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Phillip Allen
01-26-2009, 11:23 AM
the weather services are predicting power outages for tomorrow and the next day...I heat with electricity. So...I will spend the day waqrming up my masonry house (I don't mean masonry veneer). the interior walls are solid masonry as well as the outside walls...no studs below the second floor...I will warm up both fireplaces (the real kind) and hold the high temp for the outage...being warmed up will keep pipes from freezing if it's not out too long (maybe 48 hours).

up to an inch of ice is expected...there will be no driving...

Mrleft8
01-26-2009, 11:29 AM
Oh joy....

Phillip Allen
01-26-2009, 11:31 AM
yep...

PatCox
01-26-2009, 11:33 AM
An underground house, or at least one covered with a couple of feet of earth, with exposed windows facing south only, with thick concrete floors and walls, I have heard, requires next to nothing in the way of heating or cooling. Why isn't it done?

Paul Pless
01-26-2009, 11:35 AM
up to an inch of ice is expected...there will be no driving...that's the best time though (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpbPfKuJImQ)

Phillip Allen
01-26-2009, 11:36 AM
An underground house, or at least one covered with a couple of feet of earth, with exposed windows facing south only, with thick concrete floors and walls, I have heard, requires next to nothing in the way of heating or cooling. Why isn't it done?


percieved as very ugly...higher cost of construction and doesn't fit the McMasion style
thank the middle class mostly

Canoez
01-26-2009, 11:38 AM
An underground house, or at least one covered with a couple of feet of earth, with exposed windows facing south only, with thick concrete floors and walls, I have heard, requires next to nothing in the way of heating or cooling. Why isn't it done?

If you don't have some light wells with skylights on the roof, it can be a very dark place to live (at least in the part of the home away from the windows. Banks don't like to loan money to build them, either because of concerns over resale value for what they think of as a "cave". Properly sited and designed, they can be pleasant, airy and bright.

Bruce Hooke
01-26-2009, 11:57 AM
An underground house, or at least one covered with a couple of feet of earth, with exposed windows facing south only, with thick concrete floors and walls, I have heard, requires next to nothing in the way of heating or cooling. Why isn't it done?

The idea of underground homes like this was big in the 80's. I have a couple of books on it. I have not followed the issue closely but I think that experience showed that it was no small challenge to keep the water out and keep mold and mildew at bay. First cost is also going to be high and future remodeling quite difficult in most cases.

Given this practical experience, what I think usually makes more sense is to use various hybrid techniques such as an earth berm along the north side to put much of that wall below ground, without going to a "fully" underground structure. I put fully in quotes because almost always, a so called "underground" house in fact has at least one wall that is largely above ground (usually the south wall in the northern hemisphere for obvious reasons).

I should be noted as well that to be energy efficient a solid masonry house of any sort, whether stone, concrete or rammed earth, needs to be carefully designed regarding insulation if it is to be at all efficient in terms of heating costs. The old solid masonry homes in the UK have, from what I've heard, a well developed reputation for being cold (it is all very well if it takes days without heat for the house to drop to freezing temperatures inside, but this is likely to mean that it also very hard to get the house warmed up to levels that are actually comfortable for human habitation)! A massive masonry heat sink for heat storage only works well if it is not just a massive heat sink that perpetually draws heat out of the living space and sends it to the ground or the outside world!!

Of course in a hot climate where the primary concern is cooling, a whole separate set of factors come into play.

ishmael
01-26-2009, 12:08 PM
I've got two words for ya, wood stove.

If the power went down here, for a long time, I'd be screwed. I've got a woodstove I've been dragging around for years, but my insurance company won't insure it. If push came to shove, I'd tell them to shove off.

Spin_Drift
01-26-2009, 12:19 PM
the weather services are predicting power outages for tomorrow and the next day...I heat with electricity. So...I will spend the day waqrming up my masonry house (I don't mean masonry veneer). the interior walls are solid masonry as well as the outside walls...no studs below the second floor...I will warm up both fireplaces (the real kind) and hold the high temp for the outage...being warmed up will keep pipes from freezing if it's not out too long (maybe 48 hours).

up to an inch of ice is expected...there will be no driving...

Did you build your house? I surely hope you will stay warm....

Have you ever seen these:

They gather the heat and keep it in, radiating it out all thru the day or night. You build the fire in the box and you can bake bread or make your roast etc. in them after the fire has burned down. There is a specific technique you use when cooking or baking in them.



http://www.ultimatemarket.com/filemanager/productpics/462picture1Upload.jpg

http://www.ikikivi.com/galleriat/tulisijat/images/leivinuuni.jpg

http://www.ikikivi.com/galleriat/tulisijat/images/takka_ja_leivinuuni.jpg

http://www.muurausjanikka.fi/ximg/uuni3.jpg

Kaa
01-26-2009, 12:23 PM
An underground house, or at least one covered with a couple of feet of earth, with exposed windows facing south only, with thick concrete floors and walls, I have heard, requires next to nothing in the way of heating or cooling. Why isn't it done?

It is done. The military are particular fans of that style :-)

However not many people would choose to live underground.

Kaa

Canoez
01-26-2009, 12:29 PM
ever hear of radon gas?

Radon can be an issue for any house, but particularly those with a basement. There are effective (but potentially expensive) fixes for houses with a Radon problem. Basically, a ventilation system.

Phillip Allen
01-26-2009, 12:29 PM
It is done. The military are a particular fan of that style :-)

However not many people would choose to live underground.

Kaa



bilge rats maybe?

ishmael
01-26-2009, 12:32 PM
The issue of radon is there.

I've got just about two acres, mixed hardwoods, some soft. I'd heat this little house off of it with a wood burner, ff they'd let me!

The nice thing about wood is it's direct. Got wood? Let's burn it. The insurance company won't let me.

Kaa
01-26-2009, 12:36 PM
bilge rats maybe?

Bilge rats live under the floorboards, not under ground :D

Kaa

Memphis Mike
01-26-2009, 12:50 PM
Anything coming down over there yet, Phillip? It's posed to go north of us but we are under an advisory.

Bruce Hooke
01-26-2009, 12:56 PM
Modern underground homes are not at all bunker-like. They can be pleasant, airy, and bright (from natural light) if the design is decently done. Also, if radon is suspected to be an issue I believe it would be pretty inexpensive to install appropriate mitigation systems during the building process. I think what makes most radon mitigation so expensive is the fact of installing it after the building has been finished.

Phillip Allen
01-26-2009, 01:00 PM
Anything coming down over there yet, Phillip? It's posed to go north of us but we are under an advisory.

mist is coming down now...started about 30 minutes ago...28 degrees

George Roberts
01-26-2009, 01:49 PM
There are several underground houses around here. A couple are quite nice and not damp.

One needs to build well above the water table and have good drainage.

Phillip Allen
01-26-2009, 01:51 PM
There are several underground houses around here. A couple are quite nice and not damp.

One needs to build well above the water table and have good drainage.

I suspect that that would limit the underground homes to folks who have more buying power...
Perhaps the folks at Bag End and the like

Bruce Hooke
01-26-2009, 01:57 PM
I suspect that that would limit the underground homes to folks who have more buying power...
Perhaps the folks at Bag End and the like

An underground home is pretty much always going to be a custom home, which does effectively mean you are looking at either reasonably well off people or owner-builders.

However, the cost of the land need not be exceptionally high. A lot would depend on the local circumstances. Clearly an underground home is not going to make much sense in a flat state with a high water table, such as much of Florida. It is also going to be very expensive to build an underground home in a place where the bedrock is not far below the surface. There are, however, there are plenty of regions where sites that would be suitable for an underground home are not that uncommon and not necessarily the most desirable building lots.

paladin
01-26-2009, 02:52 PM
The fluffy white stuff is coming down kats and dawgs here....brought the camp stove out just in case.....closed off basement.....

Chris Coose
01-26-2009, 03:34 PM
The insurance company won't let me.

They will if you comply. You've been living in that problem for how many years now?
I take that back if it is because the type of structure but as I recall, it is your device.

ishmael
01-26-2009, 03:52 PM
'They will if you comply.'

No, GD it, they won't. It doesn't matter how I comply, they won't write the policy. And I checked about. It's a perfectly good woodstove I've used for years. Some loophole about "mobile homes."

Flying Orca
01-26-2009, 03:59 PM
Underground homes interest me quite a bit, as do other unconventional construction methods (very small houses, unconventional materials, etc.). Here in Canada, one of the biggest barriers is building codes designed to enrich builders, contractors, and inspectors while enforcing a homogeneity that brings to mind the songs of Malvina Reynolds. The excuse is safety, but I don't believe it for a second.

botebum
01-26-2009, 04:09 PM
Phillip, get a girlfriend to keep you warm and to hell with the pipes;)

Doug

Phillip Allen
01-26-2009, 04:15 PM
Phillip, get a girlfriend to keep you warm and to hell with the pipes;)

Doug


been there, done that...I ain't gonna have 0NE MORE fight if I can help it...the last one bit and broke doors outa their frames...I've had enough

botebum
01-26-2009, 04:18 PM
...the last one bit and broke doors outa their frames...At your age, it shouldn't be too tough to find one without teeth or the strength to slam a door, let alone break one:D

Doug

Paul Pless
01-26-2009, 04:25 PM
Phillip, get a girlfriend to keep you warm cheaper just to crank the heat wide assed open

botebum
01-26-2009, 04:27 PM
cheaper just to crank the heat wide assed openOh goodie! Blackmail material:D

Doug

Phillip Allen
01-26-2009, 04:37 PM
Oh goodie! Blackmail material:D

Doug


EXACTALY what I thought...

Memphis Mike
01-26-2009, 06:24 PM
I see you are still up and running. Do you think this is going to be just another weathergasm?

StevenBauer
01-26-2009, 06:36 PM
'They will if you comply.'

No, GD it, they won't. It doesn't matter how I comply, they won't write the policy. And I checked about. It's a perfectly good woodstove I've used for years. Some loophole about "mobile homes."


If you'd just buy a new stove it would burn cleaner and be insurable. My little Vermont Castings Aspen is rated to be used in a mobile home. It was $900 new but I found a $100 off coupon online. Just buy an approved stove already. Stop buying so much imported oil. The work of getting in the wood will be good for you.





Steven

Phillip Allen
01-26-2009, 07:08 PM
I see you are still up and running. Do you think this is going to be just another weathergasm?

nope...lookin bad...don't figure on losing the power till tomorrow

There’s a heavy mist coming down and 25 degrees...the car is already incased in a cocoon of ice

Kaa
01-26-2009, 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by botebum http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2083902#post2083902)
Phillip, get a girlfriend to keep you warmcheaper just to crank the heat wide assed open

Interesting metaphors the subject leads you to :D

Kaa

Flying Orca
01-26-2009, 09:03 PM
Please, for the love of all that may or may not be holy but should be kept at least kind of decent, no GOATSE here!

ishmael
01-26-2009, 09:03 PM
"If you'd just buy a new stove it would burn cleaner and be insurable"

Just so. They had a short list of stoves that were acceptable. This wasn't one of them and it pissed me off. The ostensible reason was there wasn't enough air inlet. Well, hell, this place is leaky as a sieve. It made no sense at all, and damned if I'm buying a new stove when the one I've got is perfectly good.

Cut the nose to spite the face?

Kaa
01-26-2009, 09:04 PM
Please, for the love of all that may or may not be holy but should be kept at least kind of decent, no GOATSE here!

What, being on the cover of the TIME magazine didn't make it respectable enough? :D

Kaa

seafox
01-26-2009, 10:07 PM
Ish can you find another insurance company? is your home morgaged? if not why insure it? better yet since you have a couple acres can you build a new home I know some techniques if you live in a free land that cost less than a doller a square foot.
jeff

seafox
01-26-2009, 10:37 PM
Mr Hooke
the use of heat from the ground is called Passive Anual Heat Storage ( PASH) and it creates an unbrella of insulation and water shedding plastic around the underground house so that the heat of summer is assorbed into the walls of the house and comes back out durring the winter. be keeping the mass of the earth around and over the home dry the heat does not wick away

the idea is that a large mass is inside the insulated envolope and the ground water that otherwise might seep into the house is blocked by the plastic not needfully expensive if you build yourself, but I agree with a Canadian above that the building code is a great obstical, it uses the excuse of saftey but is infact part of how those in power wish to increace their power. also their is a goal of " insuring" the contimued value of homes and those who benifit from expensive homes, not the least by keeping out those " undersirables" like poor people and those with different ideas
jeff

Chris Coose
01-26-2009, 10:59 PM
This wasn't one of them and it pissed me off.

So you shall continue to blame the insurance company because you will not comply with the standards.
It is their fault you cannot burn wood to heat. Right?

Bruce Hooke
01-26-2009, 11:26 PM
Mr Hooke
the use of heat from the ground is called Passive Anual Heat Storage ( PASH) and it creates an unbrella of insulation and water shedding plastic around the underground house so that the heat of summer is assorbed into the walls of the house and comes back out durring the winter. be keeping the mass of the earth around and over the home dry the heat does not wick away

Yes, as I understand it, one of the keys is having the right amount of thermal mass inside the insulation layer so that you have enough thermal mass to store the necessary quantity of heat but not so much that you end up using up heat just trying to heat up the mass.

Based on what I've read, achieving the optimal amount of thermal mass in any building requires some careful planning and calculation.

Bruce Hooke
01-26-2009, 11:33 PM
I agree with a Canadian above that the building code is a great obstical, it uses the excuse of saftey but is infact part of how those in power wish to increace their power.

From all I've seen it is a good bit more complicated than this. It is easy to blame those in power but things get a lot more complex when you look at the details. As is so often the case, there are good arguments to made on both sides. I have plenty of beefs with building and zoning codes but I also understand that there are good, valid reasons for building and zoning codes to exist.

ishmael
01-27-2009, 04:58 AM
Chris, they have the right to hold whatever standards they want and I have the right to bitch about it.

This woodstove is a little big for this space, but perfectly safe. It's a nice fireplace as well as an airtight stove. I wish they'd underwrite it. I keep insurance not because of the place and what it contains. not much, but for liability. I tried to get a company to insure just that, liability, and got laughed at. Maybe I should shop around a bit more, but it's the same story wherever I've gone.

Chris Coose
01-27-2009, 06:54 AM
Maybe I should shop around a bit more, .


If you want to burn wood, shopping for different insurance is not the right move.
If you want to burn wood, you need to be shopping for a different stove.

Live in the problem or live in the solution.

ishmael
01-27-2009, 07:13 AM
I'm not buying a new stove for two grand. The one I've got is fine, a good burner. And I will live with it. The answer might be to cancel the damn insurance. No body is likely to break their leg here.

Chris Coose
01-27-2009, 07:32 AM
And I will live with it.
And it shall remain the insurance company's fault that you choose not to comply.

Steven Bauer kind of pointed you in the right direction to hurdle the cost problem but as an example of most of the problems you load up here on the forum, it's like hearding cats with you.
But that is what makes you tick Ish and as long as you don't wander off too far it's part of that special entertainment value all of us long timers bring here.

ishmael
01-27-2009, 08:32 AM
So, in your opinion, I should just bend over, and not use a perfectly good stove so the insurance company is satisfied? It is perfectly good, a Garrison steel stove, and I'd place it right. It's my ass if it ain't right. I should go spend two grand on a new stove? People like you keep the insurance rates up.

Phillip Allen
01-27-2009, 08:42 AM
Don’t pay attention to Chris, Jack...it's built into his physique to submit to authority...like my nephew's Russian girlfriend..."it's system, you cannot change" they have been crippled by the system…

Bruce Hooke
01-27-2009, 09:31 AM
So, in your opinion, I should just bend over, and not use a perfectly good stove so the insurance company is satisfied? It is perfectly good, a Garrison steel stove, and I'd place it right. It's my ass if it ain't right. I should go spend two grand on a new stove? People like you keep the insurance rates up.

If it is perfectly good stove you could probably sell it used for nearly as much as what it would cost you to buy a stove that the insurance company would approve. However the underlying issue is that you have a choice. There are multiple options but two obvious options are:

1. Continue to not use (or use and risk voiding your insurance policy) the stove you have and be irritated that you can't burn wood (or can't burn it without violating your insurance policy).

2. Accept that whether they are right or wrong, you can't force the insurance company to change so you are wasting energy that might better be used in other ways being angry about the insurance company. So, get a stove that meets the insurance regulations and move on.

To put it another way, the insurance company couldn't care less that you are mad at them. So, what do you gain by wasting your energy on being angry at them? All you are doing is wasting your own energy. It is not "bending over" to accept that there are things about the world that you cannot change and moving on.

Part of living in this world is accepting that there are things that we don't like and don't agree with but cannot change. The best path to a happy life is usually going to be to let go of the anger about those things, deal with what needs to be dealt with and move on. Or, if the things you are angry about are truly unacceptable then get out there and start organizing people to push for a change, but I really don't see a wood stove as rising to this level.

ishmael
01-27-2009, 09:45 AM
I'd get a buck and a half for this stove(that's 150 bucks for those who don't have the dictionary) and one that would fit with my insurance company is two grand. Make sense in a long term? Maybe, but I don't have that kinda money to throw around.

My point, if there is one, is that I can install this stove and make it work quite safely. I'd rather not alienate the insurance people, and I don't see why they won't insure it. It's probably better than what they do insure! Screwy. Talk all you want, but it's screwy. The end result is I don't have a wood stove!;)

Hwyl
01-27-2009, 09:57 AM
Great post Bruce.

Jack, go South.

ishmael
01-27-2009, 10:24 AM
It's not a great post, it enshrines a perfect mistake.

Go South? Great if you figure out a way to keep insurance companies at bay.

I've had one claim, after thousands of dollars in premiums. All I got was a fight. It settled after a threat of a law suit. Don't be telling me to go South.

Bruce Hooke
01-27-2009, 10:45 AM
I'd get a buck and a half for this stove(that's 150 bucks for those who don't have the dictionary) and one that would fit with my insurance company is two grand. Make sense in a long term? Maybe, but I don't have that kinda money to throw around.

Is that price for a stove that would fit the insurance company's rules a new price or a used price? If the latter, I have to say I am surprised. They would appear to be limiting you to what must be very expensive stoves when purchased new. If that is a new price, surely there are used stoves available via sources like Uncle Henrys at enough of a discount to make a stove more affordable, especially when you factor in how much you will save on fuel.

I suppose the caveat on this is that if they are saying that the only stoves that will meet their rules are stoves made in the last 3 or 4 years then I can see where there would not be much available on the used market.

Chris Coose
01-27-2009, 05:12 PM
Donít pay attention to Chris, Jack...it's built into his physique to submit to authority

"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference."

I get to sit in serenity next to a crankin wood stove. Jack sits ugly next to his hot air vent, blaming the insurance company.
That ain't submission on my part. That's wisdom.

I am quite familiar with Jack's intransagence because there was a couple of decades that I tilted at windmills. All for not.

George Roberts
01-27-2009, 07:28 PM
"I agree with a Canadian above that the building code is a great obstical, it uses the excuse of saftey but is infact part of how those in power wish to increace their power."

The building codes have no sections that would prohibit an energy efficient home of any design.

The building codes are prescriptive in nature. They give simple prescriptions that if followed will produce a reasonable safe home. They also allow engineering for those who wish to build outside of the prescriptions.

Rigadog
01-27-2009, 08:25 PM
Did you build your house? I surely hope you will stay warm....

Have you ever seen these:

They gather the heat and keep it in, radiating it out all thru the day or night. You build the fire in the box and you can bake bread or make your roast etc. in them after the fire has burned down. There is a specific technique you use when cooking or baking in them.



http://www.ultimatemarket.com/filemanager/productpics/462picture1Upload.jpg

http://www.ikikivi.com/galleriat/tulisijat/images/leivinuuni.jpg

http://www.ikikivi.com/galleriat/tulisijat/images/takka_ja_leivinuuni.jpg

http://www.muurausjanikka.fi/ximg/uuni3.jpg

Tuvulikis???

seafox
01-27-2009, 10:53 PM
Mr Roberts
imagion if you will writing a book by the same process the building code demands you use to build a house. yes its prescriptive and in a great many ways the prescriptions are only those companys who make enough money to prove their systems. things like requiring all wood to be graded vastly inflates costs. use of recycled materials is severly limited and in utah we are blessed with a law that requires engineering stamps even if you build to code. my one experience of trying to get a pole structure "engineered " the cost would have been more than the structure

seafox
01-27-2009, 10:55 PM
Mr Hooke
with the PASH the mass asorbs heat durring the summer and carries it into the winter. do not belive their is any problem with too much

Bruce Hooke
01-27-2009, 11:04 PM
Mr Hooke
with the PASH the mass asorbs heat durring the summer and carries it into the winter. do not belive their is any problem with too much

I can't comment on the PASH system specifically since I am not familiar with the details but I know that in general too much thermal mass can make it harder to warm up the house if it has been cool for a while (say because the residents have been away) and be essentially useless because there is not enough heat input to make use of the available thermal mass. I have read a good bit about underground and passive solar buildings and I know that the standard view is that it is quite possible to have too much thermal mass (and also quite possible to have too little).

Bruce Hooke
01-27-2009, 11:09 PM
Mr Roberts
imagion if you will writing a book by the same process the building code demands you use to build a house. yes its prescriptive and in a great many ways the prescriptions are only those companys who make enough money to prove their systems. things like requiring all wood to be graded vastly inflates costs. use of recycled materials is severly limited and in utah we are blessed with a law that requires engineering stamps even if you build to code. my one experience of trying to get a pole structure "engineered " the cost would have been more than the structure

It sounds like a bunch of your problems are really more local issues than general building code issues. I know some towns in rural New England make it fairly easy to build with ungraded lumber. Also, the requirements related to engineering are, I think, more often than not, local issues rather than national code issues.

I can see both sides of the engineering debate and a lot comes down to where the line is drawn. Clearly we want large public buildings to be engineered. Where it gets harder is at the other end of the scale when we are talking about an owner-builder who wants to use an alternative technique to build his own home and is effectively prevented from doing so by the high cost of getting the plans approved by an engineer.

seafox
01-28-2009, 10:28 PM
I should say that I belive in the main you are right Mr Hooke. I think that in a lot of ways I live in a little town area that is trying to become big town.

I started to state some opinions about the local goverment but deleted it because I am old and tired and don't care to fight them any more. ( is their anything called "post years and years of stress syndrom?) because of time I took away from work to " clean up my yard" of firewood in the driveway and construction materials colected for an adition. it was a small but significent contributer to the forclosure of my home. but anyway I expect I will move out of this area sometime this year. just not sure where I will go. I do know their are areas that are less restrictive. but then again it is often harder to make a living in areas with fewer people.

huisjen
01-30-2009, 07:37 AM
Dear Fool. (That'd by Ish.) You have already stated your problems and you refuse to fix them.

Problem #1 is that your "house" is leaky. Tighten it up. Hire an energy auditor. (But not me.) They'll point out what to do and can tell you how much you can safely tighten up by measuring air flow. They can also point out places where more insulation will help, once the excessive leaks are sealed up. www.heatkeepers.net

Problem #2 is that your insurance company told you specifically (post 38 of this thread) that what you need is a stove that gets its combustion air from outside. I would expect these stoves to be easy to fit with an external combustion air supply:

https://www.unclehenrys.com/CLASSIFIEDS/Search/ExhibitDetail.aspx?ExhibitID=-2135474042&ishistoricsearch=N&ReturnPage=%2fSubscription%2fClassifieds%2fSearch% 2fEntireCategory.aspx%3fsearchid%3d40459711%26sear chresultindex%3d0%26ishistoricsearch%3dN%23
https://www.unclehenrys.com/CLASSIFIEDS/Search/ExhibitDetail.aspx?ExhibitID=-2135474042&ishistoricsearch=N&ReturnPage=%2fSubscription%2fClassifieds%2fSearch% 2fEntireCategory.aspx%3fsearchid%3d40459711%26sear chresultindex%3d0%26ishistoricsearch%3dN%23
https://www.unclehenrys.com/CLASSIFIEDS/Search/ExhibitDetail.aspx?ExhibitID=-2135473224&ishistoricsearch=N&ReturnPage=%2fSubscription%2fClassifieds%2fSearch% 2fEntireCategory.aspx%3fsearchid%3d40460363%26sear chresultindex%3d0%26ishistoricsearch%3dN%23
Your excuses are now null and void.

Dan

Phillip Allen
02-01-2009, 10:29 PM
Dear Fool. (That'd by Ish.) You have already stated your problems and you refuse to fix them.

Problem #1 is that your "house" is leaky. Tighten it up. Hire an energy auditor. (But not me.) They'll point out what to do and can tell you how much you can safely tighten up by measuring air flow. They can also point out places where more insulation will help, once the excessive leaks are sealed up. www.heatkeepers.net

Problem #2 is that your insurance company told you specifically (post 38 of this thread) that what you need is a stove that gets its combustion air from outside. I would expect these stoves to be easy to fit with an external combustion air supply:

https://www.unclehenrys.com/CLASSIFIEDS/Search/ExhibitDetail.aspx?ExhibitID=-2135474042&ishistoricsearch=N&ReturnPage=%2fSubscription%2fClassifieds%2fSearch% 2fEntireCategory.aspx%3fsearchid%3d40459711%26sear chresultindex%3d0%26ishistoricsearch%3dN%23
https://www.unclehenrys.com/CLASSIFIEDS/Search/ExhibitDetail.aspx?ExhibitID=-2135474042&ishistoricsearch=N&ReturnPage=%2fSubscription%2fClassifieds%2fSearch% 2fEntireCategory.aspx%3fsearchid%3d40459711%26sear chresultindex%3d0%26ishistoricsearch%3dN%23
https://www.unclehenrys.com/CLASSIFIEDS/Search/ExhibitDetail.aspx?ExhibitID=-2135473224&ishistoricsearch=N&ReturnPage=%2fSubscription%2fClassifieds%2fSearch% 2fEntireCategory.aspx%3fsearchid%3d40460363%26sear chresultindex%3d0%26ishistoricsearch%3dN%23
Your excuses are now null and void.

Dan

Uh, Dan...a leaky house DOES get it's combustion air from outside...

PatCox
02-01-2009, 10:36 PM
Insurance company ratings are based on real, accurate, and massive amounts of, data. And when the insurance companies see from their statistics that houses with a particular type of stove are more likely to burn down, the insurance companies (and the fireman, the fire inspectors) are the ones that go to the writers of the code and press for a prohbition. Sure, the manufacturers try to put their oar in too, but these things are not corrupt, they are based on real loss statistics.

Phillip Allen
02-01-2009, 10:57 PM
I'm not arguing with the insurance companies...though they do not have my best interests in mind...they have their own interests in mind.

I just ran two open fireplaces for 6 days at full blast...no outside air provided as such...house didn't burn and I didn't die of CO poisnioning...I did tend the fires and that may be a difference...the insurance companies do not take into account the personal knowledge of the homeowner...only raw statistics...I understand this...others do not.

If I were Jack...I would work around the insurance company...and I would not burn my house down