Traditional clinker vs. lap ply (& tools required)

[Matt Middleton]

I've lately been seriously considering trying out traditional clinker on a small boat, like a pram or a sailing canoe.

What are some trade-offs compared to glued lap ply(cost, weight, tool investment), and what tools would I have to have to do the traditional construction? (I have a friend with a jointer, planer, table saw. etc., for any of the milling of rough lumber.)

Thanks,
Matt Middleton

[john welsford]

Glued ply lap ( see the Huffboat article in www.duckworksmagazine.com (http://www.duckworksmagazine.com) for my most recent one) is pretty quick and easy, does not dry out nad leak if towed down the freeway on a burning hot day, is stiff strong and light, and needs a lot les in the way of skills to build.
Tools, jigsaw ( sabre saw) plane, drill , driver, ( both could be hand ones ( the ultimate cordless tool, never needs recharging) but I have a cordless or two) a chisel or two, sandpaper, perhaps a spokeshave, some clamps which you could practice on by making some, and the gear needed to mix and spread glue.
JohnW
smile.gif


Originally posted by Matt Middleton:
I've lately been seriously considering trying out traditional clinker on a small boat, like a pram or a sailing canoe.

What are some trade-offs compared to glued lap ply(cost, weight, tool investment), and what tools would I have to have to do the traditional construction? (I have a friend with a jointer, planer, table saw. etc., for any of the milling of rough lumber.)

Thanks,
Matt Middleton

[Chadd Hamilton]

Well Matt, I've built both ways and the tools are about the same save for the riveting tools. You'll need a backing iron(I use a very large lag bolt), a pair of nippers, a nailset which can be easily made from a medium sized lag bolt or metal rod, and a 4 oz(very important) ballpien hammer. I have about $25 in my tools and they've set and peened many rivets.

One additional tool required for traditional construction that I find handy is an extra person. It gets difficult to set and peen rivets when you get down to the last couple of planks and your back is about to go out and you really can't see up under there. That's when I beg and plead with my wife that it won't take long to knock this plank out if she'll just hold right there :D

I've got a few picks of my nail set and backing bolt if you're interested in making them yourself.

[Matt Middleton]

Sounds like I'm not too far off, then. I'm considering one of the Veritas block planes for my next addition to the tool box.

John- Yes, I did see that article. Nice boat, by the way. I really like the pulling boats like yours, and it's a goal to build one at some point.

Chadd- I'm definitely interested in pics- please post them. Having built using both methods, which do you prefer, and why? Which one takes more time or money?

Thanks guys,
Matt Middleton

[john welsford]

Thanks Matt, I guess I should have added that the other consideraton is "what is it you wnat at the end of the project?" I tend to treat boatbuilding as the fastest possible way from the plan I have just drawn to the water. Huffboat has less than 60 hours in her, is built almost entirely from cover sheets of ply recycled wood and secondhand scrounge, ( total cost about US$50 including the carbon fibre oar shafts) but still only weighs 85 lbs and works real good. But the esthetics are not the same as the traditionally built steamed frame, solid wood, riveted boat which I have built several of , enjoyed building , loved showing off to freinds but am far too impatient to build many of.
Whichever way you go, enjoy it.

John

Originally posted by Matt Middleton:
Sounds like I'm not too far off, then. I'm considering one of the Veritas block planes for my next addition to the tool box.

John- Yes, I did see that article. Nice boat, by the way. I really like the pulling boats like yours, and it's a goal to build one at some point.

Chadd- I'm definitely interested in pics- please post them. Having built using both methods, which do you prefer, and why? Which one takes more time or money?

Thanks guys,
Matt Middleton

[ishmael]

My 2 cents.

Cost will depend on availability of stock. Here in NE it is still possible to find small sawyers cutting cedar at quite reasonable prices, same for oak. In FLA, hmm, I dunno but it would seem good solid stock is gonna be expensive.

It is more frustrating working with solid wood. It has defects, it splits when you're trying to get it to twist in a tuck, etc. It will take longer to build with solid stock, especially the first time out. But for all the frustrations of it, cutting, fitting and fastening cedar is much more pleasant and aestetically pleasing than cutting, fitting and googing ply, IMO.

Ply has the advantage, mentioned above, of not drying on a trailer, and of being much more forgiving of bad fits.

Your call, best of luck.

Jack

P.S. And following along the ply being more forgiving of bad fits, even if it takes twice as long to build with solid wood, you will likely improve your craftmanship more by being tested by that fire. The fits have to be good or the boat will leak, unless you resort to a different species of googe. ;) Just another consideration.

[ 11-26-2002, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Chadd Hamilton]

Well Ish and John have some good points on building with solid wood. Laying a plank with expoxy is alot faster than fastening one with rivets, Matt. And it doesn't have to land perfect when using goop. But on the other hand, working with Atlantic Cedar has been nothing but positive for me; it works great(it doesn't split nearly as bad as red cedar) and it smells heavenly.

Being in Florida, you might wanna look around for some cypress if you decide to do a solid boat. Otherwise, Anchor Hardwoods in Wilmington carry clear Atlantic Cedar and Okume ply-plus they ship.

Here's a pic of my riveting set. The larger bolt is my backing iron and the little nib on the end is a piece of an an old drill bit that is set in a recess. I use it to hold the countersunk nail heads. The smaller bold is my nailset.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid40/pec7c02b1dd6e86e06a79de5f9e7f895a/fd001b60.jpg

And since yer looking for a small winter project, here is Ian Oughtred's (6' 10" LOA) Feather Pram that I am planking. Very close to the Gardside pram that you are looking at. I'll plug Ian here: His plans include the plank lines and details for traditional construction(10 planks per side) and Glue-Lap construction (8 planks per side).
Here's a recent progress photo
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid40/pe77349399038451560f963633662ef04/fd001b5f.jpg

I've posted some more pics here if you're interested.
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291065527

[NormMessinger]

Whoa! Beautiful. Are you going to finish it bright? ...if only for one season?

--Norm

[Bruce Hooke]

I think that given the closer fits required for traditional construction you will it easier going if you expand somewhat on the quantity and quality of your 'edge' tools over what you need for glued lap (by edge tools I am referring to planes, chisels and the like). For example, your plan of getting a good block plane sounds like a good starting point, and you would probably put longer planes to good use if you had them. I think as you go along you will see what you need and it shouldn't be anything that would have a major impact on the overall budget for the project...

I am strongly considering going this route on my next boat. After two boats that used lots of that blasted, wonderful, annoying stuff called epoxy I am ready for a boat that calls for less mixing of chemicals and more fine woodworking!

[Bayboat]

Right on, Bruce. There's something very satisfying about building a boat with wood-to-wood fits that don't leak.

[Chadd Hamilton]

Well Norm...I thought about how nice she'd be natural finished, but the problem is that I have all these small countersunk holes along the planks and at their ends that I *feel* should be puttied and faired. Plus some unsightly hood-endage that I'd rather not talk about :D

So, I'm gonna paint her white and varnish the insides. Should keep me busy 'til spring.