Screw Question One More Time...

[Capt. Ken]

Sorry for asking the same question for the 3rd time but,
1. I feel like no one is actually answering what I am asking
2. I would love to get more than 5 responses- seriously, some are getting 77 answers.
This is my very first project, a 30 foot cc sedan, 1953 mahogany. It has (does anyone actually know how many?) Bronze screws. I have taken a quite few bungs out and found that a lot of the screws just spin, they wont tighten.
Question: Would there be any serious reason why I couldnt just drive new screws close but not too close to the old ones, in order to save the time of 1. checking them all and 2. removing all the loose ones. I mean if I epoxy the hull thoroughly I won't need to seal it again for another 50 years, right?

[C. Ross]

Captain-you'll get the hang of this pretty soon. The last two threads you started have some good advice and end with some good questions. Answer the questions, and you'll get more advice.

What I get out of the other threads:

1. Ideally, you should unscrew all of them and replace with a slightly longer and larger guage bronze screw. People want to know what you mean by broken - do the heads pop off, or does the whole screw come out? (If the heads pop off, it's harder because you want to get the screw out if you can. THere are tools and tricks for extracting a broken screw. Search the forum and you'll find some advice. If the whole thing spins out, it's easier.)

2. No, you don't need to or want to epoxy them in place.

3. You don't want to put in new screws next to the existing ones. Sometimes you have to do it, but not on a whole hull. Too many screw holes too close together weakens the plank.

4. Cold molding over the existing hull? A bad idea. That hull is likely to rot pretty quickly. And if there are loose screws on the existing hull, cold molding over it will not make it stronger.

5. Use only bronze screws. They are expensive. Search for other threads here, or when you get answers to your other questions continue this thread and ask people where they buy screws inexpensively.

You might look at the WoodenBoat store for books about boat restoration. Even a book about runabout restoration would be helpful if you're reading the sections about carvel planked boats. If you can afford to buy one or two, great. If not, libraries usually have one or two decent boat repair books.

Good luck. Read the answers you get, ask more questions, keep the thread going, and you'll get there....

[SMARTINSEN]

People want to know what you mean by broken

I read this to mean the the screws are spun out in the holes.

There is a little double-ended gizmo--I forget the name--that chucks into your drill. On one end is a drill that drills a cone-shaped pilot hole into the top of the spun out screw. Flip it over, re-chuck it, and it is a left-handed thread that will bit into the drilled out area and back the old screw out. I have not used one, but it seems that it would work in this instance where a soft bronze screw is not very tightly embedded into the plank or frame. Kind of like the principle of the threaded version of an E-Z-out. For a few bucks, it might be worth a try.

[S B]

Many or all of the screws have "grown into the hull", disturbing them ,in the attempt to tighten the hull ,won't help. be careful as to how much improvement you need to do.

[Capt. Ken]

ok I think I get it now, sort of.
The answer to the what is the problem with the screws is that some are not tight and will tighten with a hand screwdriver and some just do not tighten but do not feel like they are broken. So, now I know that cold molding is not cool at all so I won't do it. I am under the impression that epoxy is the best way to go to seal it all up. You say that adding screws next to ALL the other screws would weaken the plank. Is this because if I do them too close I will possibly split somewhere? Is there a strategic way I could go about refastening this boat without taking out every single bung and checking out every screw?

[MikeVT]

Perhaps your continued questions and pleas stems from not liking the answers. I think you are getting very good advice so far.
There are two volumes of a book entitled; How to restore you Wooden Runabout" by Don Danenburg, That has some info you might find useful. I love shortcuts when they do the job well. Watch out for judgement impaired by impatience.

[outofthenorm]

some just do not tighten but do not feel like they are broken.

Might have been said already, but if the screw is spinning, but not broken, it means that the wood has deteriorated around the screw. You have to ask why. It's probably rot, metal sickness, or tear-out from a screw that was over-torqued when it was put in. The only solution is to remove the screw, drill out and repair the damage, then put in a new fastener. There's no other safe reliable way to go.

If the screw itself is "rotten", you have to ask why. Loose electrical current? Dis-similar metals? Bad batch of screws? What you know for sure is that something is wrong somewhere. Realize that if there is one bad screw, there's more than one. Also, if the screw has "gone bad", so has the wood around it. Guaranteed.

If the screw is broken, you have to ask why. Shear is one likely cause, which means that one big piece of wood is moving relative to another big piece of wood, in a direction it shouldn't be moving at all. If one screw is broken, there ARE more the same. You can bet your life on that - and you are.



epoxy is the best way to go to seal it all up.

Not to be flippant, but that's a statement loaded for disaster. There are literally dozens of threads that discuss this topic because it's way complicated. Tread lightly!


You say that adding screws next to ALL the other screws would weaken the plank. Is this because if I do them too close I will possibly split somewhere?

Not possibly - probably. Here's the basics: Holes weaken the wood all out of proportion to their size. Having just one hole is better than having two. Two holes close together create a concentration of forces right at the weakest point - especially if one hole has a screw in it and the other one doesn't.


Is there a strategic way I could go about refastening this boat without taking out every single bung and checking out every screw?

In a word, no. If you know that "many" of the screws are spinning in their holes, you have to assume that they ALL are, until proven otherwise. A proper re-fastening is an all or nothing proposition. You don't necessarily have to replace them all - but you do have to examine them all. Again, it's the only safe way to go.

- Norm

[ssor]

Some of the best advise I have ever heard says, that you should do such a job that when you are offshore and a storm pipes up you don't have any concern about your workmanship.

[Thorne]

Captain-you'll get the hang of this pretty soon. The last two threads you started have some good advice and end with some good questions. Answer the questions, and you'll get more advice.


What C. Ross said!

The process here needs to be a 2-way street -- we keep asking questions trying to help define your issues and they rarely get answered. No answers from you = no good info from us.

For example you MUST be able to tell the difference between brass and bronze screws -- both were used "back in the day" (on some boats) but the latter is good and can be left in place, the former bad should be replaced (in most cases).

[Lew Barrett]

You need to seek out local help as well. Restoration is different than building and has it's own strictures.

Do not epoxy your fasteners in place. Period.

You should not judge your reception by the quantity of your answers, but rather the quality!:)

Your leanings in respect to how you want to accomplish this (ssor hints directly, others do as well) are antithetical to the spirit of restoration. Up here it's polite, and people will try to be helpful, but you are getting a series of sideways responses (Cris has tackled it head-on, though) that suggests you're not asking the right questions yet.

Developing a sound plan for your boat is the first step. You haven't completed the first step, but are already arriving at conclusions that many would not, so people are reluctant to wade in since there is so much more to be said and discussed, and each question opens another door with more questions.

Here's the thing: when repairing and restoring old boats, the best way is often the most methodical, and hence the fussiest. There is, however, one harder way. That's doing everything wrong or the easiest, cheapest way, and then discovering that what you have on your hands is a total loss. Ross suggests you don't want to have that happen three miles off shore.

Welcome, and try to tackle this one step at a time. Have you had a survey yet? What did the surveyor suggest?

[Gary E]

Sorry for asking the same question for the 3rd time but,
1. I feel like no one is actually answering what I am asking
2. I would love to get more than 5 responses- seriously, some are getting 77 answers.
This is my very first project, a 30 foot cc sedan, 1953 mahogany. It has (does anyone actually know how many?) Bronze screws. I have taken a quite few bungs out and found that a lot of the screws just spin, they wont tighten.
Question: Would there be any serious reason why I couldnt just drive new screws close but not too close to the old ones, in order to save the time of 1. checking them all and 2. removing all the loose ones. I mean if I epoxy the hull thoroughly I won't need to seal it again for another 50 years, right?

I see your new....Welcome to the forum...
I shoot STRAIGHT... no BS...
You've got a 55 plus yr old boat....
It's got a hellof a lot of screws... more than your ever gona want to or have time to remove.

You want to RESTORE it or just GET IT FLOATING??

How old are you?... Ya wanta get this boat in the water in less that 2 yrs??? And ohh... what water?... inland smooth lake? or an ocean or sloppy choppy bay or worse?? If anything worse than the inland smooth lake or perhaps a calm river, you bougt the wrong boat, SELL or GIVE IT AWAY BEFORE YOU GET IN DEEP TROUBLE.

If a inland lake/river and you want to get floating in less than 2 or 3 yrs...
Drill a hole next to the screws that spin and put in another screw, dont waste time on removing the old one if it takes you more than 5 mins to get the old loose one out. It wont hurt a thing to leave it in there.

Forgit epoxy or glass or anything else you might get convinced that is the magic material to cover the boat with... It's not worth the hassle or the expense or the time it will take to apply it...

What engine does it have?
A old flathead 6 will be a nice slow engine for this age boat and as long as you run it slow in calm water you should be ok... and if your not ok, your gona be within sight of land and hopefully the big bilge pump you will install will keep it flating while you get back to the dock... Then again, if it doesent, you wont have a buncha bucks invested in a really old worn out boat with about zero for investement and if it sinks you havent lost a ton of money...

Get it floating, have some fun, and dont expect it to become a clasic... unless you got a checkbook like Bill Gates.

Good luck

[outofthenorm]

Developing a sound plan for your boat is the first step. You haven't completed the first step, but are already arriving at conclusions that many would not, so people are reluctant to wade in since there is so much more to be said and discussed, and each question opens another door with more questions.



Well said and exactly right (as usual) Lew.

[Vinny&Shawn]

Many people restore wooden boats of all types.
Refastening is usually part of the job. It is not easy, but tedious and time consuming and a most important part of rebuilding.
Most of the time you have to remove the old fastener and refasten with a larger size.
Take out he bungs, do it, it is part of the satisfaction of a job done once and done properly.

[Capt. Ken]

I see your new....Welcome to the forum...
I shoot STRAIGHT... no BS...
You've got a 55 plus yr old boat....
It's got a hellof a lot of screws... more than your ever gona want to or have time to remove.

You want to RESTORE it or just GET IT FLOATING??

How old are you?... Ya wanta get this boat in the water in less that 2 yrs??? And ohh... what water?... inland smooth lake? or an ocean or sloppy choppy bay or worse?? If anything worse than the inland smooth lake or perhaps a calm river, you bougt the wrong boat, SELL or GIVE IT AWAY BEFORE YOU GET IN DEEP TROUBLE.

If a inland lake/river and you want to get floating in less than 2 or 3 yrs...
Drill a hole next to the screws that spin and put in another screw, dont waste time on removing the old one if it takes you more than 5 mins to get the old loose one out. It wont hurt a thing to leave it in there.

Forgit epoxy or glass or anything else you might get convinced that is the magic material to cover the boat with... It's not worth the hassle or the expense or the time it will take to apply it...

What engine does it have?
A old flathead 6 will be a nice slow engine for this age boat and as long as you run it slow in calm water you should be ok... and if your not ok, your gona be within sight of land and hopefully the big bilge pump you will install will keep it flating while you get back to the dock... Then again, if it doesent, you wont have a buncha bucks invested in a really old worn out boat with about zero for investement and if it sinks you havent lost a ton of money...

Get it floating, have some fun, and dont expect it to become a clasic... unless you got a checkbook like Bill Gates.

Good luck

Indeed, perhaps this is the question I should have asked. What should I do at minimal to get it to float without risking sinking it?
I am 35 yrs old and run a full time business, so it would be great to have it on the dock just for relaxing and an occasional trip to the cove. Its a small calm lake. I have the flat six and it runs well. I dont want it to win any shows or to sell it for a profit. I'd just like to hang out, get drunk and watch girls get naked on it, nothing more nothing less. Pics are at http://www.flickr.com/photos/34720969@N05/ Knowing that I dont have to epoxy it is a big relief. I would like to get it looking nice and let it sit in the slip for a while without worrying about it.

[BBSebens]

oooooh.. I see lots of potential.

This could be a real beauty. The kind of boat that makes girls think your loaded. now thats not really my motivation, but it works.

You could do the minimum to get it floating (you have some holes to patch i see) and slap on a nice coat of paint, and go enjoy it. for a bit. the trouble comes in a few years, or even less than that, when the problems you have covered over come back through. I dare say it will become way more of a money pit than a boat in good condition is to begin with. (BOAT: bring out another thousand) and if thats what you want then so be it. its your boat.

i don't mean to be snobbish, but i think maybe you ought to sell this to someone who wants to do her right, and buy a nice 'glass boat. Sounds like that might be more suited to your... goals.

[C. Ross]

If your goal is naked girls and getting drunk, and not drowning anybody by sinking your boat, I'd suggest two options.

One, get a fiberglass or metal boat. They are more forgiving.

Two, take out as many screws as you can and replace them with slightly larger bronze screws.

Gary's advice to drill more holes as a timesaver makes no sense to me. Takes less time to pop bungs, pull and replace than it does to drill, countersink, and bung new holes. The old screws are likely to leak. Plus you are almost guaranteed to crack a plank or a frame with new screws, and if you miss the frame you've got to plug another new hole in your boat.

For god's sake don't epoxy or fiberglass anything.

In a couple of years, you may want to upgrade the class of girl on your boat or increase the chances of nudity, and then you can go back and do the job more thoroughly. Yacht it up a little, you know? A little more Paris Hilton and less Paris Texas.

When you're ready, read a book on restoration, come back to this forum, or ask someone who knows wooden boats. But you'll never get a second chance if you damage your boat now. Don't put more holes in your boat, don't leave in the old weak screws to pop and leak, and just forget the epoxy. Seriously. And keep up with routine maintenance.

Good luck.

[Eric D]

I'd just like to hang out, get drunk and watch girls get naked on it, nothing more nothing less.

I would like to get it looking nice and let it sit in the slip for a while without worrying about it.

those 2 phrases will turn off many people who have valuable advice to give.

good luck.

[Gary E]

I looked at the pictures... what I could see, which taint much, looks like it's missing a buncha boards on the bottom...

Get someone local to you to help you fix it, it's not hard, just takes time.

As far as drilling for a new screw hole, why not, Here's the situation...
You twisted off the head of a screw trying to remove it.
It's not loose, and you want to make sure it's tight.
PUT IN ANOTHER SCREW NEAR IT... dun.
Now you have at least one screws worth of holding maybe 2
and not wasted time fiddilin with a maybe its holding screw.
Fugadabout it... it's dun
Now on to whutz Next....

As for fiberglasing... fugadaboutit
as for epoxy.... fagidaboudit
as for any other newfangled crapt that the Xperts on this forum say you must use or would be best.... FAGADABOUTIT

If that's a plywood hull, use marine ply IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY... If not, use EXTERIOR... and make sure it's PAINTED WELL....

Your in a inland little calm lake.... CAPICHE ???
Rock on and have a blast

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

That boat is reasonably rare, and deserves to be restored properly. It takes a lot of time, and a fair bit of money to bring a boat that size back to it's former glory. You might be better off buying glass, and selling that boat to someone prepared for the restoration.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I looked at the pictures... what I could see, which taint much, looks like it's missing a buncha boards on the bottom...

Get someone local to you to help you fix it, it's not hard, just takes time.

As far as drilling for a new screw hole, why not, Here's the situation...
You twisted off the head of a screw trying to remove it.
It's not loose, and you want to make sure it's tight.
PUT IN ANOTHER SCREW NEAR IT... dun.
Now you have at least one screws worth of holding maybe 2
and not wasted time fiddilin with a maybe its holding screw.
Fugadabout it... it's dun
Now on to whutz Next....

As for fiberglasing... fugadaboutit
as for epoxy.... fagidaboudit
as for any other newfangled crapt that the Xperts on this forum say you must use or would be best.... FAGADABOUTIT

If that's a plywood hull, use marine ply IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY... If not, use EXTERIOR... and make sure it's PAINTED WELL....

Your in a inland little calm lake.... CAPICHE ???
Rock on and have a blast

Sorry Gary, but all that advice is either incorrect, or just plain bad.

[gert]

This will be a beautiful boat assuming it's not rotten.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3522/3227300726_efd11d7edd.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3534/3227293386_75e8ea6887.jpg
Is this a Monk?

[C. Ross]

Is this a Monk?

It's a 1955 Chris Craft sedan - see first post.

There's something very much like it in the shop next to my boat right now. I love the bullnose bow, and the aero/auto styling. Could be a beaut.

[Gary E]

Sorry Gary, but all that advice is either incorrect, or just plain bad.

Sorry Pete... your wrong, he just wants it FLOATING...
You're starting to sound like Moneybags II..with a Bill Gates checking account

If on the otherhand, your pockets are full of cash and your checkbook is filled up like Bill gates, then spend the $$$$$$$$ to "restore" it.. otherwise, it's GET it floating...

[C. Ross]

Sorry Pete... your wrong, he just wants it FLOATING...
You're starting to sound like Moneybags II..with a Bill Gates checking account

If on the otherhand, your pockets are full of cash and your checkbook is filled up like Bill gates, then spend the $$$$$$$$ to "restore" it.. otherwise, it's GET it floating...

We all understand what he wants to do, Gary.

But your advice will take more time, cost more money, and create more long-term problems than removing and replacing existing screws. Short term and long term.

[Gary E]

We all understand what he wants to do, Gary.

But your advice will take more time, cost more money, and create more long-term problems than removing and replacing existing screws. Short term and long term.

Disagree...
And your intitled to your opinion, even tho its wrong

A bad screw does no harm by staying where it is.

[Thad Van Gilder]

I looked at the pictures... what I could see, which taint much, looks like it's missing a buncha boards on the bottom...

Get someone local to you to help you fix it, it's not hard, just takes time.

As far as drilling for a new screw hole, why not, Here's the situation...
You twisted off the head of a screw trying to remove it.
It's not loose, and you want to make sure it's tight.
PUT IN ANOTHER SCREW NEAR IT... dun.
Now you have at least one screws worth of holding maybe 2
and not wasted time fiddilin with a maybe its holding screw.
Fugadabout it... it's dun
Now on to whutz Next....

As for fiberglasing... fugadaboutit
as for epoxy.... fagidaboudit
as for any other newfangled crapt that the Xperts on this forum say you must use or would be best.... FAGADABOUTIT

If that's a plywood hull, use marine ply IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY... If not, use EXTERIOR... and make sure it's PAINTED WELL....

Your in a inland little calm lake.... CAPICHE ???
Rock on and have a blast

Are you retarded? Perhaps you would have this guy drive piles under the boat so that it can't sink from under him.

-Thad

[donald branscom]

Maybe that boat is like a science experiment in the refrigerator....Its beautiful ,more beautiful byy the day BUT you know the day is coming you will have to get rid of it.

Seriously though if it was my boat I would hire a very experienced wood boat restorer for a few hours to look at it and maybe even replace some screw just to get a feel for the project and then have that person give me recommendations on its repairs and procedures.