Pettit varnishes: what's the difference?

[mr.moto]

I've sent this question to "Ask the Experts" on the Pettit website twice and never gotten a reply. Maybe this is where I should have posted it to begin with! I'm wondering what differences I'm likely to notice between Captain's Varnish and Flagship. The spec sheets are extraordinarily similar. Has anybody used both and found some differences? While I'm asking questions, what pros and cons might I find to Pettit EasyPoxy - which I understand is pure phenolic - as compared to the other two which are alkyd/phenolic? EasyPoxy is considerably pricier.
BTW, I'm a woodstrip canoe/kayak builder and this varnish would primarily be used over epoxy for UV protection and just because I like the appearance.

[BC Bill]

I always wondered that too - never did figure it out. Been using System 3 over epoxy with pretty good results so I quit wondering.

[Bob Triggs]

I find it hard to believe that you do not see the difference between these two formulations. You must be new at this...Let me be of assistance to you; we are going to do a simple comparsion experiment. Subsequent observations should clear this up quickly enough.

First, you will need a good pair of magnifying reading glasses. Then make sure you have a really good source of light; natural full-spectrum light is best for this. Next you will need one quart of Flagship Varnish and one quart of Captain's Varnish. Expensive I know, but well worth it. (Note: If you can not afford a full-spectrum artist's lamp then you can do this test outdoors on a sunny day as an alternative.) Gloss finishes are easily comparison tested in this manner.

Now;(without opening) orient both cans of the varnish side by side, in parallel, so that you can see each equally. Make sure you have the glasses on to do this correctly! Now; read the labels very carefully, while holding the cans at about 18 to 24 inches from your face. Best to keep them upright for this too. If you can arrange the cans in your hands so that the labels are facing the same way all of the time, say you have the information side facing you at this point, and all of that stuff about "VOC" and "EPA" and "Preparation", "Application", Drying Time", all of that stuff should be facing toward you.

Now scan the labels very carefully. There is a lot of information printed there. It can be confusing. What you are looking for is a little small stick-on tag placed somewhere on each of the cans. (Note: Most of the time the tags will be covering something that you wanted to read in the instructions anyway so look there first.) On some cans these stickers will be brightly colored. That's a big clue right there. Once you find the stickers on the cans you can get the correct information on the differences in varnish formulation. This information will not be on a "MSDS" nor will they tell you this at the factory. Varnish Makers can be quite secretive.

In some cases the tags will be stuck either on the bottom,(rarely), or more commonly on the top of the cans. There should be some small numbers printed on those tags. If you compare the digits printed on one tag to the digits printed on the other tag you will most likely see a significant difference in the overall number right there. You may subtract one set of digits from the other to arrive at a difference that is exact. This is called: a "difference in price". This is the primary difference between Captain's and Flagship varnish.

Now, go do a search and look up Jay Greer's Homeric thread on Varnish elsewhere in the site. There are better ways....

[Gold Rock]

You know, there's no reason to throw your expertise in our faces, Bob. Just because you got lern-ded reel good when you wuz yung, duzent meen wee downt hav feeling tooo.

Chuk

[pcford]

Flagship and Captain's are both excellent varnishes. The differences are minor. Most speedboats refinishers use Epifanes. Though some use Italian varnishes.

[gregleeber]

for a hard core ADHD suferer that was an incredibly painful read ! DONT DO THAT AGAIN !

[Bob Triggs]

I have been snowed in here for several days...no telling what I might do next....ehhehe.

But seriously...

nah...screw that. :D

[David G]

Mr. Moto,

I'll take a stab at a slightly more serious reply.

I've used both products, at the clients request, though it's been a number of years ago. As I recall, the Flagship was a bit thicker. As you probably know, most wood finishes consist primarily of three components: resins, oils, and solvents. A thicker varnish probably has more resins (that's a good thing), and less oils and solvents. So, each coat applied will leave behind a thicker dry film, allowing you to build depth and protection faster. The only downsides are: resins are the more expensive component, and the sale price of these varnishes tends to reflects that fact; thicker varnishes sometimes take an inexperienced brush-handler a bit longer to get the hang of.

Hope that's helpful.


"Those who speak most of progress measure it by quantity and not by quality" -- George Santayana

[Canoeyawl]

It is all about the UV inhibitors. They are expensive and the better ones are really expensive. The actual UV inhibitor formulas are proprietary.
(Remember the Chemist?)
Z-Spar used to claim on the can (Flagship) that it had 7 times more UV resistance than standard varnish (Captains?)
My experience with both indicates some truth to this. The varnising process is so laborious that I want the best product I can get, I don't bother with captains these days.

[Todd D]

I find the differences to be:

1. Flagship is more expensive by about $2-$3 a quart

2. Flagship holds up a bit better in the sun.

I sometimes use Captains or Flagship for build coats. I always use Epiphanes for finish coats unless I am trying for a really durable finish. In that case I use either Interlux Perfection (2 part) or Epiphanes 2 part. Both are hard as nails and stand up very, very well.

[pcford]

I find the differences to be:

1. Flagship is more expensive by about $2-$3 a quart

2. Flagship holds up a bit better in the sun.

I sometimes use Captains or Flagship for build coats. I always use Epiphanes for finish coats unless I am trying for a really durable finish. In that case I use either Interlux Perfection (2 part) or Epiphanes 2 part. Both are hard as nails and stand up very, very well.

Are these 2 parts LPUs? If so, they are generally considered to be a no-no around here. Too stiff for wood. Wonderful on plastic though.

To further muddy the waters for the original poster:

Some time in the late 80s I was walking down a dock at Shilshole, a major marina here in Seattle. I met a former client; I had done his boat in the early 70s. I asked him how his boat was doing. He said my finish was still on the boat. His boat was in outside moorage; it had been varnished twice a year like ANY varnish would have to be in this neighborhood.

The varnish I used? Man O'War. Even then it was not a "hip" varnish to use.

The moral to the story...any decent varnish is going to be ok. If the boat is outside you have to recoat. If it is covered moorage one can go years without recoating.

Just varnish the boat; everything is going to be fine. Sometimes people get hung up...if the boat were a speedboat I would use Epifanes, but any good varnish is going to look great. Heck, you might even try the Behr var(Tru-Tone) varnish that is thought to be a miracle product by some.

[lesharo]

No to Petit Bak V Spar! I've had two bad failures with this. There is no way it is the same material it once was. No reason to touch it whatsoever! It went flat like nothing I've ever seen!

Captains definitely thinner. But had good resistance to bleaching from what I've seen, held its color well. Contrary to say Schooner or Interlux Goldspar or Epifanes which actually darkens with age (or at least did). Captains seems to stay pretty transparent, rather than opaque.

[Lew Barrett]

I have been using Flagship on my latest project because that's what the builder used. I have much more experience with Epifanes. I have been happily surprised with how easy and forgiving this varnish has been, even working in cold temperatures. My shop is rarely heated beyond 55 degrees or so.

It goes on and flows out with just minimal thinning, and dries to a sandable finish overnight, with good filling and build. I haven't tried Captains as yet, but if it has the brushing qualities of Flagship, I'd say it's an excellent product in respect to ease of application compared to Epifanes. This (Flagship) is a high quality product that is easy to apply compared to the European formulas.