rewiring a 1936 42' trawler

[63rustbucket]

Hello I am rewiring my boat and I am just to the point that I need to consider running some wires and I would like to know if there is a reason or a benifit to having my 12 volt fuse panel so close to my 110 breakers? They are both currently on an exterior bulkhead in the wheel house, the 12 volt fuses are in a good location, they are just in an area that can get wet, So either a new location or a watertight box would work just hoping to hear what other people have done.

I was also wondering about the 110 breakers, I would like to move them closer to the rear, in the galley preferably where most of the power consumption will be. So is there an advantage to having the breakers so close to the fuse box. The only thing forward as far as power consumption will be the battery chargers and a few recepticles forward.

Here are some pictures to clear things up a bit.

http://data5.blog.de/media/849/3282849_aa73947d7b_m.jpg

the breakers and fuses are by the propane tank and the pot.lol

http://data5.blog.de/media/850/3282850_e2f8b4af55_m.jpg

http://data5.blog.de/media/077/3283077_615b9899cd_m.jpg

The wiring is a mess and it will all be replaced but just need a place to start and would like to know what others have done.

More pictures here
http://www.blog.ca/media/photo/heron_ii_wheel_house/3282850

Thanks in advance.
Bob

[pcford]

Nice boat...I am not an expert in wiring boats as complicated as yours. I will agree that your wiring is a mess. There are books on marine wiring...with luck someone will be along who can help with your specific question.

I might add that these days you may be able to hire an electrician for a couple days of coaching and planning.

[Yeadon]

http://data5.blog.de/media/233/3215233_dbd5782fc7_l.jpg

This is a cool boat ... wiring or no wiring.

(Sorry, not a wiring expert at all, and I'd be a fool to make any comment along those lines. But I do know what a cool boat looks like.)

[prestonbriggs]

I'd put the breakers inside where they're protected and I'd put them where they're handy to get at. There's no particular reason to have the 110v stuff near the 12v stuff. Indeed, I can think of arguments either way.

There's an advantage to minimizing wire lengths and some boats will have multiple breaker boxes (say port and starboard, or forward and aft). I'd think about it for a while before committing to any particular layout. In the meantime, read some of Calder's books for ideas.

Preston

[georgel]

A few general things. Keep electronics wireing IE antenna leads etc. well separated from the AC wiring. Make sure that all breakers fuses are protected from water including condensation. If your fuse panels are outside, by all means use a water tight enclosure. Make all wire runs neat. Label everything at both ends and where ever you pass through bulkheads. [ both sides] Navy style use plastic or aluminum label tape. wrap them around the leads and then cover them in tape. Make a schematic wiring diagram and keep it with your engine manuals. Having a hookup sheet inside your electrical panels is good practice and saves a lot of head scratching down the road. Give a generous radius to all bends. No sharp 90*. Use marine wiring. tin plated is best if you can afford it. Also shielded wiring for the AC stuff is a good Idea as it cuts down on stray currents.
corrosion is a ubiquitous problem with marine wiring so going to a lot of trouble to keep it to a minimum is worth the effort. Keep wiring out of the bilge with the exception of bilge pumps and transducer leads. Junction BP in water proof boxes as hi up as is practical.
I have recently been doing some research into LED lighting. when I get to the point of wiring my project, [32 ft. Stephens Bro. cruiser] I will be installing them for Nav lights and house lighting.

[Lew Barrett]

Read This (http://books.google.com/books?id=-L4F7KDu5vkC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=abyc+electrical+code+for+yachts&source=bl&ots=GrCURQE3lT&sig=cwaJCJx01yd1BbODoWkXKUIcJvU&hl=en&ei=mrmtSZjWD4nOtQPU9ujGBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result#PPA23,M1)

Buy a decent reference manual for this job.

This is a good one by Nigel Calder (http://www.amazon.com/Boatowners-Mechanical-Electrical-Manual-Essential/dp/007009618X)

It's more than worth the time to do a bit of research, and to develop your plan according to the basic rules of good shipboard electrical design. It's a major task.

There is no guarantee, in fact, it's more than likely, that your existing "system" is a hodge-podge of connections and stuff brought together over time. An integrated approach is one of the most significant things you can do for your boat in respect to avoiding major problems later.

[Lew Barrett]

I have to add that it is much easier to say "keep everything neat and tightly bundled" than it is to do it. Wiring on boats is frustratingly difficult to organize and takes a plan up front. All of George's advice is excellent, but it only scratches the surface of this important bit of design. A professional's help might be worth organizing in respect to defining the plan. Then you can go forward with confidence doing the grunt work.

Believe it or not, I don't find what I see on your boat all that disturbing. I've seen much worse, although to me it looks like some of the parts may have been obtained at Home Depot and not a marine supplier. The buss bar is marine stuff, though. In respect to the wire, it's hard to tell from a photo.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

On a boat where you have the space, conduit is permitted to run wires of certain types and amperage. With a return fish in them they allow easy additions, and keep things tidy. Like Lew says, I've seen worse, but a couple of comments. First, wire should have drip bends in them, and the fuse panel should always have a cover. Fuses are fine, but circuit breakers are the way to go for A/C.

[63rustbucket]

Hi and thanks have been looking for that book have heard many good things about it. I am 100 miles from a half decent town with a population over 1500. So its on my shopping list. I am very early in the work just getting the diesel turning now, and that is why I made the post.

The location of my fuse panel in my opinion in the current location is going to be problem, even when I get her all sealed up there will always be a possability of a drip as well as moisture. So if I need to build another bulkhead or cabinet in the wheelhouse it would be better if I make plans on it now.

Just wondering where other people have theres and if anyone has ever had problem with a certain location. Even as I am writing this a cabinet is a good possible solution, its not like I dont have the room.

The current wiring is just scary, there is lead coated solid core wires throughout the boat, not conected to anthing that I can see. Wiring resting on top of the engine exhaust. Its all coming out.

Another problem I am having is finding a good referance online for basic boat electrical, probably will all be in the Calder book. Some of the stuff I read online is like french, it just doesnt make sense yet. I guess it will in time. Would like to start with a basic schematic of my own wants and the boats needs. So much to learn good thing I am still young.

I also like the idea of using LEDs and other power saving ideas that anyone may have used with success.

Great ideas
Thanks Bob

[Lew Barrett]

Your situation is pretty typical of what happens over time. Things are added and subtracted until the entire affair seems hopelessly muddled. You'll sort it out. This is one of those jobs that once it's done, never needs redoing in your lifetime.

You can get the book from Amazon, which is where my link takes you. Just order it and keep it aboard when you're done reading it.

[Hwyl]

I'm mostly a blow boat guy. But there are some questions, is your AC just on shorepower or do you have a generator. If you have a generator is it running most of the time.

There are times when it's useful to have the DC and AC panels close, for instance if you have an inverter, you'll probably want to switch it off when AC becomes available (genny or shore power), also there are sometimes DC loads that you run often when there is a battery charger working, but rarely under battery alone.

I also don't think your current wiring looks awful

[Recycled]

I'll put in another vote for Calder's book. I just rewired a significant chunk of my boat and it was worth its weight in gold.

One comment I'd add, is to double check the length of your runs and the gauge of the wire. On larger boats with longer runs, the size required by the current tables increases rapidly and expensively. You need to use the round-trip length when calculating gauge. I ended up junking a lot of separate runs and put in heavy boat cable (2 or 4 gauge, if I remember correctly) from the house batteries forward to a subpanel in the forward cabin. I used mostly Blue Sea components and have had no problems with them.

I'm currently trying to make a decision about replacing all the house lights with LEDs. That in itself, should reduce your wiring costs if you have long runs. I'll start a separate thread on that.

BTW, I've loved Tofino since I first visited about 25 years ago. You're very lucky to be there!

[63rustbucket]

Hi Gareth, I do not have a generator, and there is a small inverter on the wheel house, looks more like a windshield washer motor so its going, the only thing that I can think of that had a highpower drain would have been the constavolt battery charger, which was damaged when she was partially submerged, its gone now.

One thing that may have been a factor, but I doubt it, is that the boat had origanally a 32 volt system, there is a handle that goes to a device to adjust the 32, volts but that does not look like it has been connected to anthing for awhile. Most of the ac goes aft except for the lights and plugs in the v birth.

When I first got onboard and replaced the batteries I noticed that the negative on the batteries went to the positive on the fusses, the negative on the buss bar was melted, I am surprised the previous owner never noticed it. That is why there are some hotwires connected to the negative terminal.

If I can get the ac figured out that would be a good start in cleaning up the mess.

[Lew Barrett]

I also don't think your current wiring looks awful
:D;)

But his non-current wiring is dreadful!

[C. Ross]

One more vote for Calder.

A couple of other comments.

First, put your AC panel in a place that's dry and secure, and don't worry too much about the length of the AC. The higher voltage allows current to travel further without loss of current or build up of heat. DC runs need to be short. You need big fat expensive cable for low voltage/high amperage DC compared to the same wattage of AC. So short runs means smaller cable size, less current loss, less heat gain.

Second, ABYC standards and good practice say that AC and DC systems should be separated at the panels and in cable runs, but they are often located together on old boats. It's OK if you keep them clean and separated. My panels are side by side, and I've separated and the cable bundles pretty well, and I can't guarantee that there isn't an AC cable strapped to a DC cable somewhere.

Third, the 32 volt system ... I assume you know what needs 32 (if anything) and what needs 12 and so on. On a big tricked-out boat you might see mixed voltage - like a 24 or 32 DC volt windlass or bow thruster that can draw a lot of current, in which case higher voltage works better.

Fourth, read Calder.

[63rustbucket]

Thanks for all the input, I have been on the boat a month and this is the first time I have thought about the wiring. I know I will be moving my 110 and will probably build a cabinet away from the bulkhead for the DC.

Seen the posting on the led light and will be following that as well.

I will definately get the Calder book. I appreciate any and all feedback as I do only want to do this once.
Thanks
Bob

[Hwyl]

What AC stuff do you have?
Do you only propose using the galley at the dock?
Are you going to hard wire your new inverter into the AC circuit?

[Hwyl]

:D;)

But his non-current wiring is dreadful!


You have potential

[63rustbucket]

Hi Gareth, I feel that I will very shore power dependant for a few years anyways. I have a fridge, microwave, toaster oven, tv stereo, electric heater. One goal is to instal solar water /electric heating it has already been plumbed(but not sure if solar is viable, not popular up here) but heating is a big concern.

Not sure about the inverter,but thanks for planting the seed.

I dont think I will ever be able to cross the microwave, toaster oven hurdle, not a big problem.

I have on demand hot water, but again I would like to have a hot water tank and would like to be able to heat the tank and use the microwave. Heat is my number one concern, although I think the boat likes the cold.

My cruising plans are for short trips within a day and stay long. No plans to be on the hook, except maybe in summer and dont mind roughing it with.

So I will be shore power dependant, with most of the power drain in the galley.
Thanks again
Bob

[Lew Barrett]

Are you planning to live aboard?

[Lew Barrett]

You have potential

An ohmage and from a pro, no less!

[63rustbucket]

Hi and thanks again, I am not only planning I am living aboard, this is my third, attempt to liveaboard. So I have a little salt in some wounds. So with little work this year I have a lot of time on my hands. Being an older boat I realise that if I am considering insurance which is almost a must for many marinas, things will have to meet or exceed code.

Again thanks for the feed back it is going to take awhile to absorb all the theory, and it helps me think things through when I have a chance to discuss things.

So many questions.
Bob

[pcford]

I only have worked on speedboats, but I regard wiring as a rather pleasant work. Clean and not hard duty. It is amazingly time consuming to do properly though. The worst thing is the acrobatics that one has to go through sometimes. Not nice for my body as I slip into my dotage.

As Lew said, old boats are usually a rat's nest of wiring horrors.

[Mad Scientist]

Another vote for Calder! I have his book, and I think it's great!

The Amazon link was for the second edition. The WoodenBoat Store has the Third Edition for sale (item #300-268), as well as Boatowner's Illustrated Electrical Handbook, by Charlie Wing (item #300-688).

Tom

[Hwyl]

Nowadays you can easily run a microwave from the inverter, the TV should be no problem either (make sure it's a sine wave inverter). So that would be a reason to think about having the panels close. I'd consider 2 AC panels, with one solely for the galley, and one with a major breaker for the galley one somewhere near the door for safety purposes.


The only thing that really makes you shore power dependant is the fridge, you can fill that with cold packs if you want to go out for a couple of days.

You mentioned the 32V and I'm guessing that is all gone by now. It would be consistent with the age of your boat, at this point though the market locks us into buying the cheap 12V stuff.

[Mike DeHart]

I'll also chime in for marine grade wires. Solid conductor home wires cannot hold up to the vibrations seen on a boat. The conductor will flex, work harden, fatigue, and eventually crack. It won't crack through, it will crack very slowly in a lot of places. This reduces its cross section and its ability to carry current. This, in turn, creates hot spots in the wires. You discover these hot spots when something bursts into flame. Marine wire is stranded, but it is still vastly different from industrial stranded wire. The marine wire uses many more strands of a thinner gauge for the same size wire. Industrial usually has only 7 strands and will fatigue like the solid but a little slower. The thinner strands make for more flexibiliy. Marine wire is also tinned. This allows it to have much better resistance to corrosion. Untinned flexible wire will corrode right inside the insulation. You only have to cut open one wire and find a tube filled with green powder to undestand the advantage of tinned marine grade wire. Damn the cost, use the right wire.

[Hwyl]

I think, it's a given that Bob is committed to doing it the right way, which includes the right wire and hardware, it's the "how" he's asking about. At least that's what I'm reading.

[Hwyl]

Argghh, rips his hair out, that's not what I meant. I thought yours was a grat post. I am not the policeman here. Please please repost it.

[BETTY-B]

Your location is exactly the same place as mine. Moisture seems to make it's way in there. And I too had that lead covered wire everywhere. With blade switches rather than fuses or breakers. I pulled litterally trash cans full of useless wire. Everything. What a job.

I am going to have to disagree with the condition of that wiring. That looks like solid core romex style. With the movement of boats, that stuff will break. Those home style AC breakers and boxes are a disaster in a marine environment. Specially with the wire running down into it. I had one just like that. One day a friend was feeding the geese bread off the side of the boat. She was giggling because they would get only so close to the boat before squawking wildly and flying away. Only to have the geese behind them come in and repeat the whole process. I was thinking geeze, hot marina I guess. I then kneeled down on the dock to rinse my hands off. I got a decent shock. I looked at the board and it looked fine. Sickly, I used the bread to see if the birds continued to freak out when I turned it off. Nope. Upon closer inspection, the back of the breakers were melted. They turned on and off maually, but didnt break.

That was the first week I owned my boat. That box was gone that day. I rewired the entire electrical a little while later. And I am now regretting not putting the different systems in different places.

Some of this may have been suggested above, but it is personal experience so I think worth saying again:

If you are going to go the distance rewiring, use tinned copper strand wire.

Only use marine breakers. And fuses are such a pain when you could have just as easily installed marine DC breakers too.

Draw the diagram as detailed as possible before and the actual as you go. As well as label everything.

All those wires being loose like that is bad too. Use saddle blocks (http://www.fisheriessupply.com/online/ln_menu/product.asp/mode/1/product_id/9556/Ntt/ancor+tie/N/13432/Nty/1le/R/26553/act/A01/catalog_name/FISCO/Ntx/mode+matchpartial+rel+Inactive)that can be screwed in everywhere that have little belt buckle holes to slip in wire/cable ties. I wish I would have known about these a long time ago.

Dont assume anything is wired correctly there. For instance, it seems like a lot of stuff wired in to that DC fuse panel, with some pretty spindly wires feeding it. Where's the main BATT switch? It may be fine, but do extensive reading to find the proper way. I like the idea of paying for some consulting. That would be well worth it.

Dont buy used or cheap inverter/chargers. They are all garbage. However, there is remanufactured Heart or Xantrex ones out there that when I saw them a few years ago I called the manufacturer here in Washington who said that yes those are indeed as good a buy as they seem. I think it was around 4-500 bucks far a remanufactured one that would have been $2500 new on the shelf(the prices of those seem to have dropped considerably). Some people prefer to have completely seperate charger/inverter systems. Not me, but look into it.

New wiring seems like a pretty strait forward thing. And with alittle research, it is. But it takes so much longer than you would think. Or it did me. It's a huge task. Good luck with that.

Sweet boat by the way. I look forward to seeing the progress.

DAN

[63rustbucket]

Thanks for all the feed back it is a good way for me to learn. I live by murphys law and if something can go wrong it will with me. I can not afford to take chances.

Will be using marine grade tinned wire on all systems, which is cheap compared to my time. Even if it is on average 2 bucks a foot that is cheap.

I will be crimping and heat shrinking all connections.

I like the idea of two breakers on the 110 vac. One near the galley, one close to where it is. Gives me flexibility.

Really like the idea of breakers on the 12 volt. They again are reletively cheap. What I have noticed with these fuses is that they do seem to corode where the fuses sit, which in my book is another chance at failure. See how the budget is, which is where the led lighting is a budget thing.

But that does lead me to another question, since I am not a big fan of hanging wires. Has anyone ever used a cable tray. wood or aluminum, I would prefer to lay the wires than hang them.

Thanks again it will still be awhile till I get to town so the more I have on the list the better. probably about a 6 hour round trip to somewhere that will have some half decent supplies. So if I may have forgotten anything you would be doing me a big favor.

The Calder book.
Thanks again, very helpful.
Bob
I realise now that I used to think I know a little about everything but the reality is I know a lot about nothing.

[BETTY-B]

Where are you located? From the looks of that pic, I would guess the West Side of Vancouver Island. Fisheries Supply might be your best bet. Have everything shipped. I know they ship way more than they sell out of their huge store in Seattle. You could even set up an account I'd bet and get 10-60% off the prices listed. Ooh, maybe not with Canada customs? Anyone know about that? Does B.C. have a FISCO (http://www.fisheriessupply.com/online/) type store? I know when I'm in Vancouver, I go to Martin Marine, but he's hardly a full tilt marine store.

DAN

[C. Ross]

But that does lead me to another question, since I am not a big fan of hanging wires. Has anyone ever used a cable tray. wood or aluminum, I would prefer to lay the wires than hang them.

My boat came with some, and I like them a lot. I have one run on each side of the engine compartment, screwed into the underflooring of the salon. And another vertical one that handles an awkward spot in the aft cabin.

But per my note up above about separating AC and DC -- this is the one place where it is REALLY tempting to stick the AC runs in with the DC, and I've resisted. It's the place where someday you might snip a DC wire (which is not a big deal) and instead smash into a live AC line, which can be a big deal indeed...

Good luck. Replacing house wiring and components with marine really is necessary.

[BETTY-B]

I am not a big fan of hanging wires. Has anyone ever used a cable tray. wood or aluminum, I would prefer to lay the wires than hang them.


Mine have plenty of sills and such where long runs lay on them. But I still keep them tied and secured quit often.

[63rustbucket]

You guessed it right Betty I am in tofino, about as far west as I can get. There is a marine supply here and I am fairly sure they will order anything I want, but at a price. They are good for some things but if I need a lot of anything I will drive to nanaimo. There is still alot I can do that does not require anything yet, currently rebuilding the diesel, and I will keep going until I need parts for that. Not sure about ordering online especially heavey items like wire, because they charge by weight.

So I think I will put in some sill as well have lots of room and it does make things look neater and is probably better for the wire.

Good idea about talking to the fishermen they know where to go, got my starter rebuilt for $150 got my blower rebuilt for $100. Never thought about asking about electrical.

Was talking about caulking and the guy I was talking to, an old time fisherman suggested cement, but that will be another thread.

There is a place called ashousat here where I can bring my boat to haul out, the guy is supposedly cheap and good, 2 of my favorite qualities. The problem there is no roads in so I will need to bring some of my own supplies.

So glad I got thinking of the electrical, yesterday my head was spinning with paralel, series, circuits... Had to have a nap I was so exhasused. Had no idea were to start. Now today have a drawing and faith that if I do things right and ask for help it will all work out.

Just cant thank everyone enough for all the help and feed back.
Still just the beginning but it was a good step.
Bob

[BETTY-B]

Tofino's a lot of fun in the summer(never been there in winter). What a great place to be out of. So many cool places within a beautiful, short putt away.

ahh...summer......

DAN

[63rustbucket]

Thanks Dan, glad I caught your name. I love it here to so many places to go, cheap moorage, Have you ever been to bamfield? Been there on land and fell in love with the place. I would like to summer there if there is amenities.

Thanks again
Bob

[BETTY-B]

Yes. Bamfield is way cool. Never been there by car. The Islands out front in the middle of the Sound are fantastic as well. I love it out there.