing to expand an existing plan from 15, 19 feet to 30 feet. I have built two boats and made modifications to the designers plan, adding a foot here, changing an angle there with no ill effects; certainly not the size and scope of your changes..You say you have built 20+ boats. It would be interesting if you would post some pictures of your past projects. I am sure there are some here that would like to see them.. Many here that can advise you on posting them if you have problems..

johnw
03-12-2009, 03:39 PM
There's a reference here:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fassitt/cranks/cranky_sampans.html

There doesn't seem to be a good way to search Classic Boat on line, and I'm not sure articles from 1999 are on line anyway. Anybody got a copy of May 1999 Classic Boat?

2MeterTroll
03-13-2009, 01:36 AM
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_CaRwR3sUXno/SbnCzugvGRI/AAAAAAAAAr0/MMX3fBmjxYs/100_1678.JPG33feet motor well and dagger board sorry the sail was not sewn in time for the first launch. but it is a junk rig. on a hollow box mast.http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2148/12211445/21717454/358087033.jpg

A few of the students paddling around. not all that we can haul but a few. the boat can haul about 2500 lbs
http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2148/12211445/21717454/358087027.jpg

the 28 ft flat bottom traditional umiak. getting set to go fishing in portorford
http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2148/12211445/21717454/358087028.jpg

my scurvy crew on maiden voyage in bandon
http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2148/12211445/21717454/358087036.jpg

A small number of boats in a workshop. Bidarkas
http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2148/12211445/21717454/358087045.jpg

the next boat image is huge so if folks want me to post it i will but for now you will just have to look at these.




I don't take many pic's of my boats. so these are gleaned from a number of friends. thanks all who took the photos.


Thanks for the help getting pic's up all.

johnw
03-13-2009, 01:41 PM
Not seeing the pix. Are they in a public album?

Canoeyawl
03-13-2009, 03:13 PM
Nice Shop ...
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_CaRwR3sUXno/SbnCkdlr36I/AAAAAAAAArU/VVZco4JCs84/IMG_0062.jpg

2MeterTroll
03-13-2009, 03:22 PM
thanks.
its a community space here that can be rented for workshops and other types of functions.
works out well, there are about 20 little studios that get rented for smaller projects.

paying a bit of dues allows use of a wood shop, metal shop, and welding shop.

All told a really nice deal.

P.L.Lenihan
03-14-2009, 12:09 AM
Wow!,How do you build boats in such little red Xs? Crack the door open a bit so I can peek in and see what's behind all those red Xs...please:)


Peter

2MeterTroll
03-14-2009, 12:21 AM
how interesting......... i will check it out

2MeterTroll
03-14-2009, 01:15 AM
got it

P.L.Lenihan
03-14-2009, 01:49 AM
Mucho gracias! Very sweet indeed!

Peter

soern
10-20-2009, 09:26 AM
Hallo,
this is my Sampan,I buy it 6 month ago, it is built in Port Klang, is 40 years old and has never been in the water, but next year...
its 6m long, make in mahagoni...
Is there any one how know about this type off boad?
Sorry for my brocken english...

Have anice day

Soern from Izehoe near Hamburg Germany

http://srv012.pixpack.net/20091020161929598_vrwvrftrzc.jpg

Thad
10-20-2009, 10:04 AM
Soern, check out these
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fassitt/cranks/Blake_Sampan2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fassitt/cranks/cranky_sampans.html&usg=__ShL2MEUI26x7pPe4aWME9YfZxtA=&h=908&w=1987&sz=96&hl=en&start=18&sig2=m3uAHBWl99G515Rgkxapug&um=1&tbnid=b9upJjm70gksTM:&tbnh=69&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsampans%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%2 6rls%3Den%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1&ei=-NDdSt2oL9ThlAemy9njAw

johnw
10-20-2009, 12:39 PM
Soern, that's a beauty. Does it have a sailing rig at all?

soern
10-21-2009, 06:38 AM
not it has not, but Im looking for ditails to build it to sail...
nice day
soern

johnw
10-21-2009, 12:51 PM
There is a sailplan for the boat Thad linked to. You can get it from the Smithsonian. It was a simple standing lug with spars at top and bottom, carrying about 150 square feet.

soern
10-21-2009, 02:00 PM
Hi John,
what sail is it, there are two differend types...
today I buy a motor (one cylindre 7hp) but it is not original.
dont know if it comes in...
I love this boat, and i am waiting for spring to start working to get it into the water!!!
nice day Soeren

soern
10-21-2009, 02:03 PM
Hi Thad, thaks for this link!!!
Itlooks like my boat but my is shorter.
Do you khow were it is bild?
My english is not so good to read it all without a translationprogram...
nice day soeren

Thad
10-21-2009, 02:21 PM
In that link I see pictures of quite a number of sampans a lot like yours and some just about the same size. Most in that size would use the yuloh for sculling or oars. If you went to Antwerp and studied that painting of a sampan you might see details of how the yuloh was secured to the aft extension. Here's a page on making a yuloh http://www.themultihull.com/misc/yuloh.htm You do seem to have pieces of wood sticking above the coaming that might be braces (forward to starboard and aft to port) for rowing as in the picture with the cross handled oars.

johnw
10-21-2009, 03:32 PM
Hi Thad, thaks for this link!!!
Itlooks like my boat but my is shorter.
Do you khow were it is bild?
My english is not so good to read it all without a translationprogram...
nice day soeren
The plans are from the William Maxwell Blake collection. He was in charge of the drydocks at Singapore about 100 years ago and documented many local types of boats. After he retired, he returned to England and became a yacht designer.

soern
10-22-2009, 03:59 PM
Hi,
how to say it in english...
my boad typ is very old?
there are many differend types off boats in asia.
to find out were it is build exactly is very difficult!
The captain, the first owner lives not anny more, but his wive!
mybe she can tell me more, but I know she was not very interisting in this boat. so it has never been in water.
nice Day.
i will tell you soon more
Soeren

62816inBerlin
10-23-2009, 06:46 AM
Hallo,
this is my Sampan,I buy it 6 month ago, it is built in Port Klang, is 40 years old and has never been in the water, but next year...
its 6m long, make in mahagoni...
Is there any one how know about this type off boad?
Sorry for my brocken english...

Have anice day

Soern from Izehoe near Hamburg Germany

Welcome to the forum!

Nicht so schlimm - man kann Sie verstehen!

Among the books I inherited from my old man, I believe that there is one on small coasting vessels and river small craft from China (the book is probably still in a cardboard box in the basement). Send me a PM if you're interested.
(Dann gehe ich im Keller nachschauen - I'll go in the basement for a look).

Viel Erfolg - Success :-{)
Gernot H

2MeterTroll
11-16-2009, 02:11 PM
that is one pretty little sampan you got Soern.
thank you for the pictures. I will have some more of Tari Tari sailing soon.

johnw
11-16-2009, 02:19 PM
Hey, Ernie, nice to see you back. Have you decided whether to add a centerboard to Tari Tari?

2MeterTroll
11-17-2009, 12:08 AM
We are trying the lee boards. so far they seem to be working pretty nice. I need to bring her up there or get David to come sailing with us. it feels better to me but i dont have enough experiance to know weather its me adapting to the boat or an actual improvment.

62816inBerlin
11-17-2009, 12:09 PM
BTW, did you ever consult G.R.G. Worcester's book(s) *?
I realized I had a copy on my bookshelves when responding to Soeren's post. Soeren's boat is definitely not in there, but probably the Blake collection should show a similar design, as his boat came from the SE Asia region. Unfortunately I do not have any relevant drawings or books.
However, browsing through Worcester's book, I realized that it contains a great many details of rigs and leeboard/rudder arrangements.
Leeboards are definitely the done thing if one wants to look original. There is definitely a logical reason why these have evolved as a preferred device for shallow-water working craft all around the world (Dutch traditional boats, Thames spritsail barges, Sampans ....).

Any new pictures? Or are you battening down for the winter?
Cheers!
Gernot H.

* originally published as several volumes, the US Naval Institute has published the contents of these in a single bound version. Apart from the boat descriptions, it contains a lot of narrative on the history, economy, customs and life-styles of China up to the end of WW II.

johnw
11-17-2009, 02:02 PM
To get a feel for your leeway, try sailing close-hauled close to some fixed object like a pier or a mooring. Try it with and without the leeboards. I'll bet they make a big difference. Of course, you'll need to find a spot without too much current.

soern
03-31-2010, 06:09 AM
Hi,
found a old picture of a boat like myn.

Nice Estern
Soern

johnw
03-31-2010, 12:43 PM
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=729&d=1270033522
There you go.

becks150
12-31-2010, 03:48 AM
Hi,

I am looking for designers and subsequently boat builders. It should have a capacity for 2-8 pax and the particular design of the wooden boat must be modeled after Sampans.

Please contact me at sampan.leisure@gmail.com

Thank you!

dskira
12-31-2010, 08:02 AM
Bob you are the second person who has warned me about just stretching the boat. :) Thank you.


I am the third one :D

bluedog225
04-11-2014, 12:31 PM
Bump.

TMT-Are still around?

Mrleft8
04-11-2014, 01:07 PM
Haven't seen hide nor hair of E&E since they left the Bauers a year and a half ago.

Yeadon
04-11-2014, 01:20 PM
They went deep into the Washington State outback, aka Twisp (I think).

JimD
04-11-2014, 01:33 PM
So is anyone going to build a sampan, or what? If no one else does the job will fall to me. Only mine would be a stretched pram sampan (and if you think that's easy to say try saying it quicky ten times) and that will leave no one happy. With the possible exception of me, of course.

johnw
04-11-2014, 02:19 PM
Oh, Ernie build the boat, and it's quite nice. He gave it a junk rig.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AEmZxIRLp_c/Ti2007s1adI/AAAAAAAACjQ/eS2WPgro-dA/s320/IMAG0048.jpg

http://threesheetsnw.com/files/2010/07/ErnieEricaWisner2.jpg

johnw
04-11-2014, 02:23 PM
Bump.

TMT-Are still around?

Here's their website: http://www.ernieanderica.info/

JimD
04-11-2014, 02:23 PM
Oh, Ernie build the boat, and it's quite nice. He gave it a junk rig.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AEmZxIRLp_c/Ti2007s1adI/AAAAAAAACjQ/eS2WPgro-dA/s320/IMAG0048.jpg

http://threesheetsnw.com/files/2010/07/ErnieEricaWisner2.jpg

Nice, John. That looks like quite a rig for such a sliver of a boat. I'm inspired.

johnw
04-11-2014, 02:25 PM
He did put a daggerboard in it, and it's surprisingly stable. Plus, the rig is easy to reef.

Yeadon
04-11-2014, 02:37 PM
In the photo above, that's me in the middle. I sailed it for a while that day. I was able to stand up on the aft quarter of the boat and helm Tari from there. Fun boat. Ernie did a great on the hull. Erica did a great job sewing/creating the sail.

I wasn't a fan of the tiller arrangement, though it was traditional. Overall, Tari is a blast.

James McMullen
04-11-2014, 02:58 PM
That tiller really was something. Kind of like using a whipstaff more than anything. I found it phenomenally un-ergonomic for me, but the ol' Two Meter Troll has just about the biggest wingspan of anyone I've ever met, so I guess he was able to reach it more easily or something. And that sampan shape seemed to be oriented towards having someone's weight all the way back there at any rate.

ahp
04-11-2014, 03:19 PM
Two years ago I was on a sampan, along with a bunch of other tourists, in a tributary off the Yangtze River. This sampan was strictly oar powered, by about four Chinese, standing and facing forward. It was a very graceful craft. It was flat bottom, and the bottom swept up at each end and became narrower. The sides were flared and had a little curvature.

Yes, the planks were edge to edge, and held tightly so with large wrought iron staples which bridged the seams. There were also sawn frames.

Was this a real sampan? It was entirely open and there was no provision for a sail. A sail would have been useless anyway. The stream we were on was in a deep gorge with almost vertical walls.

johnw
04-11-2014, 03:33 PM
Two years ago I was on a sampan, along with a bunch of other tourists, in a tributary off the Yangtze River. This sampan was strictly oar powered, by about four Chinese, standing and facing forward. It was a very graceful craft. It was flat bottom, and the bottom swept up at each end and became narrower. The sides were flared and had a little curvature.

Yes, the planks were edge to edge, and held tightly so with large wrought iron staples which bridged the seams. There were also sawn frames.

Was this a real sampan? It was entirely open and there was no provision for a sail. A sail would have been useless anyway. The stream we were on was in a deep gorge with almost vertical walls.

Sampan roughly translates to "three planks," I understand. Narrow, flat-bottomed boats were the original type. The term is now widely applied to various small Chinese boats, many of them round bilged. Since it refers to the hull design, the question of rig does not arise.

bluedog225
04-11-2014, 05:40 PM
Here's their website: http://www.ernieanderica.info/

Thanks.

Nice boat. I was hoping he would go for the 30 footer though.