A New Dory

[Clinton B Chase]

Hi all, I am moving into some new design work and an older lines plan for a dayboat. This thread is about the new design in the sketch stage, a new dory. The dory I want is one that has not been designed before but is very, very close to others we all know and love. I thought I'd start a thread since I will soon have drawings to share and particularly want to get input from some folks more experienced in dories than I. My design criteria are:

-a Swampscott dory hull form, I like a rounded body plan
-about 19'6 to 20'
-beamy but not too...just over 5'0"
-construction hybrid: ply bottom and gbds and 4 cedar topstrakes, riveted
-laminated spruce frame construction without bent ribs in between
-drawn for three rigs: a lug with sprit-mizzen, a trad. alpha dory rig, and a sliding gunter rig/yawl
-above will require some careful interior arrangements
-excellent for tandem rowing, doable for one to row as aux. power
-room for a weeks worth of camping gear for two
-a comfy gunwale for the hiking out
-superior sec. stability even for a dory
-looks original

I've been seriously considering a Beachcomber but it is too long for me to build in my shop without unwanted modifications to shop layout. And the 21'-er is a little too much for my wife and I to row, especially in a current. Yet, I love the Beach. I have rowed them extensively and sailed in Dan's dory (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82408&page=2&highlight=beachcomber+dory) enough to know how exciting and fast it is to use under sail.

There are a couple routes to take. One is to take the Beachcomber profile and rake up the ends to shorten the boat to 20'. Since lines need to be lofted out and the new sheer refaired it will be easy to bump out the beam and inch or so. While I am at it adjust the chine lines to account for the new planking thickness in the bottom and garboard and reline off for adjusted planking lines (I realize this is a detail, but can do it easily since I am making a new drawing). Essentially a new set of lines, but heavily based on Beachcomber.

Two, is to take Gardners modified 16'3" Swampscott (he has two modified 16's, one is beamier than the other; I'd use the beamier one) and stretch the hell out of those lines to get me to 19'3" (adding 3' or 3 1/2' will get me 19'9"). Doing this will require some adjustment to the sheer in profile and possibly the planking lines to keep things looking right, perhaps lifting the sheer a little in the process and giving it a bump out and couple inches. Other things may crop up, but easily handled I would predict.

Three, is to start completely fresh with a new profile of my own and a new half-breadth profile and draw completely new, which I can do. However, I'd look carefully at the other dories and make sure I am not straying far from convention as laid out by JG in detail. In this case, I might as well just adjust the other dories to suit. That is a question.

In any case, the interior will be completely new, based on the sail rigs I mention above and based on tandem rowing preferences and a nice balanced sail rig and helm (i.e., a centerboard that suits the rig and has a nice foil shape). The frame spacing may need to be a little closer to compensate for omitting bent frames and using lighter frames.

One thought, since my boat would likely be lighter than the originals, is to consider hardening up the bilges slightly or widening the bottom a little so that the lighter boat is not too tender. I'd probably use the Beach.'s rig and the same sail area in the new boat rather than draw new. The lug is a sail that will be from another boat. The gunter would be new, but not as high a priority. I like option one above, because it looks good on a tracing of the Beach and it does not shorten the waterline of the Beach much at all so performance should be comparable. But it would be buildable and lighter. But 19'6" might be better for us, in which case I could alter frame spacing in the Beach. Or I could stretch another dory's lines as in option two above.

Food for thought. Any ideas?

--Clint

[rbgarr]

There was a thread on Pete Culler's personal dory with multiple rigs like you're considering, Dancing Feather (at 19'). IIRC she was in the hands of either a Hyannis or Gloucester marine "museum' and might be available for lines taking.

Another alternative is the Cape Ann Dory in Chapelles's American Small Sailing Craft, p. 91.

Correction: I see from Burke's book that Dancing Feather was only 17+' long. My mistake!

[TerryLL]

Clint,

Sounds like a great project. I can hardly wait to see what you come up with.

Another starting point that you may have already considered is the Oughtred John Dory. It's 18'3" X 4'8", so stretching to your specs would be fairly minor. It's a three-plank hull with a very wide garboard, and the top two planks sit well above the waterline. It would look great with riveted solid upper strakes. As designed, it is a very fine rowing boat for one or two, but could certainly stand some additional firmness for sailing.

Please keep us informed as the project progresses.

[Clinton B Chase]

I'll keep all posted. I've built a J. Dory by Oughtred. Fabulous, fabulous dory. Like the Culler I find that something more firm bilged for sailing but not like a sailing dory is what I am after, thus the attraction to the Chamberlain hull forms, particularly the Alpha-Beachcomber so I have started by shortening up the Beach and playing with the rake of the ends. In the end I may only have a shortened Beach, but I can't help but tweak and end up with something entirely new. Gardner alludes to Chamberlain doing the same to his Beachcombers, every boat being a little different, presumably some were shortened, widened, etc. depending on the fisherman's needs. In reading up I did learn that dories trended towards being smaller as time went on so that they were more manageable by one. Like that need was, we want something manageable by two to row. So I may end up with something shorter on the waterline than the beachcomber. Gotta work...

Cheers,
Clint

[TerryLL]

At one extreme we've got the flat-out sailing dories like the Mower-X, Crocker Compass, Alden Indian, Sea Chanty. At the other extreme we've got the narrow sail-and-oar dories like the Beachcomber, John Dory, Chamberlain gunning dory and a raft of others. Something in between would be a fine addition to the fleet. A boat narrow enough to row comfortably, but with firmer bilges. I like it.

[Clinton B Chase]

Yes, and I know I've asked, but what do you think of the widened gardner modified 16'3 dory?

It is in this book, adjacent to the Mower Dory chapter near the end.

http://books.google.com/books?id=D5kZHwAACAAJ&dq=gardner+boats

Cheers,
Clint

[Daniel Noyes]

Hi guys
Clint I built the Alpha-Beach in a 20' x10' (the boat is 5 ft wide!) work shop with a tarp out the front to cover the bow! I took the doors of the shed for the build.
shortening and streaching a dory by adjusting the bottom lenght and using the same frames and stem patterns is absoloutely the traditional way of building.
I would think that the alpha dory is likely the frames of previous Chamberlain dorys on a streached bottom.
At Lowells where dorys have been built for 200+ yrs, dory's were described by bottom lenght because all the other components that went into the boat were cut from the same patterns for a 16' (loa) dory or a 19 1/2' (loa) dory.
If you want to shorten the A-B I would shorten the bottom one foot and adjust spaceing of frames accordingly, the boat will be proportionally wider than a Alpha.
Did you get the PM I sent about the NY times article from 1900 about the 2masted racing dories?!
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

ps. cry me a river about small shops!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2348/2744108990_79161893e4.jpg?v=0

[rbgarr]

Clint,

The North Shore dory at the Maine Maritime Museum is another design that might interest you. It would need scaling up to get to 19' (and scaling a dory model is fraught with risk) but it's a lovely shape.

[TerryLL]

Clint,
JG's 16'3" 5-plank dory was my first build back in '78. I sailed and rowed it extensively around Puget Sound. As designed it has a beam of 4'11", pretty darn close to your desired beam of approx. 5'. Stretching it to 19'6" would certainly make it long and lean. If you were to widen out the transom like the Mower-X and the Sea Chanty, you'd get that extra firmness under sail. The widened stern wouldn't affect the rowing performance, as the transom is completely out of the water unless the boat is heeled. Here's a pic of a Mower dory transom.

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k365/TerryLava/MowerX-Dory1.jpg

[TerryLL]

And here's a pic of the Alden Indian transom. Again, the transom is well out of the water unheeled.


http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k365/TerryLava/Indiantransom-1.jpg

[Ben Fuller]

Unfortunately there is no take off to the Chamberlain that is closest to what you want which is 1977.256 at Mystic. 18'5" x 4'9", a shrunk version of the Beachcomber. You could at least go down to Mystic and get some beams at the bottom.

There are plans available for Pete Culler's 18'8" x 5' dory modeled in 1972 for Charlie Sayle from Mystic, also in John Burke's book. ( Penobscot Marine Museum store has 4 copies of that book for sale.) I am looking the photo of the one at Mystic, Svarmisk and see five people in it with plenty of free board so should have the capacity you want.

Those boats all have wicked weather helm as the mast steps for the sloop rig is at the forward edge of the trunk. Arrangement is set for getting the board out of the middle of the boat, not for best balance.

I suspect that an 18 footer would be just fine if you actually want to enjoy rowing.

[Clinton B Chase]

Ben, I have the Culler plans and the lines are lovely but the Chamberlain dories seem like they would harden up much sooner than the Culler...the Chamberlain sides are more rounded in shape. Ellie and I can row a Beachcomber to windward but it is taxing and her back is shot from competitive sculling (she was ceded #1 in the H of the Charles the season her back went) So I think we can handle something in the 19 1/2' range. I hope to be able to balance the rig better and sort out the interior as far as trunk shape and placement relative to tandem rowing positions. TX, for chiming in Ben, I do have Burke's book. I have to look at Culler's dory again. Ben, would you look at it and the shape of the Beachcomber and other Chamberlain Swampscott's...doesn't Culler's look like a particularly tender dory to sail? (the lug I have to put in the boat is 105 SF, too) It looks like it'd row beautifully. I want a 50/50 boat.

Cheers,
Clint

[Ben Fuller]

On rowing, I have spent hours with another gent in a much slipperier 18 foot Piscataqua with no rig which we can boot along at 4 knots at a hard cruising pace. Up wind in 25 we crawl. I would not want to be doing it in a larger boat. At a race pace you run out of water line on even a 17 foot wherry type hull but you can cruise it easily. Weight and windage will be your drag.

It does not look like the Culler would be especially tender, in dory land. I don't have a way of measuring its bottom width or 4 inch water line which is probably the best quick and dirty gauge. Certainly the big Beachcomber would be much stiffer: its much more of a sailing boat. Gardner talks about 3 people and 5O pounds of lead to balance what I calculate is about 125 feet of sail.

Two chapters ahead of the Beachcomber is the gunning dory in the dory book. The original one is a Chamberlain 19 5 x 4 7", and then Gardner shrinks it to 18' with a 20 inch bottom width. It carries about 90 feet. Compare that to the Culler

Bear in mind by dinghy standards all of these dorys are tender. Think of a Lightning which is about the size of a Beachcomber. On which one could you stand on the rail?

Your sail is easy to reef; you may just need to do it a little earlier. Of greater concern is the length of the mast that you need.

[boylesboats]

Clinton,

You may be hybriding dories... But, why re-invent wheel?

[Clinton B Chase]

Ben, thanks for those thoughts and I hear you about rowing these heavy boats. I'd like to see that shorter Beachcomber. It is in small craft collections I presume. How could I see/measure it? Did you spend time in the 17' swampscott at Mystic? It is funny, a year or two ago when I started looking at these boats, I thought the Culler dory was the thing and the Swampscotts did not catch my eye as much, but that has completely reversed. The Beach would be awesome, but Ellie and I do want to row as much as we sail, so I am pulling back on that emphasis for hard sailing. Furthermore, I don't think Drake is going to be the tandem rowboat I was hoping it could be. I still would like to have a couple rig options, though. A 105 SF lug with a small mizzen and a trad. dory rig would be great. I also admire the Dion dory. Ben, would you suggest pulling the centerboard back into the center of the boat more now that the space isn't so important (my fishing days on the Banks are infrequent! :)

L, don't worry, I'm not going to reinvent the wheel.

Cheers,
Clint

[boylesboats]

Ben, thanks for those thoughts. I'd like to see that shorter Beachcomber. It is in small craft collections I presume. How could I see/measure it? Did you spend time in the 17' swampscott at Mystic?

L, don't worry, I'm not going to reinvent the wheel.

Cheers,
Clint

I like to see how it turn out...:)

[Clinton B Chase]

Oh and Dan, LOL...you sure proved that small shops can be overcome. Problem for me is I'll be building through winter. How heavy is your boat, did you measure it on a scale?

[Thorne]

Don't overestimate the stability of the Chamberlain hull -- I take water over the rail all the time in my fir over oak Chamberlain dory skiff, and that's only carrying just under 80 sq ft of main and jib. Boat weighs at least 300 lbs all up and rigged for sail.

They are certainly right about the wicked weather helm on these boats, and shifting the CB back a bit would be a huge help if you don't want to add a bowsprit to get the jib far forward enough to balance the helm.

[TerryLL]

They are certainly right about the wicked weather helm on these boats, and shifting the CB back a bit would be a huge help if you don't want to add a bowsprit to get the jib far forward enough to balance the helm.

The CB position on the best of the sailing dories, the Alden Indian, the Mower X-Dory, and the Town Class, is further aft than on the working dories like the Alpha/Beach. And they carried a greater proportion of their sail area in the jib.

[Clinton B Chase]

It s tricky to just move the CB fore or aft because the thwarts are tied into the centerboard, the fwd. thwart in the Beachcomber, and if you move the thwart you change the mast partner location which changes the CE position and you end up going around and around.

I'm hoping Ben could tell me more about this "shortened Beachcomber" at Mystic and about the 17' dory there.

Thanks for discussing guys.

Clint

[Ben Fuller]

Ben, thanks for those thoughts and I hear you about rowing these heavy boats. I'd like to see that shorter Beachcomber. It is in small craft collections I presume. How could I see/measure it? Did you spend time in the 17' swampscott at Mystic? It is funny, a year or two ago when I started looking at these boats, I thought the Culler dory was the thing and the Swampscotts did not catch my eye as much, but that has completely reversed. The Beach would be awesome, but Ellie and I do want to row as much as we sail, so I am pulling back on that emphasis for hard sailing. Furthermore, I don't think Drake is going to be the tandem rowboat I was hoping it could be. I still would like to have a couple rig options, though. A 105 SF lug with a small mizzen and a trad. dory rig would be great. I also admire the Dion dory. Ben, would you suggest pulling the centerboard back into the center of the boat more now that the space isn't so important (my fishing days on the Banks are infrequent! :)

L, don't worry, I'm not going to reinvent the wheel.

Cheers,
Clint

Pete's boat is a swampscott, just his design... which generally has a bit more sheer than traditional. What would be interesting is look at the board position vs the rig.

To see the boat at Mystic you'd need to make an appointment with Peter Vermilya. I think John G. dropped the board aft in one of his dory designs.
I recall that someone in New Zealand did one of John's sailing swampscotts and dropped the board back further to good effect, but I don't have the data. In looking at John's chapter on rig balance in Classic there is a citation for a 18 foot swampscott racing dory designed by Sam Brown published in Yachting in 1927. Only the sail plan with balance data is included in the book. Mark 1 eyeball tells me that the board has been shifted aft over say an Alpha. You might want to find that design.

[Ben Fuller]

It s tricky to just move the CB fore or aft because the thwarts are tied into the centerboard, the fwd. thwart in the Beachcomber, and if you move the thwart you change the mast partner location which changes the CE position and you end up going around and around.

I'm hoping Ben could tell me more about this "shortened Beachcomber" at Mystic and about the 17' dory there.

Thanks for discussing guys.

Clint

On shifting the trunk: you really only need one good thwart support. On log canoes we had only one and that went into cleats on the side of the trunk. Windward one used to be quite loose under sail. The beachcomber style used two pretty beefy ones. The 17 foot dory we had at Mystic got most of its support from the center thwart. If you do a modern ( 1950s on) forward raking head ledge centerboard design which lets you pull it up and down from the top corner you have more lattitude in thwart position if you want to catch two thwarts.

[Clinton B Chase]

Ben, yes it was the 16'3" modified swampscotts in which JG dropped the board aft and also made them longer. And I did some sketches with a forward raking trunk and it does indeed help when trying to juggle thwart position. The other tricky thing about thwart position relative to mast partner/CB support is that these dories seem very, very sensitive to where you sit and row. The BEach uses one solid thwart on the fwd end of trunk.

[Ben Fuller]

Biggest problem I have seen with people and sailing dories is that they put in a short tiller and then sit near the stern. There is a reason for tiller ropes or for a long tiller extension. The people have to hang out in the beamy bit.

Doing a raking headledge trunk seriously reduces board drag. Lets the board go long and vertical , lets you shape the board for lift. All good stuff.

[Clinton B Chase]

Well I've been playing with some lines, but nothing is materializing worth keeping yet. Partly, is I haven't really decided what I want in the dory.

In the meantime, I want to see this dory down in Mystic. I would like to go down, take the lines off of the boat, and make some drawings. Dan, interested?

Cheers,
Clint

[Clinton B Chase]

A new dory is born, on paper anyway. I will share eventually, but it is 18'3" x 4'11" and has a strong sheer and 4 strakes rather than 5. It is not a shortened Beachcomber or any other. After several attempts to use another dory as a basis, I just drew my own lines quite intuitively, which is how I drew Drake. What I learned there is that a model must be made to fair things up properly rather than going direct to lofting and full size molds, etc. So, stay tuned for a model, probably 1/4 scale and if all goes well the full size frames can be made direct from a 1/4 scale model and finalized offsets from modeling. Should be fun. This dory should be a fine tandem rowboat with good bearing for about 105 SF of lugsail and capacity to take some gear for two along the Maine Island Trail network. Since it is 4 strakes one of the challenges will be planking with good solid cedar or pine. The bottom and gbd will be ply. Anyone interested in seeing the lines?

[mizzenman]

Anyone interested in seeing the lines?

YES! What did you think?

[TerryLL]

Anyone interested in seeing the lines?

Post 'em.

[JimD]

Post 'em.

ditto

[Clinton B Chase]

I'll do it soon...I decided to draw the sides round to better fair things up so will do that and post em soon enough! She looks gorgeous, am very excited.

Clint

[Clinton B Chase]

All is well...the dory lines are being drawn and I am VERY excited about how she looks. Imagine the bounce and character of a Dion with the girth of a Beachcomber. Drawing the sides round and then 1/4-scale lofting and lining off the boat on the loft board and then doing a 1/4 scale model to finalize things before drawing the body plan full size with final plank/lap lines and a new table of offsets. Fun, fun, fun!

[boatbear]

Holy Sheepsh!t, Clint. Were you a suspense writer in a previous life?

[TerryLL]

Charlie,
I think old Clint is messin' with our heads.

[Clinton B Chase]

LOL, LOL, you guys crack me up. No, really I tried to take a photo of the drawings but the new paper I am using is weird with the camera and I couldn't get the lines to show. I will get to the printer soon. In the meantime, I'll enjoy messing with your heads. I look forward to sharing. I am fairing up the stern end of the boat and it is very tricky to draw it round sided because of the way the high deadrise, straight sides turn quickly to plumb right at the sheer strake. Hard to draw that round! I hope to finish the lines this weekend...

Cheers,
Clint

[boatbear]

Bump. No pressure, Clint. (tap tap tap tap tap taptaptaptap ....)

[TerryLL]

Glad I wasn't holding my breath on this one.

[Clinton B Chase]

Wow, I've got an audience. Well I'll try to get the lines scanned in ...if you don't mind seeing it in round sided form. Oh, man these lines look sweet. Storm coming tomorrow so will try to do Thurs.

Clint

[neilm]

Clint, I'm looking forward to seeing your design. Why did you downscale from your original idea? Perhaps you should design a second boat too. Say 19' 6" x 5' 2". It would give the Caledonia Yawl a run for her money and you could still row her in calm weather.

Neil

[boatbear]

"...if you don't mind seeing it in round sided form." Not at all, mate. Not at all.

It will be as much fun for us to see it evolve as it will be for you. Hell, we can jump in with unwanted advice; even have the odd punchup over how many planks, and so on. I just know this is going to be one pretty dory.

[boatbear]

Sorry Clint. I just had to bump this up again. Just in case you had forgotten, there was mention of a new dory.

Um, hope you weren't blown away by that storm. O god, was Clint blown away and I missed it?

[Clinton B Chase]

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.e272857221.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?e272857221.jpg)


Here is an update. These are the lines (sorry quality is poor). Doesn't do the lines a lot of justice. I am very, very pleased with what I have drawn (something that is not usually the case, franlkly!). So I will proceed to 1/4 scale lofting, modeling and lining off the hull for 4 strakes and will post a concept drawing of the sail plan and profile with construction thoughts, etc.

Specs:

18'6" LOA
4'11" Beam
2'9" beam w.l.
1'7" depth amidships

[Bill R]

Sweet. Build the d**n thing already will ya? We want to see the finished product. ;)

[neilm]

Nice! I can't wait to see the finished boat.

Neil

[Clinton B Chase]

I can't wait either guys. The design and building process is painfully drawn out over many months and years for even a simple boat. Like many of you I don't have a lot of free time. This design is to be paired with another existing design I am planning to build first, the Goat Island Skiff. I've added a mizzen to that rig to make it a yawl and it is that rig I intend to use in the dory. I'll be drawing a couple other rigs, too, a standing lug (boomless) and a trad. dory rig based on the Beachcomber-Alpha rig.

Come back tomorrow, I'll post the sail plan/construction sketch.

Clint

[johnw]

Looks like she'll be a beauty.

[boatbear]

Thanks Clint, I'll be able to sleep tonight. Looking good so far.

[Daniel Noyes]

Hi Clint
hey thers a drawing!
looks right
one critique might be the freeboard, How much? Alpha max freeboard is 2.5'. She may be dry but tough to row into the wind, if you plan on putting the sails up most of the time the wind is up it's probrbly fine.
keep the drawings coming, especially sail and foil placement and shape.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[Clinton B Chase]

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/b27c437dbe.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

Here is more of a sketch of the sail rig and construction thoughts.

Dan, max freeboard at bow and stern is not more than most dories, maybe a touch more at bow but not excessive...the shape of the sheer gives it a sense that it might be, doesn't it? I was going for a proud bow knowing the windage might be more. I will check and give you a # to compare to Spear; I really appreciate feedback!

Cheers,
Clint

Dan, my freeboard measure from bottom of stem to top of stem is 2'4". I assume your freeboard of 2'5" is not "freeboard" above LWL but height of stem above bottom?

[Daniel Noyes]

yeah I think your right , the alpha measurement is from the base line (tangent to the arc of the bottom) up to the rail cap, so it's about the same measurement as your design, looks like you will have pretty good ballance, mabey quite a bit less weather helm than the alpha, especially with the mizen to adjust ballance, you might get away with a little less rudder size, you might even be able to sail the boat with only the centerboard down trimming the main and mizzen!
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[Ben Fuller]

Middle thwart could be removable which would give you some bunking room. You might also think about a more efficient kick up rudder. They are pretty easy to rig if you don't mind pushing the blade down instead of a bunch of finicky rudder up/ down strings.

[kenjamin]

Hello Clint,

First off let me say that I respect your opinions and loved that rowing boat you designed and built. So understand I'm not looking to ruffle your feathers or anything. I was just wondering how this new dory of yours differs from Iain Oughtred's John Dory for which I already have plans. Don't get me wrong. I love dories and there's always room for another dory design but how is yours different than Iain's?

Fair winds,
kenjamin

[Clinton B Chase]

K, I don't mind the question at all. The John Dory is a great dory, but I wanted something with a little more breadth and a little more length and that had a profile more to my liking. My boat has a little more freeboard too. I gave up a little rowing ability to gain some stability, both initial and mostly secondary (i.e., more family friendly) and I gained a hull that would stand up to the 104 SF rig I am building.

I am also very much loving the design process and am finding it so enjoyable to be able to go from a picture in my head to a shop being built in the boat and out on the water back to the drawing board and modifying based on all that learning.

Having just seen IO's new enlarged Tammie Norrie, i can also say that it is risky drawing new boats that presume to be an improvement or variation on a theme: there is plenty to screw up. I almost did not design and build Drake, the rowboat you refer to, because I was afraid of failing. So, back in December when I went for three awesome rows in her I was thrilled. I also found small things that I would have done different.

Clint

[TerryLL]

Well Clint, I've been pondering your new design, and I think you've got a winner. Just looking at the numbers, it would appear you've made a copy of the 18' Mower dory, about the same length, same beam, same depth midships. One look at the section plan, however, and it's obvious your dory is very different from the Mower. Much narrower at the water line, slacker bilges, and strong flare to the full beam quite high up.

So my guess is she will be a fine rower with that narrow waterline. Lots of flare will make her quick and corky, but that added beam high up will make her stiffen right up when heeled.

From purely an aesthetic perspective, I really like the strong sheer forward and the modest transom angle. Any thoughts yet on the number of planks? At least four I would think.

[Clinton B Chase]

Terry, Thanks...it has been a process so far, mostly mental! I am setting up to loft her out 1/4 scale and then I'll make a model. That should really help refine the hull shape. And I'll line it off for 4 strakes on the model then transfer that info back to the lines plan and redraw the plans to show the lap lines, which makes a lot more sense and will look more like what we're used to seeing in dory plans.

I hope you are right about your observations, thanks for looking. It is funny how into the Alpha-Beachcomber I was going into this and how much more like the smaller Swampscott's it now looks (with more sheer, that's for sure)

Clint

[Clinton B Chase]

Here is a slight bump. Update is that I am drawing the boat to 1/4 size at the moment.

Also, a new thought regarding a side deck. I feel like I want to add a side deck, but my worry is always to mess up the sheer. At first I wanted a traditionally done set of gunwales but I am thinking differently. Willit's Ansel's beautiful Swampscott on the last page of WB's 09 Small Boats issue, shows a handsome side deck. I also sailed his boat briefly at one of the last JGSCW events in Mystic. I always like the way a side deck adds a component of safety, at least perceived safety, and comfort and with this being a family dory...

I'm wondering if I ought to just decide how wide to make the deck (maybe 4") and square off the sheer plank to get the deck line. That'd be the simplist way. Any thoughts on a side deck would be appreciated. Is Willits on the Forum; would love his thoughts.

Cheers,
Clint

[TerryLL]

Two of the dories I built were decked, and side decks make perfect sense in a sailing dory. Even at 4 inches, they'll keep out a lot of water when heeled over, as well as providing a comfortable place to park your rear. Keep the coaming low, say 1/2-inch or so.

I wouldn't worry about the aesthetics; that sweet sheer you drew will show off just fine. You'll need to notch a clamp into the frame heads for a solid connection, and oarlock risers. The result will be a boat that is significantly stiffer, and dryer, and more comfortable, and just as pretty.

[boatbear]

The Sea Chanty was originally drawn fully decked. I opted for a 2" gunwale rail that is very comfortable to sit on but does encourage water to gurgle in when heeled hard. This has only happened a few times in 18 years. 4" to 6" side decks would allow a few more degrees of heel.

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL405/8230927/21476713/355894684.jpg

On the other hand, the Sea Chanty has somewhat less freeboard than your new design from what I can see so far, and side decks would reduce the internal space significantly. It is good to have nice wide benches with back support for the crew. I also added the curved backrest in the stern for the old broken down skipper a couple of years ago.

[StevenBauer]

Hey Clint, have you read the fantastic story in the latest WoodenBoat about Sam Manning's 1955 dory trip from Mere Point to PEI and back? He fixed up an old dory that washed ashore in Reid State Park. Awesome read.


Steven

[Clinton B Chase]

Steven, I can't wait to read it! And thanks Charlie and Terry. Terry, I have done little thinking about construction of side-deck, but the simplist thing would be to make small deck knees that square off the sheer strake and make a place for the side deck to sit. I'll need to play with side deck width a little bit. Maybe 3" width min. with a low coaming (1/2 inch would be quite minimal, 3/4 not too much)...wouldn't steal roominess from interior. I'll need to play. The 1/4-scale model will be a great place to play with this feature. I like to add the side deck and coaming profile to my designs since they play into the overall looks...

I'll take more thoughts from folks, Dan? Ben?

[TerryLL]

If your side decks are really narrow, say 2-3 inches, and the sheer strake is good and stiff, then you can probably get by with a series of knees. Anything much wider, or if the sheer stake is limber, I'd put in a sheer clamp. It's no big deal to spring it on when the frames are set up and it really makes for a solid deck-to-sheer connection.

[Ben Fuller]

Clint,

I like small side decks especially on a low side boat. The ones on my ducker have prevented me from paying the stupidity price of getting wet a couple of times.

I recall we measured two dory types on the McGee island expedition with side and foredecks. Study plans of them are in 87 boat designs and plans can be had from Mystic.

The ducker uses a combination clamp/ inwale with the frames snaped in to create a flush fastening surface on the inboard side of the sheer plank. Instead of wooden knees duckers use bronze rods bent so that the foot fastens into a frame ( on one of the frame rivets, and bent to support. There is also a coaming bent into the deck and that provides considerable additional strength.

You might also take a look at a Beetle cat side deck.

[Clinton B Chase]

Ben, I have been procrastinating too long, I will order your book! I drew in a coaming line (level side deck) onto the lines plan profile and it looks OK...I will draw this in to the construction plans later. Ben, it is my wonderful day in the Ducker that makes me want the side deck...it made a great impression on me regarding how it strengthened the boat and made the boat more comfortable. I'll be lofting the lines in my shop over the next week or two...at 1/4 scale it doesn't take up the whole shop.

Clint

[Clinton B Chase]

OK folks. I am quarter scale lofting my boat, officially called the Deblois Street Dory. I did add in a coaming line to see how it would look in the lines, and it is pretty certain that I'll be drawing in a side deck. Some big questions are mounting. I am planning to make quite detailed construction plan for a couple methods of planking so that the boat is flexible whoever has the plans. (The first builders I hope will be my students, next school year). So, here are my thoughts:

method 1: hybrid...EWP splined bottom and glued with G-flex epoxy by West System (will take the flex of the wood). The outer bottom will be a 1/8" thick layer of G10 laminate. 3/8" plywood garboard (prob. Okoume) and 1/2" W. cedar topsides planks (if I can find wide enough stock I'll do a 4-plank; otherwise I'll have lines for a 5-plank version too). Good 'ol 5200 will be employed in the chines to seal her up for trailering, baking in the sun, etc.

method 2: All plywood glued lapstrake. EWP bottom as above for bottom with G10. The planks would be either 1/4" Sapele/Meranti or all 3/8" Okoume all epoxy glued lapstrake (9mm ply sometimes fairs better over dory frames).

The big Question is how to glue plank to framing. The frames will be laminated larch, fir or mahog/span cedar. I have had issues with stress risers when glueing planking to frames (mainly when those frames were W. Oak, incidentally) so I am wondering if the planking is glued to frames that should be a 5200 OR just screwed with a polysulfide sealant in the joint. I'll likely have 5 sets of frames with intermediate bent frames, but may omit the bent frames depending on planking style.

The only other big question is 4- or 5-plank layout. I may actually line off for both, but would save time just sticking with one layout. I like the 4-strake hull but we are talking about wider planking stock. That is not an issue if I go with all glued-lap ply but is an issue if I go hybrid (though finding wide boards for the broad, binder and sheer strakes may not be so bad).

Thoughts, comments, bad jokes?

Clint

[TerryLL]

Method 2:

Am I hearing you right? You plan on a splined solid lumber bottom, covered with an epoxy laminate skin, and ply glue-lap planks? If you're going with glue-lap planking, why not a ply bottom?

As for frame-to-plank gluing, I've always used epoxy for that connection and never had an issue.

[Clinton B Chase]

The solid EWP bottom is how Gardner always did his dories and flat bottomed boats like the Herreshoff rowboat, for instance. It makes a stiffer bottom AND one thick enough so that chine logs are not needed where gbds fasten to bottom. A ply bottom is not thick enough unless I use 3/4" thick ply which I can do but will weight more than the pine prob.

G10 is an engineered laminate that you can get in tubes, rods, sheets, many forms. I'd get sheet to fasten to the outside to protect against beachings. The G-flex epoxy would allow me to edge glue the bottom boards.

Is that clear. There are so many ways to do this....

[rbgarr]

Nice design Clint, and the process is the thing!

The recent Hurricane Island boats have fitted UMHW skid plates that work well for beaching, providing a fairly good sliding surface. It won't hold paint though.

G10 will catch badly on rocks, and when scarred and scraped has a nasty surface to it: tiny, short fiberglass splinters that you can't even see, often causing annoying infections (damhikt).

Just a thought.

[TerryLL]

Clint,
I've never built a solid-bottom/ply-lap dory, but I've seen a few that had serious problems at the gbd seam. I think Thorne has some pictures of a prime example.

A 3/4 ply bottom might be a bit heavier than the EWP when they are both dry, but if properly glassed and sealed, the gbd seam will never cause a problem. And a little extra weight in the bottom of a dory is a good thing. 3/4 is plenty of thickness for a good connection without chine logs.

The 17' John Dory I built had a 3/4 bottom, 3/8 planking on DF frames, glassed up to the first lap, and weighed in at a little over 200 pounds. Empty she floated an inch above her DWL.

As for the G-10. A few saraficial skids is all that is needed to protect the bottom.

[Clinton B Chase]

Our J. Dory had a lighter bottom, 1/2 at most, 3/8" plank stepping down to 1/4" sheer and it is full of stress risers, lots of cracking at glue joints. Did you shrink your J Dory. It is drawn to be 18'3". Curious.

Anyway, I'd be interested in more feedback about how those pine bottoms do. Thorne's boat was pretty beat up when he got it.

Did you use 3/4" Okoume on your dory bottom? That wouldn't be so heavy. In that case the G-10 on there as runners would be awesome...help protect the CB trunk.

Clint

[TerryLL]

Brain disfunction. Yes, 18'3" John Dory. All meranti ply of DF frames.

What exactly are stress rises?

[Clinton B Chase]

Stress risers are common in framed boats in glued hulls...the stresses carried by the skin of the boat get concentrated in corners; the glue joint can begin to let go. It got bad in the kid-build J. Dory we have. Fillets would have helped a lot. I think the white oak frames don't help either...they move a lot with moisture. Are your frames laminated? That would help a lot. I plan to do laminated fir or larch frames. Did you use gussets in your frames? Those were hard for the kids to do without screwing up the angles. I think laminated frames overlapping traditionally on the bottom would look great. Maybe very small fillets around the frames.

OK, so I am leaning towards a 3/4" ply bottom, 3/8" gbd, and for fun some nice solid cedar strakes for the broad, binder(s) and sheer depending on if I go 4 or 5 strake.

I'd be interested in see construction shots of your dory, Terry.

And I'd be interested in hearing more from others about how these EWP bottoms held up in Gardner's boats.

Part of me still wants to not use any ply in my boat and go all solid lumber. Decisions, decisions.

Clint

[TerryLL]

Never had stress risers in any of my boats. Thanks for that explanation. I use three-piece sawn frame construction with gussets on both sides at the floor-futtock joint, which makes a very rigid frame with the floor and futtocks all in the same plane. DF frames, screw and glue (epoxy), and never a hint of gaposis or separation. Never used fillets, or WO for frames.

All I have are shots of the John Dory fully planked on the building jig, no frame pics. But here's a shot of the Cape Ann in frame, showing frames, gussets, limbers, yada, yada.

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k365/TerryLava/CapeAnnConst2.jpg?t=1236439700

[Bill R]

Clint- if I may add my $.02.

I agree with rgbarr re the G-10 vs UHMW. I got some G-10 to experiment with in the shop for an upcoming project. I found it miserable to work with and hell on cutting tools. UHMW won't hold paint, but it machines easily and when it wears, it is smooth and won't leave splinters and sharp edges like the G-10. Much more student friendly.

[TerryLL]

Yup, UHMW is great for wear strips. We used a bunch of it in all sorts of places when I was building aluminum skiffs. Great for guards and rail caps. Machines like butter, kind of fun to work with. Very slippery and tough. Used for false bottoms on drift dories. I don't know of any type of paint or glue that sticks to it.

[Clinton B Chase]

UHMW...nylon? I just ordered some nylon to turn custom oar collars. BTW, the oar leathers WBS now sells are beautiful...very thick leather. Turns out, too thick for my oars. Anyway, I dug out my Oughtred plans to look at scantlings and recall the build. He uses 5/8" ply for bottom, 3/8" ply for gbds, and 1/4" ply for the rest. A sheer clamp is bent around the sheer in notches cut into the frames before planking begins over a set up on a strongback. This is pretty different from the traditional way of dory construction...the trick I am trying to accomplish here is taking advantage of all the plywood-epoxy stuff and still get cedar and rivets and dory laps and real dory style construction. Building something apparently simple like a dory turns out to be complex in the choices we can make nowadays with all the new materials available. Lowell's boatshop in MA still uses all solid lumber for dories, but -- defying odds -- they fiberglass over the bottoms, at least the chines!

[TerryLL]

UHMW (Ultra High Molecular Weight) is actually a polyethylene. Those scantlings sound about right, but as I tend to overbuild I used 3/8 for all the planking and 3/4 for the bottom. The sheer clamp was probably 3/4 by 1-3/4. Memory fails me. I wasn't much into photographing my work back then. Will do better on the next one.

[TerryLL]

A sheer clamp is bent around the sheer in notches cut into the frames before planking begins over a set up on a strongback. This is pretty different from the traditional way of dory construction...the trick I am trying to accomplish here is taking advantage of all the plywood-epoxy stuff and still get cedar and rivets and dory laps and real dory style construction.

A ply bottom and ply gbd, plus a notched-in sheer clamp, shouldn't interfere in any way with doing the rest of the hull in riveted solid planks. Kinda the best of both words. She'd be a stunnah, as our Aussie friends would say.

[Clinton B Chase]

Wish I had more to report on the design progress...other projects in the way. Next step is to 1/4 scale loft her and line her off for 4 strakes. But two fun tidbits are:
1) Compass Project students will be building my dory next year
2) a local marine organization has taken great interest in the dory and wants to promote it as a sail-and-oar boat for cruising the Maine coast. Out of whatever we do (web feature, articles, etc.) the hope is to find someone to commission the Compass kids' build!

This will be great b/c I wouldn't be able to start my own boat this soon! So, I am probably going to suggest all ply boat (glued-lapstrake) with the option of a riveted mahogany sheer strake and a standing lug sail for the cruising the coast. Kids can make the spars...only two to make with the boomless standing lug and one sail to fund (on our Board is a sailmaker who would make a sail that the kids would sew!). The planking will be 3/8" Okoume (3/8" Meranti would be bloody heavy) and most likely with the bottom and garboard glassed inside and out. I will include the deck in the plan but maybe omit that in the build with kids, unless an owner comes along and wants it. I'll also draw in a motor well option. Several sail plans will be drawn, maybe a "sporting rig" as Culler loved.

History of the dory would be part of the curriculum, seeing how wood is harvested/sawn, as would a final expedition in the finished boat and our other Beachcombers out to an island for an overnight.

I'll build my own "yachtier" boat to the same design later...this one will be a nice prototype. Of course, if no one commissions the kids, I may have to front the $ to start the project in Fall 09. Cool, eh?

Cheers,
Clint

[Bill R]

Back to the UMHW for a sec. (just came back to the thread) I'll bring a couple small sheets to the CP shop Friday. I have some sitting around my shop.

[Bill R]

BTW, good news on the dory. Both tidbits are great.

[TerryLL]

Hey Clint,
That's great news about your new dory. Are you guys set up as a non-profit? What is a ballpark figure for the funding required to get this build underway with the kids?
Terry

[Clinton B Chase]

Thanks Bill. Yes, Terry, a non profit. We sell the boats/get commissions. I charge for materials, then double that to cover next boat and add to the cost depending on how much staff labor is involved. We are non profit. Boats sales at this point are tiny maybe 5% but want to grow that. I have not priced out this dory yet. It would be a good deal (built by kids) for someone who wants a solid boat that isn't necessarily yacht quality. I get a deposit to cover lumber, supplies to get the project going. Spread the word.

[TerryLL]

Have you given any thought to building the boat on spec, and raffling it off as a fundraiser? The last shop I worked did this very successfully on several aluminum power skiffs.

[Clinton B Chase]

Yep, we do that often with these 12' skiffs we do...perhaps part of the agreement with the local .org is they go in on it and do the raffle together....there's a possibility. I like it. Need to get some drawings together, that will help grease the ways.

Clint

[davebrown]

i happened to note that in the launch section this month there is a feller who goes by the name of chase, with a good looking scandinavian type double ender. if that is you clinton, you did a fine job on that boat. i like the color scheme on the boat and oars too. i couldn't tell if it is very dark navy with green, or if it is black with green...congratulations! perhaps you could print one or several of the same here on the forum.

[Clinton B Chase]

Dave, Thanks for taking note! Since I am lazy I'll link to another design section

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/designing-fast-rowboat-14250-30.html

with some pictures. The color scheme is black with off white sheer strake and the oars are 9' Spruce oars varnished with a linseed oil sage green paint on the tips as is on the gunwales and thwarts, sternpost and stem. One of my favorite parts of design and new construction is envisioning the end in mind before any line is drawn and anything is cut. I saw in my minds eye exactly what you see as far as form and color scheme and the performance matches my vision too. There were lots of issues that arose in construction that were not envisioned, too!

The dory is creeping along....being quarter scale lofted per Harry Bryan's article a few issues ago. It is wonderful not doing it on my knees and being able to have the other projects in the shop (canoe woodwork, done; sail rig for a Goat Island Skiff, almost done; a flower box, not very exciting thus still in pieces) all these projects not getting in the way while I loft. I'll be making a quarter scale model of the dory and a colorized concept/sail plan drawing too.

I have decided to do a standing lug (boomless) rig, using a lug mast from a sailing skiff I will build next winter.

A couple/three groups of Compass Project kids will be building the Dory next year and I hope a local organization will be featuring the boat in its newsletters and website. Stay tuned! This will be a fine boat, I feel good about it.

Cheers,
Clint

[neilm]

Clinton,

I saw your dory in the recent Wooden Boat Mag. Nice job!

Neil

[Clinton B Chase]

The boat in the recent (#208) WoodenBoat is my open water rowboat, Drake. The dory is still but a bunch of fair lines...turning into a real boat starting in the Fall!

Thanks for checking in Neil. Stay tuned!

Clint

[stevedwyer]

Hi Clint,
It's great to hear of your progress! You are combining two of the most worthwhile activities I know of... boatbuilding and teaching/inspiring kids.

I'd be interested to hear about what you come up with on the frame question.
I found that glued lapstrake boats need very little in the frame department, but they do need rails and floors. (See Iain Oughred's book or John Brooks.)

My beach skiff was heavily built with floors and half frames, mostly to support the side rail and half decks. I could have reduced the size of the half frames substantially. I fit the frames tight to the jogs in the lapstrake planks, then used epoxy and screws to fasten. These were the hardest fits in the boat. (I devised a good pattern-making tool, if your interested.) It's a really solid boat.

If you bend in or laminate frames the will just touch the laps, so I wonder if you'll need any glue at all,
just screws or rivets and some bedding compound or boat caulk.

I had to include a photo of the Crocker Compass sailing Dory...
http://www.sailing-new-england.com/images/crocker_compass.jpg

[TerryLL]

Steve,

I think there is some confusion out there about the dory you posted as the Crocker Compass. I know SailingNewEngland.Com calls this dory a Crocker Compass, but it is actually an 18' Mower Dory named Chesuki owned by David Smith and has appeared at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival for several years. It is remarkably similar to the Compass, so the mistake would be easy to make. Here's another shot. Those side decks are pretty darn unique, as is the curved gaff and black boom.


http://www.boat-links.com/PT/PT2004/Chesuki-3.jpg

[Clinton B Chase]

I just love to Mower, absolutely gorgeous. I will build one at some point.

Steve, I will build the dory like a dory is built...setting up stem, transom and frames on the bottom, turning it upside down on a strongback, and bending a sheer clamp in there then planking. I intend to do 4 strakes, 3 glued-lapstrake ply (3/8") and a sheer strake of some nice species (mahog?) riveted in place. It will be a tough, tough boat suited for use on the Maine Island Trail, hard miles on a trailer, and potential use for the family. I'll pretty much follow Gardner's advice in the dory book. I like the sheer clamp to help pull together the frames and provide a sheer line for planking to. I'll probably do 5 frames, but may do more and use lighter scantlings and spruce. 5 seems enough and they'll need not be quite as beefy as what Gardners specs in how write-ups. I may do laminated spruce or I may find some naturally grown larch! The interior will be at least partially bright so the grown frames would be pretty and I think larch is gorgeous. The bottom will be plywood or for traditional looks a glued up splined pine bottom using West System's G-flex epoxy and well sealed. I have it all in my little brain....look forward to drawing the construction plan and making some decisions. I want to line it for 5 planks and have the option of doing it all in solid lumber, the "right" way. I wonder how Chamberlain would plank a dory nowadays? There's a place for conjecture. Gardner was fine with plywood, so am I. But to drop the frames takes the traditional look out of the boat and the traditional feel out of her construction. I've built a bunch of dories, but never the real way. Part of the excitement for me is to build a true dory, but take advantage of the great materials we have.

Steve, my students at Compass will be building the Deblois Street Dory and if all goes well there will be some sail-and-oar adventures at the end of the year using our Beachcombers and this new dory.

Cheers,
Clint

[TerryLL]

Hey Clint,

Speaking of Mower. I got the plans for the 22' Mower X-Dory from Mystic a few months back. If you're looking for a BIG racing dory, with room for all the family plus pets, this might be the dory for you.

[Daniel Noyes]

wow 22' cool, how many frames? is it decked? I recently got a look at a photo of a 20' racing dory half model by Edwin Boardman 1908, looks nice, very similar to the Mower hulls.
As long as we're on favorite dorys mine is the photo in Gardners Dory Book
page 214 center left #2 on the sail, it is in the chapter on the Alpha dory but clearly isn't. It has a full deck with oval coaming and beautifull flat stem profile...I wonder if it should have been in the tweedle dum chapter? I also love the shot of the Alpha on saw horses, I can look out my window and see the same sight!
Clint what are you thinking about decking for your boat design?
Look forward to see you this Saturday at the Essex river race.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[TerryLL]

Hi Dan,

The Mower X-Dory has six frames and 5 planks, half-decked. It is very similar to the dory on p. 214 you mentioned, except the aft coaming is not oval. Very shallow forefoot with the stem flowing in a fair curve into the bottom plank. 202 feet of sail, 5-8-0 beam, 4-9-0 WL beam. The whole aspect of the hull in section is very flat and wide, much like the Indian, but with a narrower transom. She carries the big alpha-dory rig, but I think she'd be more manageable as a gaff yawl.

[Daniel Noyes]

Sounds like a exciting boat.
Speaking of new sailing dory designs, I had the chance to design and build the Peggy Bliss, She is my current thinking on the sailng dory.
It is interesting how many new dory builds are going with traditional type hulls and really experimenting with very new/ different rigs.
When designing Ipswich Bay 18' "Peggy Bliss" I went with a very traditional sail plan, infact we brought a photo copy of historical photos on page 214 of the Dory Book to the sail maker so he could get the pannels and proportions just so!
The design changes were a radical redesign of the hull shape, building on the flat stem profiles of later racing dories and incorporating the wide flat transom of the Town Class sailing dory into a wide flat and light weight design.
The big change was the flat bottom, rather than try and minimize the bottom width I brought the bottom wide, 3' then incorporated a quick turn of the bilge. This shape would be near imopssible to lapstrake plank in anything but plywood, but the owner wanted smooth sides so cedar strip planking was used to good effect.
To compare this boats stats to the Mower
180 sq.ft. sail in a trad. leg-o-mutton rig
Loa. 18'
lwl. 12 1/2'
beam 5'2"
beam at waterline 4'8"
This hull develops it's power at the hard turn of the bilge and the wide transom.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/3099633754_a1c7063e46.jpg?v=0
http://dansdories.googlepages.com/Slide2small.jpg/Slide2small-large.jpg (http://dansdories.googlepages.com/Slide2small.jpg/Slide2small-full.jpg)

[TerryLL]

Dan,
I understand that your Ipswich Bay 18 evolved from the basic dory shape, but looking at the lines, and the construction method, it would never occur to me to call this boat a dory. I've often wondered what exactly makes a dory a dory, and I've posed that question a couple of times before on this forum. It remains a mystery.

Whatever she is, she looks elegant, and fast. Why don't you bring her out to Idaho and take me for a sail.

[Daniel Noyes]

Is it a dory for the sailor? no, a fiber glass boat in the shape of a traditional dory will be more dory like. is it a dory for the builder...pretty close, there is much more historic dory building techniques in the Ipswich Bay 18 than in a fiberglass boat that looks exactly like a historic lapstrake dory.

The lines, or lack there of (laps) is probably the most obvious, also the wide transom is a major departure from the double ended (on the bottom) boats. The town class is only 16' over all but it will sail as fast as a Alpha, that is the wide transom and attending increase in sail area possible.
While reparing townies a 1940's era townie came in dory built with carvel sides, this boat encouraged me to consider strip planking a dory.
When building the IB 18 I built it on the "bed" a strong back setup used for 200 yrs along the Merrimack for dory building, The bottom was cut to shape bent on the bed and planked from there, the build was more similar to a dory build than a keel based hull or a modern jig/ strong back type build, so...I would call it a contemporary dory.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[Daniel Noyes]

Clint I really liked the details on Drake and am considering a rework of the Alpha rails, I want to epoxy coat them to reduce checking of the ply but may re work the rails to the Alpha design in the dory book with a raised section at the oar locks and a bead along the sheer at the rail stem and stern.
Nice job on Drake
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[johnw]

Steve,

I think there is some confusion out there about the dory you posted as the Crocker Compass. I know SailingNewEngland.Com calls this dory a Crocker Compass, but it is actually an 18' Mower Dory named Chesuki owned by David Smith and has appeared at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival for several years. It is remarkably similar to the Compass, so the mistake would be easy to make. Here's another shot. Those side decks are pretty darn unique, as is the curved gaff and black boom.


http://www.boat-links.com/PT/PT2004/Chesuki-3.jpg

Chesuki is more like 20' long. And that funny cutout in the deck aft is very handy when you're ducking under that low boom. Fun boat to sail!

[TerryLL]

John,

Thanks for that information. I have often wondered about the shape of the side decks aft. Your explanation makes perfect sense. I got the length and the hull type off the PT Festival web site. Hope to someday have a chat with the builder.

[Daniel Noyes]

Chesuki is more like 20' long. And that funny cutout in the deck aft is very handy when you're ducking under that low boom. Fun boat to sail!

I can imagine the cut away deck would help . The boom is real long and low, but thats not the original sail plan or boom height, was the cut out done to accomodate the new sail plan?
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[johnw]

I can imagine the cut away deck would help . The boom is real long and low, but thats not the original sail plan or boom height, was the cut out done to accomodate the new sail plan?
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com
Dave Smith is a demon sail carrier. The original was leg-of-mottun, and he added the curved gaff, and I think built the sail as big as possible regardless of the sail plan. When you're reaching and you get a little puff, suddenly the stern wave is almost as tall as the transom and loud, because the boat won't plane. In it's conditions -- reaching in light to moderate winds -- the boat is very quick.

Dave's a hell of a nice guy, if you see him at the festival he'll be happy to chat and might even take you out on the boat.

[TerryLL]

I missed PT last year, too busy. But this year I'm going no matter what.

[stevedwyer]

Can't wait to see the dory Clint!
I really hope you keep us posted on her progress with some photos as she comes together.

[Daniel Noyes]

Dave Smith is a demon sail carrier. The original was leg-of-mottun, and he added the curved gaff, and I think built the sail as big as possible regardless of the sail plan. When you're reaching and you get a little puff, suddenly the stern wave is almost as tall as the transom and loud, because the boat won't plane. In it's conditions -- reaching in light to moderate winds -- the boat is very quick.

Dave's a hell of a nice guy, if you see him at the festival he'll be happy to chat and might even take you out on the boat.

Very nice,
how does the boat feel when heeling does it harden up or do you have to put weight on the rail to slow the heel? great description of the stern wave, we have had it up to the sheer strake on the lee side sailing the Alpha. Sailing the Ipswich Bay 18 the stern wave is not even noticeable the wide transom lifts the boat right past hull speed. This photo is at hull speed +-6 mph, thats as big as the stern wave gets, you can actually see the water is already beginning to seperate at the transom.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/3099633754_a1c7063e46.jpg?v=0

I agree with Dave about the sail size if you are going to be sailing in light winds the traditional dory is a little under canvassed. Our average wind speed around Broad Sound is 8-10 mph I increased the Alpha sail plan by half from 100 +- to 150 sq ft.
Marblehead, Salem, Beverly, Swampscott, just the other side of Cape Anne where these boats were historically sailed has average summer winds of 15 + mph, and is open from the south west so has rough water, the big rig is actually slower in these conditions where a small rig can carry full sail sheeted in and the lighter rig stresses the boat less in the heavy waves. It's kind of counter intuitive but when you have to spill wind from the big sail (to keep the boat on it's feet) a smaller sail will be faster.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[johnw]

Chesuki has a pretty good shoulder on her, she picks up a lot of stability when that goes in. I'm trying to remember what design David said she is. He told me the lines were published without offsets, and he had to measure very carefully to take the offsets off. I'm thinking she might be the Sea Chanty design with a lot less deck and a bit more sail. In the Dory Book that design is published as "18 foot," though if you look at the specs it is 20 feet on deck. Might account for the confusion about the design.

We do often have light winds in this area, which I'm sure is why he went with the bigger rig.

[TerryLL]

Well, now I am completely confused. I've heard Chesuki described as a Crocker Compass, a Mower dory, a Mower X-Dory, and now a Sea Chanty.

The Sea Chanty (aka Tweedledum and Tweedledee) is indeed 20', though described as an 18' dory by Gardner, and her lines were published without offsets.

The two boats at the top of my short list for a next build are the Mower X-Dory and the Alden Indian. Very similar hulls except for the transom width and the rudder/skeg arrangement. The Sea Chanty is running a close third. It's a tough decision.

[johnw]

Well, now I am completely confused. I've heard Chesuki described as a Crocker Compass, a Mower dory, a Mower X-Dory, and now a Sea Chanty.

The Sea Chanty (aka Tweedledum and Tweedledee) is indeed 20', though described as an 18' dory by Gardner, and her lines were published without offsets.

The two boats at the top of my short list for a next build are the Mower X-Dory and the Alden Indian. Very similar hulls except for the transom width and the rudder/skeg arrangement. The Sea Chanty is running a close third. It's a tough decision.

Just to confuse you a little further, John Leather published a Mower design a lot like Sea Chanty in Sail and Oar, 21 ft. on deck. I think it was a Massachusetts Bay racing dory. That one has offsets.

[Clinton B Chase]

My boat is sort of inspired by these beamy racing boats. Mine has the girth of a Beachcomber in the length of a Culler size dory. The Deblois STreet dory is 18'5" between perps as drawn. I will probably build it to 19'2-19'6" with the Compass kids so we can squeeze more little ones in there.

Dan thanks for your comments on Drake and it was nice to see you and Spear again!

Deblois Street dory lofting will pick up again in a couple weeks after a job gets out of my shop!

Cheers,
CLint

[Clinton B Chase]

To deck or not to deck. I am starting to really juggle construction options, now that I have decided to go 5 strake and modeling has started. My big Q is whether or not to deck. My main concern is that it interferes with the look of the boat in profile unless I keep the deck level and use a very low coaming. What do folks think? It'd make the boat a lot more seaworthy in my view. The other option that I like is an open gunwale, with an inwale running the length over notched frames and bent oak frames and let into the breasthook and landing on the transom. That would look very nice too.

Cheers,
Clint

[kenjamin]

Check out this thread with pictures of James McMullen's Rowan:

http://www.mavc2002.com/cyforum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=784&sid=79a8fd6690e112f477320c1ffe15971e

James claims that decks set below the sheer are much more comfortable to sit on and do not mess up the looks of the boat.
I think he's right on that for what it's worth.

[TerryLL]

Depends somewhat on how you plan to use the boat. If you plan to sail her hard, with the rail under or nearly so, and you perched up on the other side, then decks will keep a lot of loose water out, and provide a more comfortable seat, plus dry storage. If rowing is more the intent, then side decks will require raised oarlocks, higher thwarts, and more windage.

Now, if aesthetics is your main objection to decks, take another look at Charlie's decked Sea Chanty, which is a beauty from any angle.

[Daniel Noyes]

Clint
My thoughts on decks are go big or go home. A small deck at rail height forces the sailor to sit towards the center of the boat OR up on the deck ther is not much inbetween, If the deck is wide you can sit on the deck and adjust weight to trim the boat, you have seen the Ipswich Bay 18 thats my idea of a deck and the Alpha is about as wide as I would go with a rail.
you dont need to sit on a deck and adjust your weight to trim the alpha because the seats are used like a sliding seat on a canoe.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3269/3098800577_04a05fec7e.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3170/3098800687_306cd453ef.jpg?v=0

[Clinton B Chase]

I have finished lines for the Deblois Street Dory and a nice drawing. See drawing at my website:
http://www.clintchaseboatbuilder.com/3.html

I am thinking about construction right now. One question regards whether to go pinned centerboard or dagger board. Pro of a DB is that it takes less space and the DB can be used (potentially) as the aft seat when rowing. Otherwise it is in the daggerboard case. The pro of the CB is that it stays int he case out of the way and it might be useful to help as a little lateral resistance when rowing in a crossbreeze by dropping it in the water an inch or two. Thoughts?

Clint

[kenjamin]

There's no law saying you can't have an extra (extra short) daggerboard for that crossbreeze (it could double as a chopping block when fishing if it's oak). Whatever you do watch out for darn plastic rope guides that some people mount on their gunwales! They're vicious!!!:o

[johnw]

centerboards are nice because they kick up when you run onto a beach. Just one more plus.

[Clinton B Chase]

Good points guys. I am detailing the lines plan so have some time to figure this out. The daggerboard, if it could double as the aft rowing thwart would be really convenient for using the boat as a trail boat, which is part of the idea (Maine island Trial) so I'll draw that in. And we'll draw in the centerboard. Then there is a choice for future builders...it's a nice option to have. That means I can further delay.

The other option I think would be great to have in there is a side deck configuration or no side deck configuration. My own build is down the line, but we'll let this fall's builders have these as key options.

Will keep you posted!