Questions regarding 27' St. Pierre's

[Spence]

Hi Everyone!

I intend to start my 4th boat and this time I'm going big. :D I'm usually into punts and rowboats.

I would like to build a ST. Pierre for coastal fishing the Banks and St. Laurence gulf with my sons. The 27 Ft suits me fine.

Some questions.

For the engine models, would'nt a small ketch mast be a better safety feature.? This with a skeg and pored reinforced concrete w/punchings keel. I'd use a keel strap to prevent damage. Also
pour ratio for the cement, ie: would a 1 to 3 ratio or 1 to 4 ratio using 4000lb class portland cement.

Why the port and starboard gangway?. It's seems to be dangerous anyway. Wouldn't cabin space be better with the cabin sides right to the sheer.? This way a short ladder then over the cabin wouldn't be too much of a nuisance.

How heavy are the small deisels today. That's not to say ballast
would be a problem has these types are designed for it, but I'm thinking about installing/maintenance issues. Also how about using the light 19HP one cylinder Asian air cooled deisal engines on the market? They say they are tough and reliable.

Hull planking. 3/4 Marine for the bottom w/glass 1 layer cloth protection. Can I use 1/2 for sides? With such a flare, would it be better to use 3/4marine for the sides.?

Thanks all

Spence

[Daniel Noyes]

What design are you building to?
How far off shore will you be fishing? which Banks?
as to planking I would follow the design specs. 1/2" marine for the sides sounds about right, how about doing glued lapstrake sides?
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[SeaB]

Hi Spence, I assume you are talking about the St. Pierre dory from Gardner? Try to get a copy of "The thousand dollar yacht" by Anthony Bailey Macmillan Co., N.Y. 1967 Lib. Congress # 68-10812. This was a raised deck 27' St.Pierre ketch rigged. Its a great read as well!
Are you talking the Banks off Cape Breton, or off the Rock? Much the same I guess. I haven't heard of any with a substantial ballast keel as you propose. You would eliminate the option to beach it then I guess. Phil

[Clip]

This with a skeg and pored reinforced concrete w/punchings keel. I'd use a keel strap to prevent damage. Also
pour ratio for the cement, ie: would a 1 to 3 ratio or 1 to 4 ratio using 4000lb class portland cement.

You really need to be very careful with your concrete mix design, so some questions.
How much concrete are we talking about? 1 ton, 2 ton, 1/2 ton?
Is the concrete on the outside of the hull, exposed to salt water continually?
Are you looking for high Specific Gravity and not strength? If so how little strength?
How are you going to place the mix, taking account you have no more than two hours after mixing to place it? (unless you add retarders).

[Spence]

Daniel:

I've got offsets from Sucher's simplified boatbuilding, so it's "scratch". Actually his Oregon Surf dory with the bogey wheel looks good too, but not suited for family outings for it's size. Could be scaled up I suppose. Nice beamy craft, as it's rigged for trolling.

Where I don't know, probably coastal NS and PEI, but mostly in the area sheltered by Que,PEI and west NFL. Before the days of GPS I would be concerned has I still need to take navigation lessons although I understand the basic theory. So I'll be hugging mama earth to start.;)

Glued lapstrake is traditional, but requires skill and time, but I agree, you can't beat it for beauty.

Spence

[Spence]

Phil:

The concrete is common practice a few decades ago, but factories make them ready made today. They were molded in place affairs of roughly 5-8in thickness and the concrete mixed with boiler punchings. Usually they became well chipped has time went by. They bolted with bronze rods right through the keelson and were triangular shape. It was meant to assist inner ballast for the simple utility sail and to ride for motor boats. 2' or so of water draft so pants would need to be curled.

Thanks for the tip on the St. P. Sucher includes a ketch, but has a low open rear cabin cuddy model. This dory is for serious fishing only not pleasure. I was just wondering why no one has one on a motor launch, a standard safety feature. Must be because of more reliable power these days.

Between the Cape and Rock they tell me is rough, but yes, I'll try there. I hope for halibut, but they tell me you've gotta go way offshore for that now has the fish are now much smaller.

(Which reminds me. Back in 59 my dad was working with Survey's Canada and did some coastal mapping work off the Queen Charlottes. At anchor they did some nite jigging to while away the time. They hauled in a 550lb halibut!. Took a number of guys to get it landed. Guys, what eating!. I mean ordinary Fish'n Chips beat any formal seafood meal you could ever have. Forget fillets.... my Mum cooked "slabs" of halibut, sweeter than any meat you could ever have.)

All:

A little about me.

My references are somewhat dated. Except for Henry Sucher's book, my plans and methods are dated 40/50's. I'm working with info on Model A engine conversions and tranny's, how to improvise, plywood is being introduced after the success on PT boats, everyones running around with (beautiful)philipine mahogany runabouts with marine converted straight eights w/rumble seats (speed today has nothing on these!), river people are living in Louisiana Bayou shanty boat houses made out of tared w/oak 2 X 10's, pirogues out of cypress are in as well has painted canvas Kayaks.

Oh yeah, I've dozens of plans on speed boats, the larger being cat style and no slouches at a race. These don't interest me. I've got novelties like the "Thing", teeth and all, which are basically 2 pieces of ply and bent at the seem w/transom fitted with a humongous outboard.

My library consists of PM's, "How to build 20 Boats". Hardcover PM's "Practical Boat Building". My favorite of these is the Colin Archer Ketch, Tahiti, which I have the offsets for, and the St. P. I'd love to get my hands on a reasonably priced Nordica/Halman 20 for sailing fun.

Spence

[Spence]

Clip:

I will need to do some displacement,center of effort,etc calculations first, and work out dry weight of the concrete. I will need to settle the sail area, which in a utility is very small, under 200 sq. ft, almost jib size. Sailing performance isn't an issue as they are usually used simply to get to sheltered waters.

Actually, concrete becomes more durable in water, but I can't say for sure about salt water. I suppose marine engineering would come up with a sea tolerant concrete. The concern would be I think exposure to fastenings. Here bronze and galvanized is a must. Standard reinforcment rod would be a concern, if used,well protected.

After calculating hull and sail issues, I would need to take a mold of the keel area for tight placement, and precisley drill the rod holes to match the concrete. This forms the upper part of my mold. The mix is poured in on the flat w/the top squeegied and troweled off. When dry, the whole is bolted on with a layer of butil sandwiched between (actually, I'd probably substitute with fungal resistant silicone.). The form can also incorporate a shoe.

Spence

[TerryLL]

Spence,

You might think about ordering a set of plans for this St. Pierre. All your questions about scantlings will be answered.


http://www.nexusmarine.com/images/27%27StPierre/Exteriors/at_anchor.jpg

http://www.nexusmarine.com/st_pierre.html

[Clip]

In general terms for concrete in contact with saltwater, use type 50 cement, 5 to 6 percent air entrainment, and granitic aggregate, you can get epoxy coated rebar, and I believe hot dipped galvanized (though I not sure about bending it after the galvanizing).
Yoy may be better of using an epoxy grout with aggregate, used for underwater pile repairs, and turbine beddings. It is more expensive, cost is about $100 cubic foot. But it has very high strength, high impact resistance and most probably does not require any rebar, it is impermeable. Concrete is not.

A fair site to visit about concrete would be at:
http://www.epcserver.com/Structural/analysis/concrete/info_concrete_saltwater.asp

Info on one Epoxy Grout you may use at:
http://www.cpd.ca/product_pdf/03600_CipaditeE500Grout.pdf

[L.W. Baxter]

Spence, a small motor is a good auxilliary for a sailboat, but a small sail is not a good auxilliary for a motorboat. A small sail would be useless in any sort of emergency. Unless you went for a full-on motorsailor with a really functional sailrig, I think you would be very disappointed. And making a motorsailor out of a St. Pierre would sacrifice some of it's primary virtues, simplicity being the foremost. I would carry a small outboard as auxilliary and fashion a well with a plug for it. One thing to consider is that an outboard would be an auxilliary for not only the motor, but the rudder as well.

I don't know what you mean by the gangways (waterways) being dangerous. I think the opposite is true; nice wide waterways all around, combined with cabin and coaming, are a great safety feature. You have to consider that the horizontal width of the waterways becomes vertical freeboard when the boat heels. So it is a great way to add freeboard without adding windage. And waterways along the cabin have to be the preferred method of going foreward. You suggest that you would prefer to crawl over the top of the cabin? At any rate, pushing the cabin sides out won't get you much extra useful space in a flared hull.

I'm a fan of the type, and will be keenly interested to see what you come up with if you chose to build a St. Pierre.:cool:

[JimD]

Ken Hankinson's might sail ok

Characteristics Length overall 26'0" Length waterline 19'11" Beam 8'6" Bottom width (max) 5'3" Draft (Power Version) 1'0" Draft (Sail Version max) 3'9" Displacement (@ DWL) 4150 lbs. Ballast (Sail Version) 1500 lbs. Sail area (Sail Version) 238 sq. ft. Fuel capacity 20-40 gals. https://www.glen-l.com/designs/hankinson/kh-images/056ultra-sail.jpg
Our trailerable Ultra-Pierre is available in either Sail or Power versions. Because beam and bottom width are wider than on other narrower St. Pierre dory plans you might see, stability is enhanced, and we can incorporate a sail option with the ability to carry a generous sloop rig. The boat also gains stability through additional internal ballast and a steel plate centerboard. This latter feature makes beaching the boat practical while simplifying trailer launching and retrieval. While wood spars are detailed, aluminum extruded types are optional.



Or Tom MacNaughton's:


http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/silver2.gifhttp://www.macnaughtongroup.com/silver3.gifAbout as simple a cruising boat of this size as one can do.
LOA 29'4" LWL 20'4" Beam 9'9" Draft 4'6" or 4'0" Sail Area 213 sq.ft.
This design provides accommodations for two, with a double berth, a galley and chart table, and an inside steering station. The area under the cabin trunk has full standing headroom, and serves as a wheel house, with windows all around. The boat can have either a single-sail marconi or Chinese lug rig. Personally the designer would have the Chinese rig.

[L.W. Baxter]

I do believe I misunderstood the original post. Spence, you mean to build a St. Pierre as a sailboat with an auxilliary inboard? I assumed when you said "for the engine models...a better safety feature", you meant sail as secondary power, and by a "small ketch mast" I imagined a steadying sail like is often used on displacement power boats and is generally aft, to make the boat steady on anchor.

If you are going to the trouble of a keel and full sailing rig, wouldn't you be better off with a real sailing hull?

[Spence]

L.W. Baxter:

I can't agree.

I also have lines for a St. Pierre cutter rig for cruising. In fact that is how I got the manual. I noted a masted dory docked in Kingston Ontario and fascinated I talked with the owner. He said
the plan is Sucher's cutter rigged 23'. (See "The Dory as a Cruising Sailboat with Ballast Keel" plate 102) that they enlarged to 27 for cruising. He and his wife just returned from the Azores. He said his keel was a concrete fin and the plans came from his book.

Short masted auxiliary sails on a motor launch are not unusual and recommended, and I will find NAs Atkin(sr) and Hannah's suggestions on this and post them. Banks dories have been fitted with loose footed lug sails and sail well with dagger boards.

Shipping an outboard on narrow aft, on a tender craft in a gale would be a trick I suppose. I would trust a sail more than an outboard, although they say the Seagull is the most reliable. Electricity and tons of water don't mix no matter what the make OB. Sails on motor boats are also used in combination with sea anchors.


nice wide waterways all around, combined with cabin and coaming, are a great safety feature....

You could be right, I was curious as to why no one would widen the cabin since the cabins are short anyway needing a short ladder. :)

Spence

[Spence]

JimD:

Excellent thanks! I like the latter. Center board for extended cruises would be a nuisance and unreliable although it's been done. I would like the weight way down under and out of the way.

I'm no sail expert but they say for smaller boats you want to spill the wind in the trades. A sloop sail with a lot of top hamper is not recommended. A shorter gaff or spirit sail is recommended.
From what I've seen from Chinese sails, although they are renowned worldwide, they seem to have a lot of battens and sewing and must call for extensive maintenance. Repair people they have a lot of. The gaff is almost in the same principle and simpler.

M2C

Spence

[Spence]

Spence,

You might think about ordering a set of plans for this St. Pierre. All your questions about scantlings will be answered.


http://www.nexusmarine.com/images/27%27StPierre/Exteriors/at_anchor.jpg

http://www.nexusmarine.com/st_pierre.html





OK, don't get me goin! :D :D

Thanks for the pic, A beauty, and right now the snow is 3' and it's 13 below. But this is the "fix" i was waiting for to keep me goin to the next fix.! I like the extended bridge, wow.

I got my offsets which to me is as good has gold.

Spence

[Spence]

In general terms for concrete in contact with saltwater, use type 50 cement, 5 to 6 percent air entrainment, and granitic aggregate, you can get epoxy coated rebar, and I believe hot dipped galvanized (though I not sure about bending it after the galvanizing).
Yoy may be better of using an epoxy grout with aggregate, used for underwater pile repairs, and turbine beddings. It is more expensive, cost is about $100 cubic foot. But it has very high strength, high impact resistance and most probably does not require any rebar, it is impermeable. Concrete is not.

A fair site to visit about concrete would be at:
http://www.epcserver.com/Structural/analysis/concrete/info_concrete_saltwater.asp

Info on one Epoxy Grout you may use at:
http://www.cpd.ca/product_pdf/03600_CipaditeE500Grout.pdf

Wow man, that's great! :). Saved me a ton of research.

On the galvanized, watch out what you buy. I bought 5 lbs 1/4in carriage in North Vancouver BC, and they turned out to be cold dipped. Good thing they started to rust early before I used them.

Spence

[Spence]

Thanks L.W.

I'm going to build the motor 27' St.P. for coastal fishing. It's just got a cuddy with aft standing room for fishing. OB motor well or IB are options.

What got this into sail is that I'm going to install a short utility sail mast up forward, cabin footed, not keel footed to save room and properly guyed. It's purpose is an auxiliary power if the motor fails. The issue is wether it is typical or not, and in the 40/50 it was even recommended. I said it would be a jib, but after read reviewing they use a lug sail or gaff. Actually, while the sail is stored, they use this has a crane meantime.

The same source also gives a thumbs up to an outboard cement keel for motor boats, has it makes them less lively in a sea.

I'm searching where I read this was recommended, and I think it was Atkin or Hanna who quoted this. I'll post when I find it.

As it were, my Sucher's book also has a cruising sail model, and that is what I was deverging to.

Why a dory for cruising? because I was fortunate to actually see one and meet the people/builders and saw the photographs for proof, AND most of all simplicity in building (although rough because of the flat bottom, can't have everything. A slight "V" doesn't hurt the characteristics of a Banks I've heard. :))

Spence

[boylesboats]

All of sudden St. Pierre Dory is gettin' interest....

Spence,
Those dories are not meant to go any faster than 14kts, an low rpm 10hp engine would be fine...
Where else have you looked about St. Pierre Dories?
Here an thread I started awhile back http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85465

[SeaB]

According to Gardner in the "Dory Book" the hull speed of a 27' St. Pierre dory will be around 7 mph, but you probably know that already, right? As a dedicaded Seagull enthusiast and owner, I'd like to recommend a Seagull to you, but honestly can't. There is a lot of nonsense out there about just how large a boat a Seagull is suitable for.
I have a 22' Brewer designed 2150 lb displacement hull and work in and out of a small harbor on Northumberland Strait in Nova Scotia. Its choked with eelgrass, is on an west east running narrow river channel, and I moor about 2mi from the entrance. I like to fish outside the entrance about 1 mi. on a rising tide. A 5.5 hp Seagull with low hours excellent compression is barely adequate to the task, and certainly won't do the job if you get caught out in a 40-50 knt squall that lasts several hours as happened this summer.
By the way, Seagulls are prone to picking up and clogging with seaweed, shutting off the cooling water flow. Get an older good condition 10-15 hp Omc motor with a semi-weedless prop. especially if you put it in a well. Better yet get a small diesel, 12 - 18 hp should be plenty. That my 2c worth anyway.

[TerryLL]

The Nexus St. Pierre calls for an outboard in a tilt-up well, 20-50 HP, for speeds from 7-14. I can attest that these big dories will go well beyond hull speed, like when surfing down the face of a big swell. But for normal cruising, 6-8 kn is more likely.

[Spence]

All of sudden St. Pierre Dory is gettin' interest....

l. Boyle

And no wonder. Sucher says that it's a tradition on the islands st.Pierre & Miquelon that these bankers have never been lost. Their form is tender though due to the flare, but just the thing for rough water.

I agree with the speed, they aren't meant for better than 6 knots. Pushing the ones with rocker makes them squat and plow water. They usually sacrifice rocker for speed, but I'm told the seaworthiness suffers. I'd take a St. P out mid atlantic any day over the fancy shmancy chrome plastic jobbies. But each to his own. ;)

At the pier in Rimouski I used to watch the old timers come in from a days catch filled right up. The one lung make-and-break engines would chug along at that speed. Heck take out a pocket book, lash the tiller, and enjoy the sun, what's the rush,hey? :D.

I read Gardners Dory book at the libary and should have bought it. I think it's out of print now but could be wrong.

"Working far offshore in an area of the roughest and most treacherous seas in the world, the Banks dory at once filled the required role of a very seaworthy small open boat capable of carrying an extraordinary large load for it's size and yet being easily propelled by oars in it's trip back to the mothership at the close of the day's work." Harry Sucher, Simplified Boatbuilding.

The thing with Sucher is that he wasn't a slouch for facts. Is offsets were obtain by hard work, tape in hand bending down and getting wet.

Spence

[boylesboats]

Spence,
John Gardner's "The Dory Book" should be still available...
Our host store should have some in stock...

[AlanL]

You know, I've got to say that I really don't think the St Pierre is that well suited to sail (even as an auxiliary), especially if one is looking at a traditional hull design. I do think they'd be far too tippy and if you pile the hull with ballast then you are simply pushing a whole pile of weight through the water. The additional design changes to make it suitable for sailing (keel, etc.) effectively cancel its advantages.

Preferable options would be to (a) have another motor like a small outboard, (b) big oars to push against (rather than pulling) if distance is not large - they move quite easily without too much effort and their weight gives them good momentum, or (c) a yuloh or sculling oar.

[TerryLL]

You know, I've got to say that I really don't think the St Pierre is that well suited to sail (even as an auxiliary), especially if one is looking at a traditional hull design. I do think they'd be far too tippy and if you pile the hull with ballast then you are simply pushing a whole pile of weight through the water. The additional design changes to make it suitable for sailing (keel, etc.) effectively cancel its advantages.

I agree. I've done a bit of sailing in a large dory, including one 900-mile excursion up the BC coast to Alaska. As wonderful as these hulls are under modest power, they are poor sailers, barely adequate off the wind and terrible to windward.

The renowned seaworthiness of these hulls is due to those great flaring sides and narrow bottom, which allow the boat to respond quickly to beam and quartering seas, leaning away from the waves, and rolling up and over. Adding an external keel would alter the boat's ability to respond quickly. If ballast is required, it belongs under the floorboards, inside the boat.

One of the joys of cruising in a large dory is the ability to get into the shallowest of anchorages, or to put the boat on the beach for some exploring, and perhaps spend the night there if the tide is right for it. With a keel, you lose all that.

[Spence]

BrianM:

Thanks Brian, that's light for the power. Not too much cast iron
and Kubota makes quality.

Thanks for the tip.:)

Spence

[Clip]

Ted Brewer, did design a sailing dory, see at:
http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/grandbanks22.htm

[AlanL]

Ted Brewer, did design a sailing dory, see at:
http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/grandbanks22.htm

This design is a good case in point where those elements that have made the GB Dory so successful as a small ocean going boat are cancelled with the inclusion of a large keel and its ability to correct easily and quickly is reduced with the sail. That can only result in water coming over the side.

If a sail is used I strongly believe the best option is with a lee-board or centre board and that the sail is kept small enough to eliminate the requirement for excessive ballast.

If a sailing vessel is what is desired then the dory designs that are designed for that purpose are a better bet, those with rounded bilges like the Swampscott seem well appointed. As they heel they are not falling flat on their side as a slab sided design will tend to do.

[boylesboats]

There are several large sailing dories designed with heavy keel...
But it not considered as traditional Saint Pierre Dory..