Finish for mahogany

[Jodi Cooper]

Ok, I am ready to re-enforce my hatch cover and probably will use either Titebond III or Gorilla Glue. Any suggestions? I was reading up on finishes and will either go with Cetol or a product I found called Waterlox. Has anybody used Waterlox? It is a blend of tung oil, resin and mineral spirits. It sounds ideal for inside and out. You don't need to ever sand down to bare wood either. Go to waterlox.com and check it out. I know Cetol is good stuff but this sounds pretty user friendly. Also, should I just leave the bronze pretty much alone except for cleaning with some Brasso. I think I read that the patina (green) is protective. Is this true? Thanks for your help

[Vinny&Shawn]

Well Jodi, I have used Waterlox before and wasn't too satisfied with the long term results. It would get a Grey hue to it after exposure to the marine environment. For a hatch such as yours, being on deck and exposed to salt spray etc. a good varnish and many coats,with a hatch cover for when you aren't there to take care of it. I am not to familiar with Cetol but understand it is a little temperamental,not sure?
My fore hatch on Acacia has multiple coats of marine varnish and has held up well for 3 years, don't know if it will need maintenance this year.
As far as the bronze goes,I am not one to polish, wipe it off once and awhile with a cloth sprayed with a good corrosion inhibitor. I think the oxidation looks good to a limit! Vinny

[Jodi Cooper]

Yeah, I was thinking I like the look of the patina on the bronze too. I will make a cover for the hatch for sure. Maybe Shawn can help me...I'm not much of a seamstress (I wrote sewer but that didn't come out right!!!) What about glue, any ideas? Oh, I tried a mixture of salt, vinegar and water with flour to make a paste, on the bronze...amazing! You just let it sit for a bit and wash it off while rubbing it. It was terribly green to start so I had to do something. It will patina gracefully now and I can clean it when I need to. I definetely won't varnish the brinze.

[Thorne]

Don't know about the oils, but I wouldn't use Gorilla Glue -- if you want to use a polyurethane glue, PL Premium Construction Adhesive is a MUCH stronger yet inexpensive waterproof glue that only foams up a tiny amount compared to GG.

[Jodi Cooper]

I was sort of leaning toward the Titebond III because it doesn't foam up and because it is water clean-up. It was recommended on the Jamestown Dist. site too.

[Vinny&Shawn]

I was sort of leaning toward the Titebond III because it doesn't foam up and because it is water clean-up. It was recommended on the Jamestown Dist. site too.

What was that salad dressing on the bronze?
I have used Titebond III since its inception, for repairs above the waterline or glue up for new projects,no failures yet.
As far as sewing yes Shawn is good,we both design and cut our canvas covers. You are welcome to use our industrial machines anytime!

[Jodi Cooper]

The salad dressing...hee-hee. Here it is, and this depends on how much you wanna make. For a half cup-1/2 teaspoon salt, 1/2 cup white vinegar and enough flour to make a paste. Rub it on and let it sit for up to an hour. Rub and wash it off. I think I'll go with TitebondIII. It's going to be varnished over anyway. Does it dry clear? And does it adhere to mahogany? Have you ever used Shellac? It probably chips easy is my guess. WB had an article about it a few months ago and I saw that it is non-toxic.

[Gold Rock]

Your salad dressing is just using the properties of acetic acid to break down and remove the oxides that form on copper based metals. Ketchup does the same thing. I don't do the polished thing either. I like the 'patina'ed' finish. It says to me "you can go find other things to do, I'm just fine here..". I don't mind PU glues. I've had good luck with them, though Thorne's right, there are much cheaper alternatives to G.G. I can't ever recall using a water based adhesive on my boat. Shellac is great for below deck use, but it lacks any appreciable UV resistance. I don't think it would be good for exterior use.

[Bob Cleek]

I'm a little confused at this point. Are we talking about shellacing the bronze or the mahogany? Anyhow, for what it's worth:

1. Before considering any adhesive, consider to what use you are putting it. Most importantly, will the joint be subject to shrinking and swelling cycles and does the grain in one piece run parallel or perpendicular to the other. I'm not sure what "reinforcing" you expect any glue to provide your hatch. I can say that there isn't a glue I know of that will well withstand the forces generated by moisture and drying in the marine environment if those forces are opposing. Laminating wood that will shrink and swell in the same direction is another matter. Take a look at the hatch construction details in a good construction text, such as Chapelle's "Boatbuilding." As I recall he explains there, there are sound reasons for the type of joints depicted. You want the parts to hold each other together, not push and pull each other apart. Proper joinery does this. Glue does not.

2. Bright finished mahogany is a beautiful INTERIOR furniture material, but, IMHO, about the worst boatbuilding material to try to keep finished bright. It's wonderful for all sorts of boatbuilding applications, particularly interior joinery and, of course, planking, if painted. The problem with mahogany is that it weathers poorly and even with a good clear finish will bleach or, more accurately, fade out over time, going from "mahogany" color to a light straw. It is difficult to bleach and staining just makes the problems darker! While you can let a varnished teak job go south, strip and bleach it and lay down another coating with no ill effect whatsoever, the stains in the mahogany will be impossible to remove short of sanding down to new wood. No matter how much you think otherwise, no bright finish will last forever, nor even as long as you thought it might.

Your best bet with mahogany, which does look beautiful when newly varnished, is to seal it with CPES and lay on at least eight to ten coats of a quality spar varnish. Then, and this is very important, KEEP IT COVERED! The cover will extend the life of the varnish exponentially. That, and a routine of adding a coat every so often, will keep it looking as good as anyone can expect. I know that there are many who have succumbed to the seductive lure of "easier" or "longer lasting" clear coatings, such as Cetol (crap) and even the two part urethanes (better, but far harder to remove) which are touted as "no maintenance." The manufacturers of these concoctions depend on each season's crop of new boat owners for their existence. Those of us who have been at it for a long, long, time have seen "new and improved" products come out continually. We stand back and let the newbies spend the big bucks on them and then wait and see. So far, nobody's come up with a better solution to brightwork than decent quality spar varnish properly sealed, applied and maintained. If you don't believe me, just ask yourself why those "Rolls Royce" European yacht yards like Riva are still varnishing their yachts instead of soaking them in Cetol or urethane.

3. You are wise to let your bronze weather. It will not turn "green," but rather a dark chocolate brown. If "bronze" turns green, it's brass. Just leave it alone. "Salad dressings" are nothing other than mild acids, which will remove the patina. Unlike the corrosion of marine aluminum alloys or Corten steel, the patina doesn't "protect" the bronze, but then, unlike steel and aluminum, bronze doesn't need protecting. If for some reason you must, a mild solution of oxalic acid (wood bleach) will clean it up nicely and by judicious application, you can only remove what crud you have to. Polishing bronze is a fool's errand. It looks much more shipshape left to its own devices. Where it is subjected to wear, such as where a line chafes on a cleat, the polished area looks quite proper. Brass is another thing entirely, as many don't understand. You DO polish brass, which is probably why there is so little of it aboard a well found vessel. We're talking bells, lamps, clock and barometer cases and the like. If you feel the need to polish something, polish the brass, not the bronze.

Perhaps the greatest bane of sane minds is polishing and clear coating any metal on a boat. The damn manufacturers have for some time lacquered brass lamps, barometers and such so it looks good on the shelf at WasteMarine. It will only last for a few years, at which point the "pox" sets in, with pinpoint scratches and deterioration allowing tarnishing that looks like speckled crap. There is no way to polish these out, since it is all covered with lacquer. Of course, aiming for the longest lasting finish, God only knows what they use, but it is impossible to strip off, short of sanding and then buffing the shine back on the bare metal. I've had to do it to my lamps and instruments and if I ever sell my boat they're staying with me because I sure don't want to have to do that job again! Now that they are bare, though, it is an easy and satisfying thing to polish them up. I strongly recommend Nev-R-Dull wadding, which is what the US Navy uses, and which I've found works better than anything else I've ever tried.

Good luck! And post a picture!

[Jodi Cooper]

Hi Goldrock,
Thanks for all your input. I would never varnish metal, no worries there. I have several L & L Pardey books and videos and I know they are varnishing "fools" and live by the good old fashioned standards and your right about the spar varnish. Can you tell me what CPES is? Also, as far as varnish is concerned, is Cetol a good one? As for the hatch, it came off a very old derilict Crocker that we've been salvaging parts from. It was in the weather for years and had moss growing on it! I have brought it back and it looks nice already. The seams are coming apart in places though and I need to re-glue them. The brinze on it was quite bad, rough with residue. I used the salt, vinager, flour mixture and it worked really well. I then used Brasso to buff it up. I don't want it shiny just smooth and clean. I want it to weather naturally on our boat. We are restoring a 1958 Herreshoff double ended ketch named Dulcinea (also her model). I will post pictures of the hatch in all it's stages and also of Dulcinea. Jodi

[Bob Cleek]

Dulcinea is a great design! I guess she's the original. Certainly worth restoring.

CPES is short for "Smith's Clear Penetrating Epoxy SEALER." This is a specially formulated SEALER for use under paint, among other things. It is not just "thinned epoxy." It contains solvents that penetrate the bare wood. It prevents moisture (to some extent, not completely) from getting under the varnish, which is the prime cause of varnish lifting. Use the search thingy and you'll read all about it.

[Gold Rock]

Yup, CPES is an epoxy derivative. I've used it to no greater or lesser effect than regular unthickened epoxy resin. I don't under coat bare wood with epoxies. If you're going to put a finish on wood, pick your poison and follow the manufacturers instructions. And don't cut corners. Paints require less maintenance than clear finishes. I don't like Cetol. I've used lot's of it on other folks boats at their request. It requires recoating more often than other varnish types, that for instance I use on my boat, and it quickly develops a certain opacity of, what I find to be, an unappealing orangish tint. I have acres (what seem like way too many acres) of exterior varnished mahogany on my boat and as I maintain them adequately, they look as good today as they did almost thirty years ago. In contrast to Bob's experience, I've never seen any appreciable bleaching of the wood from UV exposure. I live in the Pacific northwest, however, and UV exposure is not a significant problem here. If you move to Ft. Lauderdale you may have different concerns...
The oxides that form on metal surfaces have a certain protective character. Elemental metals such as copper, iron, or aluminum are extremely reactive. Particularly with oxygen. Oxygen is present in the atmosphere as well as water. Either one hard to avoid in the marine environment. The oxides of the afore mentioned metals, however, are extremely stable. Most bronzes commonly used in marine apps. tend to stabalize once an initial layer of oxidation has formed, unlike iron or aluminum. If cleaned as part of regular general vessel maintenance, they're essentially inert. Brasses, which have a very high zinc content (yep, just like the sacraficial objects you affix to your underwater surfaces), are slightly less stable above the waterline, and have no place below it.
A well made, traditionally joined hatch doesn't require glue at all. If your joints are failing, it's doubtless a result of the failure of the finish which allowed moisture in and, as Bob points out, allows an excess of shrink/swell in the wood. Wood finishes are for more than looks. It's possible that your hatch can be disassembled, the faying surfaces of the joints touched up, and the whole reassembled/refastened/refinished and put back into service without glue at all. If the hatch was originally made with glue joints then you're back to glue choices. Personally, I like thickened epoxy as an exterior adhesive for apps. like this.

[gimmellsmom]

HAlso, as far as varnish is concerned, is Cetol a good one?
Jodi

I totally agree with Bob... Cetol is crap - we have it all over our H28 and people who know brightwork come by and say "oh, you used Cetol..." Other's totally disagree with this opinion and love it.

IF we have time this spring I think I'll strip the brightwork down, apply CPES and try out Epiphones (sp?) The boat we sit across from has all its mahogany brighwork done in that and she sure is pretty... but his kids are grown and he's got more free time than I do! :p

I wonder if a 7 year old is capable of sanding...! Nothing wrong with a little slave/child labour is there?

Good luck - let me know how your hatch works out, thats on our to do list too!

[Vinny&Shawn]

The salad dressing...hee-hee. Here an hour. Rub and wash it off. I think I'll go with TitebondIII. It's going to be varnished over anyway. Does it dry clear? And does it adhere to mahogany? Have you ever used Shellac? It probably chips easy is my guess. WB had an article about it a few months ago and I saw that it is non-toxic.

Ok, let's see, TightBond does dry clear,make sure your glue joint is clean and clamped tightly.Try not to clean up the squish out with water right away or else it will soak into the wood making cleanup a chore let, it dry some or cure overnight. Then remove it with a carbide scraper gently.

I always used thinned shellac for a sealer coat, it gives the wood a nice golden appearance and is an excelled sealer under varnish and lacquer. I also use shellac for gluing bungs, among other things.

[Jodi Cooper]

Thank you all for the input. I think Cetol is off my list. The Mahogany is dark and I like the color and wouldn't want to change it in any way. The Epiphane always interested me though. The CPES sounds like it may be a good way to go for an undercoat too but I'll need to think that over. The wood hasn't bleached and it is a fairly old hatch so I think the color is the color. Yes, the wood was out in the weather for several years and the joints have failed that's why I will be glueing them. I'm not sure if I could go with no glue at all. It's hard to tell if what I pushed out of the joints was glue or just bits of varnish. Probably varnish. As far as the bronze goes, I'm going to let it do it's thing now that I've cleaned it up. It looks real nice now. So, gimmelsmom, you have the H28? Awesome. She's almost identicle to Dulcinea. As a matter of fact, I believe our boat has the H28 rigging. We obtained all the specs and archives from Mystic Seaport. L.F. Herreshoff was friends with the builder of our boat (Alan Viatses-of lofting fame) and L.F. went out on our boat shortly after launching in 1958. We have probably 100 pages of correspondance between L.F., Mr. Viatses and the owner, a Mr. Hitchcock that we found at Mystic. We rescued her from a boatyard that would have burned her if no-one took her! She's a labor of love! We have, as I said the specs for the hull etc... but no specs for the rigging. You wouldn't happen to have specs for the rigging of your boat would you?

[Jodi Cooper]

Vinny, I'll see you guys tomorrow....Dark & Stormy's????

[CJ]

Gimmellsmom:

It's never too early to introduce the youngsters to this sort of productive labor. My father had me laying on my back among the rocks at the marina sanding the bottom paint on his 35' Chris Craft Sea Skiff when I was about 9 while he did the relatively easier topsides. I've since hated the job of bottom sanding and this year (for the first time) am paying someone else to do it to my boat.

Ahh, but the lessons I learned at that early age... I still can't figure out why he wouldn't let me wear a dust mask... or made me use the metal-cased sander with the ground prong broken off.

Anyway, I say teach 'em early!
CJ

[gimmellsmom]

Ahh, but the lessons I learned at that early age... I still can't figure out why he wouldn't let me wear a dust mask... or made me use the metal-cased sander with the ground prong broken off.

Anyway, I say teach 'em early!
CJ

He sounds like my Opa... had no boys and no grandsons til much later - I was the only 10 year old girl around would could re-finish her own furniture and swing a hammer!

Might just have to source out some XS particulate dust filters!
:eek:

[paladin]

If your mahogany is not properly sealed and kept varnished it will turn urine yellow under extreme sunlight. The varnish should have as much ultra violet protection in it as possible, and keep it that way.....I had NO exterior varnish on my boat for that reason, although I did a walk around at least once a week with a bit of teak oil and a cloth to cover any dings...on a boat of 30 feet or less an honest hours work a week will keep most boats in yacht condition year round.....with a 44 footer I worked mine to be at least twice that.....each day, take a cuppa coffee and do a 10 minute walk around...Monday check each turnbuckle/rigging screw/fitting, Tuesday check lifeline stanchions and deck cleats....and so on.....

[Jodi Cooper]

Yeah, I probably won't go with the Waterlox. Most people I've talked to said just go with a good spar varnish and keep up with it, oh and keep it covered. That is probably where I'm going. We aren't going to have "tons" of brightwork on our boat so it won't consume my life. I actually do like working on a boat. Hell, if we didn't like it to some degree we shouldn't even own a wooden boat, right?

[Jodi Cooper]

I did a walk around at least once a week with a bit of teak oil and a cloth to cover any dings...on a boat of 30 feet or less an honest hours work a week will keep most boats in yacht condition year round.....with a 44 footer I worked mine to be at least twice that.....each day, take a cuppa coffee and do a 10 minute walk around...Monday check each turnbuckle/rigging screw/fitting, Tuesday check lifeline stanchions and deck cleats....and so on.....[/quote]

The only problem here is that we live 2 1/2 hours from where our boat will be kept. We will be weekend warriors with week long trips throw in here and there. There will be your ever popular spring and fall refits goin on. Thanks for the idea though.