Sunhaven

[Captain Blight]

I tried this out over at Boatdesign forums, and the answers stayed away in droves. Maybe you lot will be a little more forthcoming, or at least let me know if I'm going to shoot my eye out or something.

I am, at least theoretically, at least halfway, interested in building a boat. Sun Dance, by Weston Farmer, is a beauty. Haven, by Atkin and Co, has a look I like very much. What I want is probably an entirely different boat, but the same thing: What I want is something *just halfway* between
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/wf/sundance/profile.gif
SUNDANCE

at 17'3" by just 6' of beam, and drawing (motor down) about 1'3" at a guess; designed to run nicely with 25 Hp at 20-25 MPH.

and
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Cruisers/images/Haven-1.gif

HAVEN, by Atkin & CO.

Runs to 29'9", 8' even across the wide spot, designed draft of 1'10". Mr Atkin the Elder claimed that 175 h.p. at 3600 r.p.m. from a 372 cubic inches Graymarine--and would that have been a Straight 8, I wonder? --should give a top end of 35 miles an hour, perhaps a little better.

He called HAVEN a "rough-water rescue boat" and the huskiness with which it was designed makes me think he fully pictured a boatload of men with rifles returning fire at speed in 4-foot seas. Certainly it looks like a flush-decker half-scale PT boat.

Underwater, the boats are similar in their forward sections, though the Farmer boat has a quite a bit flatter run in its planing sections:

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/wf/sundance/bodyplan-200.gif
SUNDANCE here , very graceful;


and
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Cruisers/images/Haven-2.gif
HAVEN.




What would you call something in between those two beauties?

SUNHAVEN.



So I guess I'm looking for a raised-decker with these general proportions--and the boats are somewhat similar in terms of sheer, length of foredeck, size of cockpit, height of freeboard-- running twenty-three by seven foot, maybe as narrow as six and a half feet. Keep the tumblehome. Hell, give it even a little more, like on a Lyman Islander. If nothing else it does reduce the size of your transom, saves a little weight, and always looks pretty. Windshield-on-a-box like SUNDANCE has isn't terrible but there's probably a better-looking way to go about it.

It'd be nice to keep the build options open-- ply on frame has its limits, but they've been stretched considerably in the 65 years since HAVEN was first drawn. Cold-moulding, strip-plank composite, batten-seam all could probably work just fine, and if you had a serious boner for lapstrake, I imagine it wouldn't be that hard to do either.

There've been a lot of boats built in this size range, coming in right around a ton or so. Lots of them get a lot heavier pretty quickly. And any idiot can stuff a hull full of horsepower and make it go fast, but to be able to move 25 mph on 25 HP, like SUNDANCE? That's pretty damn cool. That also works out to something like 12 MPG from a Honda OB, which is nothing to sneeze at. Power SUNHAVEN with like twin 50-hp engines--inboard Diesels for the oh-so-groovy factor, and I bet a person could get within striking distance of that figure if one kept the heaviness out.


Thoughts, questions, concerns,complaints? Whatchoo thinkin?

[Spokaloo]

You got plenty of answers over at BD.net, just not ones that you wanted.

Everyone explained it very succinctly. You are looking at two very, very different boats. Yes, the section plan MAY look similar, but there is far more warp in Sundance, and at a different ratio than the other.

In order to find something between the two, you need to have a completely different boat designed.

My advice?

Take each set of lines to a qualified designer, pay him his wage to design what you want, and build it. Its only going to cost you 1-5% of the total cost of the boat, and you get EXACTLY what you want.

E

[StevenBauer]

Where are the masts? The sails? You're not going to build a stinkpot, are you? ;)



Steven

[Captain Blight]

You got plenty of answers over at BD.net, just not ones that you wanted.well. Tom Lathrop was kind of a jerk about it, I was pretty disappointed. It wouldn't have taken much for him to say something like


My advice?

Take each set of lines to a qualified designer, pay him his wage to design what you want, and build it. Its only going to cost you 1-5% of the total cost of the boat, and you get EXACTLY what you want.

Which was what I was thinking, but was hoping to have it verified by someone more in the know than myself. I know you and I have similar tastes in boats and that you were casting about for something similar, recently; I guess you didn't find much either, huh?

Anyhow. Thanks.

[Captain Blight]

Where are the masts? The sails? You're not going to build a stinkpot, are you? ;)



StevenI will have a couple traction kites and perhaps provision for a leeboard for emergencies and times when I don't want to listen to an engine.

Masts? Why put a tree in the middle of the boat when traction kites work so much better? :p

[David G]

My advice? If you like Sundance, buy the one available for $8,000. Second listing under "For Sale."

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/classified.htm

[rbgarr]

You're kind of all over the map aren't you? (see http://tinyurl.com/ae8mht ) First Seahawk and Blackbird, then Whio, now these.

You need a designer, not more plans. ;)

[Paul Pless]

You need a designer, not more plans. ;)Hey (he says in mock indignation) what's wrong with collecting plans?:o

[Captain Blight]

You're kind of all over the map aren't you? (see http://tinyurl.com/ae8mht ) First Seahawk and Blackbird, then Whio, now these.

You need a designer, not more plans. ;)I WANT THEM ALL!! goshdarnit.

[Spokaloo]

CB has run the gamut through a plethora of threads. I think the Tolman guys say it pretty succinctly:

Get some wood cut already!

My issue is unresolved, but continues on paper. A designer has entered the fray, and a tentative date to start is a year away.

As for your plan, I think it best to scratch EVERYTHING. Start anew with your needs first, then your wants, indexed out including where and when you will use the boat. From there you can get much more help locating the right plan, or at least a group from which to hand off to a designer and iron out the details. Its horrible (believe me I get sucked in as bad as anyone) to start with boat lust and manipulate it into doing what you want over a single plan instead of knowing your needs and letting a plan meet them.

E

[Tom Lathrop]

well. Tom Lathrop was kind of a jerk about it, I was pretty disappointed. It wouldn't have taken much for him to say something like
Anyhow. Thanks.

You want to explain that a bit Blight?

I have no idea what you are talking about or what you are fishing for. This is a good example of the reason I seldom post here.

[Spokaloo]

You can hold him personally if you want Tom, because so few people who design actually post on here, and your posting is valuable.

E

[rufustr]

This design?

http://www.cmdboats.com/images/ragtime1.jpg

http://www.cmdboats.com/ragtime.htm?cart_id=38bdcf7836bfc1e843da06d608ae11 77

[Captain Blight]

You want to explain that a bit Blight?

I have no idea what you are talking about or what you are fishing for. This is a good example of the reason I seldom post here.
Sure. You basically glossed over a pretty well-put together post with the sentence:

These boats that eponodyne shows have very little in common other than being boats.

Now, I realize you probably were more interested in helping the OP than helping me; but it was pretty apparent to me, at least, that (a) this is a question that you yourself addressed when you created Liz: Sun Dance is great but she's a little small; (b) that at least two people were interested in a larger Sun Dance right then right there; and (c) one of them had just put forth fairly detailed parameters as far as the aesthetics and performance. It would have taken about a minute and a half of your time to jot down a couple sentences.

But I'm sure you're a busy man.

[erster]

Tom I don't think that you are off base with your newly aquired view . ;)

[Hwyl]

They are different boats though, are you looking for a low power cruiser or something that will semi plane.

The only compromise I've seen is when you crawl on the foredeck of a laser and use the rounded forward section to float, bringing the flatish back out of the water, it really lowers their skin friction, then when it blows you can hike in the back and fly. I don't know how you'd translate that to a motor boat, but I've thought about it a lot. I'd have a bass boat style electric motor up font and a outboard out back and a similar shape to a laser. Would not work on a big old heavy cabin boat though.

I'm not enamoured of either of them by the way.

[Tom Lathrop]

Sure. You basically glossed over a pretty well-put together post with the sentence:


Now, I realize you probably were more interested in helping the OP than helping me; but it was pretty apparent to me, at least, that (a) this is a question that you yourself addressed when you created Liz: Sun Dance is great but she's a little small; (b) that at least two people were interested in a larger Sun Dance right then right there; and (c) one of them had just put forth fairly detailed parameters as far as the aesthetics and performance. It would have taken about a minute and a half of your time to jot down a couple sentences.

But I'm sure you're a busy man.

Well Blight, I guess you thought that I made a transgression that warranted your calling me a jerk. And you are certainly correct that those remarks were not addressed to you. I am always careful not to insult anyone on this or any other forum. Unfortunately one never knows how some presumably innocent remark will be interpreted. My remarks were actually intended to induce teh original poster to ask questions which might reveal what he really wanted. That is often more difficult than actually finding an appropriate answer.

[JimD]

Tom, I was poking around your website yesterday and noticed a page for Bluejacket 20 under construction. Do you expect to have a line drawing or two for the 20 soon?

[Captain Blight]

Well Blight, I guess you thought that I made a transgression that warranted your calling me a jerk. And you are certainly correct that those remarks were not addressed to you. I am always careful not to insult anyone on this or any other forum. Unfortunately one never knows how some presumably innocent remark will be interpreted. My remarks were actually intended to induce teh original poster to ask questions which might reveal what he really wanted. That is often more difficult than actually finding an appropriate answer.

Yeah.

Not for nothin', I do want to say that after I posted that, I actually a couple times thought about going back and editing that sentence to not name you and use the word dismissive or something. I didn't act on that with any sense of haste, and I wish I had. I'm sorry.

[paladin]

Capt. Blight....why dontcha take a look at the drawings of Blackhawk....they were done at 33 feet, but the intended power was 60 hp.....by narrowing the boat at her chines and shortening to 30 feet you could get the speed that you were looking for. I started at 8 ft. beam, finished the drawings at 10 feet, and went from 30 to 33 feet. Build it in sheet ply with laminated frames, 8 oz glass inside and out and one layer of xynole...less engine but with the interior , tanks etc it worked out to about 1600 pounds and was stressed at the max for open ocean running.

[Captain Blight]

Capt. Blight....why dontcha take a look at the drawings of Blackhawk....they were done at 33 feet, but the intended power was 60 hp.....by narrowing the boat at her chines and shortening to 30 feet you could get the speed that you were looking for. I started at 8 ft. beam, finished the drawings at 10 feet, and went from 30 to 33 feet. Build it in sheet ply with laminated frames, 8 oz glass inside and out and one layer of xynole...less engine but with the interior , tanks etc it worked out to about 1600 pounds and was stressed at the max for open ocean running.I would be very interested in taking a gander at those drawings, Mr Chuck. Shoot me a PM, could you?

[paladin]

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj152/paladinsfo/043-B33InteriorPrelim_05-30-08new.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj152/paladinsfo/Blackhawk33interior02.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj152/paladinsfo/5Hinckley_T38-1.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj152/paladinsfo/T38RConvertible204VBunkweb.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj152/paladinsfo/BlackhawkVIII01.jpg

[paladin]

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj152/paladinsfo/043-SternQtr_02-20-08.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj152/paladinsfo/043-B33InteriorPrelim_05-30-08new.jpg

[paladin]

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj152/paladinsfo/5Hinckley_T38-1.jpg

[paladin]

Re: Long dead designer/ design changes.......this thread talks about the Blackhawk.

[rufustr]

I like this compromise.

http://www.bateau.com/studyplans/FL26_study.htm?prod=FL26

Fast Launch 26

http://www.bateau.com/images/boatpics/FL26_PLPR.jpg
Specifications: LOA: 26' 7.95 m Max. Beam: 8' 2,45 m Hull draft at DWL: 22" 0.56 m Displacement DWL: 3,000 lbs 1360 kg PPI at DWL: 320 lbs/in 57 kg/cm Trailer weight: 1,800 lbs. 815 kg Fuel: 75 gallons 300 liters HP 30 to 80 HP 22 to 60 Kw Material: Plywood cored epoxy composite or foam sandwich Trailer weight means complete hull and deck with engines, tanks etc. but empty.
Maximum beam includes the rubrail. Without the rubrail or with a thinner one, the beam can be reduced to 7' 9" ( 235 cm).
The program of the Fast Launch 26 was an easy to build, economical, classic looking, semi-displacement commuter style boat.
Easy to build with her flat bottom, classic looks with the Sparkman-Stephens Escort look, offshore capable thanks to her size, generous flare, good sized skeg and inboard diesel.
Her hull lines are well balanced and she will perform well in a wide range of speeds from economical displacement speed ( 7mph) to semi-planing at 18 mph with the 50 HP engine option.
Moderate stern volume and fine entry combined with a good size skeg will keep her on track in bad weather. The fine well immersed bow will reduce pounding and the generous flare in the topsides not only looks good but add reserve buoyancy. Draft is a moderate 22" with a well protected propeller. Shaft and prop will not suffer from occasional grounding.

http://www.bateau.com/images/boatpics/FL26_red_bow_wood_1.jpg
While not designed to round Cape Horn, the FL26 is offshore capable in the proper hands.
I (the designer) would not hesitate to cross the Florida Straights, the British Channel or make similar passages in decent weather.

http://www.bateau.com/images/boatpics/FL26_green_stern_1.jpg
Power and speed:
The FL26 is a narrow easily driven hull that will perform economically at displacement speeds: less than 3 l/hr at 6 knots (3/4 US gallon per hour).
14 mph is the top speed with a 30 HP (22 KW) engine but she will reach 18 mph lightly loaded with a 50 HP (37 KW).
The designer does not recommend to install engines larger than 80 HP (60 KW).
With the standard 75 gallon tanks, this gives her an autonomy of around 800 NM. Thanks to it's lightweight, the FL26 can be made unsinkable with buoyancy. foam under the cockpit sole and along the sides.

http://www.bateau.com/images/boatpics/FL26_top_stern_blue.jpg
Layout:
The FL26 is a day boat or picnic launch.
She is best fitted for week-end cruising.
The accommodations are comfortable for two during short cruises: a wide vee berth with a small galley counter and a separate head is as much as we could fit in the short and shallow cabin.
There is sitting headroom on the berth and in the head but not much floor space to move around.
The cabin could be extended and the steering station could be covered by a light pilot house if the builder wants more protection from the elements but it is not possible to turn the FL26 in a full fledged cruising boat. That was not her program and she must be kept light for good performance.
The self bailing cockpit is almost 13' long (3,25 meters). The insulated engine box is unobtrusive but gives good access all around for easy maintenance.
Air intakes are in the topsides and the cockpit will make her quiet underway.
The builder has complete freedom in the layout of the cockpit but the plans show a U shaped seat around a table in the stern.
A swim platform is easy to add. The building notes show the swim platform main dimensions, a drawing and instructions.

http://www.bateau.com/images/boatpics/FL26_acco2.jpg

[Captain Blight]

Pretty boat, huh? Dead flat bottom. I mean a straight line from chine to chine and sternpost to forefoot. Although I bet that, were someone to approach him with a sackful of wonga, Mr Mertens would be happy to figure out an option for some vee in the underwater portions. Already shortlisted but thanks for the reminder!!

[Spokaloo]

She is flat across the beam, no doubt.

She actually shows much shape fore and aft, however.

From amidships she curves up to the stern, keeping only a few inches of the transom in the water. She puts the water back where she found it, she doesn't drag a ton of transom in the water.

Just wanted to clarify.

Also, Mr Mertens has plans to design a very low power, very efficient 25ish foot long power cruised using 75hp outboard, shooting for a cruise of 18-20mph, top around 25, weekending accomodations, and a warped plane V hull.


E

[Captain Blight]

Keep the same classic good looks on top and he might just have a customer. Seriously that would be fantastic. a Faster Launch 25 or whatever. I'd be in.

[Spokaloo]

Look at the thread I started a month or two ago. The boat is called Shearwater, and it is the relative template for what is intended. You can also find it on biekerboats.com, its the sky blue one.

E

[Paul Fitzgerald]

If you can get your hands on Pete Culler's Book, I think it has been reprinted, he has a series of relatively narrow low powered outboard boats, 16', 18', 24' and 30' which are designed to cruise around 20 knots.
Worth a look if you want a comfortable low powered cruiser.

[Spokaloo]

Paul is right.

Commodore Percy's Launch is a great low power outboard...

E

[Captain Blight]

Well, I want planing speeds and very classic very good looks, preferably a raised-decker with a graceful break to the sheer; but I don't want the sucky gas mileage. Not sure how to achieve that combination.

[erster]

Capt. while you may not like the messenger, this does not change what is being turned out these days. Bluejacket 28 is for real as is his 25 1/2 and his 24 footer. So talk to him as with many other fine designers that come here, some less frequent now, while they continue about their business of working with the public. Is this a promotion? This section is about designs and not all people have the luxuary to own moorings and live around the water which offers up the best of all worlds. Some people just need trailiable boats without taking a tractor trailer to pull them and launch them too. Of course many also know of his 24 footer so I will leave that shot out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/LappBJ281r.jpg

[Spokaloo]

Ers makes a compelling point, that is a boat that hits your needs right up the middle.

Here are a couple tidbits on the Chubb launch:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/fighterama2/Scan_1-1.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/fighterama2/Scan-1.jpg

E

[Captain Blight]

I said good-looking boats, Spokaloo!!

:p :p :p


Erster, absolutely true. Food for thought, anyway.

[Spokaloo]

Hmm, I thought Pete Culler did a very elegant job making an efficient file bottom design. There are many cabin variants.

E

[erster]

I still subscribe to the idea of diferent strokes for different folks. People need to feel comfortable with their own needs, still considering that all boats are a compromise in some form or another. The main thing is give love a try. It will in almost always grow on you if you are open minded. If after four days you still are sleeping with the same woman, then you know that you can live with them a bit longer.;):)
After all, this place is like a bar you know.

[Captain Blight]

Speaking of, what kind of power/performance/weight are you looking for with Forbidden Fruit?

[erster]

Speaking of, what kind of power/performance/weight are you looking for with Forbidden Fruit?
I have no concrete answer, only possibilities.