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pcford
01-08-2009, 12:05 PM
When Israeli kills civilians, their response is "Those terrible Hamas fighters, they hide among civilians." Now it is obvious that this is an improvised excuse.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/20091805410769377.html

There are no bomb shelters in Gaza..a group of civilians mostly children were hiding in a UN school. The school was marked. The GPS positions were given to the Israelis by a UN official.

The school was bombed and killed almost 40 people, most children. A UN official, John Ging, has said that there were no Hamas fighters or materiel at the school.

Cuyahoga Chuck
01-08-2009, 12:43 PM
Old trick. If you remember, Hezbollah in Lebanon put weapons up near a UN observer post. The UN observers were trapped and got shelled by the Israelis but someone survived to tell the tale.
As I said before, the Iraelis have command of the air space. They have airborn cameras tied to computers and satelites that can give almost instantaneous targeting.
I will not claim the Israelis or their equipment couldn't screw up but they have state of the art capabilites and have every reason to avoid killing civilians.

pcford
01-08-2009, 12:53 PM
I will not claim the Israelis or their equipment couldn't screw up


You just did.

The UN official in charge...on the scene said that there were only civilians there. I suppose the guy is lying to falsely accuse the Israelis?

It seems that every time a large amount of civilians are killed, Israel trots out this excuse.

JimD
01-08-2009, 12:56 PM
It seems that every time a large amount of civilians are killed, Israel trots out this excuse.

And they're not the only ones.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
01-08-2009, 01:05 PM
Who fired the first rocket?
I blame them.

LeeG
01-08-2009, 01:09 PM
Let me get this right, if Hamas is putting up missle launchers or mortars near UN facilities are they sticking around so that the empty launchers and fighters can be targets? If so they are mighty dumb,,or Israel is clearly making these schools targets and the refugees within them the intended target as the folks who have launched the rockets have enough sense to get out of there or launch remotely.

pcford
01-08-2009, 01:16 PM
Who fired the first rocket?
I blame them.


Could there, just possibly be, other actions by other parties in the conflict that preceded the firing of the first rocket?

If anyone does not understand the meaning of the word ahistoric when it comes to the one-sided analysis of the pro-Israeli side....one need look no futher than this example.

LeeG
01-08-2009, 01:19 PM
Could there, just possibly be, other actions by other parties in the conflict that preceded the firing of the first rocket?

.


nope, in the world of bang, bang, shoot, shoot it's all about who fits the paradigm of battling 6yr olds.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
01-08-2009, 01:20 PM
If you pick the fight and get your ass kicked, nobody feels sorry for you eh?

LeeG
01-08-2009, 01:23 PM
that or,,"but he hit me first!"

pcford
01-08-2009, 01:26 PM
If you pick the fight and get your ass kicked, nobody feels sorry for you eh?

Yes, but we might disagree who picked the fight.

pcford
01-08-2009, 01:31 PM
UN suspends food deliveries to Gaza because of Israeli killing of UN driver.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/middleeast/09mideast.html?hp

But wait, was he shooting rockets?

carioca1232001
01-08-2009, 01:50 PM
Gentlemen, you have short memories...recall the Israelis going into Lebanon some 30 months ago to take on Hizbollah ?

After the IDF suffered severe losses, they targeted a building, full of women and children that had sought refuge from the fighting. Does anyone remember ?

And it was that same witch - as is currently the spokesperson for the IDF´s Gaza operation - who announced publicly that the IDF never meant to do that !

What a load of bullies !

pcford
01-08-2009, 01:54 PM
Gentlemen, you have short memories...recall the Israelis going into Lebanon some 30 months ago to take on Hizbollah ?

After the IDF suffered severe losses, they targeted a building, full of women and children that had sought refuge from the fighting. Does anyone remember ?

And it was that same witch - as is currently the spokesperson for the IDF´s Gaza operation - who announced publicly that the IDF never meant to do that !

What a load of bullies !

This time around the Israelis are refusing to admit a single misstep.

I have the feeling that fewer and fewer people are buying wholesale the Israeli point of view...as I have said before, that is the best hope for the future.

George Jung
01-08-2009, 01:57 PM
You're on quite a run, PC. Very passionate, lots of references. I do notice that you tend to 'label', immediately, those who don't share your mostly one-sided views (yes, one-sided, in spite of your protestations).

Think you've changed anyone's mind yet? (If you do, think again)

pcford
01-08-2009, 02:17 PM
You're on quite a run, PC. Very passionate, lots of references. I do notice that you tend to 'label', immediately, those who don't share your mostly one-sided views (yes, one-sided, in spite of your protestations).

Think you've changed anyone's mind yet? (If you do, think again)

I certainly have not changed your mind Mr. Jung; I do not recall one statement from you that showed significant appreciation of both sides.

I don't think there is any hope of changing the minds of those that feel that there is only one side of the story. I do have hope of at least suggesting to those without a deep appreciation of the facts that there are two sides to the situation.

I would guess that most Americans have no level of analysis deeper than "Hey! Hamas shot rockets and the Israelis got back at them." These people ignore the fact that Gaza has been under a near total siege for months. They also ignore the fact that in fact Hamas drastically decreased rocket launch during the time of the last "truce." (some say they stopped completely.) Yet the Israelis did not modify their stance at all. Do you expect the Gazans just to commit mass suicide?

I have appreciation for both sides in this conflict and I have said so several times. The state of Israel has a right to exist. Israeli citizens have a right not to be blown to bits by a suicide bomber.

Repeatedly, I have given facts to support my contention. You seem to support only one side and give no supporting evidence except the existence of your own prejudices.

I would hope that this changes in your next post on this subject.

Phillip Allen
01-08-2009, 02:22 PM
rumour has it that only civilians were killed at Dresden...Toyko...Hiroshima...Nagasaki...

pcford
01-08-2009, 02:31 PM
rumour has it that only civilians were killed at Dresden...Toyko...Hiroshima...Nagasaki...

Most were civilians. The Israelis should have the integrity to call their aggression total war and not attempt it to defend it by arguing each time when they kill civilians that Hamas was hiding munitions in that elementary school (or whatever) which they bombed.

Was the forklift driver that the Israelis killed shooting rockets as he unloaded the food supply truck? Mistakes happen in the fog of war...everyone knows that. But Israeli keeps asserting there behavior is perfect.

Phillip Allen
01-08-2009, 02:34 PM
I don't think they assert perfection (that's your word), I think they assert plausable reason

BETTY-B
01-08-2009, 02:36 PM
It took me a lot of years to see what Israel was doing to the Palestinians. The information was just not available. As I started understanding the human rights abuses, my opinion on who ever is throwing the first rockets, has changed. Now I understand a people with nothing left to lose. Including most of the people that remember not living in a ghetto. And with this latest round of disgraceful actions by Israel, I have learned even more. Which has in turn done nothing but lower my opinion of Israel. If some white guy from the PNW loses all support within himself for Israel, what do you think this wholesale slaughter of unarmed civilians in a barrel will do to the opinons of not only those Palistinians that live there and elsewhere, but all Arabs that seem to be setting aside their small differences and are all coming together?

pcford
01-08-2009, 02:37 PM
I don't think they assert perfection (that's your word), I think they assert plausable reason

Oh, have the Israelis admitted one (1) mistake in targeting? If so, perhaps you could share this instance with me.

"Plausable" reason...I guess that's what this discussion is all about.

Phillip Allen
01-08-2009, 02:38 PM
it all comes down to which liar you believe...or news man

certainly they don't lie...all the time...but, they all lie

pcford
01-08-2009, 02:39 PM
<snips> what do you think this wholesale slaughter of unarmed civilians in a barrel will do to the opinons of not only those Palistinians that live there and elsewhere, but all Arabs that seem to be setting aside their small differences and are all coming together?

Yup. The big winners in this Israeli aggression will be Iran and the idiotic Islamic theocratic hardliners.

pcford
01-08-2009, 02:41 PM
it all comes down to which liar you believe...or news man

certainly they don't lie...all the time...but, they all lie

Yeh, yeh, yeh. "A pox on both houses." "Unpleasant people on both sides."

This is only marginally better than thinking that Israel is the angel of light in this conflict....or Hamas.

Phillip Allen
01-08-2009, 02:44 PM
I particularly notice such even-handed terms as "wholesale slaughter"

pcford
01-08-2009, 02:58 PM
I particularly notice such even-handed terms as "wholesale slaughter"

Box score is 650+ Palestinians dead (an increasing number of children and civilians) versus less than a dozen Israelis. The Palestinians are under siege with all borders sealed. The Israelis enjoy huge military aid from the US. Palestinians have rocks and the crudest of weapons.

What do you call it?

BETTY-B
01-08-2009, 04:58 PM
I particularly notice such even-handed terms as "wholesale slaughter"

It's an extremely crowded small city, under attack by one of the worlds most powerful war machines. If anything, that's an understatement.

Those evil children deserve it though. I mean after all, if those children didnt shoot crude, homemade rockets into Israels desert, they wouldn't be getting their legs and ears blown off by the poor Israelis.

50% of the casualties are children.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
01-08-2009, 06:28 PM
Again I ask, who fired the first rocket?
Admit it, the Israeli's didn't start this.

By your rational, we deserved 911 eh?

BETTY-B
01-08-2009, 07:04 PM
By your rational, we deserved 911 eh?

That's funny. I dont remember the US being part of any kind of human rights abuses against The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia...

pcford
01-08-2009, 10:57 PM
Again I ask, who fired the first rocket?
Admit it, the Israeli's didn't start this.

By your rational, we deserved 911 eh?

What we "deserved" is for a supernatural being to decide, if you are so inclined, or perhaps historians of a few decades hence. But it is certainly true that a lot of people in the Middle East now hate the US. Or better said, hate the government of the US. And it was not always that way.

While I was in Egypt for the better part of a month three years ago when someone would ask where I am from, I would say "America but I didn't vote for him." People would chuckle.

But it's not just George W. It's not because they have some ingrained blood lust for Western culture as Tinny would have you believe. And it's not because they "hate us for our freedom."

Back to the above post...if there is one idea I would like people to consider is that you have to expand your vision of the conflict more than the last few months.

Who is the original transgressor? I don't know.

However, the Palestinians are upset because a bunch of people, largely from Europe, came and took their land. You have to admit they at least have a point.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
01-08-2009, 11:19 PM
While they may have a point, that doesn't give them the right to launch rockets into Israel.
Do they care what they hit?

leaotis
01-08-2009, 11:25 PM
Again I ask, who fired the first rocket?

Israel, in 1948

pcford
01-08-2009, 11:27 PM
While they may have a point, that doesn't give them the right to launch rockets into Israel.
Do they care what they hit?

Does Israel have the right to starve children?

In your eyes, has Israel ever done _anything_ wrong?

pcford
01-08-2009, 11:28 PM
Israel, in 1948

Hey don't confuse these guys. They only want to talk about the last three months.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
01-08-2009, 11:31 PM
I'm asking about the latest round.
They're reaping what they've sowed.
I feel you're confused.

pcford
01-08-2009, 11:37 PM
I'm asking about the latest round.
They're reaping what they've sowed.
I feel you're confused.

How can you, in a conflict so complex and multi-layered, take a limited slice out of time and use that as a model for understanding the problem? Does that seem appropriate to you? It is crazy-making that people do this! What is the point? It is like judging WWII soley on the basis of D-Day.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
01-08-2009, 11:41 PM
Does tossing rockets at Israel help the starving children?
All it does is give them another way to die.

leaotis
01-08-2009, 11:43 PM
While we're at it....

"Much was made of the claim, including reports that Israel was mulling filing a formal complaint to the United Nations (http://news.antiwar.com/2009/01/07/2009/01/06/israel-mulls-complaining-to-un-after-killings/) about Hamas’ use of the facility. But as the United Nations poked holes in the official story (http://news.antiwar.com/2009/01/07/2009/01/07/un-contradicts-israeli-story-on-school-killings/), Israel is now backing off those claims. And while Israel had previously claimed to have had proof to back up its story, Gunness says the military is now conceding that the mortar fire they previously claimed came from the school came from elsewhere in the refugee camp (http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/249400,extra-un-israel-admits-rocket-fire-was-not-from-within-school.html)."

pcford
01-08-2009, 11:50 PM
Does tossing rockets at Israel help the starving children?
All it does is give them another way to die.

In case you would like another viewpoint on first cause:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200916191833159347.html

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
01-09-2009, 12:13 AM
Yeah it's another viewpoint.
Doesn't make it or you right Mr. Ford.

What did the USA do when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor?
We eventually responded with the A-Bomb.
It killed alot of people but it effectively ended the War and saved American lives.

We like to think we're all civilized but we're really not.
It all comes down to kill or be killed.

pcford
01-09-2009, 12:44 AM
Yeah it's another viewpoint.
Doesn't make it or you right Mr. Ford.

What did the USA do when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor?
We eventually responded with the A-Bomb.
It killed alot of people but it effectively ended the War and saved American lives.

We like to think we're all civilized but we're really not.
It all comes down to kill or be killed.

Incredible.

So whatever is your point? Do you actually have a point? Thus far it is not evidence.

Try very hard and formulate one please.

Are you saying that all Palestinians should be nuked? That is what it seems.

Do you think that if all Palestinians are killed that it will bring peace to the Middle East? Then what you want to do?

Israel was supposed to be a secure homeland for Jews. Now it is arguably the most dangerous place in the world for Jews. Civilians and children do not deserve attacks by suicidal Palestinians.

On the other hand Palestinians do not deserve to be corralled in their own land...pushed into tiny corners and and brought under total economic siege and near total warfare. They do not deserve the usurping of the land of the West Bank by "settlers."

I don't know how to bring peace to both sides in the conflict but there are several elements which must be included in any peace treaty.

1) The settlers must leave the West Bank.
2) Israel must release its stranglehold on the West Bank so that economic conditions can improve.
3) The citizens of both countries must be free from the threat of indiscriminate warfare.

The question, I hope, I pray, you see is a little more difficult than finding who sent the first rocket aloft a few months ago.

If you are a racist and believe that the Palestinians should be killed or enslaved by whatever means necessary, I really don't have much further to say to you. If so, you do not have the long term interests of Israel OR Palestine in mind. And then you would be no better than the rabid and bloodthirsty members of Hamas that you criticize.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
01-09-2009, 01:00 AM
Only a fool argues with someone named Mr. Know It All.

We took our land from the Indians and just about wiped them off the face of the earth in the process.

Was that fair?
No It wasn't.
Did it happen?
Yeah it did.

Is the same thing happening in the Mideast?
Pretty much.


They're both trying to wipe the other off the face of the Earth.
The Israeli's will always have more money and resources.
The Palestinians have already lost and don't know it or won't admit it.
Smart people don't throw rocks at tanks.

pcford
01-09-2009, 01:37 AM
Only a fool argues with someone named Mr. Know It All.

We took our land from the Indians and just about wiped them off the face of the earth in the process.

Was that fair?
No It wasn't.
Did it happen?
Yeah it did.

Is the same thing happening in the Mideast?
Pretty much.

Now what might the difference be? Now let me think...oh yes, these Indians have most of oil in the world. Oh...yes....these Indians have the atomic bomb. Well now, I guess there is a difference after. Hmmmm. Maybe not so good an analogy.

I find your comparison profoundly ignorant...and certainly not in the best interests of any party to the conflict...Israel, Palestine and the regional countries, the US and Europe.

From the deteriorating quality of your posts, I can only presume you are entertaining yourself tonight...I trust you are finding it enjoyable.

You are correct, sir, in that only a fool argues with Mr. Know It All. And I shall do so no longer.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
01-09-2009, 01:46 AM
Really?
You won't argue with me anymore?
Does that mean I win?

BETTY-B
01-09-2009, 01:57 AM
Smart people don't throw rocks at tanks.

Sure they do. Brains dont have anything to do with what a desperate human with nothing left to lose will do. To sincerely not know that does a disservice to your moniker.

DAN

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
01-09-2009, 02:03 AM
You're too late Dan, I already won.

I think smart people fire anti-tank weapons or run.

pcford
01-09-2009, 02:07 AM
Really?
You won't argue with me anymore?
Does that mean I win?

No, it means that arguing with you is about as challenging as arguing with a box of rocks.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
01-09-2009, 02:24 AM
I'm just crushed that you would think such a thing.
A box of rocks?
That's pretty harsh man.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
01-09-2009, 02:27 AM
"Brains don't have anything to do with what a desperate human with nothing left to lose will do."


How true.

pila
01-09-2009, 02:35 AM
On the news today, aerial photos showed Hamas rockets on the opposite side of that school where all the fuss is about. Naturally the other pics were of the other side in most news photos. Hard to pin blame on one or the other. Wonder how it will be a year from now.

BETTY-B
01-09-2009, 02:41 AM
On the news today, aerial photos showed Hamas rockets on the opposite side of that school where all the fuss is about. Naturally the other pics were of the other side in most news photos. Hard to pin blame on one or the other. Wonder how it will be a year from now.

What news?

pila
01-09-2009, 02:49 AM
CNN

BETTY-B
01-09-2009, 02:51 AM
Can I see? Linky?

pcford
01-09-2009, 02:51 AM
On the news today, aerial photos showed Hamas rockets on the opposite side of that school where all the fuss is about. Naturally the other pics were of the other side in most news photos. Hard to pin blame on one or the other. Wonder how it will be a year from now.

Evidently Israeli lies. The UN official on the scene denies that there were anything in the building but children and other civilians.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200917211831412575.html

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
01-09-2009, 02:54 AM
Hmmmmmm........that's an interesting development.
Aerial photos usually don't lie.
As I've said many times before, nobody knows it all but lots of people think they do.

pcford
01-09-2009, 03:06 AM
Hmmmmmm........that's an interesting development.

Guess again, know it all.


The IDF on Tuesday released video footage from 2007 showing Palestinian militants firing from the school compound and carrying a rocket launcher with them as they flee the scene.
From Haaretz...Israeli newspaper of record.
2007!! So now they bomb anywhere the militants have been in the past?
Unbelievable.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
01-09-2009, 03:18 AM
I'm not guessing, you are.
I'll be the first to admit that it's hard to get the straight story from the news.
That's why you can't be so sure of yourself or your sources of information.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
01-09-2009, 03:53 AM
"Those terrible Hamas fighters, they hide among civilians."

This isn't a lie.
It's a fact.

Duncan Gibbs
01-09-2009, 05:15 AM
"Those terrible Hamas fighters, they hide among civilians."

This isn't a lie.
It's a fact.

Insofar only as the Gaza is one of the most densely populated regions on the face of the Earth. So "hiding" is really a bit of a straw argument. If the aerial photographs show the launchers ACROSS THE ROAD for the school and not IN THE SCHOOL then that would make the IDF criminally liable. They have precision weaponry that can blow up one building and leave others around it almost untouched. The UN communicated the exact co-ordinates of its facilities to the IDF and the IDF decided to use them for target practice... With children inside!!

During the Iraq invasion when Australian bombers were conducting sorties, if there was any doubt over the target such as a high likely-hood of civilian or NGO casualties occurring, even if it had a legitimate military target contained within, the mission was aborted. The IDF, appears not to have any such qualms about producing horrific collateral damage.

BETTY-B
01-09-2009, 05:23 AM
Of the 750 Palistinians killed so far, 257 are children. No they dont have a problem with collateral damage one bit.

"GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Tiny bodies lying side by side wrapped in white burial shrouds. The cherubic face of a dead preschooler sticking up from the rubble of her home. A man cradling a wounded boy in a chaotic emergency room after Israel shelled a U.N. school."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jsmrjKAqkshaygppisP-rG6A1k5gD95J81P00

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
01-09-2009, 05:31 AM
.....
The IDF, appears not to have any such qualms about producing horrific collateral damage.


BBC report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7819000/7819520.stm) From 2:09 onwards.

Israeli forces herd civilians into a building, tell them to stay there, then shell repeatedly.


Why would anyone believe that this was "Collateral Damage" and not the deliberate intent?

LeeG
01-09-2009, 06:15 AM
so the people who fired the rockets are supposedly standing around to admire their empty launchers and share a smoke waiting to see how accurate the return fire is.

Duncan Gibbs
01-09-2009, 07:28 AM
Yeah! Meanwhile the IDF are acting like (sorry to inspire anger in Keith and draw an inevitable comparison to Godwin's Law) the Wermacht against resistance groups: You fire rockets that may kill one or two of us and we'll bomb your civilians wholesale. F&%king war criminals!!!