A useful question about paint, plucked out of Miscellaneous

[thechemist]

I found this in the middle of a recent thread Over There:

capt jake
.
Member # 4696

posted 09-19-2002 10:27 PM
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Just when I thought you guys were coming around... now to your rooms... and NO desert (or CPES)!!!
Chill out you guys.

BTW, What is the best paint to apply to a epoxy sealed and glassed hull? Ease use is in order, but logevety and price effective paints are in order also.
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Now.

Paint.

Longevity.

Easy to use.

Cheap.

Hah.

Pick any one.

The two-component isocyanate-cured polyurethanes are head-and-shoulders above the rest, for anything not continuously immersed in water.

OF THOSE , the polyester polyurethanes are superior to the acrylic polyurethanes for weather-resistance [combined effects of water and ultraviolet], all other things equal. Now, technically, an acrylic is a kind of polyester, but there are OTHER kinds of polyesters, not made by Rohm & Haas, who is the Acrylic powerhouse, and is pretty much trying to do for coatings technology what Microsoft did for software. Those Other polyesters are the coatings technology upon which is based the paints used on commercial and military aircraft. Them is The Best.

These are also the most expensive, and most difficult to apply, and by difficult I mean that there are more ways to screw it up and a narrower path that must be walked in order that everything go right.

Below those are a bunch of modified or improved-enamel coatings, and below those a somewhat overlapping range of oil-base enamels, and below that a somewhat overlapping range of latices [did you ever wonder what the plural of latex was? Now you know.]

So.

There's paint.

[capt jake]

And I thought I'd do that to change the topic. Good information though. I hope to be to that point real soon. Thanks Chemist! smile.gif

[Art Read]

Errr... Why not "lati"? For that matter, what's wrong with just "latexes"? I just can't see myself walking into the paint store and inquireing about their line of "latices" with a straight face! ;)

[mmd]

Thanks, Chemist. Printed and filed.

[Scott Rosen]

Thanks Chemist. There are a number of people who buy cheapo exterior latex house paint, slap it on everything but the sails, and go for a couple of seasons.

It's not shiny or yachty, but it works for some folks.

Chemist, what are some brand names associated with the military, industrial stuff that you call The Best?

[Donn]

This is a timely thread. I'm starting to plan for a repaint of LOON, from the decks up, and the entire interior. I was just going to use Pettit Easypoxy, because that's been used before, but maybe there are better ways. Questions:

1. All the exterior decks are fiberglassed marine ply with non-skid. The color is very light gray, and as she is a fishing/potting boat, you can imagine how dirty the decks are...particularly the cockpit. The non-skid is in generally good shape. Scour it as clean as possible and just roll on the paint?

2. Most of the exterior and interior bulkheads are white easypoxy...is there a better way to go?

3. The aft bulkhead and doors are varnished mahogany. I'm seriously thinking about painting it white. Pros and cons? It's the only brightwork on the boat, and it would be considerably more work to restore the varnish job.

[Adam C]

Donn, is that you? What happened to your old handle?

Anyways, I used easpoxy, and so far it has been great. What was your experience with the product?

Adam Cultraro

[Dave Fleming]

Adam, like you he came out of the closet and is using his full name. :D

[Donn]

Adam...I can only comment on the easypoxy's longevity. On the hull, it's a 4 1/2 year old paint job..one coat over the old coat. I paid to have it done, and it's held up fine.

The interior and exterior are 5-7 years since their last repaint. The interior of the cabin is in great shape, but the pilothouse interior, with all around windows, is starting to deteriorate, and the exterior definately needs to be done.

The non-slip decks have been 7 years, and while the paint is in better shape than on the exterior bulkheads, the non-skid is badly stained in many spots. Interesting that the paint with the non-skid held up better than without.

Keep in mind that the boat has lived in a boathouse for the last 4 1/2 years. Morning sun hits the bow, and it shows the effects. Next year, the hull gets a repaint.

[ 09-20-2002, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Donn Westervelt ]

[Donn]

Whew! Spent 5 hours reading painting threads this afternoon, and find there is no conclusion. There isn't much about repainting, especially topsides and interiors, and I couldn't find anything about paint instead of varnish on a mahogany bulkhead.

So back to the top with the thread. Current opinions welcomed.

[Dave Fleming]

Don, I have been out of the loop so to speak on painting for some time now so anything I might have to offer would be well...useless.
Changing over from Varnish to Paint on the aft pilot house bulkhead would be some work I'm thinking. Probably best to strip off as much of the varnish as possible to get a good tooth for the paint if you go that route.*
As far as the bow of LOON getting too much weather, why not make up a canvas cover for that area. Nothing fancy but would give you something to do on those cold winter nights. A nice copy of Hervey Garret Smith's, The Arts of a Sailer or similar should give you a leg up on sewing and it is nice and quiet work too.

* Me I am such a fan of that DALY'S oil, I would probably strip sand and give it several coats similar to what I sent you to do with the Teak rails.

[ 09-20-2002, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[Meerkat]

Software developer for 32 years here...


Originally posted by thechemist:
Now, technically, an acrylic is a kind of polyester, but there are OTHER kinds of polyesters, not made by Rohm & Haas, who is the Acrylic powerhouse, and is pretty much trying to do for coatings technology what Microsoft did for software. I sincerely hope Rohm & Haas isn't doing to coatings what Microsoft has done to software: put out a cheap buggy product at inflated prices and trash any semblance of compitition. Some of what MS has done is good - most of it is bad.

BTW TheChemist, do you have any pointers about epoxy? I'm trying to learn about the relative merits of brand-name vs. noname products over in "Cheap Epoxy" in this section.

[JimD]

Originally posted by thechemist:
I found this in the middle of a recent thread Over There:

capt jake
.
Member # 4696

posted 09-19-2002 10:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just when I thought you guys were coming around... now to your rooms... and NO desert (or CPES)!!!
Chill out you guys.

BTW, What is the best paint to apply to a epoxy sealed and glassed hull? Ease use is in order, but logevety and price effective paints are in order also.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now.

Paint.

Longevity.

Easy to use.

Cheap.

Hah.

Pick any one.

The two-component isocyanate-cured polyurethanes are head-and-shoulders above the rest, for anything not continuously immersed in water.

.So, good chemist sir, why don't the isocyante polys do well for bottom paint, and what's your personal pick for below the waterliine?
jimd

[Donn]

Originally posted by meerkat:
Software developer for 32 years here...

I sincerely hope Rohm & Haas isn't doing to coatings what Microsoft has done to software: put out a cheap buggy product at inflated prices and trash any semblance of compitition. Some of what MS has done is good - most of it is bad.

Software user for 40+ years, and system developer for 30+ (and MSFT shareholder since the beginning).

Without Microsoft's software, the state of personal computing in business and home applications would be at least 15 years behind where it is now.

Their domination of the industry is not due to unfair competition, it's due to the fact that their customers like their products.

[thechemist]

Originally posted by Donn Westervelt:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by meerkat:
[qb]Software developer for 32 years here...
<snip>
Without Microsoft's software, the state of personal computing in business and home applications would be at least 15 years behind where it is now.

Their domination of the industry is not due to unfair competition, it's due to the fact that their customers like their products.I would not deny that, now, but early-on it was not like that. Some companies such as Netscape would have disagreed. I seem to recall Microsoft competed with Netscape who initially seemed to have a better product, and ultimately the price war got to where Microsoft gave away their browser to compete with Netscape who was trying to make a buck by selling theirs. Netscape never recovered and Microsoft went on to capture essentially the entire market. Microsoft has virtually the only product, in a large segment of the computer industry, and they captured that market by business practices so aggressive that they earned an antitrust lawsuit.

Rohm & Haas sells acrylic resins used to make latex caulks. They bought Thiokol, a competitor, who made polysulfide resins, and shut down the plant. Now there is no U. S. producer of polysulfide resins. The acrylic latex caulks can be made for a tenth the price, and last a tenth as long, but the consumer does not see the difference if they have only one product on the shelf from which to choose.

[JimConlin]

Seems like i'm the first to mention that there's an elephant in the room.

So, Chemist, which brand(s) of paint?

[Bayboat]

The more frequently the gunk that comes in tubes is called "caulk," the more frequently the uninformed will try to use it in place of caulking cotton or oakum in carvel seams. The only "caulk" for wooden carvel-hulled boats is cotton or oakum. All that gunk in tubes is seam compound or bedding compound or for some other use, but not for caulking. The term for its use as seam compound is "paying." The stuff that turns into something like hard rubber is not good for paying seams.

Shift gears: Here's one for you computer geeks.
Whatever happened to an outfit called "Quicksoft," which sold an inexpensive but very good word processing program called "PC-Write"? Is it true that Microsoft bought it and shut it down?

[ 09-21-2002, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: Bayboat ]

[Meerkat]

Don Westerveldt said:

Their domination of the industry is not due to unfair competition, it's due to the fact that their customers like their products. TheChemist said:

Microsoft has virtually the only product, in a large segment of the computer industry, and they captured that market by business practices so aggressive that they earned an antitrust lawsuit. Which they lost...

Let's take this elsewhere if we're going to continue and leave TheChemist to his thread! This belongs in misc if it belongs on a wooden boat forum at all.

[NormMessinger]

Two bits says TheChemist does not do brand names.

--Norm

[redsail]

Donn, there is no finish as easy on the eyes as a good varnish job. Since you asked I'd say , refinish those lovely mahogany doors with 4 or 5 coats of a good varnish. As the only brightwork on the boat the varnish will set off all the other paintwork and I bet will get more than a few compliments from the dockwalking crowd.

[thechemist]

The two-component isocyanate-cured polyurethanes are head-and-shoulders above the rest, for anything not continuously immersed in water.

.
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So, good chemist sir, why don't the isocyante polys do well for bottom paint, and what's your personal pick for below the waterliine?
jimd Aliphatic-isocyanate-cured polyurethanes peel on long-term immersion in water. I know why, but I am not programmed to respond in that area.

Aromatic-isocyanate-cured polyurethanes hold up very well underwater, but are only produced as specialty items by aerospace coatings manufacturers. There is little market for them. They chalk rapidly in sunlight, as do epoxy paints or epoxy coatings or "sheathings".

The reason epoxy products chalk in sunlight is that virtually all of them are based on an aromatic ring [a particular kind of 6-carbon ring with three double-bonds] which breaks down easily in sunlight. The aliphatic [meaning no double-bonds] isocyanates hold up much better.

Below the waterline epoxy products do well, if properly formulated and thoroughly mixed by the applicator. The first underwater epoxy coatings that were really successful were developed in the forties at the Mare Island Paint Laboratory. Today, many companies, large and small, make these formulations, often called "barrier coat" of one sort or another. The Mare Island 150 series was formulated as a one-to-one mix. Availability in different colors allowed camouflage patterns to be done above the waterline as well as to control film thickness and number of coats actually applied below the waterline. Aside from surface preparation contributing to adhesion, you can look for a one-mil film to pass a 1/8" mandrel-bend test. That indicates some flexibility, which is needed on steel or aluminum or GRP hulls as well as wood.

There actually do exist aliphatic epoxy systems, but not in the mainstream of commerce, as they cure too slowly reacting with amines, and residual amines in coatings cause film yellowing anyway. West and Raka and Sys. 3 and everyone else I know of who makes googe uses amine-cured formulations. They will all yellow.

Aliphatic epoxy products can be acid-catalyzed and do rapidly cure, but I have not done long-term immersion tests on them, nor do I know of anyone who has. They should yellow less, but will not have the initial film elongations of 100% or even more, that characterize polyurethanes. The reason they do not is that the raw materials to make the particular size and shape of molecules necessary to get that sort of performance are not in commercial production.

Underwater oil-base enamels MAY hold up well, depending on surface prep and appropriate use of adhesion-promoting primers. In the past enamels had better film flexibility due to the kind of oil alkyds used [These were called long-oil alkyds]. With recent V.O.C. regulations restricting solvent content, manufacturers have been forced to change to medium- and short-oil alkyds which have inherently lower film flexibility and elongation. Thus, they fail sooner but meet reduced solvent-emission regulations. This is a good thing and we have laws that make it so.

There are silicone-modified enamels such as Easy-poxy [you'd think it was some sort of epoxy product, wouldn't you? Hah.] Which hold their gloss exceptionally well [flexibility and film elongation I dunno] but are difficult to get recoat adhesion due to the silicone factor. Thus, they ought not be used over nonskid, for you cannot sand a nonskid-painted deck.

I hope that answers a few of your questions.

[Meerkat]

TheChemist, you answered questions I didn't even know I had, but we're still in the dark about your personal pick for below the waterline smile.gif

[NormMessinger]

Translate that to your local hardware store paint shelf....

Four bits says TheChemist does not do brand names.

--Norm

[thechemist]

Originally posted by meerkat:
TheChemist, you answered questions I didn't even know I had, but we're still in the dark about your personal pick for below the waterline smile.gif Underwater coatings may include specialized pretreatments for various substrates, some coating that reduces the rate of water diffusion through it, and usually some antifouling outer coating for those boats or ships kept in the water for extended periods.

Underwater coatings for the general public [meaning non-military/industrial] are not really sold at hardware stores. You can find them readily at most coatings stores/chandleries that cater to the marine trade, whether via a boat yard who will sell you retail what they buy wholesale, or via a West Marine/Boats/US/mail-order or the like. Any brand that aligns generally with what I mentioned in the prior post is likely to be adequate for the primary barrier-coat underwater. These things are now used over corrosion-inhibiting primers on aluminum or steel, as well as to prevent gel-coat blisters on GRP hulls and to reduce water absorption on wood hulls. You can call any of your favorite mail-order epoxy-suppliers/manufacturers and ask them if they make something with the aforementioned generic qualities. You should do well with anyone or any product that qualifies.

Antifouling coatings are what they are today. It is likely that The Practical Sailor has done some reasonably unbiased evaluations of them, as they do of various products. You could contact them, and subscribe, and get data similar to what you find from Consumer Reports. Used to be you could pick up Mare Island Formula 121 [red] or 129 [black] and expect two years of very good performance in San Francisco bay waters, if applied at 100 square feet per gallon. The stuff weighed 21 pounds per gallon [red] or about 20 [black] and was the best there was. Only the tin paint [formula 170/1/2/3] was better.....we still use it on our subs.....essential military use qualifying for special exemption.....

I really don't know how well the modern copolymers inhibit the slime algae that wants to attach to an underwater surface and provides a starting-point for all the other stuff, but capsaicins and similar unconventional active agents are quite effective. The limitation is the leach rate out of a coating, and the difficulty of making that leach rate constant with time as the active layer becomes further buried under depleted material. Ablative coatings were and to a great degree still are the preferred technology for that. The soft [sloughing] antifouling paints [formula 105, for example] did well, but only for about half the life of the so-called hard vinyl formulas, which also were actually ablative ["self-polishing"] but to a lesser degree.

[paladin]

See! and summa youse guys thought I had a screw loose when I talked of adding a pound of very finely ground dried chili peppers to a gallon of bottom paint!!!!!! tongue.gif tongue.gif

[thechemist]

Originally posted by paladinsfo:
See! and summa youse guys thought I had a screw loose when I talked of adding a pound of very finely ground dried chili peppers to a gallon of bottom paint!!!!!! tongue.gif tongue.gif Ummmmmm...no, Chuck, it was a good idea. They were merely uninformed. Summa those others were not awake when the subject floated by, though whether flotsam or jetsam I am uncertain.

Use the search thingy to find cayenne, or pepper, or capsaicin and you will find quite some discussions about it, though whether in Building or Products I disremember......

[JimD]

Much obliged, Chemist. So aliphatic poly isocyanates (close enough, ya know what I mean) topsides, and pick 'em bottom paint from one's marine paint vender of choice ie. Petit, Epiphanes, et al sounds good to me
jimd

[Meerkat]

West Marine barely carries vinyl based anti-fouling paints any more and they said something about there not being too much of a demand for them (in the print catalog)... just a bit of trivia I picked up. It seems like the copolymers with the new slime fighters might be the way to go with a trailer sailer.

For anyone interested, West Marine has an 'advisor' (seems reasonably objective) at West Paint Advisor (http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/commerce/command/ExecMacro/west_advisor.d2w/show_advisor?fn=antifouling_paints.htm&store_num=4)

[capt jake]

Eeh gads! And from a post to take peoples minds off of their little spat! smile.gif

Way too much here for me at present.

I need simple advice. What paint is the best all around bet? It is trailered and covered. I am thinking one of the oil based alkyd enamels.

The next boat is going to take a bit more, and I will review all that had been presented!

Wow!, what a way to take your mind off a subject! Awesome! :D

[thechemist]

Originally posted by capt jake:
<snip>

What paint is the best all around bet? It is trailered and covered. I am thinking one of the oil based alkyd enamels.
<snip> :D Just call Kirby's and get some enamel. It will serve you adequately.

[Wild Wassa]

The superior brands can mean didly squat, if the applicator is not an applicator. People say this isn't rocket science. I disagree. Thinking on the day, changes, daily.

Warren.

ps, The polys are fantasticlly difficult. A true joy to a painter. Not a single day is the same, when using polys. If you are a person who's unstable, or lacking in ability, don't go there. These paints are not sympathetic to your cause. When I started using these paints, I had to rethink and reinvent all my proven techniques.

pps, I even use them as textured anti-skids now.

[ 09-22-2002, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[capt jake]

Sounds like the oil based enamels are the way to go (for me at least, this time). I have sprayed auto paint in the (way) past, but I am sure I am out of touch with the 'techniques'.

Need to brush up on hte spraying (no pun intended) for the next project.

[Wild Wassa]

I find now that the real rewards are comming with ease of application. It took 15 months (of almost allday, everyday) now I love (love is the correct word) this stuff. I would find it hard to go back to oil based media, now. I also don't want to.

Talk about 'fantastic plastic'.

Warren.

ps, When 'builders' ask me if the boats are FG, I feel honoured.

[ 09-22-2002, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[thechemist]

Originally posted by Wild Wassa:
The superior brands can mean didly squat, if the applicator is not an applicator. <snip> The polys are fantasticlly difficult. <snip> These paints are not sympathetic to your cause. When I started using these paints, I had to rethink and reinvent all my proven techniques.<snip>Well, that is largely the fault of the manufacturer, Warren, not you. There is a term in the U. S., "User-friendly". It means that the manufacturer's chemists have formulated the product to be sprayable or brushable, depending on choice of reducer, and have exercised some competence and some artistry in the formulation of the paint, using some of the hundred or more commercially available additives to make their particular coating behave well during the application process.

You cannot generalize from one product by one manufacturer that all of that class are difficult to apply and extraordinarily sensitive to weather. Your formula made by that manufacturer in that color, yes. Other brands, no.

A yugo is not a volkswagen is not a chevrolet is not a mercedes is not a volvo is not a rolls-royce.

[Wild Wassa]

I should not have been so general. Iv'e watched pigments float to the top on cold days. I also have had to recalibrate the manufacturer's recommendations, daily.

I was at one stage, going to change paint brands, then it klicked. The 'artist's feel' in the painter was missing, at the time. People apply paint. User friendly was not part of the equation, earlier on.

Warren.

[ 09-23-2002, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[paul oman]

As an epoxy saleman - vendor - who is also getting into polyurethanes, I can add a few things to what my friend The Chemist, as stated so well..... We sell some of these products and are about to add a few more in the next week or too.... but enough about that - don[t want to make this a commercial plug.

The 2 part polyester polyurethanes are the top of the heap - often called LPU (linear polyester poly-urethene). Algrip is such a product. These coatings find themselves going on private Lear Jets, etc - priced $100-$200 per gallon.

Next down are acrylic polyurethanes - Often used as a high end commercial coating such as water towers etc. Not sure about prices but ours will sell for about $65 per gallon.

FYI: Imron (spelling?) a common alternative to algrip and LPU coatings is actually an acrylic-poyester hybrid polyurethene.....

And yes, I have used latex eterior paint very successfully on small boats and have found it holds up better than enamels.

Another option is a latex hull topcoated with a clear LPU polyester polyurethene....

regards

paul oman
progress epoxy
http://www.epoxyproducts.com/marine.html

[Wild Wassa]

The Chemist and Paul, Hence my term rocket science. I should have said rocket skin as well.

Talking to various manufacturers in Oz, their Chemists and trade backups, they tell me that professionals and a only few self builders are using these paints (I find it difficult to call the polys paint).

Can you recommend a site, where I might find scanning electron micrographs, or extreme macro photographs of water based poly, showing the different surfaces qualities, following the different application types. Spray, roller and brush.

I think we pay, (I don't buy the paint) about $125 US for 5 lts. The paint I use seems to shrink to the thinnest membrane, is this normal.

Who on the Forum is a heavy user of polys as a boat person ?, Lear Jets painters prefered. I would like to know what you find. You vrs the manufacturer's standard.

Warren.

[ 09-22-2002, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Scott Rosen]

Warren,

I use LPUs regularly. I've tried a couple of different brands. The most consistent behaving brand is Sterling. If you follow their instructions, it will work. It is also a user friendly product, as Chemist put it. It's formulated to behave well during application. In many ways, it's easier to get a smooth finish with Sterling than with oil-based paints, because you can control the flow and leveling better with the various additives. Of course the Chemicals are more toxic. But the steps are the same: seal, prime, fill, prime and topcoat.

The stuff is virtually bullet proof. I use it on my transom becuase of the exhaust stains. With oil based paint, I can't get the stains out without killing the gloss. With Sterling, I can use a strong mixture of TSP for the exhaust stains and oxallic acid for other stains, and the finish doesn't dull at all. It excells for use on plywood bulkheads, overheads, etc. I also use it on the floorboards in my head, which is subjected to a lot of acids (urine drips) and harsh cleaners. It's also more elastic than oil based paints, so you get less cracking and peeling from movement.

A number of years ago, I tried the Rivale LPU. It was a durable and good looking product, but very difficult to apply. The manufacturer's instructions were useless. I felt like a witch doctor when I tried to get the chemical mix just right.

LPU is the best product to use for a non-skid deck or cabin top.

There's no reason you can't get 10 years out of your exterior LPU paint job.

The only downsides I've found are: 1) Initial cost is high. 2) It is so glossy that it may not look good as a topside paint on traditional boats--I use Kirby's on my topsides for that reason. 3) It is highly water resistant, so don't use it in areas where you need to let water vapor out of the wood, like the inside of a traditional hull. 4) It's murder on brushes.

[Wild Wassa]

Scott, User friendly? Result friendly. Eventually. There is more work with my poly than painting with enamel. For sure.

The poly is a paint that gives me little latitude as a painter. I expect to be able to thin.

The products that I've tried, change greatly with only small changes in temperature. This surprises me. I have looked at a few Aussie brands. They are thin. How do you find your polys?

I've always to been a witch doctor, Sir. My hybrid poly paints are going on. I'm inventing ? surfaces for some boats. Not for the faint hearted. Wastage is high. I recognise others have different surface needs to ours.

The shrinking of the material is impressive. The leveling isn't. I know the boats have to be sound and the glues well cured before the poly goes on. I've bent boats. Once dry.

I have good results using the water based polys, when I'm painting (running a bead) at temperatures colder than the manufacturer's lowest recommended limit. Cold curing. Smooth. I only work on racing dinghies.

Warren.

ps, Still looking for a 0.0018 of a knot, after finding one earlier.

[ 09-23-2002, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[thechemist]

Waterborne polyurethanes, even if two-component, are not to be confused with solvent-borne paints.

Waterborne systems have utterly different chemcial curing mechanisms and will behave utterly differently in the application process.

My previous comments here referred ONLY to the two-component solvent-borne polyurethanes which contain "aliphatic isocyanate monomer and polymer" in the curing solution.

[Wild Wassa]

Originally posted by thechemist:

... and will behave utterly differently in the application process.This is what I'm after.

I live in a very hot country. Summers nearly here. The polyurethanes that I use skin in 5-6 seconds with a maximum of about 10 seconds. At normal room temperatures 18 oC. There isn't much chance for the paint to be self levelling.

I paint in a cool paintery as well.

Warren.

ps, On other occassions :cool: , the rapid drying? is very useable. Polimerization isn't as rapid. The hardness is impressive.

[ 09-24-2002, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Ian G Wright]

Originally posted by Scott Rosen:
Warren,

There's no reason you can't get 10 years out of your exterior LPU paint job.

.,,,,,,,not counting scrapes, bumps, dings and other whoopsies,,,,,,, or is that just me?

IanW

[Scott Rosen]

I should stipulate that you can get 10 years, as long as you don't actually use the boat. Of course, your milage may vary. ;)

[Wild Wassa]

Ian and Scott, thankyou. Stan V gave me a good figure for the life of epoxy as well. I now have my set.

Scott, The racing dinghy hardly sees water. It is more like a once a week bath. Then when returned to the shed, they get washed again and dryed.

My own boat is aproaching 40 years. With a poly. Original coat most places on the hull. The boat was painted by the Sorrento boatbuilder, Harold Lang. The boat is being stripped and wooded at the moment, by me. I'm fixing damage as well as painting. It's a good chance to do the boat (at last).

Where the original owner, retouched damage, the boat has some rot and is being done The boat will still race this season. The season has already started. The poly allows a painter to work quickly. Very quickly. 10 coats in a 24 hrs because it's wise to physically key.

Warren.

ps, HJLang worked on the Little America's Cup winner Miss E. I knew there had to be a reason why I resisted painting the boat. The poly is good, still. The previous owner had the boat off the water for 12 years. If this is the quality of old poly? the current stuff sounds hopefull.

[ 09-24-2002, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[JimD]

I use the aliphatic isocyanate LP. The only thing about it I find that makes it tricky to use is that it tacks up very quickly when applied. I brush and roll it on. Getting the nack for the right speed to apply it seems to be the trick. Roll it too fast and it bubbles. The bubbles tend to cure instantly. Even if you tip carefully you may still end up with pock craters. Also, you can't cut back into the previous roll the way you do when painting a room in the house. Not too fast, not too slow is the ticket. Once you get the hang of it its great paint.
jimd

[Wild Wassa]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid22/pef5d253a7b2c040c9a714ed4eed0822b/fda961c3.jpg

A water based poly surface earlier this year. Stitch and glue, 4 coats of epoxy and 12 coats of poly. With 5 micron hollow glass spheres below top coats. Maximum dilution (manufacturer's maximum) 10% thinner.

Warren.

ps, With the little bubbles, a gentle swiff with a hairdryer on cold will fix that. But you have only a few seconds. As mentioned by Jim.

[ 09-24-2002, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Bob Cleek]

Ah, nostalgia ain't what it used to be. Thanks for the rush, Chemist! I used to LOVE that Mare Island 170 submarine paint. I left some on for five years in the bay and when she hauled, NUTHIN' and I mean nuthin' was growing on that bottom. Unfortunately, Mare Island was a casualty of the base closure action and when they closed her up, they locked the back gate, which was where all our sub paint was coming from. LOL

BTW Scott, I'm thinking of switching from Interlux to Kirby's for my white topsides and other white stuff. It doesn't look like Kirby makes a sanding undercoat. Do they? Or, do you just use Z Spar or Interlux's sanding undercoat to fair up? Inquiring minds want to know!

[Scott Rosen]

Warren, that's a water-based finish!? Are you playing around with trick photography? LOL

Bob, Kirby makes a heavy-bodied white undercoater. The stuff is as thick as pudding. It takes longer to dry than the Interlux, but it covers better. You might have to wait a couple of days before you can sand it.

The nice thing about Kirby is that if you call him on the phone and talk to him, he will pretty much mix up just about any kind of paint or primer that you need. He has pine tar, white lead, red lead and all of the other goodies, too.

I started using his copper bottom paint this year on my dinghy, and it really works well. It has a strange, but appealing, smell to it. A little like pine tar. I suspect he's adding some of those banned substances that work so well, but he's not telling anyone or listing them on the label. (Don't worry George, your secret is safe with me.) It goes on nice and thick and smooth and dries to a hard finish. The colors are great. I used the green, which looks just like the classic yachts in old paintings from the turn-of-the-Century. Have you noticed that the newer bottom paints all have funny colors? I'm using Kirby's on Patience's bottom next Spring.

I'm trying to help keep him in business. I just painted the deck on our house with his Vintage Slate Gray. Man, does it look nice.

[Wild Wassa]

Scott, 11ft of rocker reduced to 11cm of compressed perspective, certainly raises the accutance.

Water based? it is. The way I apply the poly, has changed, over the last year. I've gone from slow and thorough to fast and often, ... but just as thorough.

I wasn't happy with the dinghy's surface, so I faired it again, keyed it again and painted it again. Then it was polished. Now it is good. I've shots still to be processed of the new surface. The old boats compete against newer composites, they need as much help as they can get. They're competitive again. The little dinghy is over 40 yrs old and had been off the water for well over a decade.

The hardness and new found rigidity of the 3 ply surfaces using the epoxy followed by the poly has been worth the trouble.

Warren.

[ 09-25-2002, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Wild Wassa]

It was amiss of me to have overlooked the brush type that I used for painting the dinghy.

My Japanese brush is similar to the Lowe Cornell Golden Taclon 2 inch. This will help. The price does not.

If you are looking for a nice 1 inch brush (small, but a workhorse), a Kolinsky Sable. About $200 in Oz. Million dollar poly does not draw well from $2 flat foam brush.

Warren.

[ 09-25-2002, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Bob Cleek]

Thanks Scott! I'm going to be giving old George III a call, so I'll ask him about his surfacing undercoat. I spray mine, which makes it easy to build up over the dark spots and I don't have to sand so much off to get the brush strokes out of the thick stuff. Brush the enamel, of course.

You bet they are great. Too bad they don't have a west coast outlet! LOL Fact is, if they get too popular (I'll there's some EPA rule about limits on production), they'll regulate them out of business, or one of the big manufacturers will buy them out and that will be the end of it. Keep Kirby's a secret! LOL

[Meerkat]

What a fascinating thread. Can anyone translate?

Wassa, i'm quite impressed that that's a brushed on finish!

I'm going to have an open boat. Inside painted. Outside painted. Bright trim. Upper outside gets wet sometimes, bottom outside gets wet a lot when it's in the water. Inside gets wet once in awhile. Sometimes the whole boat is dry, like when it's on it's trailer. I don't own a sprayer and am not going to paint enough to justify owning one. From experience, I _will_ have anti-fouling bottom paint.

Ok, so what I know about paint and painting you could stuff in a hummingbird and still have room for the hum...

Plain english suggestions?

[capt jake]

Meer, you speaka me language!!! I am presently thinking a LPU namely Petitt. Per local recommendations.

[Wild Wassa]

Meerkat, I work on a few boats at any one time.
There is no urgency to put them on the water. So we fair, time and time again. Or we did. We let them cure for months, no rush. Refill, fair again, cure for months. Finish fairing. Then paint. Thinly, watch the drips. The sponges for painting give the impression of a rough brush, in my hands. I use a Taclon brush. Brushstroke free.

I brush it on 'like a glaze' if I can. Thinly. 12 coats equates to about 2-3 normal coats in thickness. Or what you would expect the thickness to be. I've pulled a few paint chips off the boat it seems thick enough. Then the paint shrinks to almost 'nothing'. Then I repaint with a brush.

Long board, rubber sanding block, smaller blocks for the curves. I faired and repainted the boat again after one year, it has held up nicely now. The epoxy over the marine 3 ply hasn't moved for months.

I've seen an America's Cup yacht surface, our boats want one too.

Warren.

[ 09-26-2002, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[capt jake]

Like Meercat mentioned, simple si in order (at least for me).

The local boating supply house sale rep (who owns a 40 footer) says to use Pettitt Easypoxy. He said it is easy to apply and durable, producing excellent results with the roll and tip method.

Thoughts??

[thechemist]

Originally posted by capt jake:
Like Meercat mentioned, simple si in order (at least for me).

The local boating supply house sale rep (who owns a 40 footer) says to use Pettitt Easypoxy. He said it is easy to apply and durable, producing excellent results with the roll and tip method.

Thoughts??Easypoxy....I seem to recal it's a silicone-modified enamel. Holds its gloss much better than enamel paints but cannot recoat without serious sanding. Hang on, lemme look: [Google] Yep... http://www.pettitpaint.com/pdf/easyproxy.pdf and basically it's some isocyanate thrown into an enamel paint and siliconized. Note in the above web page address they could not even spell easypoxy right. That's a bad sign.

It will likely do better than enamel paints in some respects, but no film properties are published. You might paint some on a plastic bag, lift it off when cured, and stretch it a bit and see how much "give" it has.

[capt jake]

Thanks Chemist. Keep those thoughts a comin'! smile.gif

[Meerkat]

Hey Chemist;

What would you suggest for the conditions I mentioned in my previous post in this thread? I think I've got the bottom paint sorted (copolymer), but the rest is... confusion smile.gif

I have the impression that LPU is good?

<ahem> trade names would be appreciated.

[thechemist]

Originally posted by meerkat:
Hey Chemist;

What would you suggest for the conditions I mentioned in my previous post in this thread? I think I've got the bottom paint sorted (copolymer), but the rest is... confusion smile.gif

I have the impression that LPU is good?

<ahem> trade names would be appreciated.LPU is super-good, but it does not sound as if you have a severe environment, and a trailer boat may be covered or kept in a garage or shade, so..... with good wood prep so a decent enamel is well-bonded to the wood, you should be able to, for instance, get something from Kirby's that would be satisfactory. It has been mentioned favorably here fifty times for any other one-part paint, and they DO do mail-order..

Sorry, Norm. Last I heard the bet was up to four-bits. Donate it to John and Kate's dress-up-Lulu fund.

[capt jake]

So Meercat, is it Kirby's or an LPU that you are going to go with. I think you and I are about the same on the confusion/choice level. :D
Mine is also a trailer sailer, hopefully to be covered when not in use.

[Wild Wassa]

Get a (free?) sample pot or two, of both the Enamel and Poly, and see which of the media suits your temperament.

Is it the two coat enamel, or the multiple coatings of poly?

Do not think that just changing between media or a simple selection of media is a win for you. You could be standing over the boat for a lot longer than you think with the poly. Despite the rapid setting of the poly.

Enamel is child's play or so it now seems. Poly users nodoubt can relate. It took 12-15 months (full time) as a worker using the poly before I felt confident. It also took months before I felt happy with my dilutions. I feel the time has been well spent. I choose not to use enamel now, unless needed.

I also wood boats covered in poly. This is not like stripping/wooding an enamel covered boat. This is slow.

Warren.

[ 09-28-2002, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[NormMessinger]

Sorry, Norm. Last I heard the bet was up to four-bits. Donate it to John and Kate's dress-up-Lulu fund.

The check is in the mail. smile.gif

--Norm

[capt jake]

Thanks Warren. Sounds like the enamle is hte way to go for me.

Ole Scarbutt :D ROTFLMAO... I must have missed the bet thingy.

[Meerkat]

I guess enamel might be the way to go for me too; I sure like the nearby pics of Don Olney's Ness Yawl "Highlander" (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292011163) done in Interlux brand enamel. I'll have to check out Mr. Kirby smile.gif

[ 09-28-2002, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: meerkat ]

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Okay so here is the question to the chemist.... :cool: I considering Interlux interthane plus .. two part stuff ... and it says that it has been designed to roll and then tip in with a brush.... know anyone that has done this? I know how to use a brush well.. and of course spraying for me is alot more prep work, as I have no inside facility.. hence I have to build a shelter of some size and cost..(36 foot chris connie)... it has imron on the boat now and its still quite good, but cracked around a few seams.. I might try tipping in some repair work, but I suspect the color match will be tough even though the boat is white.. so give me some pointers gentlemen.. I have never used two parts so this would be new

[thechemist]

The evaporation rate of their solvent system and their brushing reducer [if any] has everything in the world to do with it.

I don't know what that is. Ask the manufacturer for evaporation rates, or get the MSDS for each component. They are relative to Butyl acetate which is assigned 1 or 100, depending on who wrote the data sheet.

For decent brushability you want an evaporation rate of a third to a quarter of butyl acetate. For rolling-and-tipping you want some part, maybe a third, of the solvent system to have an evaporation rate of maybe a tenth or two-tenths of butyl acetate. Weather has a lot to do with it, and since your climate is cooler you could stand the higher-evaporation-rate ranges.

Systems formulated to be sprayed have the vast majority of the solvent system rather fast-evaporating, and they do not brush well.

[Wild Wassa]

Originally posted by Peter Malcolm: I suspect the color match will be tough even though the boat is white.. so give me some pointers gentlemen.. [/QB]Peter M, Is your boat white? Which white? What is the hue (the colour) and value (the difference between black and white) of the white? The boat 'was' white. These are important to think about if you are going to blend-in small areas. The whitest and most popular white is Titanium White.

When you are painting, also be aware that the hue and value change, between wet and dry. People get the 'wet value' right and are disappointed with the 'dry value'. Value is the shade.

Grab a stack of white colour cards (the 8x12cm patches) from a trade shop. You will end up with more than a dozen different whites from the paint patches. Hold them against the boat. Select the closest hue and value. Then fold a sheet of high quality photocopy paper in half, two layers are opaque. This is your titanium white reference, and should be placed on the boat in noon sunlight or an equivalent daylight balanced light source. Is your boat still 'white', grey, yellow or other.

Take the card that best matches, and get the trade shop to tint your paint to that card. It tends not to matter too much which manufacturer's patches you choose.

Find out what pigment types are available in the trade shop, ring the manufacturer's trade backup, or ask the Jedi (on this site). Ask your manufacturer will these tint types be suitable for tinting your paint.

Decanter the amount of paint that you expect to use (add a bit more), measure the volume, tell the trade shop the volume, top up and round off the volume, then Bob's your uncle . They will tint to your needs. 250ml, 500ml or 1lt. Trade stores will proportionally tint.

The hue and value of your new white will be very close if not spot-on. If it isn't, you can add more tint or more white. The value changes when dry. When you apply the paint it may not look right. Once dry it looks right. A bit of trial and review could be needed.

I think I would avoid getting paint tinted at a hardware store. The trade stores speak the language. Write the tint figures on the lid of your new white.

Warren.

ps, Peter, your current (leftover) paint?, might not need adjusting and should be the first paint tried.

[ 09-30-2002, 03:53 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Wild Wassa]

Good afternoon, I went to Bristol and picked up stuff, I also pulled colour patches. '12' white and white to a density of off white. Good options, of a white. Just in Bristol.

I bought a new pro scraper. The poly has exhausted my old scrapers and two chisels. I burnt my leather glove, burnt the rot as well. Over the last few days. Poly is tough.

Warren.

ps, I'm checking the boat every half hour for a candle or smoke. If it's smoldering it's burning under reduction. I'll go and check the buoyancy tanks, again.

[ 09-30-2002, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Meerkat]

Wassa said:

ps, I'm checking the boat every half hour for a candle or smoke. If it's smoldering it's burning under reduction. I'll go and check the buoyancy tanks, again.
Some reaction to paint?

Enamel is sounding better and better, not only for ease of application, but also for future renewal chores.

Wassa, have you checked out the nice Lee Valley scrapers and holder that are in the Woodenboat store catalog? They're probably cheaper direct at Lee Valley then at the WB store.

[Wild Wassa]

Meerkat, Wooden Boat is my home page to the Forum. I can't get into scrapers.

I try to buy Australian :D . An Oldfield 478, I think (the lable got torched, early). The Oldfield has 3 pins in the handle. A very stable handle. This is a chisel scraper. Not much pulling with this one, unlike the Lee's. The ball joint scraper from Lee looks very fancy and efficient. I would like to try one. The Oldfield looks like something from the Dark Ages. A mini battle axe with a spike. The spike is excellent for the corners.

I have made scrapers similar to the Lees spoon scraper, by cutting up garden tools. Bonsai tools.

This old poly has cained my Stanley chisels. After one week they are round, on the flat. They will go to a grinder now. The wonders of UV hardening.

Warren.

ps, The old metal scraper has been promoted to glue spreader and given a day off.

[ 09-30-2002, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Meerkat]

Still trying to figure out the bit about the candle or smoke Wassa smile.gif

[Wild Wassa]

Meerkat, A candle and smoke are two telltails after a fire that tell you that the fire isn't out.

Expanding gasses in the timber, can jet hot gas/fuel across embers. You will get a small slender flame or a trickle of smoke coming from a crack. The wind was up yesterday as well. Embers blew around. Powdered rot is a great well cured fuel. During a fire ban or extreme temperatures, the gun's out.

There must have been the odd boat that has gone up after heat gunning. Even days later.

The dangerous thing about candles and smoke is that they are intermittent. You can miss them.

I once attended a fire, in a pit (3 meters in diameter and we 'thought' about 1 meter deep). On the first day we put about 17,000 litres of water on the fire from two tankers and had a portable pump, pumping from the farmer's dam 20 meters away. We had the pump running for hours.

4 days later we had the fire out. Bundles of old newspapers meters deep. A guy set fire to a garbage pit on his farm. The fire was out, then it wasn't, then it was, then it wasn't. The fire was checked for days. A thin ribbon of smoke was spotted on the third day. No amout of blackouting worked. The fire burnt itself out.

Warren.

ps, the smoke that was spotted didn't come from the pit. It was spotted in a dead tree metres away. The fire burnt tree roots underground. Just as well it was spotted. One of the Deputy Captains checked the site for weeks.

[ 10-01-2002, 05:09 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]