Hull Weight - Lap Ply vs. Strip + Veneer

[Barrett Faneuf]

I am posting here as I'm pretty sure it gets the most traffic.

As a sidenote, I have been lurking regularly, though I haven't posted in a while. Figures that in the site reorg some time ago I get a new member number, bleah ;) .

So anyway, I'd like some input on hull weights and virtues based on construction method. I know I'm opening a big can of worms, of course. A while ago I bought the plans for Oughtred's Eun Mara, and planned to build in lap ply with epoxy as per designer's spec. Since then, some changes have occurred to my building capacity and boat needs.

I originally looked at the Eun Mara as a great boat fitting the parameters of : must be buildable in smallish one-car garage (what I had at the time), have good weekending capability, and be able to live on a trailer - I'll not be affording a mooring or slip anytime soon. Oh, and a seriously salty design with gaff rig of some sort is required. I'm not a big one for modern looking boats, despite their possible virtues. Exception: Ceol Mor, of course.

Since then I bought a house with a much larger garage, and, more impacting though it took me a while to realize it, a large RV parking side yard (read: huge building space). I live in Olympia, WA, where it is very conceivable to build year-round. Very rarely do we get temperatures below freezing, and then not for long.

After much thought and consultation, I think that the Allegra (attempting to insert link http://www.boatdesigns.com/cgi-bin/store/web_store.cgi?page=allegra24.html&&cart_id=302734_13001 ) would be a just fantastic boat to build. I still want something trailerable, because the mooring/slip thing still applies, and I'm attracted to a very capable weekender/vacationer that I can drive to a desired locale (British Columbia in summer, anyone? :D ), plop her in myself, then haul out and head home, no pro mover fees etc. I have ordered the study plans for now.

Now we come to the meat of the topic. Allegra plans are provided for either one-off F*******ss or strip-planked with cold-molding over the planking. I am extremely familiar with the second method, having watched Daddy build Ceol Mor that way throughout the summers of my life.

I REALLY like the look/feel of lapstrake ply. I like the planking, the way it follows the lines of the boat, the way it provides a convenient sheer strake for prettying up, the conceived speed of the method compared to strip/cold-molded, the relative tolerance of finishes (slight imperfections less glaringly obvious on a non-smooth hull), everything. I know designs can be converted, and if I were to decide to convert I would employ a NA for assuring the scantlings are appropriate.

What are the respected Forumits' thoughts on:

a) Relative weight of lap ply vs strip+ Cold-molded, assuming lap ply not sheathed exept possibly Dynel strategically below the waterline for trailering durability, and

b) Relative sailing performance. This is the can-of-worms. This may well be a religious issue, with all kinds of theories and arguments, many of which have been discussed. I am attempting to bound the discussion with the point that this is the same hull, all particulars the same save the smooth vs lap constuction. I've seen many dicussions digress into "Design A with construction X vs. Design B with construction Y" arguments ;) . I know that if, for example, lap ply is significantly lighter, that affects such things as the weight being driven through the water (good for performance) vs the reduction in WL length from floating a bit higher (bad for performance), etc.

All in all, I am hoping that lap play is significantly lighter with not too much loss in performance. Not only do I like the look and feel of the technique, but if I can get her a bit lighter to account for the trailer's weight, I should be able to haul her with my Dakota. It has a trailer hauling rating of about 6200 - 6600 pounds. Allegra's published displacement is 6500. No "curb weight" weight published, sigh. Displacement is (officially) total weight of floating body, including crew and stores and fluids. Now if only I knew whether they are describing an empty boat figure to make their ratio better, and if they do include crew, how many? She supposedly berths 4, so 4*150 pound (low) standard adult is at least 600 pounds and a significant difference from just one. Argh!

If my heart is really set on it, by the time I finish the boat I'll probably be due for a new truck anyway, so if weight is still an issue I'll have no problems upgrading if necessary. It'd still be nice to not need it, though, if I have babied the current truck along.

all right, wrapping up a longer-than intended post with preemptive thanks for any and all input.

Cheers
-Barrett

[Venchka]

Oh, this ought to be good.

Second Alegra discussion in a week.

Sitting back with popcorn and cold drink........

[Ian McColgin]

Contact Fred, it's his design.

In a boat of that size, you'd be re-engineering quite a bit to put in suitable frames to take the laps. I think that you might find that 'real' wood would end up more durable and more cost/effective and even lighter than plywood if you go lap, since you'll still need as much framing and the planking may need to be adjusted if it turns out that plywood give less longitudinal strength of a give hull thickness.

The frames will intrude on the living space. This may seem minor, but in a boat that size loosing 4" of useful interior beam is significant. I kid you not!

Of course, if you can redraw the accomodation to fit the narrower space, you can add a ceiling which will make the boat ever so much more pleasant inside.

Also with ply, there are more interesting problems of water intrusion around fastenings.

My impression supported mostly by prejudice is that plywood is more likely to succeed in a lapstrake hull if it's small and light enough to take major advantage of epoxy fastening. As you get to a bigger displacement, you may want to get more old fashioned.

Or less, and do the strip and mold. Or maybe even the Cutts method.

It would be a nice boat done stripped, varnished inside and either bright or painted out.

G'luck

[Keith Wilson]

My guess (and it's just a guess) is that there would be not much difference on either point. I haven't done the math, but I suspect that the necessary hull thickness in ply lapstrake would be a bit greater than strip/cold molded, and that the weight would be about the same because the glass sheathing would be eliminated. Internal framing would be about the same as well; both are relatively homogenous materials and don't need frames to hold the planks together like in traditional construction.

One point to consider is that Allegra is a short fat boat with some pretty severe curves, and it might be harder to bend the plywood planks than veneers or strip planking.

I doubt you'd notice any difference at all in sailing performance unless you were racing with an identical smooth-skinned boat with exactly the same quality of sails and level of crew skill. If you want to go fast, why build an Allegra anyway? Great boat, but in spite of the testimonials on the web site, it sure doesn't look like blazing speed would be one of her virtues. Sure would look pretty in lapstrake, though.

[ 04-14-2003, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[Scott Rosen]

Nice to see you back, Barrett.

Like the other posters, I have no technical knowledge to bring to this question. Just speculation. But since you asked . . .

I can't think of any reason not to build in plywood lap. If I were you, I would contact the designer ASAP and discuss it with him. Then contact an NA or equivalent to help with the scantlings.

One thing that may be a challenge is lining off the planks so they look right.

I think ply-lap would be the lightest construction, lighter than cold-molded. In ply-lap, each lap joint acts like a stringer, twice the thickness of the planking, and adds tremendous stiffness to the hull. Framing is kept to a minimum.

Also, you can vary the thickness of the hull, using thicker ply where you need the strength, and thinner ply everywhere else. Compared to a cold-molded hull where the entire hull has to be as thick as the thickest part, lap-ply would be lighter.

Sailing performance? Given the design (slow), I don't think it would make a noticable difference. However, if the hull is lighter than the design, you will have add more weight, preferably down low, so you would get a stiffer ride and may have more stability.

Good luck.

$0.02

[Barrett Faneuf]

Thanks for the thoughts, all..

It's evident I shall have to carefully review the study plans before making any decisions. From what I understand of lap ply, it requires fewer and/or lighter frames than the CM strip planked. I'll have to see what is originally called-for so I can estimate impact/difficulty of a conversion.

In the end I am not wholly adverse to building as designed. After all, wood is wood and I have first-hand experience with how gorgeouos a varnished interior can be. Though I REALLY don't envy the work to sand and refinish between all the frames of a strip planked boat like Ceol Mor.

And of course, when The Decision is made and wood starts being cut, appropriate updates and pictures will appear in this forum smile.gif . I don't tend to post unless I have a project to post about.

-Barrett

[ken mcclure]

Barrett, Eun Mara has been built strip-planked and cold-molded. Watercraft magazine ran a building series on the whole cold molding project. If you contact them, I'd bet you could get some statistics from them on the weight.

And IIRC, there's also a strip-planked one in AUS. Check this website (http://www.alistego.com) for some details and some links.

Look at duckflat wooden boats, too.

[ 04-14-2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: ken mcclure ]

[George Roberts]

Barrett Faneuf ---

Buy Dave Gerr's book, "Boat Strength". It has scantlings for more types of building than you would care to use.

You can do the math on your boat and determine which is lighter for the same strength or stronger for the same weight.

I think most people build based on $$$ or skills.

[Tonyr]

The outline specs from the posted link don't mention anything but strip plank - no additional cold molding over it. Are you sure it is required? I ask this because I happen to be building another 24 footer (power, this time), which is strip plank without no additional layers.

Since I an using three quarter inch eastern white cedar, which is quite soft, I will be covering it with epoxy and f***glass on the outside, like a strip composite hull, but adding a layer of cross planked cedar inside where needed to support the hull on the trailer and to stiffen things up generally.

Had you thought of this approach? Would it work with Allegra? (VERY pretty boat, by the way).

Tony.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Barrett Faneuf:
A while ago I bought the plans for Oughtred's Eun Mara,

I originally looked at the Eun Mara as a great boat fitting the parameters of : must be buildable in smallish one-car garage (what I had at the time), have good weekending capability, and be able to live on a trailer - I'll not be affording a mooring or slip anytime soon. Oh, and a seriously salty design with gaff rig of some sort is required.

Cheers
-BarrettOk, I don't get it. What am I missing? Eun Mara, by all acoounts, meets every one of your criteria. It is certainly more trailer friendly than the 6,500+ pound Allegra. Iain Oughtred has updated some of his designs lately. Perhaps you couild contact him and disucuss an updated, larger Eun Mara. His Grey Seal with a rig similar to Eun Mara's rig is another possibility.

You now have a proper building space. Great! Building Eun Mara in a garage would have been tricky at best. It seems to me that with the savings in time and money and larger tow vehicle you could be sailing Eun Mara years before launching Allegra.

If you are determined to have a bigger boat, why not tap into the wealth of design talent in the Puget Sound area, both U.S. and Canadian side, and have a local designer produce exactly the right boat or you? An undertaking of this magnitude deserves to be perfect from the plans right through to launch.

And there are other glued lap plywood designs with proven abilities slightly larger than Eun Mara. John Welsford's PENGUIN comes to mind. Paul Gartside has at least one as well. Ted Brewer is also nearby. Sam Devlin right there in Olympia. Have you searched the Design area of this Forum for trailerable boats? There is a lot of good information there.

Good luck!

[Barrett Faneuf]

Venchka, I hear you.

Eun Mara is not as desirable given bigger building space because of several reasons.

1. I would really, REALLY like a read heads. I'm female. That's my prerogative.

2. Standing room would be nice if spending more than a day on the boat. Eun Mara would be a weekender at best, an Allegra-sized boat could be a vacationer.

3. Room to breathe for 2 folks on a long weekend/ week's vacation - Michael expressed strong interest in a vessel he has a "bit of space" to feel comfortable in. Since he's being very brave about the whole "yes I love you and I'll go sailing with you, though I've never done so much as a ferry before" thing, I felt I'd like to give as much as I can from my end. I don't want his first exposure to boats to be crammed into a space much too short to stand in, with no bathroom privacy and cheek-to-jowl packing.

4. I like the big-boat feel. There have been discussions in the past about various comfort levels, with marked rise in comfort of (usually) women in a stabler boat. I don't know if this is truly gender-linked, but I can state that despite growing up sailing summers on a boat, a fairly good knowledge of how it all works, love to take the tiller, etc, I still am much more comfortable at a gut level if the boat isn't over on her ear. I can tell myself it's fine a million times, but dinghy and small boat sailing scares me for no rational reason. Eun Mara is by no means a dinghy, but she's not a keel boat.

I looked at Penguin, and yes she is the closest to Eun Mara... but many issues are the same - they're both 19 foot boats with swing-down keelage.

I have definitely considered talking to a designer, taking wants/needs and saying "can ya make this happen for me?". Actually the main drawback would be the expense.... have to research that, thanks.

Thanks for Input, taking all into consideration!
-Barrett

[ 04-15-2003, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Barrett Faneuf ]

[Venchka]

No worries!

Spousal concerns-I hear you. My first boat was a daysailer with full cast iron keel to make my wife feel safe. Didn't work. So, I had a small boat with big boat storage needs. I never went anywhere in it. Won't do that again.

All of that information does make sense. It's the 6,500+++ pounds of boat and trailer that would bother me more than anything. The boats center of gravity is WAY!!! up in the air. The trailer and tow vehicle will cost double or more. All costs will increase geometrically. I know people do it. However, I think a lighter boat will get in the water more often. Also, a lighter and shallower boat will work at more launches. There is a body of thought that says a boat's usage is inversely proportional to it's size. Or in this case, trailer weight. Smaller gets used more often.

Because Penguin has a transom, 21' LOA and a head it's bigger than Eun Mara. But sounds like you've been there and it doesn't work for you.

Full keels don't automatically make for a safer boat. Have you looked at Karl Stambaugh's Trailer Sailor 24? There are many other ways to achieve safety and stability without trying to drag several extra tons of lead up a slippery slimey launch ramp.

Turning Allegra into a glued-lap plywood boat will cost money. Put that money toward a custom design. The cost of a custom design will seem minor when you have YOUR very own PERSONAL design. If that gets you lapstrake planking, very seaworthy 3 sail yawl rig, salty good looks AND saves a ton or more of lead so you don't need a 1 ton 4X4 truck to haul the boat around, you will laugh all the way to the water.

It's springtime. Flowers blooming. Get out for a few days, go to Vancouver Island, visit Paul Gartside. See what he has to offer. Better hurry, he likes to take his 22' boat up the Inside Passage this time of year.

I can ramble. Sorry.

Good luck! Buy a digital camera for progress photos.

[Venchka]

Barrett,

From a post over in the Design/Plans section:

"we have discussed the boat over many beers, And I have to say, It is one of the best cruising designs for first time boatbuilders.

It is made to be built in sporatic time periods, as home builders often have, and it is easy to build under a tarp."

This goes to the heart of the matter far better than my rambling on.

Cheers!

[Alan D. Hyde]

One thought about lapstrake that I haven't seen expressed in this thread so far is that, under each of the lapping strakes which are in the water, a cushion of air or air bubbles forms. A lapstrake hull thus tends to be more "slippery" (and thus faster) than a carvel hull of the same weight and form.

It also rides better, since each lapping strake forms a "step" which eases it more gradually into seas, much like Bertram's "Moppie" type hull in the motorboat world.

We got into this sort of discussion somewhat a while back with respect to a classic Scandanavian lapstrake (clinker) vessel that's now located (as I recall) near mmd somewhere. I'm afraid her name's escaped me for the moment, but someone here will likely be able to send you to that thread... :D Every good wish, Barrett, whatever you decide.

Alan

[Barrett Faneuf]

Wayne,

Thanks a bunch for your thoughts.

I have always had serious lust for Paul Gartside's designs. The only problem with most of the published sets is, if it has any headroom at all, it has a deep heavy keel which goes right back to the trailering issue.

I will certainly talk to him, however. Noting says that that's the only kind of boat he makes.

I absolutely agree about cost up front vs. lifetime costs. I'm an engineer myself, so I am deeply entrenched in the theory of "a dollar spent on design saves ten (or a hundred) in hassle and redesign".

Gartside really is that close, isn't he? HMMMMMMM... Ross and Lois (parents, owners of Ceol Mor) are coming out to a Vanvouver, BC conference + kid visit in June.. SOunds like a perfect opportunity to go poke a nose in Gartside's studio.

I'm not sure what your later post refers to .. "we have discussed the boat over many beers, And I have to say, It is one of the best cruising designs for first time boatbuilders.".. I have looked at Karl's Trailer Sailer 24 if that's what you're referring to.. hated it on first sight. I am really leery of vulnerable pivoting leeboards. Also don't like cats much (in a small boat sense).

-Barrett

[ 04-16-2003, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Barrett Faneuf ]

[Dave Fleming]

We got into this sort of discussion somewhat a while back with respect to a classic Scandanavian lapstrake (clinker) vessel that's now located (as I recall) near mmd somewhere. I'm afraid her name's escaped me for the moment, but someone here will likely be able to send you to that thread... Every good wish, Barrett, whatever you decide.You thinking of ELLY, Alan?
The thread was in Design along with a number of photos.

[Bill Perkins]

Barrett ; just kicking the can a little farther down the road .

It seems to me that a boat that can be trailered and launch/retrieved as easily as a 19 footer doesn't need to be a home away from home .When on a "cruise" you could make the long passages on the highway , launching the boat for a day or a week in areas most interesting for poking about in . At night you could then return to a campsite with flush toilets and hot showers , or maybe a rented cottage ,with occasional overnights on the boat in anchorages just too nice to resist . Money saved by not getting involved with bigger boat bigger car could pay for this pluss some dinners out at the local restaurants , if any .

I 've explored some of the Maine coast this way with a daysailer , and seen some rocky nooks and cranies I couldn't have in a bigger boat . If the weather turns bad you can instantly transform yourselves into car tourists , or drive right out of a compact weather system and launch again .There'd seldom be a need to hunker down in a tiny cabin for days .

[ 04-16-2003, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: Bill Perkins ]

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Venchka:
It is made to be built in sporatic time periods, as home builders often have, and it is easy to build under a tarp."The boat discussed was a Stambaugh design-Bahama Mama.

I wasn't really talking about any speciffic design, but rather the idea of a design specific to one-off backyard building. This is where a fresh new design with all of your input would be very favorable.

OK, so you get Allegra redesigned for lapstrake planking. You hitch it up to the biggest 4x4 truck you can find with 10,000 pound towing capacity. You search out all the ramps where you can launch and recover Allegra. Tide levels might be important here. How much trouble will it be to set up that masthead rig? I'm guessing a pain in the KAZOO. There's a reason why Karl's Trailer Sailor 24 has the rig it has. You can actually raise and lower it easily. And it's simpler. Same goes for the leeboards.

Let's face it, "trailerable" in many cases is marketing talk. Technically, any boat at or below 8' beam is trailerable. Practically, there are a lot of other factors which make a boat a joy to trailer, launch and sail.

Talk to people who have boats on trailers. Find out what works and find out which boats live in the water because rigging and launching is a major pain.

End of rant. I'll crawl back under my rock and work on my latest Big Lifter Thing.

All the best to you!

[Wild Dingo]

Barrett good to see you again! :cool:

Just one simple question... why have you tossed over Oughtreds Grey Seal? Im trying for the life of me to understand but fail to do so as it would appear to meet all your needs bar none... Iain as a designer is from all reports about him a pretty approachable fella maybe a short note to him explaining your needs could result in precisely what your looking for??

Anyway best of luck with it and dont be a stranger! :cool:

[Ross Faneuf]

Well, dearie (THIS IS YOUR FATHER SPEAKING...) smile.gif smile.gif

I'd be rather seriously concerned about trailering a boat that big/heavy. It's a real handful to manage that kind of package with anything but a relatively large pickup - something in the 250/350 class minimum. Experience helps, as well. I suspect you're way out of the Dakota class.

Bob Hicks' magazine MAIB has had several horror stories of people trying to haul too-big boats with too-small trucks and too-little experience. Including a scary series of a boat on its side in one lane of Rte 128 after the driver lost control.

Anyway; construction techniques. You certainly know how much work stip/veneer etc. can be, and I have little doubt ply would be quicker. You might also consider glued seam carvel/epoxy coated, which would work very well in this size range. And don't forget that even CM has a lot more work in the rest of the boat than in the hull.

A lot of designers are happy (for $) to respecify a hull for different materials. I'd always ask the designer about alternatives first.

Any you never know; you might luck into some kind of mooring/slip deal which would make the trailer unnecessary.

And it's a family tradition to change your mind about the design you want to build at least once...

[Barrett Faneuf]

Re: Masthead rigging;

Just as reference, I would not be going with the masthead rig, rather the stated gaff-on-tabernacle rig, which though not pictured at the link, is listed as an available rig. As usual, I will learn more upon receiving the study plans.

Re: Grey Seal: Like her a lot, but have concerns
1) Headroom looks marginally more than Eun Mara; still not much, 2) don't care for the rig, though I'll bet that could be adjusted. 3) No mention is made of trailer-worthiness - Centerboard on one pictured design, ew. I liked Eun Mara for the bilge plates. 4) don't know displacement (weight)

Believe me I am going to talk to designers to get the skinny on a custom design. These things don't happen in the span of hours, though I wish they could.

I am by no means married to any one design, set plans, etc provide a means of finding something I like. Relative ease of setting and strinking the rig, trailer weight (bts my truck is already a 4X4 to deal with the variety of steep/shallow launcing ramps around here), and headroom/accomodation issues all need to balance. I want something that can be put in the water for at least a weekend and (hopefully) up to a week at a time and be comfortable and enjoyable in that time, conforming to not only my but Michael's comfort needs. Stable and seaworthy in case of weather. Allegra simply seemed to fit the bill very well. I brought up weight as a concern for my current truck, but I can be very honest with myself. By the time I could finish a boat of this type - and to me the building is at least as much the goal as the having - I'll likely need a new one. At that time I can trade/in for one appropriate for the boat. So it's not a HUGE issue.

The inverse ratio of size to usage may well be true, but I am stubboner than many ;) .

Oh well, ramble, ramble, rationalize, rationalize smile.gif . I plan on talking to Oughtred (who I know makes designs I like), Gartside (who makes pretty designs locally), and Fred Bingham (Allegra designer) to see what I can see.

-Barrett

[Keith Wilson]

IMHO, Allegra is WAY too big to trailer regularly and have it be any kind of pleasant experience. There are two kinds of trailering; moving a boat occasionally between places where it will stay for a long time, and launching a boat every time you want go sailing. Allega is not a boat you can reasonably launch every time you want to sail. You can trailer her, of course, given a big enough tow vehicle, a high-capacity trailer, and a well-paved steep launch ramp (or a long tongue extension), and you can work out a way of stepping the mast without a crane, but the combination of deep draft, heavy weight, and a tall rig doesn't make things easy.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Keith Wilson:
IMHO, Allegra is WAY too big to trailer regularly and have it be any kind of pleasant experience. ... but the combination of deep draft, heavy weight, and a tall rig doesn't make things easy.Amen, Keith.

A properly designed shoal draft keel + centerboard arrangement can be quite seaworthy. AND have the ability to instantly reduce draft to avoid banging into something that will ruin your whole day.
Grey Specs (http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/dfwbphp/boatPAGE.php?type=spec&ID=1034)
Grey Seal Specs 2 (http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/dfwbphp/pictureDISPLAY.php?ID=144)

http://www.independenceboatworks.com/Images/GreySeal_12.jpg

http://www.independenceboatworks.com/Images/GreySeal_16.jpg

[Venchka]

Grey Seal-The Whole Story (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JamesWagner/index.html)

[Alan D. Hyde]

Thanks, Dave.

I was thinking of Elly.

Barrett, have a look at the Elly thread, and see how much more bulk lapstrake lets a vessel carry, without loss of speed or looks. :D

Alan

[Dave Fleming]

This is the ELLY photo thread.

ELLY (http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=001597&p=)

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Dave Fleming:
This is the ELLY photo thread.
Makes your eyes bleed, don't it?

[Barrett Faneuf]

I've seen and drooled over ELLY before. Still, no head, no standing headroom, sigh.

Grey seal is gorgeous, lacks standing headroom, a rig I like, a head separate from the sleeping compartment, I prefer plumb bows, sigh.

Thanks for the input, Daddy~ I have realized that while something like the Allegra might be within the specs of the Dakota (which with the 5.2L V8, heavy-duty suspension and transfer case, and class IV trailer package it has is 10,500 pounds, frighteningly enough), that leaves aside experience. I've towed a couple not-light cars on not-light trailers behind the Dakota (guessing ~4000 lbs towed weight), and it was effortless at 65 MPH up and down Seattle's section of I-5, and up a boat-ramp-steep car lot in the inevitable rain. That's not a boat with high C.G. though. If the Only Possible Choice is an Allegra I would upgrade the truck at the appropriate time if I had to. I FIRMLY believe in not exceeding either the vehicle's or driver's capabilities. As an aside, while my truck was in the shop last year I got to rent a 2003 model year full-sized Chevy Silverado. Drool.

To put fears at rest; I am NOT wildly going off and building something just because I want to. I have written a letter to John Welsford about his Penguin and possibility of customizing/slightly enlarging to suit, and/or new design.

I may similarly contact Iain Oughtred, though hes SO slow to resond to inquiries. Welsford has email smile.gif .

I really appreciate all the input.

-Barrett

[ 04-17-2003, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: Barrett Faneuf ]

[JimConlin]

If the trade-off is between a boat's accommodations and the weight (and CG height) to be trailered, a folding trimaran might be worth considering. Relative to monohulls, they're light and don't have those pesky keels that make 'em stand so tall on the trailer.

[Barrett Faneuf]

Promising update:

John Welsford replied incredibly fast to my design inquiry.

Possibilities have been waved about of a custom design. Double-ended, possible yawl rig, lapstrake ply, stub keel with CB to keep her low on the trailer, and headroom + head possibilities are all there, with thoughts to ready trailerability and weight.

I'll let that all stew with him for a bit, but I'm very excited at the possibility of a design to suit my needs instead of the frustration of trying to make stock plans fit. If this works out I'll be to oexcited to speak.. ok, not really. smile.gif

-Barett

[Venchka]

You go, Girl! smile.gif

Keep us posted on the progress.

[TomRobb]

Barrett,
Speaking of Power Chicks, you might profitably discuss this with Barbara Burnside, Paul Gartside's better half. She, no doubt, understands your perspective re head/headroom, and can, again no doubt, communicate efectively with her husband who draws/builds some gorgeous boats.
And a trip to Victoria would be well worth it.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by TomRobb:
Barrett,
Speaking of Power Chicks, you might profitably discuss this with Barbara Burnside, Paul Gartside's better half.Barrett,

I think you're on to something here. Female collaboration on a trailer friendly boat that a woman can love. smile.gif smile.gif

[Barrett Faneuf]

Another update:

John Welsford and I have had an extensive conversation. He's going to draw up a boat to meet my needs. Something based on a scaled-up version of his 6m whaler, something like 24' LOD, trailerable with a stub keel+centerboard, about 2 tons dry on hte trailer, standing headroom at galley/head, REAL head, thank you very much! Double ender, lapstrake plywood, yawl rig. He described his idea as "Eun Mara's big sister on steroids". Which sounds perfect. I am eagerly awaiting concept sketches. I will keep all posted, though likely will make a new thread over in Designs/Plans, as that seems the appropriate place for discussions of this sort. He's reducing the design fee so that he can retain the selling rights (an opportunity I leaped at), so there is every chance that the "Female-friendly trailer-cruiser" will be available for other folks with my needs!

He has a pile o' work on his plate, unlikely to get to drafting the full plans until October. Ah, well. That gives me time to build a workshed, and build that new dining table we need.

Thanks all for the encouragement and ideas! I would not have really thought of (gasp) contacting a designer directly if not for this forum. Yeah, it seems elementary and that's what they DO, but it just hadn't sunk in.

Best,
-Barrett

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Good news! As an owner of Eun Mara plans I've watched this thread closely. For all the bad press Iain gets I've had very speedy communications with him. My son (13) Gavin and I sent off a check on April 7th for plans for his Faering ELF and they came yesterday! And he mentions someone building a 110% Eun Mara in Maine! He said there were three Eun Maras at the festival in Goolwa.
Good luck, keep us posted.
Steven

[Venchka]

Barrett,

It's nice to know that consructive ideas came from the Forum.

John W's. Whaler is a fine craft. It was on my very short list before deciding to have Iain O's. Caledonia Yawl built. If he applies the same building technique he uses for Penguin you will thank him many times and many $$$$ over. While not apparent in the plans, if you talk to folks building his boats and look at pictures on the Internet, you see that John's boats have almost no waste in the form of molds, etc. His use of bulkheads, frames and stringers to define the hull before planking is very cost effective, time efficient and produces a very strong boat for it's weight and materials used.

Thanks for giving John the chance to sell the plans to the world! You should buy John's Boatbuilding book to read while you wait for the plans.

Here's a thought I've been kicking around-a dodger+full cockpit tent to expand a small boat's living space.

Cheers!