in defense of ring nails/ attn Norman B

[Ellis Rowe]

On a different thread Norman was railing against the use of ring nails so adamantly that I decided to post my first new topic. What's wrong with ring nails? I find them to be a reliable fastener when used for the appropriate job. A couple of examples: With a flat bottomed countersink they are much less likely to split the hood ends than a flathead screw. Also fastening thin plywood such as 6mm to sawn frames, chines,etc. is much more effective with ring nails. There's just not much room here for the deeper tapered countersink needed for a screw. Last summer at WoodenBoat school a couple of us were nailing the 6mm Sapele plywood to the chine of a Simmons Skiff when a tourist sidled up and asked,"why are you using nails." From his tone, I knew that he was really saying, shouldn't you be using screws? He seemed to be satisfied with my explanation, and said " yeah I guess that's why they make those nails."

[Bob Smalser]

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6771586/89185165.jpg

No argument from me...'cept in applications that are spose to be repairable without the big Sawzall.

In the frame replacement pictured, the nontraditional construction "improvements" made a straightforward 1-day job take three days.

[ 03-14-2005, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[L.W. Baxter]

nontraditional construction "improvements" made a straightforward 1-day job take three days.
Had to wait for the battery to recharge, huh Bob?

I like the kind I plug into the little holes, more reliable that way. Plus, it's more "traditional". tongue.gif

[yorgie]

I'm hearing you loud and clear Bob.The hardwood(birch?)tophalf stem on my 19' sailboat had rotted and those ringnails are a pain.The sawzall blade keeps getting crunched by the opposite side planking.

[Ron Williamson]

Countersunk ring nails are practically impossible to get out without trashing the planking.
R

[Norman Bernstein]

Jeeeez, my post about ring nails was SATIRE!

Actually, I HAVE used ring-shanked nails in the past... but my current project documented here (http://www.marisystems.com/ellipticat) doesn't use any, it's strip planked and glassed.

[Gary Bergman]

For all of those who haven't a use for ringshanks, kindly send them my way; I luv' 'em, and they are waay easier to use than screws..grab hammer, hit forcefully, install bung.... :D

[ssor]

At the other extreme I once found a fragment of lapstrake planking on the shore in Long Island that was fastened with a #6 flat head machine screw, a washer and a hex nut, all in brass. I think that the builder must have used what he had on hand.

[ 03-15-2005, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: ssor ]

[Ellis Rowe]

Norm, I suspected as much later, but at the time the satire went over my head. In the past I have replaced planks by drilling the heads off the nails, and wedging the planks off from the inside. Bob, whats your point? All my straightforward one day jobs take at least three days!

[JimD]

All my straightforward one day jobs take at least three days! You wouldn't be speaking satirically, would you? :D

[Thad Van Gilder]

I myself only use ring nails on cheap boats that are not intended to live long enough to need repairs.

-Thad

[dmede]

Harry Bryan reccomends using bronze ring nails for certain parts of his Fiddelhead canoe. I asked him about it since I was inclined to use screws instead. He commented that screws would be fine but he called for ring nails where the parts would be held together with epoxy since the ring nails offer a cheaper way to fix the parts together while the glue cures.

In this boat it's only at the sheer (sheer strake to sheer clamp, epoxied and nailed every 2 or 4 inches I think).

Seems reasonable to use ring nails where they are only to hold parts while glueing up with very permamnent epoxy anyway.

dave

[ 03-15-2005, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: dmede ]

[holzbt]

SSOR- The bolts and nuts were original fastenings on Thompson boats from Cortland, NY. It is even a selling point in some period literature as being much easier to cure leaking laps by tightening the bolts as opposed to hardening up on rivets.

[ssor]

Holzbt and Donn, Thanks. It makes sense, far better than clenched nails. This fragment was probably cedar not more than 1/4 inch thick and the screw would have still been usable. This was out near Orient.
Donn, your pic only came through as a line.

[Donn]

Originally posted by Donn:
Like this Thompson, in Holzbt's shop:

<img src= "http://www.ennui.net/~donn/boats/thompson.jpg" width= "768" height= "512">

Look closely, and you'll see hundreds of bronze nuts on bolts through the planks.edited to correct HTML error. :eek:

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by Ellis Rowe:
Bob, whats your point? All my straightforward one day jobs take at least three days!;)

My point is repairability.

That plywood and epoxy dory had everything epoxied together...even the fasteners. Might as well had been nailed, as the frames all had to be cut out.

On a pine-planked dory I coulda ground off the cheek rivets, cleaned the putty outta the plank-to-frame screws, and had those frames outta there much, much quicker than dealing with screws, epoxy fillets, bondo fillets and two layers of fabric and goo.

[ssor]

What an incredable amount of patience and attention to detail is represented in that picture, both in the original work and in the repairs. I think that driving nails in that would be a complete disregard for the men that built it. Like fine furniture, sometimes I see repairs that were done by shoemakers.

[Paul Maselli]

Bronze ring nails certainly have there place in boatbuilding.

They are well suited to being used to lay down a laminated deck structure that is being glued and covered in fabric. Laminated deck beams will also benefit for the same reason. The added integrity of hundreds if not thousands of bronze pins in shear throughout a deck is immeasurable.

Certainly screws will do the same, but in a deck structure that is being built as a monocoque assembly, one that won't be taken apart in the customary fashion for repair, the added cost and labor to use bronze screws is in my opinion a waste of hard earned cash and labor.

Any project large or small needs proper manangement of both of these resources to succeed.

The key here is a alteration in methods without a trade off of a noble metal. Far better to use bronze ring nails than a lesser substitute of Stainless or less.

TheMobileBoatwright

[bainbridgeisland]

The guys I Apprenticed under learned the Shipwright trade in the 20's. They taught me the following mantra: Only screw if you can't nail; Only bolt if you can't screw.

Many of the commercial boats I worked on in the 70's were nailed together. Though some were near 50-years old the galv Iron fasteners were reasonably sound. Seems to me there is nothing wrong with nailing if done right and if the right nail is used. When refastening was needed, we would refasten nailed boats with nails. (Though good quality iron, cut boat nails were hard to find even then.)

By the way, an Iron boat nail is very difficult to remove, as are screws, when boats get old enough to need refastening. Generally they are left in place when refastening. These fasteners hardly come out any easier when doing repair work.

This brings us to the question of using ring-shank nails. I have rarely used them. When I did, they seemed to work fine. When planking, I don't think they would be needed except on rare occasions. I guess I do not understand the controversy.

[pipefitter]

I used SB ring shanks in between the SB screws on the bottom of my Simmons. I got this from a man I knew that used to build shrimp boats and other fishing craft. He claimed that one fastener helps the other in this way and you dont have so many nail heads to cut off in the event of a repair. Using Screws near the edges so you can back them out and get a pry bar started easier when you pop off the ring shank heads.

[Tom Lathrop]

Not to hijack the thread but I have a question about ring shank nails. I've used galvanized ring shank nails for nailing dock and deck boards. They hold very well until they are broken loose and then are extracted very easily. I expect this is because the first movement breaks the fibers holding them in place and from that point the grip is much relaxed. Once broken loose, they are easier to remove than regular smooth shank nails.

Spiral shank nails, like those meant for siding on a house, seem to hold just as well and are very difficult to remove since they do not tear wood fibers.

Anyone ever hear of these being used for boatbuilding or if they are made in shorter lengths or noble metals?