Wooden or Aluminum Mast?

[Randall Dedrickson]

I am building a Hartley TS-16 and was considering building a wooden mast for it. Although the plans that I built the boat from show an aluminum mast I was also able to purchase a plan sheet that shows construction of the wooden mast for the boat. I would using the boat for sailing on lakes and rivers here in the northwest and an occasional trip up to the Puget Sound area. Not sure of the advantages of one over the other as I am new to sailing. I think the cost of the wooden mast would be considerably less than buying an aluminum mast. I was also considering using a lock miter joint on the wooden mast as I have access to a nice lock miter bit and router table. Any comments welcome.

[py]

In terms of weight aloft, and maintenance, aluminium probably has the advantage. Weight aloft is particulalry important. In terms of resale value, aluminium probably has the advantage. Given the price of decent wood these days, unless you are cutting it yourself out of the woods somewhere, I'd be surprised if wood is much cheaper than ally. Great boat by the way.

[David G]

Mr. D,

Welcome from a fellow Portlander. I'll let others speak to the pros/cons of wood vs. aluminum sticks, because - as a professional woodworker and boatbuilder - I'm hopelessly biased.

I do have a question for you though. If you built a wood mast, would it be a hollow rectangle, or a birdsmouth circular/oval? I've built several birdsmouth spars - using just a tablesaw to cut the notches - but I've never seen a lock-miter bit used for birdsmouth construction. Off the top, I don't see how it'd be feasible, but I haven't stared at it, either. If a rectangle, the added gluing surface of a lock-miter would make it stronger, definitely. OTOH, 20, or 40 years down the road, the owner will curse you, because it won't be possible to easily break it down, do repairs, and reconstruct... it'll be new stick time. That, however, is a tradeoff you might be willing to make.

What do the plans call for?

Where are you planning on building? At home, or at RiversWest, or...?

And what inspired you to pick the Hartley TS16? I know it's hugely popular, and highly thought of in OZ. I've always liked the slightly frumpy/british influenced looks. What other designs did you consider?


"Criticism is prejudice made plausible" -- H.L. Mencken

[JimConlin]

The raw aluminum extrusion will cost less than $200, so unless it's to be shipped to Timbuktu, aluminum is the easy choice.

[S.V. Airlie]

I guess if youhave a wooden boat, a wooden mast is the way to go to be as traditional as possible. Certainly an aluminum mast has the points mentioned above.
However, I saw a beautiful concordia last year. Mint.. and I mean mint...The aluminum mast detracted from it though.. At least from my perspective.

[Thorne]

What is the length of the mast, and how is your physical conditioning? You'll be raising and lowering it a lot, so if you've got a bad back or elbow, you may want to go for aluminum.

Some of the consideration should be on esthetics -- I like a wood mast on a wood boat as per the post above. Will your Hartley be really basic, or will you go for some fun wood trim and varnished bits? If the latter, I'd be tempted to try a wood mast -- is there an option for a tabernacle in the plans?

Bob Smalser has restored and operated a similar boat, so let's see what he says.

[Randall Dedrickson]

The mast would be a hollow rectangle with no taper from top to bottom. Length is 21'6". I chose the Hartley design after reseaching others because of the look and the extra beam of the boat at 7'4". I have been working on this project for 5+ years when time and finances allow.The plans do not show a tabernacle.Thanks for the replys

[JimConlin]

If weight is a strong consideration, there's always carbon.
Whatever the material, aesthetics can be served, An aluminum or carbon mast can be painted and an LPU finish will take less maintenance than varnish on a wood spar. If the sky's the limit, you could emulate Jon Wilson, WB's owner, whose Concordia 33 sports a faux grain painted carbon spar.

[hm0316]

I would like to put in a word for wooden masts.

Wooden masts are often tapered whereas a simple aluminum extrusion is not. For this reason, a tapered wooden spar will be more attractive than an aluminum extrusion, even if they are painted the same color. Tapered aluminum masts are available, but they are more expensive. Also, they are not likely to be available in the precise size you want so you would have to accept whatever approximation is available.

Aluminum is lighter, but less so than might be presumed assuming the wood is tapered and the aluminum is not. Also, much of the weight of the rig is in the standing and running rigging and there would be no difference there. Lastly, most classes (such as the L16) which permit either wood or aluminum require the aluminum be weighted at the top so that the center is the same.

Aluminum is lower maintanance but that could be said of fiberglass versus wood. No one owns a wooden boat because it is easy to maintain.

Carbon fiber is a whole other story. A custom carbon mast will be at least as expensive as a professionally built wooden spar. Also, a very light mast will change the sailing characteristics of a traditional boat and can make it less comfortable (more "jerky") in a seaway. I have seen attractive carbon spars on "spirit of tradition" vessels built to a modern design, but I would be very hesitant to put them on a traditional boat without the advice of an experienced naval architect.

Good luck, hm316

[hm0316]

I note in reviewing the posts that your mast is not tapered. That portion of the earlier reply would not be applicable. hm0316

[Ian McColgin]

Lock mitre seems unnecessarily fussy when the standard four sided works so well and the bird's mouth works better. The design you have is untapered only for eas of thinking about it and to keep the aluminum and wooden masts looking about alike. The designer (or any good NA or sparmaker) can help you with the correct scantlings for a nice tapered mast if you want that.

So, wood might be aesthetically more pleasing and there is much to being able to say, "This I made with my own hands." But you can get a suitable bit of aluminum dirt cheap. Look around local yards for some cast off, even if you have to cut off a few feet and change the spreaders. There's so much to do making a boat that there's no harm in a short cut.

Do the plans include an easy approach to stepping the mast, perhaps with the help of a hinged jack pole on the trailor? When you get the boat about built and are really getting to rigging, PM me or something for how to adapt the LazyLifts for making setting and striking the rig really easy.

G'luck

[OldGW]

Randall,
I am building a Hartley as well. After seeing the plans for the 16, I opted for the 18, gaffed rigged with a tapered, hollow, wooden mast complete with tabernacle. My plans for the 16 showed a mast step.
Regards,

Gordon

[RFNK]

And what inspired you to pick the Hartley TS16? I know it's hugely popular, and highly thought of in OZ. I've always liked the slightly frumpy/british influenced looks.


It's actually a New Zealand design and looks like it (with respect). I love these boats and they sail beautifully - we had one when I was a teenager in the early 70s. However, you need to use the regulation centreboard which is quite light to realize their real potential. Some owners use heavier centreboards because, under the right conditions, these boats can turn over, and they'll go right over. There's a story about a `southerly buster' hitting the TS 16 fleet on Lake Macquarie (New South Wales, just north of Sydney) years ago and knocking half the fleet over. Putting a heavier mast on could make a TS 16 just a little more prone to this unwanted potential. A turtled TS 16 will not be turned over again. You have to tow it to the shore and bail it right out. I'd go with the lightest available rig for performance and safety. Rick

[David G]

Mr. D,

Given what RFNK says about the proclivity to invert, I'd say it's one more reason to use a wooden mast. The wood will want to float, rather than sink and hang pointing toward the bottom. You can fuss around, and seal an aluminum stick so that it's more prone to float, but it'll never float (and resist the boats urge to turtle) like a wooden stick.

[Geary]

Randall, Did you decide on an aluminum or wood mast for your TS16? I'm currently looking for somewhere to get a quote on an aluminum mast for my Hartley TS14 in the Portland area. (Although I'm leaning toward a Doug-Fir wood mast at the moment.) The wood mast design is sounds very similar, only mine is 18' long and probably not as big of a section.

[bucheron]

I am building a Hartley . . . . . . 18, gaffed rigged with a tapered, hollow, wooden mast complete with tabernacle. Gordon

Could you publish your gaff sail and rigging plan on this site? I am sure Hartley owners world-wide would be interested.

[Larks]

I have a Hartley TS16 with aluminium spars and personally I'd stick with them. The boat is a trailer sailor so the spars are handled a lot and wooden ones, I'd imagine, would get a bit knocked around unless you are quite cautious with them. Also being a trailer sailor you want your spars as light and as easily handled as possible and the aluminium ones certainly are. If you are raising the mast by yourself you will be trying to keep the mast straight in line with the mast step bolt/pin less you bend it before it's seated and at the sametime ensuring that your stays, which are already attached, don't tangle on something on the way up, so you don't want to be struggling with something that you can't manage with one hand.

In my case I am able to raise my mast quite easily alone while still on the trailer by lifting it most of the way by hand then pulling on an extended line to the forestay wrapped around the ladder rack of my ute still attached in front of the boat. One hand steady's the mast while I pull on the extended forestay with the other until it is seated in the mast step.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/Larks_01/boat-1stlaunch.jpg

You may get the impression from Ricks post that the Hartleys are "tippy" but they are really anything but tippy, they are a very stable wee yacht, however as he says if you were to go over as in the situation that he described, you'd not be able to right her. I don't know how much weight aloft a wooden mast would add but I'd not be doing anything that might turn an otherwise very stable boat into a tippy boat.

[Randall Dedrickson]

I have decided to go with aluminum due to the durabilaty of aluminum and low maintanence.

[donald branscom]

Just because the plans do not show a mast tabernacle does not mean you cannot have one.

The aluminum mast people have tabernacle hindges and all you need other that that is a post inside the boat.

[donald branscom]

Randall, Did you decide on an aluminum or wood mast for your TS16? I'm currently looking for somewhere to get a quote on an aluminum mast for my Hartley TS14 in the Portland area. (Although I'm leaning toward a Doug-Fir wood mast at the moment.) The wood mast design is sounds very similar, only mine is 18' long and probably not as big of a section.

Wood will cost the least EVEN with the finishing.
The aluminum with fittings will be over $400.00
The wood for your mast would only be about $55.00
The boat will look better with a wood mast and increase it's value.

I built my own mast for my 19 foot sailboat and it was not difficult at all.

[Geary]

I'm going to make a Doug-Fir wood mast. Cheaper, more fun to make, and better looking than an aluminum mast IMO. The wood mast should weigh about 30 lbs (for the TS14). I can raise that single handed no problem. I imagine one strong person (not me) could probably raise the TS16 wood mast. Also, doesn't the aluminum mast make some clanking sounds while underway? That would ruin the wooden boat feel for me.

I'm going with DF instead of Sitka Spruce because the DF that is available is much higher quality than any Sitka that I could find. The strength-to-weight ratio of DF is almost as good as Sitka. Though I think DF vs. Sitka for spars is discussed in other threads already.

My impression (from what I've read elsewhere online) is that the Hartley TS boats are stable. They are very wide, which probably helps.

[Randall Dedrickson]

I did and might still consider a wooden mast. I had to purchase the plan seperatly from the boat plans but it is something to ponder.

[Larks]

Also, doesn't the aluminum mast make some clanking sounds while underway? That would ruin the wooden boat feel for me.



Unlikely when you're underway - sailing anyway. In a marina or anchorage the clanking of masts is caused either by halyards or cables inside the mast that run clean up the inside, ie they haven't been run in a fixed conduit of some sort, so that if the boat rocks they slap against the inside of the mast, or more commonly by halyards or lines clipped on so that thay sit against the mast rather than clipped outboard somewhere, so that a bit of a breeze causes them to slap against the mast.