Grey Seal, Floors, - mast pillar.

[kng]

Hi how are you ?? I have to glue the mast pillar of the grey seal.. and I would like to receive advices about this... thinking in a lightning protection would you put the copper wire inside the mast pillar? or would you put it outside in a special rail ? anything to do before glueing the mast pillar ? and about the floors I was thinking to land the floors over the beneath frames taking they curvature.. what do you think ? would be better to make the floors straight ? this would take 4 or more inches...
well thank you very much any thougths that can help at this stage will be wonderful... interiors, berths, kitchen.. yes it is too much !! thank you very much !!
I will post images soon...
Emiliano.

[hank woll]

hi emiliano-i'm just starting to build-i'm just now figuring out the molds-i see that 1 and 2 stop at the inner stem as do the shorter stern frames-i'm stumped as to the heel dimensions-my measurements check at two sources-offsets and the mold figures so i must be close-but the numnbers i see for rabbet and keel are confusing-do i make them up to centerline and cut back as needed?-any help is appreciated-thanks-hank

[kng]

Hi Hank, I really don´t understand very much your question... but if I am right... I built the frames like you can see here frames (http://www25.brinkster.com/kng/const7.htm) you can see that the frame reach the centerline... then you will have to scarf or cut wood so the frame gets its position... (I will need help from the forumites !! please!! ) I remember I was confused too when I started... you can make a scaled model to see what happend when you attach the stern... also see this stem -frames (http://www25.brinkster.com/kng/const11.htm) there you will see how lands the stem or stern at the frames... but remember to add extra wood layer to the outer side of the moulds so you can make the scarfs for the planking jogg... this goes for the beneath frames too. (I tell you this becouse I didn´t and was a pain to add wedges later)... well I hope you undestand... I have sent you an e-mail.. please confirm me if you have received.

Emiliano.

[chuckm]

I think Emiliano is telling us to have at least a 1/2 in overlay of the frames over the mold pattern. He's makking a large notch like grove into the frame to accept a good line or spilling of each plank'. I'm also building my frames up 3' x 1' 3/4 to 1' 7/8's. My daughters home from college I'll ask her for help in photo-coping images to computer. I need a digital camera. All my frames are complete, next is strongback. This boatbuilding project takes time.

[hank woll]

hi-i think i'm starting to get the ides-but what are the measurements below the last wl number in the list that arefor rabbet and keel-what are these telling me?-thanks guys-oh by the way-what are you using for the molds-3/4 ply?-hank

[kng]

Hi hank !! well.. I have used 3/4" plywood for the moulds.. the measurements... for the rabbet and keel are the width at that point... you have to look the height at that especific point, for example at frame 2# for the rabbet and keel you will have the "heights from DWL" the "half breadths" , this is half the width of the rabbet or keel.. from the Center line... and the "diagonals" I have to confess I didn´t use them...
so for example when Iains says.. a rabbet height from DWL of 1-2-2 he is telling that in this point you will have (take care of negatives numbers) 1 feet 2 inches and 2 eights from the DWL... then you go to the half breadths and see the width and then you will have the measurement of your keelson for example,if the 1-2-2 was at that point.. I hope you understand..... Tnanks Chuckm for translating... that was what I wanted to say.. are you building a Grey Seal too ??
cheers !!
Emiliano.

[hank woll]

hi emiiano-i think i see what you mean-in otherwords the numbers for rabbet and keel refer to those members at that point-does thar mean that the frames are faired in to the centerline an cut to fit the stem/sternpost and keelson later-i think i will laminate the frames on the molds-when you say to add thickness to frames is that because you are trying to get a full landing surface for each plank on the frame-i don't think that's needed-have you seen the articles in wb 1996 issues 128,9,30-about grey seal-they routed flats on the frames for a landing of part of the planks-no mention of added depth--also did you make the full frame molds from one piece of plywood-it seems a bit tough to do-well enough for now-i need to go try to line out some more mold patterns-later-hank

[kng]

Hi hank... yes you will have less gaps between the planks and the frames but I think you will have it at all... I have build it without scarfing the previous planks thats why I had an increased gap, but I think you will have gaps... try it and and then if you need you can add an extra layer but the problem with this is the lower parts of the frames.. the beneadth floors you will have gaps if you follow the shape of the frames lines becouse it has the curve inverted... (if you are building the keel version... what are you building ??)
and think about the planks that lands one flat with the previous one... they will have a gap under there... that happens at the water line aprox...
I have made the moulds with 4 sheets if I remember well... I joint two halfs and fit a good base of 2" x 2" at the base line... and add diagonal timbers to hold the mould..then I cut the shape, from 2 sheets of plywood you can make 2 or 3 frames moulds... one inside of the other..by eye you have to think if it will be strong enough..
here is a drawing of the laps... http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/kng/LAPS.jpg http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/kng/laps2.jpg
hope you understand... cheers !! have you seen the web site? I think the images will help you.
Emiliano.

[hank woll]

hi emiliano-i'm not sure about those wedges-if you bevel the lower plank shouldn't the next one lie fair-you do need to plane a flat spot on the frame -have you seen the wb articles-they show that very well-anyway-i think i just got smarter-i was trying to take my mold measurements from the first sheet of the plans-the half breadths-so i did not have an end point-well i should have been taking them from sheet #8-mold patterns-i did this and it works well-another question-it seems that the molds are fastened to a floor framework somehow-battens or whatever-can a 4 foot piece of plywood do this -how did you set up to fair the molds off/-do your pics show this-i don't remember-i'll look again-i think i might make sense of it after all-thanks-hank

[kng]

hi.. yes Hank I have seen the woodenboat articles... and understand what you say.. but I think anyway that you will have a gap.. maybe you can fill it with epoxy... you have to think that the planks take a curvature when you land on every frame-land... and between the frames the plank goes out.. maybe if you take enough from the frames you won´t have that problem...
for the base you have to make a frame work.. in the lines layout you have a drawing showing that.. it´s on the right side it´s a small drawing... here are some images.. this will help I think to understand how the frames are fitted..
http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/kng/gs3.jpg http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/kng/gs4.jpg

[hank woll]

hi emiliano-i'm beginning to see the way you did it-i'm hoping not to have big gaps-i think i want to line out the molds and cut them from the plywood without doing the nail-transfer method stuff-i don't see a problem with that do you-i'll have more questionswhen i have gotten that done-thanks-hank

[hank woll]

hello again-well i just boughtr 2 sheets of 3/4 ply for molds-got to paint rhem white first anyway-i think i'll need to start the frames up from an edge a similar amount to allow for fastening to the strongback -do you agree this would work?-also-in the wb articles they said that their frames were 3 inches wide-my plans call for 2 inches-how wode are yours?-and i am making the full keel version so you know-talk to you later-so long for now-hank

[gert]

having built one small (16',3 strake per side) "glued plywood lapstrake" and about to start another, I would recomend staying with the beveled lands on the strakes, it's easy to do, especialy if you build a jig to fasten to your plane, you can even rough them out with a power plane using the same jig. I think all those wedges would be more work and the edge of the strake would seem to become huge :eek:

[hank woll]

hi again emiliano-i'm set to start making up frames i think-before i do i'll put a set of my measurements on her for you or chuckm to check out-tomorrow-also did you make the stem/stern inner posts using the offsets on the profile page and just add extra length so they would reach the strongback?-see you later-hank

[kng]

Yes Gert you are right.. I don´t know why I built that way... I think It was because a feeling of strenght but I really don´t know.. anyway It´s done.. I had built a shellback with that method and yes it was easy to do.. now I remember that I didn´t like very much how the inner edge looks without having a wider edge.. with the method I did I have all the inner edges the same with... only in the bilge they are bigger...

Hank I built the frames of 2" and made all the frames of 2" the 9 and 1 too...
Hank Its very hard too understand what you are saying.. try to speak to me like if you were talking to a 4 years old kid.. Im worring about my english.. smile.gif do you speak any kind of dialect? or it´s me?? yes ít´s me!!! but its ok we will understand each other..

if I understand you are talking about fastening the moulds to the strongback ?? I didn´t do that.. I have all the moulds well fitted with diagonals timbers so they dont move foward or back.. then I fastened the frames to the mouls and I left the blocks used to laminate the frames in the moulds.. and then when you make the strongback you will hold the frames and strongback together and will not move anymore..

I have seen many mistakes in the measurements in the woodenboat magazzine I don´t know why...

here some images... of mouls and frames.. and the beneadth frames that I told you that are wrong because the lack of wood.. you can see the blocks I was talking about... and how I made one mould inside the other.. http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/kng/0901_001.jpg http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/kng/1227_001.jpg

well.. cheers !!
Emiliano.

[chuckm]

Hank--greetings; In Oughtred's plans he gives you the full size mold lofting in quater size. They have the very important planking lines build in to the mold outlines. So when you draw the full size patterns you can draw it in-to your 3/4 inch plywood mold frames. I drew two sets one for making molds and frames , one for the wall. Besides looking real cool, (like we know what were doing???), there funtional for rechecking frames as you build them. Takes time. I promise pics this weekend. Emiliano just secured the frame-mold template to the strongback very well. Look at his pics of he frame-mold-floors all stacked against the wall, and you will see the all important plank lines. I think the boatbuilding term is splilling. Again in Oughtred's own words, "A fair line supersededs all offsets and markings".

[hank woll]

hi all-thanks emiliano-those pics help-as i thought you do need to spile the planks after the gaeboard-i have triedto generate some forms to mold the inner stem and sternpost but come up short especially on the stern measurements unless i am looking at the wrong place for my measurements-i'm going to give you the figures i came up with for the inner stem -i have all except the last one where it extends past station#2-i do not see any measurement to guide me there[dummy]-anyway here goes-please look at these-hopefully one of you still has your numbers to compare to-starting at the sheer-point one-then 24 inch wl is down 18 inches and over 7-8=8 inches-then 18 inch wl is down 6 and over 1-0-1 then 12 inch wl-down 6 and over1-5-4 inches then 6 inch wl-down 6 and over 1-11-8 then the dwl is down 6 and over 0-9-7fron station #1-then the -6 inch wl is down 6 inches and over 1-3-0 to find the outer stem point only-i see no measurement fot its depth at that point-the last measurement is not there as i see it-a measurement of 0-2-4 from ststion 2 is all i see-tell me i'm all wet or maybe i got lucky-i'm figuring the frame figures today -a bit tedious to multiply all those figure down to 1/32 of an inch times 4 but i'll try-thanks all for your patience with a neophyte-i never thought it would be so difficult-or maybe i'm making it so-i amdetermined to build her anyhow-i'll have more ? i'm sure -as i look at those triangular pieces below the frames and in some cases above i'm already scratching my head-and emiliano-your english is a hell of a lot better than my spanish-i learned a bit when i was in the republica dominicana in 1965-adios y tenquidado amigo-till later-thanks-hank

[hank woll]

hi again-i just finished figuring the ffset measurements for the molds-let me run one by you to see if it checks with yours-i'll need to findout what you used for a reference when setting themolds on the strongback-i see emiliano has a lot of room on his molds from the strongback to the sheer part of the frames-did you use the 24inch wl?-anyway-here goes-foe mold #3at sheer-37 1/4 inches-24 wl=36,18=34,12=31,6=27,dwl=21 1/4,-6wl=11 3/4,4 3/4 below -6wl=0 ---that's what i came up with trying to work to 1/32 of an inch-probably too fussy but whatever-i also am confused by the floors-do they differ a lot from keel to cb versions-the drawings are quite different and some views do not show them attached at all in cross section-oh well enough for now i hope i don't drive you all nuts with my dithering-thanks-hank-i need to get a scanner so i can send sketches etc out-i think it would be a better way to get it right-for now-hank

[kng]

Hi hank !! if I understand well.. you are making the mold lines with the 1/4 scale drawings and taking measurements from there right?? well why don´t you loft with the offsets ?? I think it is more precise and easy... for example at the sheer I have 37" 1/8 instead of 37" 1/4 as you say... If I were you I would loft from the offsets...
I will wait your answer to see if I really understand what you are saying...
saludos !!
Emiliano.

[hank woll]

hi emiliano-yea i am using the measurements on page 8-if i use the offsets as on page one they are missing a few measurements at least on mold#1 at the bottom of the list of measurements-there is no number of inches to get you to the centerline for a zero -will you please check my measurements to see if i am correct with those i posted-also-did you line up the molds using one waterline or another?-perhaps all set to the 24 inch w.l.?-and i want to get the stern post inner measurements-i think perhapsi can use the scale and my calipers and measure from one of the station lines just as well-trying to get those any other way seems impossible-how did you get them?>-did you look at my figures for the inner stem?-are they correct-or at least close-i measure to 1/32 of an inch which is probably not really needed for a boat when a fair line is what you want-please reply as soon as you can-i'm gettin some nice ash ready today and i'm already getting ahead of myself-i hope i'm not driving you nuts-thanks-hank

[chuckm]

Hank; I'll chech my project book. Start one. I remember a mistake I made with the inner stem. First you have to loft down the outer stem, thats the only measurements he gives you. Once you have that curve you work inward. He posted the inner stem measuremnets as a side note somewhere. Also don't make the asumption that all the lofting grid boxes are the same size. The distance between station 1& stat 2 is not the same as stat 2& 3. Have you read every thing you can get your hands on about lofting? Vaistes, Building small wooden boats by ? I forget his name. Start with a white painted clean 4x8 plywood panel and set up you grid. Once the "light goes on" its easy, before that your lost.

[gert]

I corresponed with Mike Pilato before he passed away re lofting of GS; he said there were no errors on the offsets and he complimented Ian on their accuracy.
We need to hear from the guys who built "Saturday Morning".

How many sailing Grey Seals are there in the world?

[ 01-09-2006, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: gert ]

[chuckm]

Just that one i quess. Gert your at it right? It's a long project time build.

[hank woll]

hi again emiliano et al--i just started to mess up again-in lining out the molds on plywood-the 24 inch wl is about 18 inches from the sheer isn't it-i started to draw molds one and two and they sure looked funny-[the dots did anyway-]then i remembered that i had measured on sheet 2 from sheer to 24 and it seems to be about 18 incges-please correct me if i'm wrong-yes emiliano i did paint the ply white -and i agree it is easier to use the offsets rather than the 1/4 scale lines -it also helps if you are using the correct sheet for the keelboat if that is what you are building-i think i'm going to turn the ply the long way in order to have enough to line the molds up corectly-i'm assuming that you need to have some waterline on all molds at the same level -is that right?-please let me know before i get totally frustrated-i'll build this boat if it takes 3 years-and yes i read vaitses-and mcintosh and gardner and a new one on glued lap-i haven't got oughtred's book yet-thanks all for letting me ask questions and gripe-oh i'm still in a tizzy about those almost triangulat 2 inch floor-are the only in the keelboat-i don't see them in the wb articles on that grey seal-yes it would be nice to hear from some more builders-thanks-hank [LIST]

[kng]

Hank lets start from the beggining... first of all draw in your plywood (your mold plywood) the DWL, the -6, 6, 12, 18, and 24 WL, then the Center Line... and you will have all to draw your moulds... now.. lets make a station.. any station you want... for example the number 3# as you talk about it before.. all the measurements you take are from CENTER LINE and DWL, so the Center Line and DWL must be centered and in the case of DWL at the same height as you say before...

now the station 3# lets make the sheer point you have to look the offset number at heighs from DWL, it is 2-4-6, you have to make a mark there... then go to HALF BREADTHS FROM CL, that is 3-1-3 from CL, cross the measurements and make an X, there you will have the sheer point... then you have to do the same with all the Wl... you take the height from DWL of the WL 24 and make a mark... then you take the HALF BREADTHS FROM CL... of WL 24 and you mark it... and you will have an other point of the station 3# is that clear ?? I will suggest you to forget the Diagonals and the buttock lines... I haven´t used them...
You have to forget about the measurements from sheer to WL 24... by now.. you can check this later..

you have to think the process like the game naval battle ?? do you know it ? you take A1 - D10 you have to draw paralell lines to reach that point.. here is the same... I hope this helps..

one more... the Water Lines -6, 6, 12, 18, and 24 are from DWl I think you know this..

Hank it tooks me 4 years and Im still building her ;) so take it easy.. and you will !!

in the next image I will add two images maybe will help..
cheers..
Emiliano

[kng]

http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/kng/loft_2.jpg http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/kng/loft1_2.jpg

[kng]

I was reading again what I had written and when you take the WATER LINES 6, 12, 18 and 24 and so... you will not need the heights because you already have them... I don´t have the plans here.. but I think it is that way... you only need to take the HALF BREADTHS FROM CL measurements and intersect with the right WATER LINE for example 24WL that is 24 inches from DWL and the other measurement is what you have at that station on that WL...
cheers !!
Emiliano.

[hank woll]

hi emiliano-tanks-i have found the lines i need from the offsets-yes it is easier-i am ok until i get to the keelson area where he has figures for the rabbet and keel-i can't figure these at all i'm so dense-and some go to lower waterlines as well don't they-i found soon enough why the saturday morning fellows have split molds-its impossible to get them out of 4x8 ply in any way except to do splits and rejoin them-i think you used larger pieces of plywoo from looking at your pics-anyway-i need to know if it makes any difference where you start the frame offsets on the mold-i think as long as the sheer is in the same place the frames will be lined up on the strongback ok-tell me how you did it please-thanks-hank

[kng]

Hi hank !! well first of all.. yes you will have to join two sheets of plywood, to make the molds..

make a baseline... for example 36" from DWL like the Wl you have, these will be your baseline for all the molds and all must be aligned with this.. take care of the stern and stem I don´t remember the right height of this..

Rabbet: you have to know that the rabbet is where the planking reachs you won´t have planking out of this line... so this line is the limit between your keel, stem and stern and the keelson and inner stem and stern... for the molds you have to see only the rabbet... and later when you have the keelson you will have to take off the molds the width of the keelson.. understand? because the width of the keelson goes inside the hull from the rabbet line...

remember like chuckm said... that the distance between stations aren´t the same you have the measurements in your layout at the lower right corner, these is very important but in the next stage when you line up your molds...

about how you draw your molds.. you can draw where ever you want the molds but later you will have to align all the molds to the DWL.

I would like to see an image of the first station !!
Emiliano.

[kng]

Gert I know about the Saturday Morning GS, Mike Pilato´s GS, an other one at sell in independece waters, Mine... now Chuckm and Hank... there will be more for sure.. but I really don´t know.. it will be wonderfull if we can contact to share experiences about her sailings and so... about a while I tried to contact James Wagner again but I didn´t have response..
cheers !!
Emiliano.

[gert]

Re frame placement.

The frames are not all on the same side of their station!

1 thru 5 are forward of their station; 6 thru 9 are behind their station.

[chuckm]

Also may want to consider not cutting of the the frames exactly as lofted. I did. Let them be oversized; on the mold pattern station. when you get to that step of making top sheer ribard, bend a batten against the frame and mark and cut that line. Will avoid shimming in. These are things you learn on previous boat projects. I did't. First build.

[hank woll]

hi all-i'm finallt straight on where to set my lines for the molds-i'll leave 6 inches at the edge then find my 24 inch wl since i thinl all have it except maybe #1and #9 and i'll do my measuring from there then index that wl when i set up-i guess i could use the dwl as emiliano says he did -i''l see -at least i'm ok with that part-yes gert i know now i'll need to butt two pieces of ply to get the width of many molds-i'm going to lay them out and cut like the saturday morning guys did-i'll rejoin and realign them afterward-i'll get more mileage from $40 sheets that way-has anyone got an idea on what to do with those meassurements for rabbet and keel-i know what they refer to and that i'll plane the keelson to fair into the frames -but???-i'm going to leave extra on the lower part of the molds anyway pending a way to figure what needs to be done there-thanks-i'm off to do some more measuring-hank

[gert]

Assuming 4'x8' plywood the moulds will fit inside a sheet, a total of seven sheets are req'd with moulds 2&9, 1&3 being nested.

[chuckm]

Emiliano;good day. In re-reading this post I came to the realization that your frames are larger than that designed by Oughtred and the builders of saturday morning. He describes a CB version, which does not need the deep notch-rabbit cuts; as does the keel version.I see why you adapted it that way. The CB version starts with a flat garboard plank that can lay faily flat to the keelson. Are your frames @ 3 x2 inch? With the 2 inches being the thickness. If so I may need to add additional laminates now. You mentioned somthing about having to add thickness to your frames.

[hank woll]

hello again-i'm starting to see what gertmeant about the dwl-i'm now convinced that it is what i need to use for the mold layout-all frames except #1 have it-i'm gonna need more ply to make the molds anyway-i'm doing them as the saturday morning guys did-i don't see a problem with that as long as i rejoin the 2 sides correctly-any advice on that method?i see that there is quite a difference between the keel and the cb versions as far asa the frames/molds go-i'm using my dividers to measure up from the dwl to the top of the frame to get its sheer height-is that the way to do it?-also-can you use dividers to get those marks for the plank lands and laps as shown-i'm gonna measure out the inner stem and sternposts and i'll post those figures here to see if i'm on track-thanks fellas-later-hank

[hank woll]

hi gert-i meant to add that the pictures showing how iain set the molds up is showing them backwards from the conventional method as you said of the forward frames aft of the station line and the aft ones forward of the line-any idea why he is showing it that way-or is that a misprint?-see you later-hank

[gert]

sheet 6 of Iain's drawings clearly show frames 1 thru 5 forward and 6 thru 9 aft of stations, this IS "conventional" and its so the frames can be beveled to follow the plank line (prior to planking of coarse).

[kng]

Hi Chuckm, I built the frames as Iain says... this is 2" wide by 1 3/16" (this are all the laminations together) but later I had to add an extra lamination, I did this when the frames where at the molds.. I would prefer to have done this when laminating the frames.. it would have been easier... I will copy what Iain says at point 1. "FRAMES 2" wide x 1-3/16" (50 x 30mm). Three laminations of full 3/8" (10mm). Frames 1 and 9 ar sided 1 1/2" (40mm).
Blocks are screwed to the moulds, and frames laid up around them. Frames need not to be joggled to fit against the planks between laps; but this can be done by adding an extra lamination outside the mould edge, and timming it at the fairing-up stage. Or, wedges are added as necessary. Upper ends are notched into clamp-- "

here he explains about the edges or extra lamination I was talking about.. I think it´s better the extra lamination... the edges are an ugly work.. believe me..

Chuckm you are right about the CB version and the keel version... I had to extend much more the frames at the garboard and the first planks because of the inverse curve of the hull.. a good method to realise this is to draw straight lines from lap to lap marks at the moulds...

what version are you building chuckm?? images?

well cheers !! Emiliano.

[chuckm]

Emiliano; again thankyou for your help. Keel version. My frames are complete, they look excellent to me and match very well to lofted station molds. My next step is to "lock" the frames to stations using blocks and clear plastic tape technique. This would be a great time to add extra thickness to frames before building to strongback. I'm I understanding you to mean just frames 1 and 9 need extra laminate build-up? That would make sense to me, they have the greatest curve to bend. Also you would laminate these frames so that the edge is outside of the station; correct? My computer at home is very, poor, slow, need to find a way to transfer images here at work. A much faster line.

[hank woll]

hello folks-back to gert-i guess i may have not seen the picture that way-if the frames are forward of the line at 1-5 then the molds are aft of the line-thanks i'll look again-ans emiliano-wouldn't it be better to have added a lamination inside the frame rather than beyond the mold?-will that affect the planks in some way?-just a thought-hank

[chuckm]

Emiliano,Gert,Hank: As I see Emiliano's building technique-design, he's beveling the frame and did not bevel the planks at all. Therefore to lay the planks as flat as you can you have to make deep cuts into the frame. It work great for him. I believe a 3/4 inch minimal bevel too the plank could reduce some of the deep cuts into the frames. But how can you argue with success.

[hank woll]

hi all-egads-i get something new everytime i re-read or look at these posrs-i now see that the fremes on some stations go right across in a sort of "U" and those floor sections are fit under-thanks for those pics emiliano-i also signed up for greg rossel's lofting course in july at wb-but i'd like to get a jump on this hull before that-in any case couls someone please look at these measurements for inner stem and tell me if i'm close to right or all wet-the uppermost point is 17" above the 24" wlthen the 24"wlpoint is 8" aftof the stem line-the 18" wl point is 12 and 1/8" aft of the stem line-the 12" wl is 17 1/2" aft of stem linethe 6" wl is 1/2"aft of station #1and the dwl point crosses about half way to station #2 and the line crosses the -6" wlabout 2" forward of station#2-make any sense-please try to look at these and see what i need to fix-thanks a million-hank

[gert]

I lofted this on acad so it's relatily easy to check (please feel free to contradict me if I got this wrong) so here goes:

the inner stem highest point is 17 5/8 off the 24"WL.
the 8" is correct
the 12 1/8 is correct
the 17 1/2 is correct
the 1/2 is actualy 9/16
it crosses WL aft of station 1, 9 13/16 not "half way"
it crosses the -6 WL 1 1/2" aft not 2" forward of station 2.

Me thinks this is correct

[ 01-16-2006, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: gert ]

[hank woll]

hi gert-thank you-my half way was just a bit more than 9" -i guess i'm not so far off afterall-is the program you used expensive?-as i said i see now that the 2" floors go under the frames-all 6 of the 9 frames?-i'm still having trouble seeing how it all goes together down near the keel-a cross sectioal sketch would be really helpful-thanks again-hank

[hank woll]

hello again gert-i think i need a better way to scale my measurements -as in what are the odd measurements in 1/16" increments on a 1" = 1 foot scale-any help?-source?-math is obviously not one of my better points-thanks-hank

[hank woll]

hi again-oh oops-where did wl 12" go gert?-and chuckm-i did find a mentor and then some-i called a man who belongs to a woodworkers association that i belong to in rochester-he referred me to greg rossel whom he knows-i called and he did give me some good advice-very nice of him-also this man said that he'd be happy to help me get grounded well with the plans-great stuff-i also found [by myself] where the rabbet is-to share this with you-check sheet #7-the diagram 0f station 6&8 at the lower right-it was looking at me all the time-i'm learning-i'll do a mockup of one station to see more-good night or evening wherever you are and thanks-hank

[hank woll]

hi all-gert-can i get you to check my figures for the stern post if i put them on?-emiliano-where r u?-chuckm -have you gotten any pics yet?-regards-hank

[kng]

Hi Hank how is it going ?? what are you doing?
Emiliano.

[gert]

try me

[hank woll]

hi gang-i've been busy working both on the molds and to make money-thanks gert i will as soon as i can -and where was your 12" figure for the stm inner?-hi emiliano-i'm here -going slow-learning more lofting from a local builder-how is your boat going-by the way-i drew out the rudder and i find no mention of it in the specifications that i gat with the plans-did you?-maybe wb can generate the thickness etc-regards-hank

[gert]

I edited the 12" in, in previous reply.

[ 01-26-2006, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: gert ]

[chuckm]

Well Emiliano since this post is still going; how about another question? Im fitting my frames to the frames, locking them down to blocks and clear taping the stations for glueing protection. In rereading Oughted's notes/specs he make's a one sentence remark about if notching out the stem and stern and not laying out the planks flat on the first garboard plank, ( something like that) add an additional laminate to the frames. So this would be the time to add additionl laminates to all the frames, correct? You are to "oversized the frames out over the stations, correct? Is a 1/4 inch enough. Do all the frames need this? www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/p997122bfi07b009f021145cd01af38/f0708905.jpg.thu wwwimagestatio.com/album/?id=2114655595

[kng]

Hank, take the width from the centerboard version for the rudder... the cheeks are 1" and the rudder 2" there are no more spec. than that if I remember well.. I don´t have the plans here..

Chuckm I thin 1/4" will be ok at amidships or may be a little more.. but if you scarf the planks will be ok...
at stern you will need a little more... but If you have the frames already built test with a strip and look how much gap you have under between the strip and the frame..

cheers !! Emiliano.

[gert]

Can I assume this is the official Grey Seal construction thread? Not to hijack it but...

Frames (CB version) # 1,5 & 9 are in two parts right? Separated by the inner stems and CB trunk respectivly. What holds them together?
Is a bulkhead at #1 the most practical? (#9 has one) [and yes, we have finaly started]

[chuckm]

gert: I first completed all the frames , then went to building floors out of 3" oak. Using a batten , on the plywood floor I drew in the appropriate curve, then transfered to cardboard stencil. Transfer cut out to thick oak stock, or do what Emiliano did; he laminated mahogony planks together. He's down in great boatbuilding timber world. I epoxyed the oak floors to ash frames. Smith Co. sells a tropical-wood expoxy that will glule oak or teak.

[gert]

We will be building in fir primarily.
What kind of spring back are you getting and are you staying wthe the speced 3/8" laminations? I'm planning on 1/4".

[ 01-30-2006, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: gert ]

[chuckm]

Yea Gert; somone posted awhile back explaining his reason for going with the thinner cuts. They work easier. Im using ash at @ 4-5 mm to 1/4 inch. Frame # 1 I used thicker cuts, it's a straighter bent, also staggered the laminates on frame 3,4, and 5; Thats a long piece of wood to cut that thin. I set a up a jiglike table to hold the board in place and used the "gripper" keeps your hand away from the blade. I just bought a old 1946 Delta unisaw, but it needs work and reconditioning. Im hoping it will make additional thin wooden slat-cuts easier. I used a cheapie china built direct drive motor. Did use the Freud ripper blade. Its not that expensive and it will make a cheap tool look good. Yea no springback with 6-8 laminates. Do not over clamp, some of my best frames were the early edition ones, when i only had around 35 or so C-clamps. I was not over clamping then, I only had so many and had to space them adequately. Once I had around 60 C-clamps I used them all and over clamped the process. The over clamped frames failed and delaminated. Learn and do. Re-learn and re-do.

[gert]

I too learned about over clamping on the last boat.

Is there any reason why I should be concerned about using Douglas fir for laminating the frames and stems? Strength, screw holding ability etc? I am over sizing them by about 1/4" in both dimensions.

[ 02-01-2006, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: gert ]

[hank woll]

hi all-well gert i managed to get the figures at last-i'm also lofting all frame sections up full size from keel to about wl +6 and i'm seeing a somewhat small cross section at #8-granted it is 2" at the outside when the planking is planed to the outer edge of the inner stem but is this correct-??maybe you have your lofting handy to check-anyway here are the aft inner stem figures i generated-sheer=1-7-4,24"wl=1-6-7,18"wl=1-5-0,12"wl=1-1-7,6"wl=0-9-6,dwl=0-4-2,-those are fromsta #9 aft to stern-and then from sta 8 to aft are -6"wl=1-6-6,-12"wl=0-11-4,,,i think that's it-please correct me if i'm wrong-also did you get my previous about wl 12" on the forward stem?-thanks alot gert-regards-hank-p.s.-where is everyone-busy building?-regards-hank

[hank woll]

hi again gert-sorry i can't find your edit-inthe case of thickness-i'm usin quartersawn ash at 5/16" and it bends fine-i used a piece for a batten on the molds-also less laminations to glue up-if you want to save a bit of wood get a matsu****a blade-check their catalog-site-for the thin blade-it's been advertised in wb as well-good deal-expensive but so is wood-1/4 "would be fine if you want more glue up-i don't have plans her now-i'll look at the cb version to see if i can help you-have you seen the wb articles in #128-130-they might shed some light for you-and i wanted to ask emiliano if that picture he posted of frames set up was from the stern-regards-hank

[chuckm]

Guy's I'm the newby, and well What do I know: but, I like the old joke about boat-builders regarding their concern for accuracy. The fine wooden instrument craftsman is accurate to 1/32, the cabinet maker is accurate to 1/16, general contruction tradesman down to 1/4 inch. Then there's the boat-builder. He's accurate to the next boat. Hank: if the line is looking good, well I'm going with it. Regarding Douglas fir, it's better rot resistancy than ash, I just had access to ash at an inexpensive cost and Oughtred recommended ash for it's bending qualities. If you can work it in fir-go for it. I was either going to start using long-leaf pine(which I can get locally on a limited amount or Cypress next for the keelson. The plans call for three planks of 3/8 inch stock planed-scarfed down to the stem. Emiliano has a good pic of the assembly on his main site. I copied everything he's printed and taken a magnifing glass too it. I'm just trying to use the best I can get locally at best cost. Did any of my earlier pic's show up? Im not great at posting yet.

[gert]

just unclamped frame#1, 6 layers of 1/4" fir NO spring back smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

I use Industrial Formulators - G2; 90 minute open time and clamped for 48 hrs, same as "cold cure" but double the open time.

Hank the 12 was good

[ 02-03-2006, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: gert ]

[chuckm]

Go man go , feels good; right!!

[chuckm]

I'll try this web page (http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/p997122bf44f07b009f021145cd01af38/f0708905.jpg.thu)

[chuckm]

Finally some pics of Gray Seal Keel version frames. Now if I can just remember how I copied and pasted them http:// http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/p2b1d0dab70ed76b2b40a6bdeef4de245/f0708864.jpg http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/pd395dbc47fb86510ec6cf26f240d99a6/f0702791.jpg http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/pdf5de06b11dfe3068763c1cf7b72a526/f0702795.jpg

[hank woll]

hello gang-glad to see you all started-i'm just plodding along but will get set up soon as i have another session with my local boat builder to check a few things-gert-it seems as though there are case logs and floors#10-yo set that #5 frame in well-a strong setup- and there are floors ai #1 and i think #9 as well-they fay pretty well on the stems also-i find #8 a bit skinny as i lofted it-if you full size a section gert you will feel fine about it -try#5 and see-chuck-i'm sorry you are so far away-i have an older delts tsble saw-an *" one that i bought in the 60's and used it to build a lot of cabinets etc-i bought a 10"jet a few years ago and tried to sell the old saw and had no takers-it's in my garage-you could have it for 50$-oh well-anyway-if any of you would like a turned knob as shown on the plans for your tiller let me know-i just laminated the tiller cuz i was at a slow point and turned the knob and stem out of some mahogany i had -let me know and i'd be happy to turn them out and send em-i'd like to be a small part of help with your boats-regards-hank

[gert]

Hank:
I assume by those #s that your building the keel version.
Off the #9 station to aft inner stem outer face I got: 19 7/16, 18 3/4, 17, 13 7/8, 9 3/4, 3 15/16.

I lofted the CB version so your #s off station 8 mean nothing to me. If you are building the CB version I have a problem.

[gert]

I just glued up frame #3; I'm gonna do em in order, bow to stern.

Should I be prefinishing them (clear varnish) before setting them up?

[hank woll]

hi all-i would like to get an estimate on how many sheets of ply are needed to plank gs up-emiliano would probably know as he's done it-any help?-thanks-hank

[hank woll]

hi all-i'm trying toreach gert-it seems as if the old thread got lost-i'll try the other on i found as well-can you show me a drawing or good pic of the jig you usedfor cleaning up the frames after gluing gert?-i think it would be good to try that as hand or belt might not be so good-thanks-hank

[gert]

You talkin about this thing?
http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=17031&highlight=gert

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid204/p558cc5fa37b20c45f406cce63b400db4/ef58b68a.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/173/383155823_6e20115b0d.jpg