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View Full Version : In the interest of a real gun safety thread...



ishmael
01-13-2009, 12:04 PM
...and of taking some of the heat off Phillip, how about discussing these I posted on another thread.

A few simple rules would go a long way toward reducing accidental gun violence, but if people don't learn them they'll never help:

1) Never assume a gun is unloaded. Always check, even if you just laid it down a few minutes ago. If you don't know how the action works, ask someone who does.

2) Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. Never point a gun, even if you are sure it's unloaded, at something you don't want to shoot. An addendum is to always know you've got a safe backdrop.

3) Keep guns out of the hands of young, unsupervised children or untutored adults. What measures you take for this will depend on your circumstances. Failing to do so should be criminal negligence. If you live alone, and someone breaks in and steals a gun, that's not negligence, but if a kid who's part of the family, or a family friend, finds a gun and cartridges in the closet and hurts someone with it, that is.

4) Keep the gun in clean, good working order. If you don't know how, learn, or find a qualified friend/gunsmith who does.

I'm sure other have some to add, but if people took those measures...

Joe (SoCal)
01-13-2009, 12:06 PM
Gun safety is an OXYMORON

Phillip Allen
01-13-2009, 12:07 PM
Thanks Jack but don't worry about it...these guys haven't seen "heat" and I have...I can take it better than anyone here (likely)

Joe (SoCal)
01-13-2009, 12:09 PM
http://www.relentlessdefense.com/graphics/gunshot1.gif

ishmael
01-13-2009, 12:15 PM
Phillip,

I'm not worried about it. There are gun morons mucking up your threads, so let's have a real discussion and ignore them. What do people think of the rules I posted?

I'm not nearly as up on guns as some here, but those are the rules I learned when I was twelve, and I adhere to them to this day, religioiusly. Let's talk about it rather than let the harassment become the subject.

Phillip Allen
01-13-2009, 12:16 PM
so Joe...is your example of a gun accident (possible avoidable by proper safety measures) or a deliberate killing?

Phillip Allen
01-13-2009, 12:17 PM
Phillip,

I'm not worried about it. There are gun morons mucking up your threads, so let's have a real discussion and ignore them. What do people think of the rules I posted?

I'm not nearly as up on guns as some here, but those are the rules I learned when I was twelve, and I adhere to them to this day, religioiusly. Let's talk about it rather than let the harassment become the subject.

I doubt it will be easy...folks like Joe attach their identity to being able to bully others and will not relent easily

Uncle Duke
01-13-2009, 12:19 PM
If you live alone, and someone breaks in and steals a gun, that's not negligence,
I would suggest that it's only not negligence if you are properly storing the gun. If you are leaving it on the kitchen counter, then it is negligence.
Opens the question, of course, as to what 'proper' storage is....

Joe (SoCal)
01-13-2009, 12:20 PM
Wouldnt it be wonderful if I was a crack addict psyco bully trying to break into Phillip "Awww Shucks" house - geeeeee I bet the gun nuts get a chubby over that though eh ;)

Phillip Allen
01-13-2009, 12:21 PM
I would suggest that it's only not negligence if you are properly storing the gun. If you are leaving it on the kitchen counter, then it is negligence.
Opens the question, of course, as to what 'proper' storage is....



this fits with the often stated excuse given by thieves..."if he didn't want it stolen then he souldn't have bought it"

ishmael
01-13-2009, 12:21 PM
"I doubt it will be easy"

Sure it will, simply don't respond and discuss the topic at hand. For example, on one of your threads I took issue with your idea that with kids around you didn't need to keep guns secured because you taught them and whenever they wanted to shoot they could always ask. Depends on the age and the kid, but in general that didn't seem wise. Explain, refute, let's talk about gun safety rather than Joe or Milo.

Phillip Allen
01-13-2009, 12:25 PM
I suppose it would depend on your notion of "secured" which I consider a slipery slope...

I keep em in a closet...that is secured by my defination...I don't care about the definations of the fikle finks of forfeture

Uncle Duke
01-13-2009, 12:30 PM
I keep em in a closet.
I would have no objection to saying that keeping them in a locked gun safe would be the definition of 'secure', in terms of judging negligence or not.
I'm sure that there are people who believe that is overkill, etc., but I'd be OK with that.
I read someplace, recently, about a guy who had an RFID chip implanted in his hand - the safe wouldn't open unless it was his hand on the latch, but would open immediately then. Nice idea.

Phillip Allen
01-13-2009, 12:38 PM
I knew about that Andrew...I would consider it a mitigation of my rights ($2000 worth of safes to keep a $200 gun is an obvious ploy to limit ownership to the wealthy)

Uncle Duke
01-13-2009, 12:42 PM
The article about RFID access to a handgun safe is here (http://boingboing.net/2008/10/14/video-of-a-guy-impla.html), along with a video about the process. I'd consider that to be 'safe' storage which does not limit instant access by the owner.

I implanted a RFID chip in my hand. I injected the chip myself from supplies bought on the internet. This tag is readable from up to 2 inches from my hand. I am currently using it to open my handgun safe for instant access. I can have a gun in hand in one second in blackness without fumbling with buttons or codes.

htom
01-13-2009, 12:53 PM
Joe, it looks like your pictures are mislabeled, confusing the entry and exit wounds.

Uncle Duke
01-13-2009, 12:55 PM
$2000 worth of safes to keep a $200 gun is an obvious ploy to limit ownership to the wealthyI hear what you're saying, but (1) I think the ordinary person doesn't have to spend nearly that much and (2) I have no problem with the idea that there is a 'cost of ownership' for something which should be protected from theft or indiscriminate use by the non-owner.
To spend $600-$800 once in your lifetime to keep your guns safe doesn't seem too burdensome.
Just my opinion, of course....:D

stevebaby
01-13-2009, 12:59 PM
this fits with the often stated excuse given by thieves..."if he didn't want it stolen then he souldn't have bought it"You've known that many thieves, to be so familiar with their motives?
Pray, do tell....

Uncle Duke
01-13-2009, 01:18 PM
Milo:

The paranoia reveals itself, the levels and layers and lies and half-truths come to the surface. Firearm safety apparently has some limits to what is considered by many to be true safety in Phillip's fevered mind.
Milo, the fact that Phillip and I might have different opinions about what are reasonable expectations for gun safety behavior does not mean that there are lies and half-truths and paranoia involved.
Just different opinions.

ishmael
01-13-2009, 01:28 PM
As far as the "secured" issue goes. Once you've breached my door uninvited you are a felon. I consider a gun secure, de facto -- other issues such as access by family and friends in abeyance -- if it's inside my home.

But I can understand the argument for gun safes. I have one in Michigan, which is locked whenever I'm away for extended periods. But I don't lock it when I go to the corner store. If someone breaks in and steals from me, what I had every right to consider secure by right of 'the castle', negligence?

Getting into a gray area, seems to me.

Uncle Duke
01-13-2009, 01:31 PM
Milo, I'm not calling 'bull****' on anyone just because we have different opinions.
It is nice, though, that you've moved away from your previous position that there is no such thing as gun safety, and that you are now acknowledging that there is.
All that's left is to have a reasonable discussion about what "gun safety" means - which is exactly where this thread started.

Uncle Duke
01-13-2009, 01:36 PM
He stays out of it, I'll stay out of it.
So it's not the issue which interests you, it's something personal?

Uncle Duke
01-13-2009, 01:53 PM
Curls three fingers under, extends index finger forward, points thumb in air, clicks tongue.
Ah - so now you've become a hunter. Excellent.
I hope you're keeping that finger-gun in a finger-safe and the fingernails in a fingernail safe! :D

Captain Blight
01-13-2009, 01:54 PM
So let me get this straight:

The same Government made up of politicians none of us trust is going to make laws regarding your ownership of something that is currently legal? The same government that has the right to pull your library files, wiretap your phone, inspect your backside in airports? That government? That Liberal government?

When did Ceaucescu and Himmels turn into Barney and Andy?

YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS MILO!!!

ishmael
01-13-2009, 01:55 PM
Milo,

Why is it personal? Phillip is a guy I'd trust around firearms. You seem a reasonable person, too. We share a basically libertarian outlook, you and I.

What is it about guns? Do you have some bad personal experiences with them?

I've never seen someone shot, by accident or on purpose, but I know it's not good. Short of making them illegal(maybe that's your purpose?) it's wise to discuss how to use them safely.

When it really needs to happen is as a youngster, though adults can learn, too. If you haven't, go to the local range and get some instruction. A good winter project for you. Get back to us. It's rather fun! Another reason to learn. :)

ishmael
01-13-2009, 01:59 PM
"The same Government made up of politicians none of us trust is going to make laws regarding your ownership of something that is currently legal?"

Not all of us are distrustful in the main. Good to keep an eye on the boogers. But they've already made all manner of controls on firearms. The question is how might we steer future legislation?