Old growth live oak Hurr. Jeanne

[Bruce Thompson]

My brother in Florida lost some large, old growth live oak trees to Hurricane Jeanne. These should be quite valuable for shipbuilding & repair. Does anyone have guidelines on where to cut the trees into manageable sections so as to save the value of the timber? Are straight or curved sections more valuable? Any contacts on potential customers/users/sawmills etc? It seems a waste to lose such a valuable resource! Help!

[Ross M]

You might take a look at this thread:
Topic: Best way to have logs cut (http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=007771&p=)

Ross

[Bob Smalser]

Woodweb now has a "Find a Sawyer" feature.

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/sawdry.pl

But all those local guys are probably backlogged two years now, after all those windthrows.

To save the logs until somebody can get to them, buck to length, paint the ends with Henry's Roofing Tar in the water emulsion flavor (3 bucks or so a gallon at Home Depot), and roll them up on pallets or bearers to get them off of the ground.

You can roll them with a pickup or even a car....run the tow cable beneath the log by hoeing out a tunnel and up the far side...then drive the hook in with a sledge...pulling the cable rolls the log. Large wedges driven in the near side by a helper prevent it from rolling back.

The logs are best debarked before storing, but that's not an easy chore late in the season. Without debarking, you'll lose all the sapwood to beetles....but with the glut of logs in the hurricane zone right now, that's probably no big deal.

Moving Logs Safely:

http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=shop&file=articles_291.shtml

[Thad]

Straight live oak stock is great stuff, but the most value is in the compass timbers. Here we are talking the value of use for boat and ship building, not necessarily money. If you look at the up down and sideways arcs of the big branches, you must make cuts at points where the branch is between arcs that each will be mostly in one plane. The old Live Oakers brought patterns into the swamps and matched the patterns to the piece while the tree still stood.

I would recommend speaking with IRYS in Newport, 401-848-5777, undertaking the Coronet project, who might send someone down to direct the cutting if they are interested, and Mystic Seaport's The Shipyard.

[Greg Stoll]

A gentleman I know (who teaches at WBS and IYRS) told me that live oak is not a good boatbuilding wood, apparently it is not as rot resistant as white oak. Anyone else ever heard of this?

Greg

[Bob Smalser]

Seems to have held up pretty well in the USS Constitution, "Old Ironsides".

I'd sure want it were it not so much of a hike for the old Pete. Plane junks, timbers, flooring, framing, knees, breasthooks...I can think of a few uses.

[ 09-29-2004, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Dave Fleming]

A gentleman I know (who teaches at WBS and IYRS) He TEACHES what subject?

Got any idea of his CV?

[Greg Stoll]

What do you mean by CV?

He teaches boatbuilding. The remark was in regards to Live Oak in Texas, which may be a different species than the Live Oak we're talking about.

Greg

[Paul Pless]

cv: curriculum vitae

In my line of work it means what are one's research, publishing, and work experiences. It might read very much like a resume, but a little more critical and specific you might say.

[Greg Stoll]

Boatbuilder since the early 80's, has his own boat building shop and works full-time as an instructor at IYRS. A couple of articles published in WB, beyond that I'm not sure.

Greg

[Dave Fleming]

See this: Live Oak (http://www.sfrc.ufl.edu/4h/Live_oak/liveoak.htm)

Live Oak information sheet:

Quercus virginiana Mill.

Live Oak

Fagaceae -- Beech family

W. R. Harms

Live oak (Quercus virginiana), also called Virginia live oak, is evergreen with a variety of forms, shrubby or dwarfed to large and spreading, depending upon the site. Usually live oak grows on sandy soils of low coastal areas, but it also grows in dry sandy Woods or moist rich woods. The wood is very heavy and strong but is little used at present. Birds and animals eat the acorns. Live oak is fast-growing and easily transplanted when young so is used widely as an ornamental. Variations in leaf sizes and acorn cup shapes distinguish two varieties from the typical, Texas live oak (Q. uirginiana var. fusiformis (Small) Sarg.) and sand live oak (Q. virginiana var. geminata (Small) Sarg.) (4).

Habitat
Native Range
Live oak is found in the lower Coastal Plain of the Southeastern United States from southeastern Virginia south to Georgia and Florida including the Florida Keys; west to southern and central Texas with scattered populations in southwestern Oklahoma and the mountains of northeastern Mexico (4).


-The native range of live oak.

Climate
The climate is humid. Annual precipitation varies from 810 mm (32 in) in Texas to 1650 mm (65 in) along the Gulf Coast to 1270 mm (50 in) along the Atlantic coast and Florida. During the growing season, March through September, rainfall averages from 460 mm (18 in) in the west to 660 to 760 mm (26 to 30 in) in the east and south, with summer droughts more common in the western part of the range than elsewhere. The average summer temperature is 27° C (80° F). The average winter temperature ranges from 2° C (35° F) in the east and west to 16° C (60° F) in the south. The frost-free period is 240 days in the east and west and more than 300 days in southern Florida (5).

Soils and Topography
Live oak nearly always grows on sandy soils belonging to the Ultisols, Spodosols, Histosols, and Entosols (5). Its resistance to salt spray and high levels of soil salinity makes it a dominant species in the live oak woodland on the barrier islands of the Atlantic and Gulf Coasts. In South Carolina it is found in dry sandy woods, moist rich woods, and wet woods. It is present in nearly every habitat in Florida from sandhills to hammocks, where it is generally the dominant species. In Louisiana, live oak is the dominant species on well-drained ridges bordering coastal marshes (3).

Associated Forest Cover
Live oak makes up the majority of the stocking of the forest cover type Live Oak (Society of American Foresters Type 89) (1). Common associates are water oak (Quercus nigra), laurel oak (Q. laurifolia), southern magnolia (Magnolia grandiflora), and sweetgum (Liquidambar styraciflua). On less welldrained sites it is accompanied by sugarberry (Celtis laevigata), green ash (Fraxinus pennsylvanica), and American elm (Ulmus americana). On the Atlantic Coast and Florida, common associates also include southern bayberry (Myrica cerifera), yaupon (Ilex vomitoria), tree sparkleberry (Vaccinium arboreum), cabbage palmetto (Sabal palmetto), and saw-palmetto (Serenoa repens). American holly (Ilex opaca), flowering dogwood (Cornus florida), southern crab apple (Malus angustifolia), hawthorn (Crataegus spp.), pignut hickory (Carya glabra), Carolina jessamine (Gelsemium sempervirens), and Japanese honeysuckle (Lonicera japonica) are also common associates.

Live oak is a minor species in seven other forest cover types: Longleaf-Scrub Oak (Type 71), Southern Redcedar (Type 73), Cabbage Palmetto (Type 74), Slash Pine (Type 84), South Florida Slash Pine (Type 111), Ashe Juniper-Redberry Juniper (Type 66), and Mohrs Oak (Type 67).

Life History
Reproduction and Early Growth
Flowering and Fruiting- Live oak is monoecious. Flowers are produced every spring, March through May. The acorns, long and tapered and dark brown to black, mature in September of the first year and fall before December.

Seed Production and Dissemination- Acorn crops are produced annually, often in great abundance. There is no published information on minimum seed-bearing age or size of the acorn crop. Number of sound acorns averages 776/kg (352/lb). Dissemination is by gravity and animals.

Seedling Development- The acorns germinate soon after falling to the ground if the site is moist and warm. Germination is hypogeal. Probably few acorns remain viable over winter because weevils invade them, and they are eaten by many animals and birds. There is no published information on seedling growth and development.

Vegetative Reproduction- Live oak sprouts abundantly from the root collar and roots. When tops are killed or when the tree is girdled, roots near the ground surface send up numerous sprouts. The capacity to sprout makes live oak difficult to kill by mechanical or chemical means.

Sapling and Pole Stages to Maturity
Growth and Yield- Live oak never attains great height, but the crown may have a span of 46 in (150 ft) or more. Open-grown specimens may have trunks 200 cm (79 in) in d.b.h. and average 15 in (50 ft) in height. Since the species is of little commercial importance except as an ornamental, growth and yield information has never been developed.

Rooting Habit- There is no published information on rooting habits, but the ability of live oak to grow and mature on sites subject to hurricane-force winds suggests that it is a deep-rooted species.

Reaction to Competition- Live oak may be most accurately classed as intermediate in tolerance to shade. In the northern part of its range, live oak assumes dominance only near the coast, where it is freed from competition by the greater sensitivity of all other broad-leaf trees to salt spray. The exclusion of fire has increased its presence in the Lower Coastal Plain. Once established in a favorable habitat, the tree is very tenacious and withstands all competition.

Damaging Agents- Young live oak is highly susceptible to fire. Its thin bark is readily killed by even light ground fires, leaving the trunk open to insects and fungi. The species is also susceptible to damage by freezing temperatures.

Live oak decline, a wilt disease attributed to Ceratocystis fagacearum, has been reported in Texas where it is killing thousands of trees annually. The disease is also suspected to occur in other Southern States as well and is considered a potentially serious problem (2,3). Leaf blister, caused by Taphrina caerulescens, periodically results in considerable defoliation.

A borer, Archodontes melanopus, commonly attacks roots of young oaks on the Atlantic Coast and may prevent the trees from developing normal form.

In some localities, mistletoe (Phoradendron spp.) grows on the branches. Spanish moss (Tillandsia usneoides), though an epiphyte, may damage trees because it accumulates in great abundance and decreases light reaching the interior and lower parts of the crown (6).

***Special Uses
Because of live oak's habit of forming a low, widespreading crown, it is widely used as a shade tree and an ornamental. Its acorns are sweet and much sought as food by birds and animals. During the era of wooden ships it was used extensively in shipbuilding because of its hardness and strength.***

Genetics
Two varieties of live oak are recognized: Quercus uirginiana var. fusiformis (Small) Sarg., Texas live oak, and Q. virginiana var. geminata (Small) Sarg., sand live oak.

Live oak hybridizes with Quercus bicolor (Q. x nessiana Palmer); Q. durandii; Q. lyrata (Q. x comptoniae Sarg.); Q. macrocarpa; Q. minima; and Q. stellata (Q. x harbisonii Sarg.).

Literature Cited
Eyre, F. H., ed. 1980. Forest cover types of the United States and Canada. Society of American Foresters, Washington, DC. 148 p.
Lewis, R., Jr. 1979. Control of live oak decline in Texas with lignasan and arbotect. In Proceedings, Symposium on Systemic Chemical Treatments in Tree Culture. p. 240-246. Michigan State University, East Lansing.
Lewis, R., Jr., and F. L. Olivera. 1979. Live oak decline in Texas. Journal of Arboriculture 5:241-244.
Little, Elbert L., Jr. 1979. Checklist of United States trees (native and naturalized). U.S. Department of Agriculture, Agriculture Handbook 541. Washington, DC. 375 p.
U.S. Department of Agriculture, Forest Service. 1969. A forest atlas of the South. Southeastern Forest Experiment Station, Asheville, NC. 27 p.
Woods, Frank W. 1965. Live oak (Quercus uirginiana Mill.). In Silvics of forest trees of the United States. p. 584-587. H. A. Fowells, comp. U.S. Department of Agriculture, Agriculture Handbook 271. Washington, DC.

Note, asterisks mine.

[ 09-29-2004, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[brian.cunningham]

Nice to see something GOOD is coming out of all those storms.

[Alan D. Hyde]

Is live oak susceptible to SOD (sudden oak death)?

Alan

[gary porter]

Originally posted by Bob Smalser:
Seems to have held up pretty well in the USS Constitution, "Old Ironsides".

I'd sure want it were it not so much of a hike for the old Pete. Plane junks, timbers, flooring, framing, knees, breasthooks...I can think of a few uses.Many of the old Drew mallets were made of Live Oak.
I have a bit of it and its one tough wood, beautiful but knarly and hard. I'd like to get a chunk off of those trees!!!...... smile.gif

Gary

[Dave Fleming]

I believe the late John Gardner told a story of how the crew in the Boston Navy Yard would carefully remove a plank of Live Oak from the work shop floor and replace it with a substitute, suitably worn looking and the Live Oak plank would be used by the resident plane maker to make planes for the crew.

[Greg Stoll]

After conferring with others who were there, it appears that I heard wrong; the person in question said that there is nothing wrong with live oak. I was wrong. I apologize for the time wasted on this arguement. My bad. Etc.

Greg

[wolfietuk]

After Hurricane hugo a batc of shipwrights arrived. They wanted the live oak crotches. This was for a large project (possibly old ironsides). We are also using local live oak for the frames on the spirit of SC. I can tell you it is hard as arock. and so dense it will sink. The biggest problem is that the grain is so curly. it will twist horribly while drying. and do not even think about bending it because of grain runout. But the crotches are prized and if you want some big timbers it is also useful.

Rick