My bronze winches

[BarnacleGrim]

I was inspired by P. L. Lenihan's winter pictures of his bowshed to go check on my Nina, and also bring home the winches for a much needed overhaul. Of course, I don't have a nice bowshed, so I had to stand on a ladder with my head under the tarpaulin like a common winch thief :D

Anyway, here they are:

http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/gcopc/IMG_2462.jpg

I'm guessing they have been in a state of disrepair for quite some time. The previous owner said he didn't have any winch handles (and I don't think you can buy this kind of winch handle here, I might have to order from Toplicht). The previous owner said he was perfectly satisfied with handling the sails without the help of winches.

I still want my winches to look nice and be operational, though. If not for pulling in the sheets, then as an excuse to sing In South Australia I Was Born at the top of my lungs as I hoist the mains'l. ;)

It looks like they were chrome plated at one point, which is a terrible thing to do with a bronze winch. I suspect it was done as a part of some chrome craze and fear of looking old-fashioned that led to the bad taste people have in boats here. They are very hard to turn around and the ratcheting is erratic. I suspect they are full of salt and dirt. Any advise on how to make them operational and good looking again?

[Dan McCosh]

Cleaning, greasing, and replacing the pawl springs should do it. The pawls are the only pieces prone to wear--and at worse they could probably be rebuilt with some brazing, if necessary.

[floatingkiwi]

Yeah, just take them apart mate. It's real simple.

[pcford]

It looks like they were chrome plated at one point, which is a terrible thing to do with a bronze winch. I suspect it was done as a part of some chrome craze and fear of looking old-fashioned that led to the bad taste people have in boats here. They are very hard to turn around and the ratcheting is erratic. I suspect they are full of salt and dirt. Any advise on how to make them operational and good looking again?

Depending on the year of the boat, chrome may be totally appropriate.

[Jay Greer]

Chrome can be stripped using reverese electrolysis. Best done at a plating shop.
Jay

[hm0316]

It is not at all uncommon for bronze winches to be chrome plated. In fact, Harken and Lewmar and other modern manufacturers have lines of chrome plated bronze winches. Most winch manufacturers will sell you their chrome plated bronze winches without the chrome in natural bronze. The problem is that some chrome plated bronze winches use an alloy that is comparatively high in iron; this improves certain properties in aluminum bronze. It can, however, result in a dirty brown rusty looking spotting in the patina. This is not necessarily a problem in you keep them polished, but most people would prefer not to have to heavily polish their bronze winches. Winches such as Meissner, Wilmex and LVJ are manufactured to be natural bronze and do not have the same spotting problem.

You can have your winches either rechromed or dechromed fairly easily. Look for an automotive chrome shop on the internet. I can't tell from the pictures whether yours were originally chromed or not, but they could be fairly old and still have been originally chromed. If you want to try them with a natural patina, you could have them dechromed and see how they weather. If you don't like the maintainance you could have them chromed. All that would cost money, of course.

hm0316

[Torna]

I have similar winches on Torna - though blessedly without the chrome. As mentioned above, they're easy to take apart; just have at it.

On mine the pawls are chunks of stainless rod that slide up & down in bores in the drum - and engage a ramp-toothed ring on the bottom plate. In addition to gravity, there are light springs at the top of the bores to push the pawls down.

Mine had two issues:

The grease inside had started to solidify so the pawls didn't slide freely - resulting in skipped clicks when hauling in. That was easily remedied with a good cleaning and re-greasing.
The bottom of the pawls had developed a tiny mushroom / burr from eternally banging down on the ramp. If the pawl managed to get "too high" into the bore above the burr would jam it into the bore. This resulted in the winch free wheeling - no clicks at all - and that gets exciting when coming about in a good breeze. The solution here was to delicately file the burr off the corner of the pawl - and then verify that it slide freely and without binding all the way into the bore.


A nice cleaning, checking for (and filing) the burr, and a nice re-greasing, and those winches will be ready to go for another 50 years.

Not sure about in Sweden, but handles for these appear on Ebay in USA regularly.

-leif

[hm0316]

BarnacleGrim, I just noticed you are located in Sweden and I don't know how common automotive chrome shops are in your neighborhood; there are invironmental issues. A silver plating shop (old silverware restoration) could possibly do the same thing, although at a higher price.

hm0316

[BarnacleGrim]

Depending on the year of the boat, chrome may be totally appropriate.
I don't know, but I assume chrome plating was not the norm during the second world war, when the Fokboat was conceived. And I think the darker bronze go much better with the varnished pine coamings. A darker coloured wood might look better with chrome.

Since the chrome is already flaking off I was hoping to be able to use a wire brush wheel to clean it up. I've also read that sandblasting is another alternative to chemical stripping, but then I'd have to buy or borrow a compressor.

[chainyank]

Or you could just give them to me:D, all that polishing is going to be hard work. But seriously, I know a bronze guy here in stockholm, I will ask him about where to go for de-chroming when I see him this weekend. Where are you in Sweden?

[BarnacleGrim]

I'm on the west coast, near Gothenburg. I already looked up some chrome shops on Eniro, but I haven't made a call. I'm assuming it's expensive, so I tend to want to do it myself. Besides, polishing bronze is a nice thing to do in front of the fireplace, waiting for spring.

I have a can of lithium grease here, is that good for the winch? Or maybe Teflon lube is more suitable?

[hm0316]

Mechanical removal with a wire brush might work but you would have to polish them to remove the brush scrathes. D
Electrical dechroming is usually not too expensive, at least in the US. Either way, good luck. I agree natural bronze is much nicer than chrome.

hm0316

[seo]

If these have the cylindrical plunger pawls described above, lubrication is critical. Gummy grease will cause the pawls to hang up. Old Merriman winchs had this system, and I've had several over the years. Most of them had a little oil hole on the top, and I found that a daily drop of Marvel Mystery Oil, and a monthly disassembly and cleaning, were a good regimen. It's also possible that synthetic automatic transmission fluid would work well. If you use to much it runs out the bottom and stains the deck.
For cleaning the bore that the pawl rides in, I use a rifle bore brush of appropriate caliber. I think mine are .30 caliber, or 7.62mm. These usually have two pawl cylinders in each bore, with a spring between them. The upper pawls engage ratchets on the underside of the top cover, while the bottom pawls engage on ratchets on top of the base. That's how Merrimans are, anyway. If the spring breaks or gets fatigued, it needs to be replaced with a non-corroding spring of the right length and diameter. They're hard to find, so if you find them, buy extras.
The pawls should have a very small-radius curve where the sides turn into the bottom. If the ratchet (the "teeth" cast into the base) have gotten rounded over, I think it would be possible to reshape them with a drill press and a specially ground drill IF you're good at that sort of stuff. A machine shop would use an end mill and be done pretty quickly. I suppose a dremel tool could be used, once again, if you're good at it.
As far as pawl and ratchet profile, it would be good to find one that hasn't been used much, and trace its profile.
Finally, get used to the sound that the winch makes when BOTH pawls are working correctly. And when the frequency of pawl clicks drops by half, IMMEDIATELY stop using it until you've cleaned/lubed/repaired the winch. A spin back is no joke, and these winches can fling the handle out with truly frightening force if the silly little handle clip doesn't hold. Think about that before having someone make you a handle without a retainer clip...

[Dan McCosh]

If these indeed are similar to the Merriman winches, we spent years getting rid of them, as they never worked properly. I was thinking of a lever-type pawl as a ratchet.

[seo]

I still have three on my boat. Two are halyard winches, the last is a baby that serves as a snubbing winch on the main sheet. I really dislike them for use on jib sheets or spinnaker halyards, which are places that if the pawls hang up the line will run hard and fast for quite a distance, allowing the winch handle to reach warp speed.
I personally think they're okay as sheet winches for boats of average type under maybe 28 feet long, with owners who'd do the maintenance, but I wouldn't argue with anyone who felt they were a menace.

[PeterSibley]

I'm on the west coast, near Gothenburg. I already looked up some chrome shops on Eniro, but I haven't made a call. I'm assuming it's expensive, so I tend to want to do it myself. Besides, polishing bronze is a nice thing to do in front of the fireplace, waiting for spring.

I have a can of lithium grease here, is that good for the winch? Or maybe Teflon lube is more suitable?

I rang my local chrome plating shop to ask if he could strip the chrome from this roller reefing assembly ,

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL282/9443996/17245530/354751480.jpg

as you can see ,it's a lot larger than your winches ! He said he would do it for a carton of beer .:D

[P.L.Lenihan]

Ah yes, the old standing-on-a-ladder-under-a-tarpaulin-winch-thief approach. Know it well! Those are fine looking winches and will certainly look just grand once all cleaned up and returned to their former glorious naural state.I agree too that you really should attempt getting handles for them despite the diminutive size of those lovely winches.Hope you find some who trades in beer too.That would be sweet!


Cheers!


Peter, reformed and retired winch thief,copper thief, lead thief,bronze thief.....recalling his days at the scrap yards cheating their scales......I all growed up now:)

[andrewe]

My local chrome shop used felt wheels for buffing off chrome. They were rolled in adhesive then grit. Fairly fine for your case. Bench grinder about 2 HP.Came off fast. They used to do a lot for classic car guys. For your little winches, maybe a felt or fabric wheel in a drill with something like valve grinding paste.
Andrew

[seo]

I've been told that most chrome over bronze jobs are done with an intermediate layer of nickel. Dunno why.

[RFNK]

BG
How wonderful to know that Australian sea shanties are sung up there in Sweden! I reckon your winches look great as they are. If you start actually using them, the chrome remains will wear off. Our FB was built in the 60s and everything's chrome and it looks fine but if these winches suit your boat, why not just leave them as they are? Just clean up the insides and get them working properly. The handles you need are just flat bar aren't they? Very easy to put a handle on a flat bar of bronze or stainless steel. Where will you use them - for halyards or for the jib? The standard FB winches for sheeting the jib have the handle that's below the winch. I think these are great as the handle is always ready, so I wouldn't replace them, but others don't like them for some reason. Rick

[glennmajestic]

I've been told that most chrome over bronze jobs are done with an intermediate layer of nickel. Dunno why.
The nickel made the chrome stick better,sometimes they would also flash it with copper.There is a company called caswell in the states that sells doit yourself chrome kits that might have the way to dechrome also -pretty inexspensive.

[seo]

I remember a highschool science teacher who had what I remember as a pretty standard aquarium, a 12V battery, and a piece of chrome, with which he demonstrated the concept of anode and cathode. I wish that I had paid more attention at the time.
SEO

[Gezzunder]

I've removed chrome using a very dilute hydrochloric acid (pool acid mixed into water) and 12v from an old computer power supply attached to the work piece - negative wire to a piece of copper placed in the solution. It took about 15 minutes to remove the chrome and another 20 to buff the winches .

Take care with disposal of the acid bath when finished, it contains hexavalent chromium which is nasty stuff. Wear gloves and work in a well ventilated area, the process gives off a fair bit of gas as well. Mix acid into water... not water into acid, it will splash and burn you.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii297/darcydugganx/CIMG1280.jpg

[seo]

Did the chrome plate onto the copper? Or go into solution in the bath, or what?

[Gezzunder]

Did the chrome plate onto the copper? Or go into solution in the bath, or what?

Some into solution, that's the bad hexavalent chromium which made Erin Brokovitch famous, some onto the copper.

Dispose of it carefully... place into sealed container and leave with a chroming shop or toxic waste company.

[chainyank]

Well I guess my guy in stockholm is a bit far off... Let me know if you want his info anyway... As for me I'll be driving half way to g-town tomorrow to buy oak for my darling.
As for the DIY on the winches, be sure to share your process!

[JimConlin]

I've been told that most chrome over bronze jobs are done with an intermediate layer of nickel. Dunno why.
My chrome guy told me first copper, then nickel, then chrome.

[seo]

Copper over bronze?
I've always liked the look of nickel plated stuff, a softer gleam, as opposed to the shine of chrome. There are antique/vintage nickel-plated firearms around, but I've never seen nickel plated deck hardware. I wonder if it's a corrosion or hardness thing, or just style...

[seo]

This is for sale on Ebay right now: It's a portable electroplater.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p284.m183&_trkparms=algo%3DCRX%26its%3DS%252BI%26itu%3DUCI%2 52BSI%26otn%3D4&item=290297280586&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget&itemcount=4&sspagename=MERC_VIC_RCRX_Pr4_PcY_BID_IT&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&refitem=310123312573&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&viewitem=