Steamed or boiled ribs?

[imported_Conrad]

Getting back to work on my Egg Harbor, I decided to try a test bend on one of the ribs that needs sistering. Having heard that boiling might heat the wood more evenly, I boiled the white oak piece, 2" X 17/16" for an hour and a half then tried to pull it around a 14" radius mold. Nothing gave, stiff as a brick, it did bend some, but wasn't even close to being able to make the bend. What's up? Does steaming get it that much hotter?- the piece was completely immersed in the boiling water. Wrong piece of wood? Too tight a bend? I really don't want to laminate all these pieces, but if I do, white oak or fir/mahogany? Thanks guys! Conrad

[RGM]

Where did you get the oak from and what was it's moisture content prior to boiling it? What was the grain orientation relative to the direction of bending. How tight is the actual radius of the bends that you have to make on your boat, 14"? How long of a bend? You may want to consider kerf cutting your stock with a bandsaw up just past where the major bend is prior to steaming or boiling.

[Figment]

I've forgotten the physics of "why", but steam heat does penetrate better than boiling. I think it's something about it being a hot vapor instead of a hot liquid... maybe someone in the medical field can relate it to why their instruments are sterilized with steam instead of boiling water.

14" is tight, but shouldn't be that tough. using a compression strap on the outside of the curve while bending around the form has helped me in the past, both in persuading stubborn wood, and in reducing breakage. what are the sectional dimensions of your frames? kiln dried, air dried, or green timber?

[Cedarhill Boatworks]

You can boil oak all day and all night and it will never be as supple as steamed. There are a handful of old threads about steaming and steamboxes. Do the search thing.....

[Bruce Hooke]

I also understand that boiling damages the cells more than steaming does and so you end up with weaker wood.

I think what the medical folks may use is pressurized steam, which means it is hotter than 212 F. Very effective for killing germs but also quite dangerous. I've been told that a jet of pressurized steam can slice off your finger...

[Allen Foote]

Hey Conrads, glad to see you're still at it. :D I steam at 350 degrees for 20 minuetes for 1" x 2" white oak....green or river soaking wet. :D You CAN over cook it....it will remove the moisture (seasoning the timber) from the oak.

[ 05-17-2002, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]

[imported_Conrad]

Well shoot, maybe the oak I bought is too dry- I bought it here at Comptons in Seattle, and while I bought some pretty big pieces and cut them down it must be too dry. At the time I was resawing it didn't strike me as being kiln dried, definately some moisture, but I don't have a meter. Can I soak it for a few weeks and have that help, or should I just try to find green stock?

[Wayne Jeffers]

It must be suppertime.

When I saw the topic, "Steamed or boiled ribs?" my first thought was, "Neither. Grilled, with barbeque sauce!" :rolleyes:

Wayne

[Bruce Hooke]

Soaking it for a few weeks will definitely help, although some will say that it's still not as good as green. Ideally I aim for a little on the wet side of air-dried unless I'm going for a really tight bend in which case greener wood is better. This whole issue has been hashed over many times here so a search of the archives will bring up plenty of reading material.

I don't know what sort of place Comptons is but as a general rule, for anything under about 3-4" thick, unless you buy it straight from a sawmill it will be kiln-dried, at least as far as native woods here in the USA go. You can get a basic idea of how dry it is by trying to sand it. If you can get dry dust that blows away easily then it's probably under something like 20% moisture content and on the dry side for steam bending.

That said, I think your biggest issue is boiling it rather than steaming it.

[steve sparhawk]

Ribs steamed or boiled. Sounds like one of my English mother's recipes. I've learned to like them B-B qued

[Allen Foote]

Good tip on the sanding Bruce.....I really like the "rule of thumb" knowledge that everyone can employ in the boatyard. :D

[Art Read]

Conrads... Look up Ohlsen's Lumber in Seattle on Aurora Ave. (I think) They usually have nice, green, bending oak available. You'll have to buy a pretty big slab... ($$$) 4/4 - 12/4 by 6" - 10" by 12' - 20' or so is usually what they'll have on hand to choose from. But it'll be good "boat" lumber.

[Donn]

Originally posted by steve sparhawk:
Ribs steamed or boiled. Sounds like one of my English mother's recipes. I've learned to like them B-B quedI agree steve...but, especially with baby back ribs, I like to boil them first, and then grill them. The boiling takes a large portion of the grease off the ribs and leaves it in the water. Then dry and cool the racks in the fridge until you're ready to grill them. After that, it's a simple matter of carmelizing some secret sauce on the ribs over a hot fire...Yum!

[NormMessinger]

Unless under pressure water will not get any hotter than 212 degrees F. at sea level. It turns to steam at that point. Steam can be heated as much as necessary and it is the heat that causes the wood to plasticize. I've used dry heat on thin boards for mountain duscimers but it is to easy to scorch the wood. It was said that wood bent with dry heat does not rebound as much as wet but boat boards might be different that instrument boards. Different folks, different myths, eh?

--Norm

[Allen Foote]

Norm has a point...I use an old "steam Jenny" with between 60 and 150psi. I guess you couldn't get the 350 from a stove top.

[Fitz]

Me and the boy spent part of the day whippin' up a batch of cedar ribs with a side of half ribs. The full ribs got steamed, the half ribs got the boiling water method. The results proved to be a little on the chewy side but oh, that aroma!!!

Darn near time to get the varnish "sauce" out.

[NormMessinger]

Doesn't anyone want to know what a "mountain duscimer" is? :rolleyes:

Never mind!

--Norm

[Donn]

I know what a dulcimer is Norm...we just spell it differently in our mountains. ;)

[Wayne Jeffers]

Norm,

I assume you mean "dulcimer," sometimes called a dulcimore.

I grew up in southern West Virginia. There are two kinds. I assume you're talking about the elongated-violin-shaped kind with strings plucked with a goose quill.

There's also the more traditional type, kind of a piano forerunner, with lots more strings on a four-sided frame, played by striking with two hammers.

Hey, I don't ask people from Nebraska if they know what corn is. ;)

Wayne

[RGM]

Follow Art's suggestion of buying some new stock from Olsen Lumber in Seattle. That's where the pro's frequently shop for boat lumber. You'll never get airdried or green stock from Compton's or Crosscut unless you specifically order it, or it's a specialty piece (usually small) for turning or something. It will then generally come from Olson, Edensaw or a supplier in Oregon or Canada and then be sold to as if it was on their back shelf. Catch my drift? They are a very incestuous group. I'm not knocking any of them. Except maybe one that I won't discuss here. Depending on what I'm looking for I use them all. It's just important to know who's on first. There are only a handful of places to directly buy real boat from. If you need some help look me up, I've e-mailed you in the past you may still have my e-mail address. Good luck.

[imported_Conrad]

Thanks guys- I'm off to Olsen's- the sanding test confirms this stuff is too dry, even when I cut one in half to expose a new face. Oh well, it's only money....

[Bruce Hooke]

Pressurized steam is a BAD IDEA:

I believe it was in an article in WoodenBoat where I read that tests had shown NO advantage to using pressurized steam for steam bending. Also preassurized steam is dangerous stuff. A jet of pressurized steam can reportedly cut off your finger. Stick with good old UN-pressurized steam. It does the job just fine if the materials and setup are correct.

FWIW: Since un-pressurized steam is being generated off the surface of 212 degree water and once it leaves the surface of the water it is also removed from the heat source, it is unlikey that the steam in a typical steam bending setup is getting any hotter than 212 degrees; so, I don't think we can look to tempurature as the reason why steam works better than boiling.

[Cedarhill Boatworks]

Mr. Foote,
Maybe I'm off base, a steam jenny to me is a portable steam generator used for steam cleaning? Do you have some type of pressure vessel that you steam wood in? Or do you use the steam right from the jenny and direct it at the area that is to be bent?

[Bob Adams]

Conrads, If that is a 37 Egg (and I'd bet my paycheck it is) why replace the ribs with something that is going to fail again in 12-15 years. The curve is such that the ribs,if steam bent will break again. I laminated the ribs in my Egg 10 years ago, works well and shouldn't crack again.I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but it is true.