refastening

[Reilly, Mark]

I'm thinking of buying an early 60's chriscraft 36 footer. The survey says it needs refastening. One yard said that the owner should just add fasteners without removing the old-ones. This sounds like a "cheap fix now, big trouble later" repair to me.

What's the answer?

Thanks

Mark

[ssor]

Translation: It is on the verge of falling apart!

[seayou77]

If you add fastners, sister fasteners, you weaken the frames. If the screws are gone how are the bolts in the floors?(Centerline, aka backbone.) If they are tired or made of a dissimilar metal then you are ready for a major restoration. Chris was a production boat builder as opposed to a custom boatbuilder. So there were some tricks that made the process faster and some which shortened the life of an otherwise handsome craft. Get a flashlight and get into the far reaches, if you see something funky step back and give a good thought about whats going on.

[Concordia..41]

We calculated refastening costs for a friend's Trumpy a couple of years ago.

There are plenty of variables, but done correctly, i.e. old screw removed, hole drilled out and doweled, new screw countersunk correctly, hole rebunged, bung sanded flush - new screw + labor = $4-6 per screw.

And since anyone who has owned a boat more than a day knows about "boat math" - calculate the number of fastenings and multiple by $8.00

Nothing wrong with buying a boat that needs work, just make sure it's within your capabilities - (financially, time, and work wise)
Good Luck- M

[Gary E]

Survey sez ehh...
The built in skeptic in me sez I got to think that of all the so called surveys I have ever seeen on older wood boats of which this one definatly qualifies are ment to do several things, one of wich is to generate a cover my @$$ statement for the guy doing the servey, other reasons to maybe create some biz for a yard.

Is the boat a plywood hull, or a double plank, or the lap strake sea skif construction? CC built all those styles. Is it in the water now? How does it look to you on the inside? well maintained boats look clean, notso well cared for look otherwise... so many questions to ask.

A friend of mine has a wood 47' sportfisherman trusts a couple of fellows that work in a marina in Croydon. Maybe you can ask their opinon. He has been keepin his boat there for at least the last 25 or so winters that I know of. Summers in Cape May.

Jack's Marina
(215) 638-2626
1057 Totem Rd
Bensalem, PA 19020

If it come to $8 per screw, I know one guy def not interested, ME.

[BuccaneerCapn]

$8.00 per screw sounds outrageously high. I am not familiar with this process necessarily, as I haven't done it before, but this economically not feasible for larger boats. If that is the case, wood boats will be going away soon.

[Dale Genther]

Is the boat in question Sea Robin, located at Pruitt's Resturant and was surveyed at Haven Harbor on Tuesday? If so I know the boat very well. My boat is the wood 40 foot sailboat two slips in from her. The current owner used her a lot and to my knoweledge she is a good boat (I've spent a good bit of time on her). I was surprised to find out there was an engine problem in the return to her slip. The engines always ran fine as far as I know. As far as refastening is concerned, it is possibly to simply add new fasteners in addition to the old. The success of this is dependant on the size of the screws, the qty. of the screws, the size of the frames, etc. Even thought this may work it is not the best approach. If you don't mind me asking, who suggested just adding add'l fasteners. I probably know the yard and can tell you if the suggestion was based upon any real ability or knowledge on the suggester's part. The cost of refastening is very difficult to estimate as one never knows the condition of the wood and the screws and how difficult they may be to remove. Depending on the condition of the fasteners it may be possiblle to simple start a program whereby you replace a certain amount of them every winter, starting with the ones below the waterline. It is something that is not usually very difficult to do, It is just very time consuming. Typically it is not something you would want to pay somebody else to do, just do it yourself. Before you start on a major project like this it would be best to get a second opinion on the fasteners that were pulled (you do have them don't you?. If the boat is the one I think it is, the survey was done by a women who I have little faith in her ability to survey a wood boat properly.

PS I was planning on being present for the survey, just because I was curious, but had to be out of town.

[ssor]

Reply to Buc,
Well let's see: Yard rate 70 per hour. time to remove old bung without making a mess of the plank, 30 seconds. time to remove screw 15 seconds if you can get a screwdriver into the slot. time to dig the crap out of the screw slot 1 minute. time to drill out the old hole ( assuming that all of your tools are within arms reach)30 seconds. Blow the sawdust out of the hole 10 seconds.apply glue to plug and drive into frame 30 seconds. apply glue to plug and drive into plank 30 seconds. drill and counter bore new screw hole 15 seconds. drive new screw 15 seconds. bung screw 30 seconds. sand bung 10 seconds.That's 30+15+60+30+10+30+30+15+15+30+10=275 seconds/60=4.58min./60=.0764 hrs.x70=5.34 dollars per screw. and that don't count time fer cussin. :D

[ 04-07-2005, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: ssor ]

[Concordia..41]

Ok, spent the day pulling screws. Actually, 90% of the day was spent sanding and removing bungs.

Started at 7:30 a.m. Had a total of 10 screws in my cup at 10:30. It didn't take 18 minutes a screw (and things really picked up after that), but it took that long to get the process set up and running. Started working off scaffolding, but removed it and worked off a ladder as going frame by frame seemed to be the most effective.

We're replacing frames so I only pulled screws from 2 frames top to bottom, but the rest of a 10 hour day was devoted to exposing bungs and gingerly removing same - keel to rub rail port side. And yes, I have it down to a science at this point. :rolleyes:

The estimates above are quite accurate for quality yard work. If you're going to do it yourself, it's about .74 cents for the screw (16 x 2") and a couple of cents for the new bung. You put the price on your time, the investment in tools, and yard/storage costs.

It can be done, but it's not for the faint of heart or someone looking for a cheap way out...

[seayou77]

If you're Removing all the fastners don't forget to keep enough in there to hold things together. The critique against pegging the holes is that a bit of epox, could get between the plank and frame. Keep her tight, and be systematic in approach. Some roll out a cash register tape from gunnel to keel and mark the ones changed, roll the tape out next year and get the odd ones.

[Concordia..41]

No worries D ;) - James has 5 laminated frames made up and we did #'s 1 & 3. (Actually 36 and 38, but who's counting...)

Dowling and epoxy was my advice for someone not replacing frames - wouldn't wish that on anyone...the guy's already worried about refastening...

As for me I have PLENTY of new wood - another 68 board feet I might add...

:rolleyes:

Cheers!
- M

[paladin]

Well now Margo...the really neat thing to do izz dunno put any screws in to start with.......

[Mike Vogdes]

Mark, if you do go the refasten route Dales advice about starting a program of replacing a percentage every haul out sure does make it much easier to tackle a big job like this. Your probably going to need a Read and Prince screwdriver as well, I believe Sears still carries them. Most Chris Craft were built with Read and Prince (Fearson) screws.

[ssor]

Jamestown Dist. sells r&p bits for power drivers.

[Reilly, Mark]

Thanks Guys! I'm listening and I hear 3 things. First, the answer to my original question seems to be that the propper fix is to remove the existing fastners and replace them; Second, This doesnt have to be the end of the world and depending on the actual condition of the boat, I may have options regarding the pacing of the project, doing it myself, having the right yard do the work etc.; and,Third, It would pay to have a good look at the other hardware and the frames. I'll let you know how it plays out.

Mark

[BuccaneerCapn]

I have seen comments on two different ways of doing things. One, fill old holes with dowels and make new ones, and two, put the new screw in the same whole. Which is right? I would think that adding dowels and making new holes, just adds holes and can weaken the frame.

[seayou77]

Doweling the holes is an attempt to give the new screw a chance to bite in old wood. The other bit is to clean up the hole for the screw head to land. So fill it and drill it. If done incorrectly you could screw the boat up. the idea is to drill out most of the dowel for the new screw. The removal of old screws leaves the hole a bit tattered and a bigger screw and bigger bung is best fix but sometimes not feasible. Thanks for letting me weigh in, I am thankfully beyond that stage...for now. ;)

[carioca1232001]

Mark Reilly,
BTDT (been there, done that)!

Mine´s a 1962, 32-ft CARBRASMAR (Brazilian)twin-engined motor-cruiser, based on a Scandanavian design. Same yard also built hundreds of Chris-Craft (like yours) under license.

Briefly, this is how the below-the-water-line (BWL)overhaul went, not without first consulting with the experts on WBF:

Start : 25 th August 2004:

BWL hull data : Double-planked cedar (diagonal inside 10cm x 0,7 cm, longitudinal outside 15-17cm x 1,5 cm) on peroba-do-campo sawn frames.
Original fasteners: # 8, 1 1/4 " copper/bronze, round-head, slotted screws. Fasteners not bunged, but flush with plank surface.

Preliminaries :

BWL sanded down to bare wood to enable identification of remedy required:

Planks from amidship-to-stern needed replacement.

Planks from bow-to-amidships in good condition and needed only refastening.

All new screws to be silicon-bronze # 10, 1 1/2 ", flat-headed, slotted.

Screws to be counter-sunk, Sikaflex pumped into screw-hole to seal out water and screw-heads to be bunged over.

Re-planking : All old fasteners taken out, planks removed, all old-screw-holes reamed out and plugged with Ipê ("e-pay")dowels cum glue

(Ipê is a hard, heavy, rot-free and everlasting wood.)

Used "unscrew-ums" to extract stubborn, old screws, that had either broken or would not budge. Time-consuming but would have been much worse without the right tools

Inside of new Ipê planks covered with linseed-oil putty, before being pressed into place over the diagonal planking and finally screwed down with # 10, 1 1/2" , flat-headed, slotted silicon-bronze screws.

Re-fastening : Bow-to-amidships cedar planking refastened, driving new # 10 screws into the older # 8 holes; where it was necessary to "unscrew-um", old screw holes were reamed and plugged with ipê dowels cum glue, and a new # 10 screw installed by-the-side.

End : Mid-December 2004

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid150/pd1967448d8370297420e32f85da40843/f5eefa95.jpg

Two-coats of International Intertuf 2-part coal-tar paint applied on bared BWL hull, followed by two coats of Vinyl and a final two coats of anti-fouling paint.

[Cullen T.M. McGough]

Originally posted by Reilly, Mark:
Thanks Guys! I'm listening and I hear 3 things. First, the answer to my original question seems to be that the propper fix is to remove the existing fastners and replace them;Sometimes. Maybe. How long do you want the boat to last? How good are the frames? Can you afford a full replacement? Are the planks sound? Are the old fasteners corroded?


Originally posted by Reilly, Mark:

Second, This doesnt have to be the end of the world and depending on the actual condition of the boat, I may have options regarding the pacing of the project, doing it myself, having the right yard do the work etc.;
Sometimes, you just want to go sailing. Last year I reefed, added an additional fastener (per plank) and re-caulked a 34" cutter. Was it the best long term solution? Probably not. Did the planks "suck in" and correct a chronic leaking problem? Yep. Could the owner afford it? Yep.


Originally posted by Reilly, Mark:
and,Third, It would pay to have a good look at the other hardware and the frames. I'll let you know how it plays out.
If you do it yourself, a decent trick is to get a forstner bit slightly larger than the bungs and use that for bung extraction. Then re-bung to the slightly larger size. This will save you cracking/splintering planks where a bung is gripping the surface wood.

Good luck!

[carioca1232001]

Cullen T.M. McGough wrote:


If you do it yourself, a decent trick is to get a forstner bit slightly larger than the bungs and use that for bung extraction. Then re-bung to the slightly larger size. This will save you cracking/splintering planks where a bung is gripping the surface wood I recall you recommending the forstner bit when I queried some months earlier about overhauling the topsides of my boat.

In my limited experience, the planks are more likely to get damaged when extracting broken/stubborn old screws than when removing the bungs over screw heads.