Design idea... middle aged person leisure/exercise boat...

[Rob Blackburn]

I have been pondering a new boat and wondered if anyone could think of one that would fit this bill...
I have a 20 foot Core Sound that is great but is too big to launch and recover for a quick sail.
I built a Devlin dory with a RowWing sliding seat and love it but when it is windy and choppy it is a bit of a challenge to enjoy.
Soooo... here is what I reckon I would like.

Imagine a few hours spare and you are by yourself. Launch the boat, row away on the sliding seat if the water is calm in that part of the river/bay until you get to the corner and then you can ship the oars and quickly raise the single cat sail (along the lines of Nigel Irens Roxanne in design) and sail the reach or part of the bay until the next calmish bit and you have got your wind back, then drop the sail and row a bit more..

The length... around 14-15 foot, waterproof bulkheads so it won't sink if you tip it, nice and light so rowing is not a chore and as you are going to be one up or maybe 2 it does not need to be too robust as you will look after it yourself.

Light mast, carbon maybe... sliding seat mechanism and the gunwhales the right width to avoid the extension rowlock arms, so you just need the slider and shoes.

Centreboard that is high aspect and rotates, light efficient rudder that preferably lifts up out of the water so the oars will do all the steering.

No motor ever.

Small wet well for a couple of beers and a bit of ice.

3-4 laps on the side to make it look better, double ended for looks/lightness too.

Bit of freeboard so you don't mind taking it to that next headland corner if the chop is up a bit.

Nice sheer line with waterline carried the whole way.

Sail easily reefed.

The boat that gave me the idea is the Wayland Marine Merry Raid but that is not being built sold I believe. (picture attached)

Anyone got a suggestion.

Rob Blackburn
(48 and in need of more exercise...)

[Rob Hazard]

Take a look at Iain Oughtred's "Gem".

John Brooks and Ruth Ann Hill, in their Glued Lapstrake Boatbuilding book, mention building a stretched version of it, about 15 ft, if I recall correctly.

[rbgarr]

It sounds like an L. F Herreshoff double paddle canoe (16') might be a good choice, with a rudder, a single lee- or daggerboard for swapping side to side and a very low, battened lug sail. The seat and backrest he designed are very comfortable.

[Pernicious Atavist]

Yup, a sailing canoe, just right--sail, paddle,get out and tow....

You're 48 and calling yourself middle aged? I thought you was 60 or something! Dammit, man, you're still a pup if you let yourself be....

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I never heard of a any sailing dinghy that had a sliding seat in it. I have a feeling it has something to do with practical considerations like ,"will the sliding seat make righting the boat more difficult?". Or , "will the sliding seat hamper the normal scampering around that maintaining sail and clearing lines might involve?". Definitely, cramming a sliding seat, a centerboard case and some flotation chambers into 14 feet is and still have room for a passenger is going to take some artistry. If you kiss the sliding seat goodbye the rest should be readily do-able.

[Rob Blackburn]

thanks for that... the sailing canoe idea does not suit me as I tore a shoulder muscle swimming a few years back and paddling aggravates it. So I am keen on the rowing action.

I have found one photo of the Gem and it is a pretty boat so shall keep looking at that.

Here is a link to a collection of Merry Raid shots. It has TWO sliding seats in it but is a bigger boat...

http://homepage.mac.com/blackburns/filechute/raid%202.jpg

Rob

ps keep the comments coming.

[StevenBauer]

Harry Bryan's Thistle. 12' long, lapstrake pedal powered, fin driven decked canoe. I made a Rushton style batwing sail for mine and she sails great.

From Harry's site: http://www.harrybryan.com/harrybryan/4.finboat.JPG

http://www.harrybryan.com/harrybryan/boats/finboat.thmb.jpg


The real beauty is when you are pedaling your hands are free. Here's a little video clip of my Thistle a couple of years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PdOIXvfB3g

No worries for your shoulder, either.

Steven

[rbgarr]

Steve,

Nice job! I was trying to think of that design when I mentioned the LFH dp canoe but couldn't recall it.

Build me one of these in your free time, okay? Aircraft grade spruce and some carbon fiber will do nicely, you betcha.:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO7-tfVkoNU&feature=related

[Woxbox]

I'd be thinking about a Hobie mirage drive. You could make a daggerboard case that would take either the mirage or the daggerboard. Sailing or "paddling" would be from the same position in the boat, and the shoulder's don't get stressed. It might be a beamy canoe style hull, or it could be a trimaran such as the Hobie Adventure Islander setup, but a lot better looking. Fellow forumite Chris Ostlind has some good ideas along this line.

[Rob Hazard]

Question:
If you have a bum shoulder, are you still able to get a small boat onto the top of your car, or are we talking trailers? At age 60 I find that a 75lb boat is all I would even think of cartopping. My kayak weighs 56lbs and I'd love it more if it were 10lbs lighter.

BTW: Looking at Oughtred's website, I see that the correct name for Gem is Grebe, though it has now been renamed Tammie Norrie.

[peterAustralia]

I too have a large dory which is difficult to row in strong winds.

The boat I should have built is the Otter 16 from Bateau.com. I have a set of plans. The boat and plans are very very good. It is about 15.5ft long, with 4ft beam. It has low windage making it easy to row in moderate winds. Additioanlly there is option for a small unstayed sail. From memory it specifies a gunter sail, though I suspect you could get away with a lugsail, hopefuly the C of E would not be too far forward. There is a small dagger board.

I think this boat would be very well suited for your needs. You get professional plans, a very well designed boat, excellent rowing and the ability to sail.

As I said, I have a set of plans which I bought from the supplier and paid full price for. This is the boat I should have built and not my larger banks dory, my loss as I was daft as the Otter 16 would have better suited my needs. I think ethically it should be fine to sell them on at half price if your interested. If this is not ethical no doubt I will be told off soon.

I am also in Australia, so postage will be simple.

Another design that I can think of was a double ender at 16ft. It looked a lot like Herreshofs 16ft double ender but was in light plywood and double chine.

What wave conditions are you looking at there, what is your design weight? I think you will be hard pressed to do better than the Otter 16, time will soon tell though.

n peter evans

[Rob Blackburn]

The Otter option looks good too. Here is a folder of some stuff I found last night on a boat called Lolita... designed as a Raid boat.

It looks similar but the plan price of 330 Euros is a bit out of control.

I am off to Canada tomorrow so can't do too much until the end of the month and will give you a call then.

Rob

http://homepage.mac.com/blackburns/filechute/LOLITA%20SAILING%20BOAT%202.zip

[Erik le Rouge]

Other options :
Scilly gig from Bateau.com http://bateau.com/studyplans/SG15_study.htm?prod=SG15 and the Flint from Ross Lillistone http://www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au/

[john l]

Harry Bryan's Thistle. 12' long, lapstrake pedal powered, fin driven decked canoe. I made a Rushton style batwing sail for mine and she sails great.

hey steve, i'd love to see a foto of thistle with your batwing sail. sounds like a nice setup. the balogh sail might also be another alternative. i paddled a thistle
about 15 years ago during a fiddle head class with harry bryan. it is truely a unique boating experience which is quite relaxing too. always wondered if harry licensed the idea to hobie? but i doubt it.

[StevenBauer]

Lots more here, John:

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5708


http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2054567 (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2054567#post2054567)

[Ben Fuller]

I never thought of it this way but my old ducker fits this spec exactly. It rows from a gunning box as a seat and has no thwarts. Some years ago I made a frame with sliding seat tracks and a little platform with wheels sized so that the gunning box fits on top of it. Works great. I use my regular 7 and a half foot oars on the normal rowlocks. It's just that I now can put leg power into the stroke. Does not really increase speed since the boat is only about 14 on the water line but improves ability to get to windward when its blowing hard. The rig of convenience is a modest boomed sprit. It sticks over the bow when rowing. As a sailboat, the ducker is not one for someone who wants to sit in the bottom and snooze; if the wind is up you are on the side deck with your foot under toe straps, tiller extension in hand and thankful to have a ratchet block on the main. The frame does not interfere with sailing and the gunning box can be used as a seat slide aft or put along side the daggerboard trunk.

[keyhavenpotterer]

Ben, my new RAID41

http://strathkanchris.wordpress.com/boats-i-have-built/trim-the-first-raid41/

sounds not too different to your Ducker and we have been discussing rowing options for her. She too has no thwarts and just to row with a non-sliding seat will require a small box and seat to sit on. Could you tell us a little more about your sliding seat box. Length of "slide" would be nice to know. Pictures would be really good if possible. Thanks, Brian.

[john l]

Lots more here, John:

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5708


http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2054567


Thanks Steve. what a nice chronology of the build...and a period of your family life.
thanks for sharing. so how did the thistle sail? i didn't see a leeboard...will go back and look. the thing that i like about harry bryans boats are their directness; honest simple elegance and timeless style; and clean (modern, tradtional) building process. looks like you even followed harry's "cetol" finish too!

[StevenBauer]

She sails fine, John. I haven't sailed her in a couple of years as we've been busy with Talisman but I'd like to set her up again for some early season outings. No leeboards needed, her fin keels give plenty of lateral resistance. No Cetol, either, just varnish on the mahogany, cedar and lacewood. It was fun building with no plywood or epoxy. :)

Steven

[Ben Fuller]

Ben, my new RAID41

http://strathkanchris.wordpress.com/boats-i-have-built/trim-the-first-raid41/

sounds not too different to your Ducker and we have been discussing rowing options for her. She too has no thwarts and just to row with a non-sliding seat will require a small box and seat to sit on. Could you tell us a little more about your sliding seat box. Length of "slide" would be nice to know. Pictures would be really good if possible. Thanks, Brian.

My ducker rowing seat aka gunning box has its bottom set a inch or so higher than the bottom of the sides so that the sides can be fit to the curve of the bottom and notched to fit over bottom board cleats.

This makes set up for a sliding gunning box easy. I built a frame of I think it was clear strapping, scrap I had around. Frame is long enough for the stretcher and conventional sliding seat tracks are mounted on it. The width is critical as the rollers go onto a little plywood platform sized to fit the bottom of the gunning box with the sides overhanging. Obviously the height has to be such that the sides clear.

Use is simple. Set the frame into place. It is notched to fit over the bottom board cleats. Set the sliding platform on it. If I was smart I'd have the L shaped detents on it but I don't. Then drop the box on that. The only problem I have had is once shooting between a couple of pilings I misjudged and the boat rolled severly and the whole mess came apart. But that was about 45 degrees.

When I want to use it with the sailing rig I have to retie the centerline hiking strap to go over the forward end of the frame. Other wise, just take the box off the sliding platform and the sliding platform off the frame.

For a boat this short I can row it to hull speed fixed seat. What the slide does is give me more endurance and especially let me keep power on up wind. All around 4 knots. In the 80s I did I think 3 blackburns in the ducker and finished within 5 minutes in a wide variety of weather conditions.

A couple of other things: the gunning rig is a 56 foot sprit; the summer rig about 75. I have never felt the need for ballast. Camping your gear provides same. If its windy you hike. Boat is mechanically fastend and ways about 140 lbs hull and floor boards. Built glued lap you take 20 or so pounds out and we did some cold molded ones at about 80 pounds. Biggest problem in a breeze in open water is spray. Freeboard is low, so a canvas spray deck coming half way back would be nice.