hydraulic helm

[R.J]

I am looking at installing a hydraulic helm in my motor sailor.
I would like to know if any one else has one in there boat and how they feel about it.
The main system I am looking at is from sea star, but they claim that there is no feed back from the rudder to helm. I would like to know if this has been over come by anyone

[John E Hardiman]

Went looking for the Sea Star systems and both types I saw (manual and power pump types) would give no tactile feedback. Common feedback indication for a pump-cylinder hydraulic helm is rudder position indication only. As I assume that you are using a wheel pump to cylinder (non-powered), you either have to plumb a indication circuit for rudder postion, or use a geared indication in the center of the wheel. You will get no tactile feedback.

The only way to get tactile feedback from a hydraulic helm (without going to sumulated feedback) is to use a cylinder-cylinder system. These types of systems can be quite large under the dash, which is the reason for a pump-cylinder setup.

[R.J]

Where have you seen the cylinder to cylinder setup at? And yes I was plan on using the pump to cylinder application.
but if i can find a feed back system i would use that.

[Ed Killian]

R.J. - I'm curious, why hydraulic steering? The old (1937) 30' Richarson I am about to rennovate has it and I've been puzzled about why? Is it like installing power steering? Why would a slow old girl like mine need it?
Ed

[John E Hardiman]

Originally posted by Ed Killian:
I'm curious, why hydraulic steering? Why would a slow old girl like mine need it?
EdThe most common reason for hydraulic steering is arrangements, especially on older hulls. Hydraulics was the best way to solve the pull-pull cable arraggement problems before modern cable systems and some feel that they are far more robust and reliable.

[R.J]

There are many advantages to hydraulic over cable steering systems.
The main reason is cables wear and brake. Or starch or periods of years.
Where hydraulic maintains the same rotation regardless of the amount you use it.
Also you don’t need power from your engine to run you helm if you have the system on a larger boat ( such as mine 34’ damn never 11000lbs displacement)
As with most things in the fine world of boats..to each, there own.

[Ed Killian]

Wow! Guess I was pretty smart to buy a boat with hydraulic steering! Yep, nothing like an informed consumer. Now, If I can just get her to float...

[John E Hardiman]

RJ, I don't seem to be able to google up what I've seen out there. The way it was made was to use two double-acting cylinders (or cylinder sets)set up in a continious loop push-pull arrangement. At the helm station, the wheel was attached to the cylinder with a rack (or with a gear & chains). Turn the wheel, move the rack, move the rudder. The more the rudder was turned the harder it got to turn the wheel. Release the wheel, flow over the rudder pretty much centered it, which re-centered the rack and and the wheel. At zero speed will still have no tactile feel. E-mail me if you want me to draw a picture of this type of circuit.

[Zane Lewis]

HI John,
Re Rotary actuator hydraulic cylinders.
I work for a largish Hydraulics company and most players in the game offer a range of them.

Try the following web site's.

www.parker.com (http://www.parker.com)

http://www.parker.com/frameless/default.asp?substDivId=&FamID=0&DivID=29&GID=0&Type=2&ID=29&TechID=6&PSID=22

Is this the sort of thing you had in mind. The LTR series is a low pressure (1000psi) hydraulic rotary actuatory cylinder. Standard rotation of between 45 to 450 degs and torques of between 395 - 22500 lb-in.

Cheer's
Zane

[John E Hardiman]

Thanks Zane, I know about those, we use them all the time for valve operation and they can be used for the rudderhead end in a powered application, but they have too much internal drag (as a powerhead should) and the face angle of the rack makes it self-holding. Not suitable for tactile feedback wheel. I was thinking more of a trick-wheel like setup.

[Phil Young]

I used to have a 52' motor sailor, twin helms, one inside, one outside, both wheels with a rotary pump, driving a hydraulic ram arrangment at the rudderhead in the aft cabin. My memory is that there was some feedback, mainly in fairly heavy weather helm situations. In light wind or when sailing reasonably balanced, a fairly dead feel to it. One thing I hated, but was told is normal, is that it had some "creep", when sailing with a bit of weather helm you had to keep turning the wheel just ever so slowly to stay on course. I was told that is fairly normal, but I tended to feel like someting was slipping, and that one day the whole thing would pack up and leave me with no steering at a critical moment.

[R.J]

Phil i need some answers buddy.
How did you fix this?
Did you change anything out for something new?
What did you find wrong with you helm????

[John E Hardiman]

RJ as to Phil's experince, what he says jives. In reality, all hydraulic system leak/bypass some fluid [ except ones that are broke in which case all the fluid is already in the bilge :D ]. That he had some feedback at high pressures tends to confirm that the checks in the pump had a little bypass (the amount of pump feedback depends on the actual type of pump, but normaly the checks isolate the pump from the holding pressure as most pumps bypass significantly more than the check valves). On a new system, this would be insignificant; as the checks wear (and a streering system sees a lot more flow reversal cycles/seat wear than most hydraulic systems due to the nature of the beast) you get drift, which is why on high end systems the feedback circuit is electro-mechanical vice hydraulic so at least one of your indications doesn't drift.

[John Bell]

I spent a couple of weeks on a powerboat with hydraulic steering this summer. The most frustrating thing to me with it was that it did not always center at the same place, due to the creep others have described here I suppose.

The only way I could be sure I was close to center, such as when starting up, was to turn the wheel to full lock and then back two revolutions as it was four turns lock-to-lock.

My own boat has teleflex steering which is supposed to have an anti-feedback mechanism. (This is an outboard). Since the weather has gotten colder, the anti-feedback seems to have packed up and stopped working. Having to tug at the wheel constantly is worse than the creep!

[MarkC]

Offerings from Vetus.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/p2f1f4cd7afb428246e5ede14335a2588/f9ee88ea.jpg http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/pac2faead25a1f70b31a9df9c814b7150/f9ee88e8.jpg

Why stop at hydraulic steering when you can have a full hydraulic control system - drive, steering, thruster, anchor winch?

[R.J]

The steering is the most reliable of the systems you just mentioned. The last owner of this boat had those systems in place and had nothing but problems. I also work for one of the largest hydraulic companies in the world and understand the nature of putting those units into a boat as small as mine, the cost of the units and the trouble of fitting lines in a confined space dose not apple to me.
But I believe we have come up with a system for my helm. I am waiting on the two cylinders so we could go ahead and test to see if it might work. Dose any one know of a formal to determine the force placed upon a rudder by water?