Racing Sailing Dinghies -- And a Challenge

[Carl Cramer]

Dear All,

I know we spend a lot of time on this Forum speaking about wooden sailing dinghies, as we should.

Old friend Andrew Hurst, editor of the wonderful Seahorse magazine (a great read: www.seahorsemagazine.com if you are into performance sailboats), had a riveting editorial and challenge in the November issue. Andrew, I hope you don't mind if I quote you extensively?

Andrew was praising and also criticizing the ISAF (the international sailing federation responsible for, among items, Olympic sailboat classes) for their selection of expensive dinghies for the Olympics, and the ramifications to less-opulent nations.

And now I am quoting him directly: ".. further down the pyramid, the ISAF overlooks the grass roots at its peril; many commentators around the world were busily bashing Olympic sailing during the Qingdao Regatta because of its perceived lack of access.

"Even sailing's most eloquent ambassador[sic: s?] cannot defend the sport, when asked how easy it is for the less economically fortunate to try sailing, compared to, say, track and field. It is this, rather than continually repackaging a perceived elitist regatta for live TV (for which sailing is completely unsuited, edited highlights will always be better), that should be concerning ISAF.

"Have a look at the options, have a look at some of the cheaper, plywood-based skiff-types that are right now being created in garages across America and elsewhere, then launch a budget design initiative. Then give your new class a big championship and see what emerges."

Noble aspirations, Andrew, and well spoke.

We will take up those challenges here in the Forum. High-performance wooden sailing skiffs. Separate prizes for plans, kits, and, separately, for manufactured wooden skiffs. Winners chosen by Forum votes. Say a deadline of June 1, 2009. Winning plans and/or a full version hopefully at the WoodenBoat Show 2009 (June 26-28, in Mystic, CT).

The gist: Low-cost; easy-to-build or buy. High-performance, but not out of the reach of economically challenged countries or people. Set a limit of, say, $3-5K/boat, fully outfitted. But bonus point if your design/plan comes in less than that. (Remember, we are talking about the OLYMPICS!) If that doesn't get your minds stimulated, what will? We can have a sail-off here at WoodenBoat in the summer of 2009 to prove the validation. And by no means restricted to the US. How realistic? Who knows. But at less we can try...

(In Andrew's followup editorial in the December issue of Seahorse, two entries had been received: Dudley Dix and his wonderful PaperJet 14, well-documented in WoodenBoat and on the Forum (www.dixdesign.com/paperjet.htm) and Dave Bradly's "cool stitch-and-glue Quetzal" -- plans for $300 at www.fastcomposites.ca). This is a very exciting and important project.

Designers, start your engines and let's see what you have to say.

Thanks, Carl

[John Meachen]

A great initiative and one which I hope succeeds.I have to admit not being a great enthusiast of Olympic sailing but this seems like a sensible way to broaden the access.I hope the sailors,and their representatives,in the more affluent countries can be persuaded that such a boat is desirable for the sport as a whole.From a Woodenboat viewpoint would it be better if the builder sailed the boat and points were awarded for the quality of the build in addition to those awarded for position on the water?

[Carl Cramer]

Thank you, John. Sure, the builder/designer/and owner should all sail the boat ahead of time. This is a classic case of putting one's best foot forward. A requirement? No.... Let the owner, whether he/she is also the designer/builder sail her. There's no max on crew number.

Let's outlaw foils to keep costs down? It may be the way that a certain part of the industry is going (and a very exciting one at that), but let's keep it within our budget.

And the budget must prevail, along with the requirements of a truly outstanding and compelling design/build.

Thanks, Carl

[rbgarr]

It will be a fun challenge and fascinating to see what arises.

On the side I'll try to respectfully disagree with Friend Hurst at least as far as singlehanded boats used in the Olympics go. The fg Laser class is widely sailed in all of its permutations by kids, women and men, and an Olympic class since 1996. They are about as one-design, available and financially accessible as could be. Two man dinghies are another thing. Should the design comp be for that class maybe? The 49ers are pretty pricey, while the 470 for men and women was much less so. I wish the Seahorse website linked to Andrew Hurst's editorial. He's commenting on more than design issues, and it's an argument that's been going on for years if not decades.

Meanwhile I'm guessing the rig and sails for the one-man PaperJet or Quetzal: full roach and battened main, roller jib, assym spinnaker, trapeze and all that goes with them would cost close to an entire Laser full up, from what I see on the links.

I think CNC kits with tab assembly will answer for a rigidly simple boat design that
1) aims at the budget targets
2) can be easily assembled by amateurs and meet measurement tests unfailingly
3) is uncomplicated to learn to sail well and
4) can be transported conveniently.

I wonder if something like a simplified version of the Laser Vago could meet the budget target.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHNF4u1JcF0
Maybe it could do away with the jib, have a sliding-to-fixed ballast keel (no trapeze and for capsize recovery) and a permanent bowsprit. Freestanding rig except for running backs? Or maybe a tilting mast like BMW Oracle! Gotta give that crew sump'n to do!
Hmmm.... I wonder what the Vago assym spinnaker would cost? Hobie 16 mast, mainsail and rudder assemblies?

[johnw]

Of course, pretty much every class that gets chosen by the Olympics becomes expensive, with some exceptions such as the Laser.

There are great classes that are not too expensive already in existence. The Windmill comes to mind, as well as the Snipe. Past Snipe class champions include Paul Elvstrom and Torbin Grael. The boats are there, the level of competition is there, but the interest in such boats has not been there.

Now you're looking for a new design. Is the Soling really a better boat than the 210? Yet instead of considering keel boats that had already proven themselves, the authorities looked for a new design at the Kiel trials. And it didn't take long for the Soling class to get expensive.

One of the things that can restrain costs is a strong class organization. A new class won't have that right out of the box.

So let me ask you. Are we looking for a new style of skiff that can do things existing designs can't, and if so, what? Or would some existing class fit the needs?

[Raka025]

Here's a picture of me on my Swift Solo.

http://www.gflyc.com/gallery/Site/GFLYC_Albums/Pages/Swift_Pictures.html#48

[johnw]

Here's a picture of me on my Swift Solo.

http://www.gflyc.com/gallery/Site/GFLYC_Albums/Pages/Swift_Pictures.html#48

Comes out black.

Is the Swift Solo any cheaper than the 29er?

[Steve Paskey]

Comes out black.

Looks fine here. Hey ... wait for me! :D

http://www.gflyc.com/gallery/Site/GFLYC_Albums/Pages/Swift_Pictures_files/Media/DSC_01620047/DSC_01620047.jpg

[Ben Fuller]

The new box rule International Canoe comes to mind. Some good stuff going on in tortured plywood. One aim is a flat pack. BUT and this is a big one, to stick a rig on it you need about 3 large for sails and carbon. Dudley's PJ is not cheap in the high end version 10 k or so as I recall for kit.

Carl, a couple of parameters please: one person or two? trap, wing or other hiking aid or straight straps?

[MiddleAgesMan]

Doesn't look like a $3-5K boat to me.

[Boatmik]

It will be a fun challenge and fascinating to see what arises.

On the side I'll try to respectfully disagree with Friend Hurst at least as far as singlehanded boats used in the Olympics go. The Laser class is widely sailed in all of its permutations by kids, women and men, and an Olympic class since 1996. They are about as one-design, available and financially accessible as could be. Two man dinghies are another thing. Should the design comp be for that class maybe? The 49ers are pretty pricey, while the 470 for men and women was much less so.

Meanwhile I'm guessing the rig and sails for the one-man PaperJet or Quetzal (full roach and battened main, roller jib, assym spinnaker, trapeze and all that goes with them) would cost close an entire Laser full up, from what I see on the links.

Lasers are certainly the cheapest of the bunch ... but even the AU$10,000 or whatever they are now can exclude so many people and so many nations.

It is possible to put something together for a few hundred .. maybe $500 should be the target or thereabouts .. back to what Optimists would be if they had kept simple. But the coolest spars Oppies use for regattas are around $700 for the set now.

So all those expensive bits could be cut out by highly restrictive rules.

Otherwise the normal arms race (upgrades of systems, fittings, sails, battens, spars) will transform the boat over a few years to be as expensive as everything else.

It is that upgrade mindset that causes the problem.

For example the Laser .. now allows metres and metres of extra rope and I think it now allow a lot more blocks (ball bearing ones too maybe) compared to the original configuration. But the thing is ... once everyone upgrades and pays the extra money ... they are all sailing at the same relative speed to each other in the fleet. So it is a flawed strategy for any class that intends to be grass roots.

This flawed strategy is true for every popular upgrade in every fleet and is the core of why expense blows out.

There is is a place for classes where upgrade-itis can take place .. people should be able to sail the types of boat that they want .. but the "disease" has permeated even down to the most simple kids boats.

I would also strongly argue it is why mainstream sailing is struggling in many countries and failing to be introduced to new ones. The boats that everyone is told "they have to have" are too expensive.

Whatever you think of the PDRacer ... there are some rules for the OZ subclass we put together to stop this sort of arms race. We have an extensive combined racing background going back 3 decades .. so know most of the sources of the expense and the history behind most of these faux improvements.
http://www.pdracer.info/PDRdesign/ausrule.html

The interesting thing is most of the real improvements of the last century are still available at very little cost - it can be all done cheaply and simply in a garage with a few hand tools to build a lightweight boat with good performance.

But a $500 self built boat is just as expensive to transport across the world as any other. I guess this is in a woodenboat forum because there is some idea that it can make part of the process cheaper.

But the big problem .. is that like the lead post in this thread points out .. the powers that be think that performance and excitement is the only way of attracting people to sailing or their class of boat.

But the numbers keep going down (in this country at least) as the upgrade-itus continues. We have one kid's class here that allowed carbon spars a couple of years ago. The list price without fittings is about $1500-2000. It is a lovely little boat ... but ... who will move to it now? And what was the reasoning behind the change?

This is the mindset that we are up against. But arguing on equity to introduce more countries and more people to sailing is a great trump card.

I can't see why $500 would not be a sensible target for an adult boat built in the USA. Australia it would be more expensive (quite a bit) because our ply and timber is much more expensive as well.

Also in developing countries (even in some developed ones) there is still a problem getting the right building materials. But if something becomes popular ... pathways to these materials will be made easier too.

In the past .. the Olympic sailing committee (or the former IYRU ... what are they called now "World Sailing Incorporated"?) have stipulated a new set of criteria ... then different groups develop different boats and there is a sail-off to find the best boat.

MIK

[Carl Cramer]

The new box rule International Canoe comes to mind. Some good stuff going on in tortured plywood. One aim is a flat pack. BUT and this is a big one, to stick a rig on it you need about 3 large for sails and carbon. Dudley's PJ is not cheap in the high end version 10 k or so as I recall for kit.

Carl, a couple of parameters please: one person or two? trap, wing or other hiking aid or straight straps?

Thanks, All. Ben, I'm not trying to set parameters. You-all are better at that. I'm just hoping we can discover or inspire some great affordable boats. There are so many talented people in the Forum that I have confidence this will happen.

[rbgarr]

Fair enough, Carl!

I still have hopes for the Footies at the WBS. I'd love to see that. Perhaps it could be something specifically mentioned on the Show website and in the Magazine?
For all comers as well as Forum dwellers and with links to kit makers and websites?

[Woxbox]

http://www.theboathouse.biz/graphics/hobie_bravo.jpg

So the Hobie Bravo lists for just under $3,000. I have to wonder if you're going to attract new blood to the sport if the boats won't have to look in some way like the highest performance boats out there. What would a small, light, performance cat look like in ply? Needs to have a single sail to keep costs down, and very rigid class rules. This type of boat (assuming separate crossbeams) can be packed into a pretty small package for transport, too. I'm thinking a simple, scaled-down Tornado for one.

[Raka025]

Comes out black.

Is the Swift Solo any cheaper than the 29er?

Aaahh - "no" to cheaper. It's a build it yourself proposition. If you have free labor, yourself, it still comes in at around 11K to 12K. There were a couple of chaps that tried to make a go at building them according to designer specs but the market wouldn't bare the expense with profit.

As for Olympic viability? Too expensive and too technical in it's present iteration.

Steve, did you have to upload the picture to another server to post it? If you were behind me, you could clearly see in the following pictures, that you did catch me and pass me. What did you think of the nice shiny bottom? I lost concentration in dropping the spinnaker at the leeward mark and the boat accidentally jibed. Swim time.

[Hwyl]

I definitely don't agree with Mr. Hurst in as far as his own country is concerned. Given the funding and outreach programs the RYA has, it is entirely possible for someone from a poor background to reach Olympic heights. Britain is now a much more egalitarian country, after all a Caribbean British guy from public housing just won the F1 motor racing championships.

I also grew up in public housing in the U.K. and started sailing in high school, but I did (and continue to) face some financial hurdles.

So, to continue my hijack, I do think that in America U.S. sailing should take it's nepotism blinkers off, and consider that there may be better ways to chose Olympic, than it's very expensive and incestuous current method.

Back to Carl's point, it seems to me that there are plenty of boats that were designed during the heyday of kit boats that would fit his parameters, and I'd cite the Fireball as a particularly good example (although they never excited me).

Rbgarr (Dave) brings up a very good point in saying that CNC milling could help eliminate the inconsistencies that that plywood boat builders have always sought to build to the extent of the tolerances to maximises the performance and therefore marketability of their boat.

Having said all that, I'd like to try my hand at that, and I'll put the economical outboard boat on the back burner, to see what I can come up with.

I'm torn between a performance boat and a sit inside boat for the special (and possibly regular) Olympics.

[rbgarr]

In the two man class the International Tempest was my favorite design in the Olympics, but all in all I don't think of the Olympics as the be-all, end-all holy grail of competitive small boat sailng. There seem to be three levels of competitors in them: top flight, full-time, funded, go-for-the-gold, then solid amateurs, then also rans who are there for the Olympic camaraderie and participation.

The more frequently scheduled one-design regional, national, 'hemispheric' and world class championships seem to draw closer competition and yet better overall sailors even as 'pros' bounce from class to class and practice their talents widely.

[DGentry]

As a former competitive dinghy racer, who was formerly appalled at how much it cost me, this is definitely an issue I view with interest.

However, this challenge sounds pretty pointless, as written. The criteria is for a boat that is "High-performance, but not out of the reach of economically challenged countries or people. Set a limit of, say, $3-5K/boat, fully outfitted."

That's a Laser, of course (as previously noted). And the Laser Radial. Ergo, this whole challenge has already been met and won. In fact, part of the argument for adopting the Lasers into the Olympics was that it was more accessible for participants from poorer countries.

Is the aim to replace the Finn? Well, OK then. Wooden singlehanders could be/have already been designed that might top out at $3-5k. But that's a pretty small size range of sailor, if you're aiming at worldwide participation.

Is the aim to replace the 470 or the 49er? All up for $3-5k? As I - and others - see it, the only way to do that would be to use an ultrasimple, rigidly one-design boat. That sounds do-able, in theory at least. Others have already eloquently addressed the many other issues involved.

Again, the challenge parameters, as written now, have already been compellingly answered by the Laser (and by the sailboarding components, too).
If the challenge is to to replace one of the other boats in the Olympic fleet, well, perhaps you should make that a bit more clear.

If the challenge is just to develop a grass roots fleet to get the less economically fortunate to try sailing, well, make that clear too.
{I think the argument can, and has, been made that this, also, has already been achieved.}

Just my two cents worth.

Dave Gentry

[johnw]

I still don't have a picture of what kind of boat you're looking for. Since the Laser and sailboards are relatively inexpensive, Are you looking for a two-man or three-man dinghy? And is the cost you're talking about for materials for a home-built vessel, or a ready-to-race price? Are we talking about Windmill level performance and goodies, or 49er level stuff?

Here's a thought. Decide whether you want a simple boat or something with trapezes, spinnakers, etc. Decide how many people will be in the boat. Then hold a competition something like the Center for Wooden Boats' Quick & Daring Boatbuilding contest. Here are the rules:



“QUICK & DARING”

THE LAKE UNION CHALLENGE CUP

BOATBUILDING CONTEST

Here are the rules for the LAKE UNION CHALLENGE CUP:

The contest is a stretching exercise for the boatbuilders’ creativity, planning, and construction skills, but its special purpose is to provide an exciting and enjoyable experience for contestants and spectators.

Any design may be submitted. The design must be original. There are no limits on size or materials, except that only cellulose-based products may be used for the main structure of the boat. Sail(s) and lines may be petrochemical-based materials. Everything on the boat, such as oars and rowlocks, must be made during the contest. No pre-cutting of materials is allowed - everything should be off-the-shelf when the contest begins. There are no limits on fastenings; anything goes. The Center is seeking sponsors for participating teams. Contestants will supply all tools; CWB will provide two sawhorses per boat. Two persons must build each boat.

Each boat must be built within one day. (Past entries have been built in as little as 45 minutes. Last year’s entries took an average of four hours.) Both builders must be aboard the boat during the race. Boats may be painted (artistic embellishments are not required, but they are appreciated by the crowd). Builders must supply their own paint and brushes. Painting time will not be counted in computing the winner’s building time.

All design entries must be received at The Center for Wooden Boats no later than June 20. A panel of judges will select six designs and one alternate for the contest. Entrants will be notified by June 23. The criteria will be sound design, originality, ingenuity and whimsy. The contestants will retain the boats. The plans will be available to view and to purchase from the contestants.

Three teams will build each day, July 4 and 5 starting at noon. On July 6, the resulting boats will race a triangular course, one leg to be rowed, one sailed, and one free style. If a boat does not complete the course it will be disqualified.

All boats and materials must be removed from both CWB and Parks property by 4pm July 7, 2008. Boats can be disassembled and disposed of in the Festival dumpster as long as this time frame is met. Arrangements to recycle materials at CWB must be approved in advance. Reimbursement checks will be held until boats have been removed from CWB and Parks property. If this deadline is not met, the cost for CWB to remove the boat will be deducted from the reimbursement check.

The winner will be determined by the following point formula (low point wins):

Speed of building Minutes/3
Cost of materials $/2
Showmanship 1-6 x 10
Originality 1-6 x 10
Aesthetics 1-6 x 10
Speed (Sail & Row) 1-6 x 10
Design Worth Keeping 0-200
Tool weight Lbs x 2

There are some scoring categories that are just about giving folks a good show, like showmanship and originality, that could be eliminated. I've been judging this contest for about a dozen years, and I've seen some nice boats produced in a day. You'd have to specify that any plywood used by marine ply, but it might even turn out that wood's not the cheapest material.

[johnw]

As for cost of materials, you might look at this thread:

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90166

[ChaseKenyon]

So let the games begin:

1) 18 ft. long
2) 5'10" beam
3) 175 sq ft of sail
4) 25.5 ft solid spruce mast (new ones are aluminum)
5 ) seven stay double diamond and running backstays (new boats are 3 stays.)
6) Plus Trapeeze wire for the crew, skipper hikes out.
7) Draft CB up 7.25" CB down 3.5'
8) class weight 500 lbs fully rigged to sail
9) one of the strictest one diesign classes where original carvel and shiplap boats can compete evenly with modern plywood and fiberglass boats.
10) Will plane up easily and with lee chine in and CB at 1/3 will run on 2.5 ft by 8 to 10 ft of hull on the water.

I have sailed Alden Sea Witches, Freres fastnet Racers, dragons, solings, super sunfish, 505, dutch schooner rigged whatle boats, Toranados, Hobies, Siszlers, and more, but this is my favorite.

http://www.shorenet.net/hamptonone/Keith+Susan.jpg

the key thing is the buildd options and aa 75 yeaar class

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74QD0x1vJfE&feature=related


:D

[johnw]

Hampton rates 91.9 on Portsmouth, same as a Snipe, which is cheaper, simpler and more popular.

Faster and cheaper than either is a Windmill.

http://windmillclass.org/

[johnw]

Of course, almost nobody has the class organization of the Snipe class, but their wood construction standards are out of date, so it's probably impossible to build a double-hulled wood Snipe on minimum weight. I'm giving up on racing my wood Snipe, but I'm keeping the rather sophisticated rig and building a simple, light sharpie hull out of quarter inch plywood to put under it. I figure it will be about 150 lb. lighter than a Snipe, and cheaper to build than a Snipe hull. It should also be a lot dryer, and better suited to daysailing. Materials will cost about $1,200, which is about what a Snipe mast costs.

I won't claim the Snipe is the ideal boat, but if they revised their building standards it could be a contender, mainly because of their strong class organization. The Windmill fits the specs better but the class organization is weaker.

[Ben Fuller]

The 3-5k is the parameter. I think that probably rules out a double hander. What if you stuck a laser rig, a known quantity and relatively inexpensive on a ply hull, perhaps a modernized OK dinghy hull? A laser rig is going to be less expensive than building your own.

Or if you go double hander, club 420 rigs would also be relatively less expensive. Figure out what that costs then what you have left is for the bit that goes underneath.

[johnw]

The Laser rig is one of the options for a design by a formite, the Goat Island Skiff.

But I think the singlehander is actually pretty accessible because of the Laser. I think it's two or more that not accessible.

[Daniel Noyes]

interesting discussion
I like small fast dinghies and several ideas come to mind imediately, but...
like some have mentioned, how does this work, do underprivelaged sailors have to learn boat building also, show up at the Olympics with a heart felt attepts at a boat while rich sailors have their boats built to exacting standards?
I cant think of anything cheaper than a mass produced wind surfing board!

how about a different angle... surely the equipment for olympic sailing ( a 20+-thousand dollar boat) compares well $wise to say the equipment for swiming (olympic size swimming pool) or diving or gymnastics etc... it is just that generally a boat is owned by an individual while facilities are shared...
sounds like a case for more comunity boating and yacht clubs...

Also one of the biggest costs for olympic athleetes is the lost wages from training time, the price of the boat is likely peanuts compared to the lost wages during the time sailing needed to become an olympic contender.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

2012 Olympic Alpha Dory!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3170/3098800687_306cd453ef_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/3098800687/)

[johnw]

In some classes, the boat is provided by the host country. This saves on shipping. And for trials people travel to, I think in most classes people charter a boat at the location of the regatta.

The key is to have an inexpensive class for people to race in their home country, and a selection process that doesn't put too great a price tag on participation.

[johnw]

It seems to me that what's needed is not a cheap boat that can race in the Olympics, but a class or classes for club racing that are cheap. When people get to the point where they are beating everyone in the local class, they can move up to an Olympic class. So maybe what we need to promote is club racing that develops talent.

I'm thinking the solution may be not in the type of boats we sail, but in the way we train sailors.

It seems to me that one reason yachting is considered exclusive is that it can be fairly expensive to belong to a yacht club. It may cost more to provide a track for training runners than to provide boats for kids to sail, but schools build those tracks. Maybe yacht clubs need to reach out, not just to the children of their members, but to local schools. That's a way the sport could grow, while losing some of the whiff of hereditary privilege that comes of having the children of owners of big yachts competing in the small yachts.

[rbgarr]

The local YC junior sailing program here has scholarships for five local residents each summer. The club I taught at in the seventies was mostly town (vs. gown) kids.

A number of Maine High Schools have active programs. This article is a year and a half old and the programs have become even more widely spread: http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=111303&ac=PHspt

[johnw]

That's good. At the yacht club where I taught in the '70s it was all members' kids.

[Carl Cramer]

Thanks, all. Great thoughts. Following up after two weeks of vacation and sporadic internet connection, and only speaking from me... [I'll defer to your greater minds]

Let's take the Olympics out of the equation. There's too much political bullsh*t there to make any serious "improvement" possible. And it's not a row I am going to hoe... So, let fly at the Laser -- She's a great boat but can be improved upon 30 years later.

What I find appealing from your comments above:

* A box rule, or set for different sizes; and,
* using existing rigs for one-designs.

Let's keep the costs down; let's make them economical to build.

So, for solo, maybe max $3K, standard Laser rig; max 12' LOA and come up with a box for weight (boat and sailor), beam, draft, number of foils; retractable bowsprits as part of the LOA?. The hull has to be wooden.

Move the box in 2-3' LOA increments with commensurate increases in budgets (but always keep economical), rigs, etc. Keep within dinghy standards, so Im guessing nothing longer than... 18 feet LOA?

And move the deadline long after the 2009 WoodenBoat Show. When? Designs on paper and build and display(s)of prototypes? I'm still shooting for the WOOD Regatta somewhere southern US in spring 2010.

All boats will be measured by their boxes, and will race under Portsmouth.

Back to you, and thanks so much, Carl Oh, and Footys. Sure, I'm game for the WB Show 2009. I had hoped to find a wooden kit last year but was unsuccessful. One-design or open? We'll need a measurer.... A different thread (Footys at the WoodenBoat Show? I'll start tomorrow.)

[Carl Cramer]

Thanks, John. Yes, I'm familiar with your event. I believe that style event (then called the "Sika Challenge") was introduced at the Wooden Boat Show late in the '70s. It's nice to see it's still being used.

Our recent objection to it -- too many "boats" ending up in dumpsters at the conclusion of the event. But many great thoughts and ideas.

From the Sika Challenge, we evolved into Family BoatBuilding, which I believe the CWB also uses now. All great efforts. The more we get "grassroots," the better off we'll all be. And the WOOD Regatta as well, as a hosting place, in some way or another. And -- not the exclusion of any of the above -- now perhaps a natural progression?

Best, Carl





I still don't have a picture of what kind of boat you're looking for. Since the Laser and sailboards are relatively inexpensive, Are you looking for a two-man or three-man dinghy? And is the cost you're talking about for materials for a home-built vessel, or a ready-to-race price? Are we talking about Windmill level performance and goodies, or 49er level stuff?

Here's a thought. Decide whether you want a simple boat or something with trapezes, spinnakers, etc. Decide how many people will be in the boat. Then hold a competition something like the Center for Wooden Boats' Quick & Daring Boatbuilding contest. Here are the rules:



There are some scoring categories that are just about giving folks a good show, like showmanship and originality, that could be eliminated. I've been judging this contest for about a dozen years, and I've seen some nice boats produced in a day. You'd have to specify that any plywood used by marine ply, but it might even turn out that wood's not the cheapest material.

[Carl Cramer]

Thanks so much, John. Thanks to Joe Norton, I believe the class rules on construction have been changed and updated. Joe taught us all to build competitive Snipes in wood. And his modern (10 years ago?) wooden Snipes have answered that call. But I am not at all current in their class rules. I just know I had a blast sailing his Snipe here at WB.

Snipes -- great.
Windmills -- great.
for that matter, Mirrors and Shellbacks, great.
Ditto, 110s, 210s, Stars and many more.
But let's star afresh?

This is our opportunity. Thanks, Carl


Of course, almost nobody has the class organization of the Snipe class, but their wood construction standards are out of date, so it's probably impossible to build a double-hulled wood Snipe on minimum weight. I'm giving up on racing my wood Snipe, but I'm keeping the rather sophisticated rig and building a simple, light sharpie hull out of quarter inch plywood to put under it. I figure it will be about 150 lb. lighter than a Snipe, and cheaper to build than a Snipe hull. It should also be a lot dryer, and better suited to daysailing. Materials will cost about $1,200, which is about what a Snipe mast costs.

I won't claim the Snipe is the ideal boat, but if they revised their building standards it could be a contender, mainly because of their strong class organization. The Windmill fits the specs better but the class organization is weaker.

[ChaseKenyon]

Let's take the Olympics out of the equation. There's too much political bullsh*t there to make any serious "improvement" possible. And it's not a row I am going to hoe... So, let fly at the Laser -- She's a great boat but can be improved upon 30 years later.

What I find appealing from your comments above:

* A box rule, or set for different sizes; and,
* using existing rigs for one-designs.

Let's keep the costs down; let's make them economical to build.

So, for solo, maybe max $3K, standard Laser rig; max 12' LOA and come up with a box for weight (boat and sailor), beam, draft, number of foils; retractable bowsprits as part of the LOA?. The hull has to be wooden.

Move the box in 2-3' LOA increments with commensurate increases in budgets (but always keep economical), rigs, etc. Keep within dinghy standards, so Im guessing nothing longer than... 18 feet LOA?

And move the deadline long after the 2009 WoodenBoat Show. When? Designs on paper and build and display(s)of prototypes? I'm still shooting for the WOOD Regatta somewhere southern US in spring 2010.

Carl, I don't know if they are still there but there used to be a few Hamptons, HOD's up at Mt Dessert IS.

I would like to ask you to consider the following input from yours truly.

A strict class with production and homemade boats in plywood, or planking and even glass equally competitive. No Spinakers as that get's into more opportunities for expensive rigging. Sloop rigged and at least one trapeeze. they both help develop sailors for future more technical classes.

A two person racing boat should also have the capacity to take three of even four for a gentle afternoon picnic daysail.

Standardized rigging and limited choice of mast type aluminum hollow solid etc. strict weight and dimension standards for fully rigged ready to sail. When I was a kid racing they tried to do a weight of crew handicap it was a disaster. WEight of fully rigged boat is enough to try and monitor fairly. Strict sail specifications with multiple sources including sail rite or other sail kits.

Ability to handle serious chop and running waves for the size boat. 18 ft is a good size here.

Make it a skipper and crew contest no matter whether you are on limited budget and had to build your own and even sew your won sails or can afford 10K of purchased boat with 10k of extras. the rich and the enterprising poor need a level playing field. So make it as hard as we can to prevent buying a win.


To my mine that eliminates any possibility for a bowsprit. I have been involved with I-14's and they epitomize the techie part of the boats gone haywire with respect to how much money you can invest for a racing edge from the boat.

Basic boat with racing and daysailing capability, no wizbangs but stil with the controls for sail shape to teach the up and coming sailors about shape slot and all. (ex sailing school owner talking).

I still come back to the HOD. As to the portmouth rating yes there are others like the Snipe that are as fast in displacement sailing but cannot be used for picnic days. Not only that but the Protsmouth Yardstick is partly based and not completely compensated for wind speed and local conditions. In the light air and heavy chop of the lower Chesapeake there are few opportunities to get an HOD up on a plane. It was however designed as a planing hull and will come up relatively easy if exposed to New England and Midwest levels of wind. Once the HOD is on Plane get out of the way. So in evaluation of your criterion do not over relate to the Portsmouth Yardstick in choosing a one design that will hopefully breed future competitive and even olympic level sailors.

I will try and find the picture of my old 173 down on the great salt pond in Charlestown, RI. I was up on plane with youngest brother and dad and mom could not keep up in the 14 skiff with the 9.9 Mercury OB on it. they were planing too just not going as fast as Craig and I were. In 1972 when I was in the Navy, sialing out of Virginia Beach with my chief who introduced me to HODs we were on a perfect low chop great wind day, able to drop his 11 year old daughter off the stern and tow her on water skis.
Plus the designs for templates and building jigs exist and could be an extra sheet of the prints. THat would give both pro and amature builders even ground.

factory or home built boat mast sails = in racing.
daysailer or racer
easy to build
technically challenging for skipper and crew
no $$$ win technology over the amature with a slim wallet.
existing class with proven specs and rules.
At least one trapeeze
good in heavy chop/seas and light air both
easily towed by small four cylinder cars (1968 Beatle)
Quick to rig
beachable
skipper and crew controlable sail shape and slot
fun fun fun to sail without turning into an I-14 level of type A sailing
buildable with ply or plank or whatever wood is local if needed (would require expansion of curtrent rules to include more wood species options as long as final boat weight and center of mass specs are met). Curent rules already address those very issues to keep the jplaying field level.

Ok I am done now.:D

CHase

P.S. I'd almost move back to the tidewater zone jsut to be part of an active HOD fleet. I'd rather start one up or ressurect the one thtat was up here in the northeast.:cool:

[DGentry]

So, to improve on the Laser, with a 12' LOA max., we'd certainly just go straight to the last of the pre-foiler Moths. These hulls can be made from tortured plywood, cold molded ply or as strippers, and one could easily add the extra foot in length if you really felt the need. There won't be any bowsprits or trapeze because you specify the standard Laser rig.

The Moth-ers (after decades and decades of very expensive development) have pretty much already come up with the (currently) best hull shape within these parameters, and, if one goes with a wooden hull and a Laser rig, then the costs are certainly do-able within $3k.

Maybe a catamaran, though, as previously suggested? But, for a mono, this challenge has, again, already been met and won. Putting a Laser rig on a pre-existing Moth, and sailing it to its potential, will win the racing. I don't think that deserves to win a design contest.

And, why use the Portsmouth system? For the "Laser improvement" challenge you already have a one-design rule - 12' LOA, Laser rig, $3k max, no hydrofoils. Any designs submitted to this rule should be raced head to head.

I suppose it should be raced against a Laser, as well, since this is supposed to be an improvement? I guess what I don't get is how making a smaller wooden boat that costs basically the same as a Laser, and is rigged the same as a Laser, but isn't as universally prolific or as well organized as a Laser, is going to be an improvement.


Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult . . . I do think coming up with a design challenge is a good idea :D!

[Carl Cramer]

Great thoughts. What do the rest of you think?

There are pre-existing classes (such as the Hampton, Snipe, etc.).

My hopes: New developments in design and construction, within pre-determined budgets.

And let's then race, handicapped (Portsmouth for lack of a better rule) with pre-existing boats as well as new-designs and -builds. Not perfect, but a great kickoff to the next evolution.

We can discuss rating formulas, but as secondary to the more challenging aspects. If Portsmouth doesn't address this new generation, we can change it. A new thread?

Thanks, Carl



So, to improve on the Laser, with a 12' LOA max., we'd certainly just go straight to the last of the pre-foiler Moths. These hulls can be made from tortured plywood, cold molded ply or as strippers, and one could easily add the extra foot in length. There won't be any bowsprits or trapeze because you specify the standard Laser rig.

The Moth-ers (after decades and decades of very expensive development) have pretty much already come up with the (currently) best hull shape within these parameters, and, if one goes with a wooden hull and a Laser rig, then the costs are certainly do-able within $3k.

Maybe a catamaran, though, as previously suggested? But, for a mono, it's all been done. Putting a Laser rig on a pre-existing Moth, and sailing it to its potential, will win the racing. I don't think it deserves to win a design contest.

And, why the Portsmouth rating? For the "Laser improvement," you already have a one-design rule - 12' LOA, Laser rig, $3k max, no hydrofoils. Any designs submitted to this rule should be raced head to head.

I do think coming up with a design challenge is a good idea :D!

[johnw]

Yeah, the picnic boat aspect is part of why I decided to design a new hull for my Snipe rig.

I'm using a Snipe rig because I already own it. A new Snipe mast costs about $1,200, and a suit of competitive sails can cost as much again. That means the rig and sails can cost twice as much as the materials for building my boat.

If I were starting new with the rig, I'd probably not design a sloop. The luff tension required tends to complicate the rig. I'd go with a una, stick-up or cat yawl rig. I'd use solid wood, possibly wrapped with cloth & epoxy. I'd use something other than standard sail cloth. Maybe clear plastic tarp, wrapped around the mast so that you'd have a thicker foil and no mast turbulence.

[johnw]

By the way, I don't think a length limit is the way to go. I can build my boat, which will be about 17'8", for less than I can build a Snipe hull. Sometimes, length is the cheapest thing about the boat.

[Carl Cramer]

And, D -- You're right. Designing within the box means racing with no handicap. But racing against existing classes will require it. We can accommodate both...

I love the Moth, and all its evolutions. But, foil-less and with a Laser rig, I'm sure Paul Biecker among others, can improve upon it.

And that is what this is all about. Let's separate monos from multis, and be open to both?

I'm just trying to start something here which I believe (and hope) is important. But I rely on you for help. So I appreciate all your ideas. That's the critical beginning. Fire away.



So, to improve on the Laser, with a 12' LOA max., we'd certainly just go straight to the last of the pre-foiler Moths. These hulls can be made from tortured plywood, cold molded ply or as strippers, and one could easily add the extra foot in length. There won't be any bowsprits or trapeze because you specify the standard Laser rig.

The Moth-ers (after decades and decades of very expensive development) have pretty much already come up with the (currently) best hull shape within these parameters, and, if one goes with a wooden hull and a Laser rig, then the costs are certainly do-able within $3k.

Maybe a catamaran, though, as previously suggested? But, for a mono, it's all been done. Putting a Laser rig on a pre-existing Moth, and sailing it to its potential, will win the racing. I don't think it deserves to win a design contest.

And, why the Portsmouth rating? For the "Laser improvement," you already have a one-design rule - 12' LOA, Laser rig, $3k max, no hydrofoils. Any designs submitted to this rule should be raced head to head.

I do think coming up with a design challenge is a good idea :D!

[ChaseKenyon]

Hi Carl,


There are pre-existing classes (such as the Hampton, Snipe, etc.).

My hopes: New developments in design and construction, within pre-determined budgets.

And let's then race, handicapped (Portsmouth for lack of a better rule) with pre-existing boats as well as new-designs and -builds. Not perfect, but a great kickoff to the next evolution.

We can discuss rating formulas, but as secondary to the more challenging aspects. If Portsmouth doesn't address this new generation, we can change it. A new thread?


I am seeing two different challenges here now.

one a design challenge and the other a sailor development clas that is cost and funding leveled to bring more home builders and sialing not rich folks out on the water.

For the design challenge lets go back to Herreshoffs rating system for get the ior and portsmouth.

Make it a standard rig "like the HOD that can be bought for under $1000 kit from sail rite and add a spinaker like from a 505 or soling or whatever as long as there are plenty of used ones around.

Max length 21 ft min length 18 crew of at least 2 and picnic ability for 4 adults.

What can you design made out of wood as the primary material,that can use the standard rig and win???????

Place a build $$$ limit in US and Euros and let the chips fly.

Foils? planing? Semi V hull with areated shingle steps for planing like the 30s power hydroplanes?

I am already visualizing using the drop chines like an Alaskan River racer to trap air and then routing air channels from the high pressure pocket to the multi steps of the shingled bottom to create air ride to reduce friction and hull drage to an absolute minumum. I'll take the leeway heading up to the windward mark and travel twice the distance and still beat you to the mark.


lol


would love to talk to you live, also Clint Chase.

You are both not that far away from here at lake Sunapee.

603 938 5282

Can jcall you if needed.

[Hwyl]

Why are we even allowing space for Hampton Boats and Snipes, someone will be suggesting cotton sails and wooden masts soon. Actually wooden masts are cool. But you know what I mean.

Let's allow some post millenium thinking in here.

[johnw]

Thanks, John. Yes, I'm familiar with your event. I believe that style event (then called the "Sika Challenge") was introduced at the Wooden Boat Show late in the '70s. It's nice to see it's still being used.

Our recent objection to it -- too many "boats" ending up in dumpsters at the conclusion of the event. But many great thoughts and ideas.

From the Sika Challenge, we evolved into Family BoatBuilding, which I believe the CWB also uses now. All great efforts. The more we get "grassroots," the better off we'll all be. And the WOOD Regatta as well, as a hosting place, in some way or another. And -- not the exclusion of any of the above -- now perhaps a natural progression?

Best, Carl

To get rid of the dumpster boats, I instituted this change in scoring:

Design Worth Keeping 0-200

That's a pretty large chunk of points, and has changed the contest for the better. A dumpster boat can still win if everyone else sinks, of course. That happened a couple years ago. Most of the time, the winner is at least interesting, and sometimes could be practical.

[rbgarr]

I'm chuckling over the budget aspect of this comp. Boat owners and builders are notoriously (shall we be nice and say) 'shy' when it comes to revealing what's spent on boats. It will probably have to be honor system, won't it?

[johnw]

With the quick & daring, we require receipts.

[John Meachen]

The pre-foiling Moth is a bit of a red herring as Moths are notoriously difficult to sail.I once lent one of mine to a competent sailor who couldn't get into it and after 45 minutes,gave up trying.The Snipe was designed a long time ago and while water hasn't changed much since,construction techniques have evolved and we ought to be able to do a bit better.I would be tempted to try something along the lines of a John Spencer Cherub and expand it to about fifteen feet in length and drop a 505 rig into it.

[rbgarr]

Carl,

Are you aware of any rules or limitations regarding the WOOD Regatta yet? I'd hate to come up with something that doesn't qualify.

[Carl Cramer]

Oh, there won't be any rules or limitations -- except that the boats will need to be wooden, and have the ability to launch (and haul) from a trailer.

[SHClark]

Carl ET Al.
One problem with these conversations is the fact that everyone wants the world to form a nice circle around the ideas that they have decided are best. "Be reasonable, do it my way."
I could easily suggest that the IC as currently defined is exactly what the doctor ordered not because I would make any money off of it, but because I have been trying to get more people to sail these little lovelies for years and it would stroke my ego to win converts. So we all have to accept that have something of a competition between those who care to see who gets ahead even if that success isn't measured in dollars.

Having been at this a while, it seems that what is really needed is a ton of enthusiasm. People have to be willing to undertake the new project, which means buying into the adventure, which means either undertaking something new or delaying or abandoning a project they had planned.
There are lots of ways of arriving at an answer to various questions, but from my point of view the ideal boat is evocative, has some sort of context in history, and offers some feature of performance that is not duplicated in the "main stream" of existing classes.
There are a few boats that fit this description (the IC being one of the best) but I think we should be thinking about a two person boat that has a less demanding learning curve.
My current hobbyhorse is the old Suicide Class ( or 125 square foot development class.)
This class was started by Billy Atkin with the following very simple set of rules:
LOA -unrestricted
Beam -3'6">5'6"
Draft- unrestricted
Sail Area-125 ft^2
Crew of two.
Pointy Bow ( 40 degrees either side of Center line)
Planking thicker than 5/16"
Decking thicker than 3/16" must have one cockpit

Over the years items got added:
LOA restricted to 18'>22'6"
Free board had to be greater than 6" everywhere on the boat ( Loaded with crew aboard)
Mast cross section < 5"
Boom cross section < 3.5"
One centerboard, must be unballasted, capable of being pulled up so as to not stick down below the hull skin.
One rudder, same restrictions as the centerboard.
Planking was allowed to shrink to 1/4" plywood for chined hulls.
Ultimately they dropped the ban on hiking assists and allowed a single trapeze.

There is much that has merit here. These boats were devilishly quick, but pretty accessable. The bea, while narrow, is still enough for reasonable stability, particularly with modernlight weight masts and sails. By controling the skin thickess, you more or less controled weight because a larger wider boat HAD to weigh more than a smaller narrower one. There are some fabulous designs such as Flutterby which would make great open boats for sailing and rowing. In the mid 60s the boats had a streamlined torpedo shape that was pure horiness, and yet these boats were challenged effectively by designs like Banchee, which looks about like what would happen if you stretched a Snipe to 22' and made it weigh 100 pounds less.

I would probably screw around with some of the values and wording if I were trying to breath life back into this in order to make it possible for boats that fit other one design or development rules to qualifty as Suicides, but general idea is there.

A final point concerns the cost of doing things. For most of the participants in an adventure like this, building is more than half the fun. One shouldn't try to limit materials so that the builders have to suffer through trying to do nice work with lousy materials, it's more fun to do one's best work instead of ones dirtiest. We should welcome the sleazy quick and easy, but we shouldn't mandate it.
Once again, what is needed is a loud "Hell Yeah!" from a large number of people.
Listening with interest
Steve Clark

[Carl Cramer]

Thanks, Steve. Good points all. Are you still in Oz?

My best wishes to you, Carl

[Carl Cramer]

Thanks, Chase. I just left a voice message on your phone....




Hi Carl,



I am seeing two different challenges here now.

one a design challenge and the other a sailor development clas that is cost and funding leveled to bring more home builders and sialing not rich folks out on the water.

For the design challenge lets go back to Herreshoffs rating system for get the ior and portsmouth.

Make it a standard rig "like the HOD that can be bought for under $1000 kit from sail rite and add a spinaker like from a 505 or soling or whatever as long as there are plenty of used ones around.

Max length 21 ft min length 18 crew of at least 2 and picnic ability for 4 adults.

What can you design made out of wood as the primary material,that can use the standard rig and win???????

Place a build $$$ limit in US and Euros and let the chips fly.

Foils? planing? Semi V hull with areated shingle steps for planing like the 30s power hydroplanes?

I am already visualizing using the drop chines like an Alaskan River racer to trap air and then routing air channels from the high pressure pocket to the multi steps of the shingled bottom to create air ride to reduce friction and hull drage to an absolute minumum. I'll take the leeway heading up to the windward mark and travel twice the distance and still beat you to the mark.


lol


would love to talk to you live, also Clint Chase.

You are both not that far away from here at lake Sunapee.

603 938 5282

Can jcall you if needed.

[SHClark]

Carl:
I haven't been in OZ for a year, but what of that.
Another thought: If we wanted to promote designs that were dual use, we could have the following sentence in the rules or as part of the Championship NOR: "The Race Committee, at their sole discretion, may permit the use of oars and/or paddles."
Which would pretty much demand that the boats be good pulling boats capable of being rowed double braced.
Making boats like LFH's Dragonfly and Waimarie much more attractive.
It would also permit a type of point to point racing that is more amusing than digging ruts around bouys.
SHC

[Carl Cramer]

Thanks for your good comments, Steve. I thought I had already replied, but I guess not... Are you still in OZ?

The Suicide is a great idea. I haven't been in one in years.

For those of you who want Windmils, Hamptons, etc., the WOOD Regatta is a fine venue for you. But for the purpose of this design challenge, let's come up either with a new design or a developmental class.

Just my two cents, and I greatly appreciate of of your ideas. Thanks, Carl

[rbgarr]

Flutterby was an exciting boat. She was at the Maine Maritime Museum's Apprenticeshop in the 70s, but I've lost track of her. Seth Persson built nice Suicides also. He had one sitting in storage in the 70s.

The Hobie 14 has a mainsail of 118 sq. ft. and there are plenty of used boats available for short money. The rig from one of those would do alright for those pursuing reasonable prices. If I get Hell Yeah-ish I'm going that way!

[johnw]

The Snipe rig has 127 square feet of sail including the roach, about 110 without. Would that be allowed as a Suicide rig?

[SHClark]

The measured sail area of any class depends quite a bit on how the measurements are taken. For example the IC uses successive triangulation until the altitude gets down to 150mm, then applies .66 base X altitude. But they then allow a fairly significant fudge factor to account for luff round, so while the class sail area rule says "10 square meters" the actual measured sail area is really 10.6 square meters. Other classes average a the foot length, the half and quarter girths and multiply that by the luff length. Measure one sail two ways and you will get 2 answers! So you need to define the measurement process. Fortunately there are lots of templates. The Suicides had some pretty strict ways of measuring area which other sail area classes don't use.

It might be that the Snipe rig was just fine or that you have to snip a bit off the foot of the jib or maybe we just don't care that much at first. The ability to recycle one design sails is a good thing, but long term shouldn't be a deal breaker.

On the other hand, most two man hikers have sail areas "around" 125 square feet, so with some mixing and matching of mains and jibs I would guess one could get pretty pretty quick.
On the other hand, a rig purpose designed for the boat should be better and we should expect people to want to build good rigs. And in the interest of making cool boats, should let them.
SHC

[johnw]

I like development classes, but they usually end up being expensive, so I'm not sure what they have to do with the problem we're trying to solve. Might be better to have trials based on the criteria, then pick out a new one-design.

[Ben Fuller]

Having recently shipped Steve copies of my files on Suicides or 125 sq footers I echo interest. They were called Development Class and got the Suicide name during prohibition because most were named for particularily leathal cocktails. If you have access to the 3ed edition of Mystic's Watercraft you will see Butterfly the mate to Flutterby ( LFH Design 30) 18 x 5, Pig in a Bag 20 x 5 NGH 1149 which has the Amphicraft style side decks and a stern deck and rudder like a Coquina. Rigged for rowing with two and five mast steps for various rigs. And a smaller one 16 x 4'10" by a friend of LFH, William Strawbridge. These are all pretty nice boats. This type could be done glued lap and would be considerably more sophisticated than most of the designs now out there.

[Carl Cramer]

Thanks, Ben and Steve,

Is there a website for Suicides? I spent about an hour today and couldn't find one on Gooooogle.

Steve - Sorry, I thought I read a posting today from you on SA, saying you were in Oz.

I still think new design and build ideas, with existing rigs and box rules, might be an exciting development [pardon the expression]. I'll try to spend some time this weekend coming up with the draft of a starting point, unless you want to take the lead.

The more input = the best output.

I still have the IC "Stiff Woodie" that Steve procured for me a year and a half ago. Sadly, the big boat gets in the way of her use, and the waters here in Maine haven't benefitted from any warming. But I remain so committed to dinghies. Let's just, please, make this new one SIMPLE. Simple in concept, and simple in design and build.

Thanks, Carl

[SHClark]

picture of mid 60s Suicide.
Update one or two things and I think you have a very cool boat.

http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/commerce/c015148.jpg
SHC

[davidagage]

Atkin's Speculation is a fine suicide class design

Speculation (http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/Speculation.html)

There was a gent here in FL , Vernon Hunt, that was building one and then sort of dropped out of sight, looks like he hasn't logged on in a year!...

DG

[rbgarr]

Are these the up-to-date Suicide class rules? If so, I'm all for them. Thought and experience show in the drafting:

LOA -unrestricted
Beam -3'6">5'6"
Draft- unrestricted
Sail Area-125 ft^2
Crew of two.
Pointy Bow ( 40 degrees either side of Center line)
Planking thicker than 5/16"
Decking thicker than 3/16" must have one cockpit

Over the years items got added:
LOA restricted to 18'>22'6"
Free board had to be greater than 6" everywhere on the boat ( Loaded with crew aboard)
Mast cross section < 5"
Boom cross section < 3.5"
One centerboard, must be unballasted, capable of being pulled up so as to not stick down below the hull skin.
One rudder, same restrictions as the centerboard.
Planking was allowed to shrink to 1/4" plywood for chined hulls.
Ultimately they dropped the ban on hiking assists and allowed a single trapeze.

[SHClark]

I would adjust one or two things for clarification and to make things a bit more up to date. For example I would tag weight to hull size instead of simply calling a minimum thickness. (Measuring skin thickness involves a drill, which is kind of offensive and thus hard to enforce.)
I will post a draft if people are keen.
SHC

[johnw]

I've been in love with the Suicide Class for years, but I don't see how it fits the original brief:


Andrew was praising and also criticizing the ISAF (the international sailing federation responsible for, among items, Olympic sailboat classes) for their selection of expensive dinghies for the Olympics, and the ramifications to less-opulent nations.

And now I am quoting him directly: ".. further down the pyramid, the ISAF overlooks the grass roots at its peril; many commentators around the world were busily bashing Olympic sailing during the Qingdao Regatta because of its perceived lack of access.

"Even sailing's most eloquent ambassador[sic: s?] cannot defend the sport, when asked how easy it is for the less economically fortunate to try sailing, compared to, say, track and field. It is this, rather than continually repackaging a perceived elitist regatta for live TV (for which sailing is completely unsuited, edited highlights will always be better), that should be concerning ISAF.

"Have a look at the options, have a look at some of the cheaper, plywood-based skiff-types that are right now being created in garages across America and elsewhere, then launch a budget design initiative. Then give your new class a big championship and see what emerges."


A development class with no restrictions on materials? The boats will be expensive. People will use exotic materials to make them light in the ends. There will be the usual arms race and the last people who might be competitive will be the people this initiative is supposed to be for. By all means, revive the Suicide class, but don't fool yourself into thinking it will produce a generation Usain Bolts. You're more likely to do that with plywood one-designs with wooden masts.

[Carl Cramer]

Thanks, John. Well, you're right, of course. But we should be multifaceted. The Suicide would not be to the exclusion of others. I'm sure Steve will come up with some good parameters, along with input and comments from the rest of us.

[Don Kurylko]

I’m with John: All wooden construction, all wooden spars, no fiberglass. Make it challenging for the designers to keep it simple and cost effective.

[johnw]

Just out of curiosity, are plans available anywhere for those '60s Suicides? I notice they rate almost as fast as a Flying Dutchman on Portsmouth Yardstick.

http://www.ussailing.org/portsmouth/tables08/tables08cb.asp

[rbgarr]

I would adjust one or two things for clarification and to make things a bit more up to date. For example I would tag weight to hull size....
I will post a draft if people are keen.
SHC

Not sure what the tagging weight to hull size means: an eighteen footer can't weigh less than X, a nineteen footer less than X+Y, etc.?

I'm baffled by the complexity of contradictory rules that are being considered: no composites, must have a certain number of crew (or not), can't be ballasted, worry about costs, must be a development class, but no it should be a one-design, etc. :rolleyes:

Doesn't a budget amount as the criteria suffice to encourage the widest possible range of design ideas? Does it really matter which boat is fastest? None of them go really fast anyway, and so what if one boat outpaces another by as much as 50%. Isn't encouraging original ideas the object here, if there are any which haven't been thought of yet?

Am I being dense?

[johnw]

Not sure what the tagging weight to hull size means: an eighteen footer can't weigh less than X, a nineteen footer less than X+Y, etc.?

I'm baffled by the complexity of contradictory rules that are being considered: no composites, must have a certain number of crew (or not), can't be ballasted, worry about costs, must be a development class, but no it should be a one-design, etc. :rolleyes:

Doesn't a budget amount as the criteria suffice to encourage the widest possible range of design ideas? Does it really matter which boat is fastest? None of them go really fast anyway, and so what if one boat outpaces another by as much as 50%. Isn't encouraging original ideas the object here, if there are any which haven't been thought of yet?

Am I being dense?

Yeah, if the goal was speed, I'd buy an airline ticket. That's why I'm thinking one-design. Have some competition to come up with the right design, something dead simple to build, and settle on a design.

[rbgarr]

Yeah, if the goal was speed, I'd buy an airline ticket. That's why I'm thinking one-design. Have some competition to come up with the right design, something dead simple to build, and settle on a design.

"Settle on a (right) design": to what end? Is the idea that boats can be proven out on paper, built as one designs and then raced? Sounds boring to me. I'd rather take the risk of actually building and then sailing my own ideas.

[johnw]

But how do you do that, and still cover the original brief?

[rbgarr]

The brief is to meet the budget with a design, just plans, a kit package or an actual build, at least if I understand Carl correctly:

...launch a budget design initiative.

We will take up those challenges here in the Forum. High-performance wooden sailing skiffs. Separate prizes for plans, kits, and, separately, for manufactured wooden skiffs. Winners chosen by Forum votes. Say a deadline of June 1, 2009. Winning plans and/or a full version hopefully at the WoodenBoat Show 2009 (June 26-28, in Mystic, CT).

The gist: Low-cost; easy-to-build or buy. High-performance, but not out of the reach of economically challenged countries or people. Set a limit of, say, $3-5K/boat, fully outfitted. But bonus point if your design/plan comes in less than that. [Then give your new class a big championship and see what emerges.]

I placed that last sentence in brackets because that seems to beyond the capability of a competition of this sort. It would be nice if a boat that proved out became popular, but that's beyond the purview of a design competition, isn't it?

I agree more with Ben Fuller on the details, except that I'd leave it to the designer/builder to select among the second hand rig of their choice, if they want to minimize those costs:

The 3-5k is the parameter. I think that probably rules out a double hander. What if you stuck a Laser rig, a known quantity and relatively inexpensive on a ply hull, perhaps a modernized OK Dinghy hull? A Laser rig is going to be less expensive than building your own.

Or if you go double hander, Club 420 rigs would also be relatively less expensive. Figure out what that costs then what you have left is for the bit that goes underneath.

[Carl Cramer]

The brief is to meet the budget with a design, just plans, a kit package or an actually build, at least if I understand Carl correctly:

...launch a budget design initiative.

We will take up those challenges here in the Forum. High-performance wooden sailing skiffs. Separate prizes for plans, kits, and, separately, for manufactured wooden skiffs. Winners chosen by Forum votes. Say a deadline of June 1, 2009. Winning plans and/or a full version hopefully at the WoodenBoat Show 2009 (June 26-28, in Mystic, CT).

The gist: Low-cost; easy-to-build or buy. High-performance, but not out of the reach of economically challenged countries or people. Set a limit of, say, $3-5K/boat, fully outfitted. But bonus point if your design/plan comes in less than that. [Then give your new class a big championship and see what emerges.]

I placed that last sentence in brackets because that seems to beyond the capability of a competition of this sort. It would be nice if a boat that proved out became popular, but that's beyond the purview of a design competition, isn't it?

I agree more with Ben Fuller on the details, except that I'd leave it to the designer/builder to select among the second hand rig of their choice, if they want to minimize those costs:

The 3-5k is the parameter. I think that probably rules out a double hander. What if you stuck a Laser rig, a known quantity and relatively inexpensive on a ply hull, perhaps a modernized OK Dinghy hull? A Laser rig is going to be less expensive than building your own.

Or if you go double hander, Club 420 rigs would also be relatively less expensive. Figure out what that costs then what you have left is for the bit that goes underneath.

All's good, and thanks. I guess what I'm hoping for here is multiple designs we can all embrace, design/build/and sail. And I'm asking you for guidance: I offered the idea of a box rule, with maybe a low-end 12-footer with a max of $3-$5K single-hander. For a double-hander, let's set a cost limit of .. what? $7.5K?

I'm heartily aboard the Suicide at the two-crew level. Steve Clark, genius in all matters dinghy, worked on this today, and to me, it has much merit. He doesn't want to restrict it to wood, and that's OK. It's got a great weight calc, and I'm sure we (woodies) can prove to be competitive with boats of other materials.

Actually, this deserves its own thread so we can continue the original goal while also dedicating serious discussion to this particular class (the Suicide, now refined as the Atkin 1.25 = I love it, especially since we announced we're honoring Billy, John, and Pat at the WoodenBoat Show this year.)

I don't mind a bit if we come up with 4-6 similar approaches to other sizes. As Steve has said, LET'S GET EXCITED! Otherwise, nothing will fly. Let's not get beyond crew-of-two in any case.

So I'll post Steve's parameters on a new thread here, Suicide/Atkin 1.25. Me, I'm thinking of starting with LFH's approach with Design #30 (Cat ketch/yawl rig). I'm sure the main-and-jib-only will win, and that's fine. We are here to learn and try.

Thanks so much, Carl

[johnw]

If you're talking about the one with double luffs, he said it beat the sloop with the same hull. There's some information on it in 'The Common Sense of Yacht Design.'

Would a Laser rig forward and a Laser Radial rig aft qualify?

[Carl Cramer]

The Laser rig is.. 76/86? sq ft as I recall. I'm fine with stretching it to 127 sq ft for Snipes, but then we lose the history. Steve? I like the symmetry of the 1.25. Let's figure out an easy way to measure roach. Anyone have a planimeter anymore?

Just cut down the Snipe rig a bit? Not a lot of roach there as I recall.

If I remember correctly, there was one (LFH?) with five different mast steps for two rigs.

What's our budget? Are you OK with $7.5K?

Thanks, Carl

[johnw]

I think Laser is 76 and Laser Radial is 50, but memory doesn't always serve.

Edited to add, I'm not sure the masts would be strong enough for a two-up boat with a trapeze or sliding seat.

[Carl Cramer]

Well, Steve said one trapeze, and we can all engineer that, I would. But this is all open to discussion.

I hope there is no confusion: Steve has taken the top-of-the-limit approach with a double-hander. I still submit we can all design and build these top-performing within budgets, which was the original intent. If we can do so with existing rigs, all the better. So, my forumla is this:

Boat design + performance = cost limit.

Let's get the highest performance we can, within limits we'll specify here on the Forum, and with cost limits as well for each. Each design should be within the build-limits of anyone in every country. Yes, cedar (say) costs less here than in Zimbabwe (by way of example), but let's not make that a hinderance. Let's just come up with parameters of the rule, as Steve has done so admirably.

Rule-beaters will be shot.

Thanks, Carl

[johnw]

I'm not so sure about the trapeze. Unless, of course, you are dropping the plan to have a dual-purpose boat that can take a family on a picnic. I don't see a boat with a sufficiently powerful rig and slick hull to benefit from a trapeze being a boat a family will take out on a daysail. And if it is a trapeze boat, it's a single-purpose racing boat that fits the elite image.

If you want a pure racing boat, go for it, and allow sliding seats as well as trapezes so that boats with unstayed masts can be competetive.

Now, about the rigs. I'm a bookseller by trade, and as a consequence live in a state of gentile poverty. Restoring an old Snipe got me back into dinghy racing, and I was able to buy a $1200 mast for $500 used, and get my first suite of sails for about $300 used. But if I were building new, I would build with a higher-aspect rig than was the style in 1931. And I could build a wooden mast for less than $500. So let's say we allow certain class rigs in, and maybe allow a couple square feet extra in recognition of the age and infirmity of the designs, and let people also build new with wooden masts or perhaps untapered aluminum masts.

So are we on two tracks now, or one? Are we designing an all-purpose boat that can be raced, plus a pure racing boat?

By the way, I like requiring the centerboard to float. Metal centerboards are one thing I don't like about Snipes. Every time someone accidentally float tests one, the same thing happens...

[rbgarr]

Two tracks afaik: one is the Atkins 1.25, for which there seems to be a budding enthusiasm, and the other(s) are proposed classes in this thread.

[Carl Cramer]

Thanks for all your great thoughts.

The original intent was to stimulate discussion and -- as Steve said -- enthusiasm -- and design and construction and racing of a series of:

RACING SAILBOATS in the dinghy realm.

* Boats you could design and build and race and prove for yourselves;
* I like box rules, but I can be swayed. Secondarily, I'd like to see these all race against each other (12-footers vs. 18-footers) in something similar to Portsmouth.
* Nit-picking drives me crazy. Come up with easy rules that give us enough room to work within. Establish cost-limits as the first parameter. Let the rest flow from there. Look for high-performance within each parameter, and assume DIY construction. And let's keep her in wood but be open to others. Establish minimum LOAs, BOAs, drafts, max/min displacement and SA. Let's not look at rule-cheaters but as good boats. (I'm not sure how we mandate that, but it's important.)

Within box rules, I'd say:

* 12-footer
* 14-footer
* 16-footer
* 18 footer
* 20-footer
but I'd also like to see 8- and 10-footers as well.

Steve, where does the Atkin 1.25 fit? She can have her own category --as she deserves.

Thanks, Carl

The Atkin 1.25

[Don Kurylko]

Carl, a 15’ class might be better than a 16’ if you want to make the most efficient and cost effective use of two lengths of plywood to sheath the hull.

[johnw]

I'm sure you can make your 16 footer 15 1/2 feet and still be allowed to race.

[Don Kurylko]

Yeah, but that kind of penalizes the plywood designers/builders and I’m sure they will want to build to the maximum length allowed. It means that they will then need to scarph in an additional (tiny) panel of plywood to achieve that. It’s no big deal, I guess, but cost is one of the issues being addressed. It just doesn’t seem like an efficient use of material or time to me.

I’m not attached to this, by the way, merely asking that it be considered.

[SHClark]

Carl:
The executive summery is that I think what I have proposed works for a wide range of boats. The common ground is that they have 125 square feet of sail, which historically has been a pretty standard size sail plan. This is what Atkin was thinking as near as I can tell, take a single parameter and let people determine what was the best combination of other variables was.
Boats under this rule can be any length up to 22 feet long. As they get bigger, they have to get heavier, so there is a kind of balance there. I mean I don't really know what the ideal length for a two person dinghy is. As near as I can tell, length has always been driven by other forces, like class rules, excise taxes, garage size and available trees.
Trying to control what people can spend in a sporting event is a fool's mission. It is like trying to control how hard they try.
It is similarly hard to legislate how hard people are allowed to train. If someone is motivated to spend more they will, even if the gain is only in their perception of how well they are prepared. Often the greatest advantage of overspending is to discourage the competition, and to make them believe that the contest is over before it has begun.
Such conversations always sound like people rationalizing their own lack of interest or motivation. I think it would be great if we could get a enough good class activity together that someone actually cared enough to spend extra money. At this point we haven't even gotten to the point where anyone is willing to do anything!
Finally and ultimately the activity has to be worth the trouble. I may be totally wrong, but I don't see the pages of Woodenboat filled with photos of and articles about cheap ugly things built out of CDX plywood and sheet rock screws. It seems people want to build nice stuff. I'm good at quick and cheerful boat building and can sleaze with the best, but I'm not particularly interested in sailing boxes of pain no matter how cheap they are.
SHC

[johnw]

The most successful approach to keeping costs down is one-design classes. I think what Carl was talking about for the less expensive boat was a selection process for a one-design class. The updated Suicide Class is a separate track for an interesting development rule.

Even within the one-design classes, the pressure is for complication. This is because the people most interested in racing are the ones who are most likely to take part in forming the rules, and they like to have more control. This happens even with Lasers. In the Atkin 1.25, you're already seeing that pressure in the thread -- why not allow spinnakers, bilge boards, etc. The original rule was designed to keep the boats simple.

[SHClark]

I am flipping through the Small Craft chapter of The Common Sense of Yacht Design. The Curmudgeon himself recommends the following classes.
1. Lee Board Tender Class 60 ft^2 ( AKA Laser Radial)
2. Frostbite 72 ft^2 ( AKA Laser sail)
3. Decked Sailing Canoe (few of us take this seriously, but it is the only class that really exists)
4. Development Boats 125 ft^2 For which I have submitted the proposed Atkin 1.25 rules.

If we want to offer more options, the IC exists with building options and class activity. All that is needed is the skill and motivation.

I might be able to piece together a version of the old Frostbite rule. But it might be easier just to come up with some maxs and minimums and see what comes out.

Someone who knows more about tenders than I do ( mine is a Delaware Ducker) could come up with a box for that class.

Just suggestions,
SHC

[johnw]

There is a Frostbite Rule class still sailing. It's called the Penguin. Most people race Lasers instead. I don't think any of these are our low-cost class.

[SHClark]

The Penguin is one example.
Others could be built that were not Penguins.
It is unlikely the Penguin fleet would welcome new designs, but the sailors in the Open frostbite class could welcome Penguin sailors.
Uffa Fox summerizes the rules as follows:
"The length is between 10 ft. 6in. and 11 ft. 6 in. , beam between 58 in. and 52 in. and a minimum depth of 16 in. with a sail of 72 sq.ft. The weight must not be less than 125 lbs. for the stripped hull, or the drop keel to exceed 25 lbs in weight, and all spars must stow inside the dinghy." (Sailing Seamanship and Yacht Construction P. 239)
Seems like a pretty reasonable box rule to me.
There are some further qualities like "towing well" and "rowing well" which i didn't bother to quote because I don't know who in our fallen times would actually judge whether a boat "rowed well enough." Rowing better than half the crap sold as dinghies and inflatables doesn't seem like much of a challenge or definition. Maybe just insisting that the boat shall be capable of being rowed, or say striking the rig and rowing while afloat would be a better choice.
SHC

[Ben Fuller]

The North American Dinghy Association set up in 1932 codified the frostbite rules then being used into 4 box rule classes, with A being the the most general purpose, B being a racing -only dinghy D being a smaller cartop able dinghy etc. Dyer Dinks are an example of D's. Interclubs and Penguins would fit as B dinghies. Penguins were supposed to be a simple one design developed from the B parameters. So they would fit into a dinghy box rule. I suspect that some of the old ones could be built as strippers or glued lap. Peter Vermilya did a nice summary in the 3rd Edition of Watercraft.