Anti rot Use of Polyethylene Glycol

[Jock B]

Looking towards spring, after wooding an Atlantic white cedar planked hull, I'm contemplating applying a coat of ethylene glycol and letting it soak in and dry for a few days before applying new primer and bottom paint. The stuff really penetrates wood and is proven to be durably toxic to rot-causing fungal organisms.

Anyone have experience with painting after applying this? Is there an adhesion problem? Is there known paint incompatibility?

[The Bigfella]

I've done it and had no problems applying oil-based paints afterwards. Still fine 6 + years later.

[JimConlin]

Somebody PLEASE find the old threads on this modern miracle.
I don't want to hear about toenail fungus again.

[The Bigfella]

I resisted the urge to talk about toenail fungus.

[The Bigfella]

Dave Carnell
01-20-2006, 06:17 AM
I am the person who has most often promoted ethylene glycol antifreeze for curing fungal problems from wood rot to bed sores. I discovered the antifungal properties of ethylene glycol in connection with wood rot back around 1980. Later I translated the action to curing athletes foot and toenail fungus. I amazed my urologist by quickly curing the balanophosphitis on my penis with ethylene glycol as the alternative to his recommended circumcision in the early 1990s. In 1999, my beloved wife became bedridden and a complete invalid. After a while in bed she began to develop incipient bedsores. I spiked the ointment the caregivers were using with ethylene glycol. The sores disappeared, so I gave the caregivers a dropper bottle of ethylene glycol to use on the sores. When Eleanor died in 2002, the caregivers told me they had never seen anyone bedridden so long with such unblemished skin. Just last year, one of these ladies who still works for me had her 97-year old mother in hospice dying of cancer. When the old lady developed bed sores, Louise spiked the lotions the nurses were using with antifreeze. When the bed sores healed, the nurses and doctor were most interested in what she had done.

It is not unusual for chemicals to have a wide range of interactions. Because of strokes I have had, I regularly take a blood thinner to reduce the likelihood of clots and further strokes. The generic name of the thinner is warfarin. Warfarin was developed during WW II as a rat poison by the Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation. It kills the rats by causing internal bleeding. My dose has to be carefully regulated, of course.

Back to wood. Nontoxic propylene glycol antifreeze is useless against rot and insects because it is nontoxic.

Ethylene glycol has properties very similar to water. It is extremely hygroscopic and is powerfully absorbed by wood so that it is not easily washed out. Apparently, only a low concentration is required to kill rot based on my observations of the sustained resistance of glycol-treated wood to rot in bilges regularly submerged.

Antifreeze will very quickly penetrate frozen wood. The best windshield deicer I know is about a 10% solution of ethylene glycol antifreeze in water. Applied to frozen wood, it will melt the ice, promptly penetrate the wood, and kill any rot organisms or boring insects.

There is a product called Boracar® for treating wood to prevent rot and insect attack. It is borates dissolved in ethylene glycol. It is getting a lot of its effectiveness from the ethylene glycol, though this cannot be claimed, as no one has EPA-registered EG as a fungicide and insecticide. On the other hand, research by Gougeon has shown that borate-treated wood gives weak joints with epoxy.

Ethylene glycol penetrates dry or wet wood as no other wood treatment does.



http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-6571.html

[The Bigfella]

http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/Workshop/rotstopper/rotcure.html

[pcford]

I resisted the urge to talk about toenail fungus.

You forgot about antifreeze being a cure for penile sores.

[chainyank]

Isn't Atlantic White Ceder pretty rot resistant in and of itself? Or do you need more!!!

[Mrleft8]

Go ahead. Use anti-freeze. It's not gonna help anything. It'll probably kill your cat, and all the frogs in your yard, and yanno what? It's just plain stupid.

[BarnacleGrim]

I'd love to see a reliable study on how effective ethylene glycol really is at preventing rot in wooden boats.

[George Ray]

Tom Colvin NA who designed our boat used this on much of his wood work prior to painting. I got this a side comments in his emails where he was answering questions on other topics. I seem to remember that end grain of plywood was a particular target.

[RodB]

Isn't Dave Carnell a retired chemist?



He sure sold and recommended one of the best circular saw/table saw blades that is available... Matsuhita...

http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/davecarnell/rot.html

RodB

[kulas44]

Several years back I used a LOT of this stuff on my sportfishing boat, a 41 footer, glass hull wood cabin. It was on the hard and the big saloon windows condensated a lot, and it had a few leaks to boot. I hosed EVERYTHING with pg every month for several years, both in and out of the water. It still rotted. I can't get Cuprinol here anymore, much less the better Jasco terminate (the green stuff) that was good poison, drank in moderation of course.

[sdowney717]

it is eg not pg he says to use.
polyethylene glycol does not kill anything, ethylene glycol does.
eg is poisonous to life so it likely kills fungus.

[Bob Cleek]

"I amazed my urologist by quickly curing the balanophosphitis on my penis with ethylene glycol as the alternative to his recommended circumcision in the early 1990s."

I suppose you can't blame him for trying EVERYTHING before following his doctor's advice! Under the circumstances, though, I can't consider it anything more than the act of a desparate man. I'd say the same about soaking all the wood in your boat with antifreeze.

[redbopeep]

Ethylene Glycol is nasty stuff that kills at all levels of the food chain--no reason to believe that it is not effective in killing fungus residing on the people or in the boat.

We've used it extensively on the interior of the planking, deadwood, oak keel, etc of our boat as we re-planked and had her on the hard. The only problem that I can see is that it washes out of the wood with water so I would expect that once she's relaunched it won't really do us much good. But, it was like throwing salt over my shoulder--made me feel better when the deck was opened up and fresh water was making it into the bilge. I'd throw a little antifreeze in there with the water and feel somehow "safer" :p

The use of diethylene glycol as a carrier for a drug during the 1930's ended up in numerous deaths and a new Act of Congress--the 1938 Federal Food Drugs and Cosmetics Act to require drug testing. :rolleyes:

Regarding fungus--hubby has had a small spot of some fungus on his chest (same spot) off and on for 10 years. No meds can get rid of it. Daily use with antifreeze for about a month (18 months ago) and guess what--it was "cured" and hasn't come back. So, you may not believe, but I do ;)

[RodB]

Go ahead. Use anti-freeze. It's not gonna help anything. It'll probably kill your cat, and all the frogs in your yard, and yanno what? It's just plain stupid.

Why is it so hard to believe the effects of EG... and why would Dave Carnell lie about results he has witnessed over many years?

I too wish there was an indepth study of the effectiveness of EG in killing rot causing organisms...

I had some dealings with him on selecting an "accurate Egret type of Sharpie" and he sent me some very interesting material on the research he had done on this type of design... to get as close as possible to the original... it was very impressive... from what I understand...he also had a lot to do with the Simmons Sea Skiff designs being in the museum in NC...

Overall, a pretty sharp old guy...

RodB

[paladin]

There are two types of ethylene glycol...Inhibited and uninhibited....ya wanna use the uninhibited stuff.....I used to use the stuff 20 gallons at a time 'cause some friggin idjit used the inhibited type in my coolant lines and a thousand 1968 dollars later I finally had the problem solved......

[Tom Lathrop]

Dave is very long in the tooth now but was a chemist by trade. He was singlehandedly responsible for the resurection of the Simmons Skiff and making it possible for so many to have plans for it.

We have had different opinions in some things but he is no dummy as some here seem inclined to declare. If he has made some objective test on any particular subject, I tend to believe his results if not all the conclusions. Of course EG is toxic. So is Cuprinol, salt treated lumber and bottom paint. So are many of the medications my doctor prescribes for me.

[Dave Carnell]

I was a chemical engineer by profession. Had a hard time convincing even my wife of the difference between that and chemist. Worked for DuPont for 40 years. Their slogan used to be "Better things for Better Living Through Chemistry". These days they call themselves "The Science Company". From their founding in 1802 till now it was the engineering that changed scientific discoveries to commercial products. When I went to work for them in 1942 they and Union Carbide were the only manufacturers of ethylene glycol antifreeze. Ours was Zerex®; theirs, Prestone®. The development of the petrochemical industry changed the whole antifreeze industry. Today no manufacturer packages his product. There are packaging operations that convert tank cars of antifreeze grade ethylene glycol to packaged antifreeze. We have one here in Wilmington, NC. They blow-mold the polyethylene jugs anf fill them with glycol to which the brand's pixie dust (dye and corrosion inhibitors) has been added. I discovered the anti-rot properties accidentally. I was experimenting with antifreeze as something to dimensionally stabilize wood. I had a couple of cross-section slabs of a large oak tree. One I had treated with antifreeze and the other was an untrated control. The control fell completely to pieces after drying a short time. Also it was covered with a vigorous white fungal growth. The treated sample did not crack nor did it have any fungal growth. That was the start of it all. A frequent criticism of the idea is that water will leach it out. That is not so because in addition to being soluble in water it is also very strongly absorbed by cellulose and is not extracted by exposure to water. My pharmaceutical uses have been ridiculed, but the most important of those is its ability to cure and prevent bed sores. My late wife was completely bedridden for three years before her death. I had the care givers use ethylene glycol on any suspicious spot or break in the skin. At her death the care givers said they had never seen such unblemished skin on a patient bedridden so long. Others have confirmed this efficacy. Back to wood, end grain is particularly susceptible to rot and should get extra attention.

[sdowney717]

what happens to EG when it dries up?
what is the residue?
does EG evaporate?

[BarnacleGrim]

I've been advised to give the interior of my hull a liberal coat of raw linseed oil before launch. Perhaps I should consider ethylene glycol as well. Question is, what do I paint on first, and should I wait between coats?

I added some glycol anywhere moisture might gather and freeze after haul out, but I didn't consider any anti-rot properties.

[skylark]

Am I right in saying that any antifreeze with the main ingrediant ethylene glycol is is what should be used. I am building a house and have 16 pairs of 100 plus year old french doors with matching shutters that are somewhat exposed. This might be a good fist application on them. The doors are in good shape but the shutters do have some rot. Any thoughts?

[Dave Carnell]

Antifreeze grade glycol is 90% ethylene Glycol and10% diethylene glycol, an unavoidable byproduct of the manufacturing process and just as toxic to rot organisms. Any antifreeze with EG as the principal ingredient will work. Coolant mixtures have been diluted with 50% water so you get more bang for the buck with undiluted antifreeze. At room temperature glycol doesn't evaporate, but absorbs water from the atmosphere. Its uses have including removing moisture from air in A/C systems and drying natural gas.

[Tom Lathrop]

Dave,

Sorry I unintentionally missed on your trade. As another old engineer, I well understand the difference between science and engineering. Nobel would roll in his grave if he knew that engineers were excluded from receiving his prize since they were the main group he intended rewarding with his will in the first place.

I was working at the Cape and in the Bahamas in the early days of the rocket program. When there was a successful launch, it was reported as a "scientific achievement". Flops were reported as 'engineering failures". That mindset still carries on today.

[RodB]

Dave, thanks again for your input... I want to thank you for the great Matsu****a saw blades, they are top quality in performance.

Are there any sources of plain ethylene glycol ??? Seems like I have seen some comments in the past concerning the availability of EG...???

Just wanted to be sure...

Thanks

RodB

[BarnacleGrim]

The hygroscopic qualities of EG don't sound very promising. But perhaps that means the wood will hold a much more stable moisture content, while rot is still inhibited.