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Leon m
12-17-2008, 03:18 PM
From: Robert Redford - NRDC Action Fund <alerts@nrdcactionfund.org>

Leon, we only have a few days left to mobilize one million Americans against the Bush-Cheney plan to auction off America's Redrock wilderness to oil and gas speculators.

Please FORWARD my message to everyone you know and help block this outrageous giveaway of our natural heritage. Thank you for doing your part to save this natural treasure. -- Robert Redford


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Dear Friend,

No one voted on Election Day to hand over Utah's Redrock wilderness to oil companies.

But the Bush Administration cynically chose that very day to advance an outrageous plan that will sell off leases for some 160,000 acres of spectacular Utah canyonlands to oil and gas
speculators.

While America was voting for Barack Obama and his vision of a clean energy future, Bush and Cheney's underlings were conspiring to plunder one of the crown jewels of our natural
heritage for their fossil fuel cronies.

Please register your own opposition right now:
http://www.nrdconline.org/ct/Z1AFbNs13PJm/

The auction of Redrock country will take place on December 19. At stake are world-renowned vistas near Canyonlands and Arches National Parks, as well as near Dinosaur National Monument. The highest bidders will earn the right to turn vast tracts of pristine wilderness into industrial wastelands.

It's bad enough that Bush officials went behind the backs of the American people with this disastrous scheme. But what's worse, they didn't even tell their own National Park Service until
after the fact.

In my mind, this theft of our heritage goes beyond the cynical -- it's criminal. What will be left to give to our children and their children if we allow this administration, in a parting shot, to destroy our legacy of public lands for short-term gain?

I hope you're as angry as I am about this blatant land grab, because we've got to stop it -- and we have to act fast. The NRDC Action Fund is mobilizing more than one million Americans in an outpouring of protest over the coming days.

Tell the Bush Administration that you will not allow it to destroy one of the most beautiful places on Earth.

We'll automatically send copies of your message to your two senators, your representative and to the Obama transition team, which has signaled their opposition to this disastrous attack on
our Redrock heritage.

The Bush Administration is racing to complete the auction of our lands before Inauguration Day, which will make sales difficult to reverse.

We must fend off this land grab now -- before the oil and gas companies can lay claim to the spoils.

Those spoils include stretches of Desolation Canyon, which has been proposed for national park status. Bush's own Interior Department describes the canyon as "a place where a visitor can
experience true solitude -- where the forces of nature continue to shape the colorful, rugged landscape."

The very idea of oil and gas operations invading these remote sanctuaries -- which have remained untouched for millennia -- is deeply upsetting. Once the dirty deed is done, our wilderness can never be restored. That's why I'm asking you to help us sound the alarm and organize now.

Tell the Bush Administration to cancel the Redrock auction:
http://www.nrdconline.org/ct/Z1AFbNs13PJm/

Remind them that we the people are the rightful owners of this majestic wilderness and that we won't stand for its destruction.

And thank you for joining with me and the NRDC Action Fund to save these beautiful wildlands for all future generations.

Sincerely,

Robert Redford
NRDC Action Fund

P.S. After you send your own message of protest, I'll let you know of an easy way to spread the word to your friends and family:
http://www.nrdconline.org/ct/Z1AFbNs13PJm/ . With only 10 days to mobilize one million Americans, I'm counting on you to rally everyone you know to speak out and save this precious wilderness from destruction.

Captain Blight
12-17-2008, 03:25 PM
So this letter that's from Rob't Redford. Is it good because it's from a dedicated environmentalist with deep ties to the land, or is it bad because it's from a Brie-chewing intellectual member of the Hollywood elite?

John of Phoenix
12-17-2008, 03:30 PM
Ironic justice for Utah's blind ideological support for dubya and all his policies.

Leon m
12-17-2008, 03:32 PM
So this letter that's from Rob't Redford. Is it good because it's from a dedicated environmentalist with deep ties to the land, or is it bad because it's from a Brie-chewing intellectual member of the Hollywood elite?

Good...and I'll add he's a good man period .:)

Leon m
12-17-2008, 03:34 PM
Ironic justice for Utah's blind ideological support for dubya and all his policies.

But let's not get the people confused with the nature.;) :)

Gary E
12-17-2008, 03:36 PM
THe country needs the gas...
If redneck wants to stop it, let him bid on the lease and use it for looking at moose...

Leon m
12-17-2008, 03:38 PM
THe country needs the gas...
...

"THe country" needs to wise up, or gas aint gunna get you anyware.;)

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
12-17-2008, 03:44 PM
THe country needs the gas...


Eat more beans.

LeeG
12-17-2008, 03:45 PM
I'm worried about what shale oil and oil sands extraction will do to the land more than drilling. I wonder what the expected amounts and barrel price to make it profitable?

seems to me any authorization for exploration and drilling should have an associated fee for increasing energy efficiency. We're now at a place where the TOTAL cost of oil consumption has to be addressed. To simply drill without addressing consequences of consuming a NON-RENEWABLE resource is more irresponsible than the defacement of natural scenery as it will CONDEMN subsequent generations to inheriting an infrastructure they cannot afford or operate.
We're going to deface the earth, it's inevitable. What isn't inevitable is how we do it.

The war in Iraq is a reflection of our energy policy,,we can't afford doing the same thing over and over again.

Gary E
12-17-2008, 03:49 PM
So how do you heat your house Leon?..
Did you give away your car yet??
How is your electricity generated??

Go live in the woods.. there you wont need modern facilities

Leon m
12-17-2008, 03:52 PM
So how do you heat your house Leon?..
Did you give away your car yet??
How is your electricity generated??

Go live in the woods.. there you wont need modern facilities

OK...I will.

Leon m
12-17-2008, 04:13 PM
It's OUR land people...lets save it...Go to the site, it's easy. Giddy up lets go !

skuthorp
12-17-2008, 04:18 PM
Sooner or later it will all be used up, it's just a moral question as too how much damage we are prepared to countenance in the process.

BrianW
12-17-2008, 04:24 PM
Should of let them drill ANWR. :)

John of Phoenix
12-17-2008, 04:38 PM
They'll get to ANWR. Near offshore as well. Arctic Ocean too.

Lots of time. They'll get it all. Everywhere.

Glen Longino
12-17-2008, 04:49 PM
So how do you heat your house Leon?..
Did you give away your car yet??
How is your electricity generated??

Go live in the woods.. there you wont need modern facilities

There won't be any woods to live in if you leave it up to GW.

RonW
12-17-2008, 05:10 PM
It would seem as if G.W. and his faithfull sidekick (shotgun chenney) won't be vacationing this year in Utah..

Chris Ostlind
12-17-2008, 05:27 PM
THe country needs the gas...
If redneck wants to stop it, let him bid on the lease and use it for looking at moose...


Gary... One could almost confuse you with someone who has an idea of what he speaks. Many of the lands mentioned in the Redford letter have been hastily withdrawn from consideration during this go-round. It would seem that very strongly worded legal action threats with attendant expenses fully tagged to the Rep Admin have hit their mark.

This state is certainly the reddest of the red any any you count the heads, but there are still quite a few folks here with very powerful ties to other kinds of political power. Existing in Congress and soon to be the Presidency, kinds of power.

Several of the included locations are just loaded with archeological sites from primitve man. Several are right up next to a major river, the Green, that connects directly to the Colorado, the water source for most of the Southwestern US. Now, maybe it's OK with you if petro-chemical spills and geological seepage due to drilling and its rather fun side effects contribute to your water supply directly. Unfortunately, the good Republicans of Nevada, Arizona and Southern California also get to consume the water, and they ain't so happy about the prospects.

The material is out there with but a tiny effort on your part. Please do some research before you spout-off, as I don't think you really have one clue as to what is really going out here in quiet old Utah.

BrianW
12-17-2008, 05:53 PM
The material is out there with but a tiny effort on your part. Please do some research before you spout-off, as I don't think you really have one clue as to what is really going out here in quiet old Utah.

Chris,

Sounds like you're not happy with out-of-state folks trying to dictate what happens in Utah. Well, that's how it is with these do-good groups. They love to control others.

Welcome to the brotherhood of the leave-my-state alone club. :) Alaska is a charter member.

LeeG
12-17-2008, 05:56 PM
THe country needs the gas...
If redneck wants to stop it, let him bid on the lease and use it for looking at moose...

the country needs to use oil according to it's total cost. The damage done to ancient artifacts in Iraq is a consequence of mindless demand for oil where a vice president calls conservation a fine thing as a personal ethic but not a realistic part of a national policy.

Investment in higher efficiency infrastructure will take as long as drilling oil in new areas to result in benefits. New cars will take 15yrs to turn over half the cars on the road.

You know that phrase "a penny saved is a penny earned"?..the infrastructure that can make X$ from a barrel of oil instead of .8X just did the same as finding more oil.

It is irresponsible to initiate any new drilling without substantial committment to using oil much more efficiently. Gasoline should go up an expected amount so car buyers and builders will plan accordingly. Every year nothing is done makes the adjustments that much more expensive for our children and grandchildren.

"you had all the data, you knew oil was going to peak and decline in prouction and you did nothing except use it up"

That's right,,our need is all that matters.

ccmanuals
12-17-2008, 06:20 PM
Well, that's how it is with these do-good groups. They love to control others

I'm pretty sure that the do good groups only want to help you protect your state not destroy it. It's the BLM and Interior you need to keep your eye on, not those "groups". Of course, if you don't care about the pristine beauty of our national parks then this would not interest you.

Gary E
12-17-2008, 06:38 PM
The material is out there with but a tiny effort on your part. Please do some research before you spout-off, as I don't think you really have one clue as to what is really going out here in quiet old Utah.

Go back to sleep

Let redneck and hiz rich buddies save the world, they can afford ANYTHING THEY WANT
the rest of the regular people need the oil and gas... and I spose cut down a few trees to.

Edit
I just saw that on the news... It's NOT in the park... and it's been know for SEVEN YEARS that this was to be auctioned...
SO... WHAT WERE YOU and REDNECK DOING FOR SEVEN YEARS???

Seems it was a 7 yr sleep... continue

Leon m
12-17-2008, 07:57 PM
Go back to sleep

I just saw that on the news... It's NOT in the park... and it's been know for SEVEN YEARS that this was to be auctioned...
SO... WHAT WERE YOU and REDNECK DOING FOR SEVEN YEARS???

Seems it was a 7 yr sleep... continue

So what if it's not in the park...It's still unspoiled land...and as far as what me and "REDNECK" have been doing for the last seven years...fighting it, why do you think it hasn't been sold. And once "REDNECK" Bush and Cheney are out, it'll stay that way.

So Gary what ya so afraid of anyway ? Afraid you might have to drive a fuel efficient car some day...one that doesn't quite express your manly-ness. Or maybe your afraid that some day the hippies will finally take over and you'll have to ware sandals and burn candles. Or are you pi$$ed because they put a black man in the white house, and now your Rush Limbough world is turned all upside down?

It's OK Gary, we love you...turn away from the dark and step into the light .:)

Leon m
12-17-2008, 08:05 PM
This ?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3124/2626431109_b3981d8ded.jpg?v=0

Gary E
12-17-2008, 08:11 PM
So is it PUBLIC land?.. or is it PRIVATE??

BUY it... then YOU can control it...

Leon m
12-17-2008, 08:19 PM
Or This ?

http://www.progressnowaction.org/sync/images/752.jpg

Leon m
12-17-2008, 08:25 PM
So is it PUBLIC land?.. or is it PRIVATE??

BUY it... then YOU can control it...

Gary, the only way your going to feel better about this, is if you go to the Redford sight and send a letter to Washington telling them not to sell...trust me you'll feel great about youself knowing you saved that wilderness...go ahead, do it...trust me, you'll wake up feeling like you did something positive for the world you live in . You have the power Gary...JUST DO IT. :)

Tom Galyen
12-17-2008, 08:32 PM
You know that they are not going to drill there for quite a while, not as long as the price of oil keeps going down. If you want to make a positive contribution why not come up with a list of places where the oil companies might drill for oil? It should of course be places where oil actually exists. It is always easy to say why something can't be done but much more difficult to come up with PRACTICAL solutions.

Tom G. (Seaweed)

BrianW
12-17-2008, 08:36 PM
...and as far as what me and "REDNECK" have been doing for the last seven years...fighting it, why do you think it hasn't been sold.

That doesn't make sense. What about this quote in Redfords letter...


It's bad enough that Bush officials went behind the backs of the American people with this disastrous scheme. But what's worse, they didn't even tell their own National Park Service until
after the fact.

If you've known and been fighting this for 7 years, it's hardly being done behind anyones back. Also, if it's true it's not in the Park, then why the comment about the NPS not being told until after the fact?

This doesn't pass the sniff test. I detect much hyperbole and half-truths. Not surprised, it's the standard tactic of these groups.

Gary E
12-17-2008, 08:38 PM
Hope Exxon, Chevron.. and T Boone gets some of it :)

Leon m
12-17-2008, 08:38 PM
why not come up with a list of places where the oil companies might drill for oil? It should of course be places where oil actually exists. It is always easy to say why something can't be done but much more difficult to come up with PRACTICAL solutions.

Tom G. (Seaweed)

How bout we just keep getting our oil from where we're getting it now...and in the mean time work on alternatives, and develop the ones that we KNOW work...thus decreasing our demand.

RonW
12-17-2008, 08:40 PM
Brian, you must be half bloodhound........or don't believe half of the krapt that is put out......

LeeG
12-17-2008, 08:53 PM
dutch

Chris Ostlind
12-17-2008, 09:01 PM
Brian,

It's not that I'm sensitive about outsiders determining what is good for the state in which I live. Most of the open lands here are held by the Feds, much like they are in Alaska. I figure that the land and its potential, belong to all Americans and not just for the benefit of Petro-chemical firms, or ranchers, or avocado sandwich munching backpackers, or ATV riders, or nude sun bathers, or militaristic ex-hippies and on and on.

It's that our boy, Gary, is just as guilty of shooting off his mouth about this topic, as are the tree huggers. He, apparently, has little to no collected wisdom on the subject and he's simply spouting party line rhetoric to fill the air with his noise. It's truly pitiful when there is so much available on the Web and it can be had with but a keystroke or two.

You want to have an opinion on the subject, then study it. I'm not necessarily a Redford fan by any stretch, but he does have one very solid argument when he says that once it's gone, it's gone forever. For chrissakes, there is still a monstrous mound of uranium tailings just sitting at the side of the Colorado River. It's been there since the 50's when the mining industry simply left it there and wandered away as if they had no responsibility to clean that crap off the landscape.

I tell you proponents of drilling in the Red Rock Country what... You guys take steps to get that pile of radioactive crap removed, facilitate the proper legislation and funding and then we'll talk about the drilling thing. I think that it would show an overwhelming sense of responsibility to the environment in which we all have to live and it would restore a now totally screwed-up section of one of America's most important rivers. There's your chance to prove that you will be good stewards of the land something like it says in the Bible... that book that is so often coveted by the same characters when they want to look righteous.

And Gary E, I'd expect you to be the first guy out there with your rented backhoe, making sure the radioactive pile is removed properly. That is, if you have the sack to actually do something more than sit and spin on your ridiculous monologues based on limited knowledge.

Gary E
12-17-2008, 09:06 PM
Dream on... you seem good at it....
7 yrs,,, and NOTHING to show for your efforts? WHY?

BrianW
12-17-2008, 09:07 PM
Chris,

I'm all for the fine citizens of Utah controlling what happens in Utah. Might not be exactly the same as your thoughts, but close.

As far as the tailings pile... CERCLA comes to mind first, but I'd have to Goggle a bit to make sure.

Leon m
12-17-2008, 11:05 PM
That doesn't make sense. What about this quote in Redfords letter...



If you've known and been fighting this for 7 years, it's hardly being done behind anyones back. Also, if it's true it's not in the Park, then why the comment about the NPS not being told until after the fact?

This doesn't pass the sniff test. I detect much hyperbole and half-truths. Not surprised, it's the standard tactic of these groups.

Well sorry thier detective...got my wires crossed with the drilling in Montana...or was it Wyoming....theres been so many battles over oil since Bush and Chaney got to the White House one might think thats the only reason they took the job....?

Leon m
12-17-2008, 11:10 PM
Anyway it was not my intention to start a heated debate. I simply posted this hoping that those who CARED would take part in saving this land.

Those that don't can quietly turn their backs and walk away...I'm sure your used to it by now...shouldn't be hard for you.

gregleeber
12-17-2008, 11:19 PM
Drill Baby Freakin DRILL !

BrianW
12-17-2008, 11:37 PM
Well sorry thier detective...got my wires crossed with the drilling in Montana...or was it Wyoming....

I see you're from Wisconsin, not Wyoming, Montana, or Utah. Me, I'm from Alaska. I'll let the folks in Utah do whatever they think best. It's not like they aren't represented, or don't have legal counsel in Utah. They don't need the rest of the country getting in their business.

Lew Barrett
12-17-2008, 11:48 PM
Chris,

Sounds like you're not happy with out-of-state folks trying to dictate what happens in Utah. Well, that's how it is with these do-good groups. They love to control others.

Welcome to the brotherhood of the leave-my-state alone club. :) Alaska is a charter member.

Brian,
I'd agree with your feelings on this if this was Utah's land, but as presented, it isn't. It's Federal property that just happens to be located in Utah that they're auctioning off. As I read it, one man's point of view is as significant as another's in this matter regardless of what state he might come from.

C. Ross
12-17-2008, 11:53 PM
So, not a trolling question, just really curious.

If you drill and extract oil and gas, what effect does it have on the landscape? I've never lived in oil country, and I have no clue.

Can someone describe the before and after?

Answers with phrases like "Bush Cheney underlings (love the word underlings in the original letter; makes it sound like flying monkeys) raping the land" or "you can't even see the wellheads for all the dancing caribou and rainbows" will not be taken seriously. But I'm serious. Before and after, if you please....

LeeG
12-18-2008, 12:03 AM
I don't think it's that disruptive compared to building housing, farming, mining but I'm not going from a lot of knowledge, just appearances. The thing is that oil enables all those other things to occur, it's a force multiplier.

RonW
12-18-2008, 12:44 AM
LEEG says-believe it or not-I don't think it's that disruptive compared to building housing, farming, mining but I'm not going from a lot of knowledge, just appearances. The thing is that oil enables all those other things to occur, it's a force multiplier.


Not as dissruptive as housing and farming???? Dead on, make those people live in the city and go to the grocery stores, no more dissruption...

Oil is a force multiplier.......you got that one right....Let's take a look at a few society's that were smart enough not to get involoved in this non green sludge also known as oil.....
--American Indians, Australian aborigine's, and don't forget the amazon indians..
There are no force multiplier's in their society....Don't you wish you could be just like them and resist the urge to indulge in black sludge, OIL.....

BrianW
12-18-2008, 12:55 AM
So, not a trolling question, just really curious.

If you drill and extract oil and gas, what effect does it have on the landscape? I've never lived in oil country, and I have no clue.

Can someone describe the before and after?

From what I've seen, it's not good for the scenery, but done right it's not bad for the environment. Easy to do wrong though, and clean up ain't cheap. Plus, it's certain to be a long term deal.

BrianW
12-18-2008, 12:59 AM
Brian,
I'd agree with your feelings on this if this was Utah's land, but as presented, it isn't. It's Federal property that just happens to be located in Utah that they're auctioning off. As I read it, one man's point of view is as significant as another's in this matter regardless of what state he might come from.

I'm thinking that's part of the problem. If it's not already some sort of National Park, Wilderness, or Preserve, the Feds need to give the land back to the States. This may just be another example of that, and if the land belonged to Utah, the Feds couldn't action it off to the highest bidder.

RonW
12-18-2008, 01:06 AM
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that Utah was a little strange in that most of the land in utah is federal land, like 70% or some very high percentage.

----Utah is 66% federally owned......and wyoming is 47% federally owned.....

Lew Barrett
12-18-2008, 01:36 AM
Brian, my point was mainly that in respect to being a concern, if it's Federal, it passes from being a strictly local or regional concern. I believe you got that.

If that's so, anybody might reasonably chime in with an opinion. Of course, the value of those opinions can equally be debated. :D I realize from our last go-rounds before the election that many Alaskans hold.... let's say....strong opinions about the separation of State and Federal rights. But it's still Federally owned land and that makes it a broader question in my view.

BrianW
12-18-2008, 02:11 AM
I hear ya Lew.

I also hate to see a nice place messed up.

But... just the same, I value the opinions of the locals more than those of outside groups.

Captain Blight
12-18-2008, 10:28 AM
I see you're from Wisconsin, not Wyoming, Montana, or Utah. Me, I'm from Alaska. I'll let the folks in Utah do whatever they think best. It's not like they aren't represented, or don't have legal counsel in Utah. They don't need the rest of the country getting in their business.This has been the hinge point of the whole Sagebrush Rebellion, hasn't it? Where does 'eminent domain' stop and start?

If the lands are held for public use, what's the best use of the land and who decides?

It's not as simple as dismissing Rob't Redford out of hand because he's a LIBrul, or saying "Eeeek! No drilling on this patch of ground!" It really isn't.

Leon m
12-18-2008, 10:29 AM
So, not a trolling question, just really curious.

If you drill and extract oil and gas, what effect does it have on the landscape? I've never lived in oil country, and I have no clue.

Can someone describe the before and after?

Answers with phrases like "Bush Cheney underlings (love the word underlings in the original letter; makes it sound like flying monkeys) raping the land" or "you can't even see the wellheads for all the dancing caribou and rainbows" will not be taken seriously. But I'm serious. Before and after, if you please....

Before: Prestine widerness.

After: Pipe lines, excavation, Dirt roads, drilling waste, drilling rigs, lots of trucks...and on and on and on.

To put it simply no drilling = no harm.

Leon m
12-18-2008, 10:29 AM
Last day to do something ...For those that care. :)

Leon m
12-18-2008, 12:42 PM
December 18, 2008




Dear Mr. M---:

Thank you for contacting me. I value the correspondence I
get from people back home in Wisconsin, and I welcome this
opportunity to address your concerns regarding wilderness
protection in Utah.

First, let me say that I am committed to protecting our
nation's natural resources. The preservation of public lands is one
of the many issues where my constituency is broader than
Wisconsin. The entire nation benefits from our nation's natural
resources and would equally suffer if they are lost. Consequently,
it is in the best interest of every American to help preserve them.

As you may know, S. 1170, the America's Red Rock
Wilderness Act of 2007, was introduced by Senator Richard
Durbin (D-IL) on April 19, 2007. This legislation would designate
certain Federal lands in Utah as components of the National
Wilderness Preservation System. Over 9.2 million acres of red
rock canyons and desert lands in Utah would be protected,
including the Great Basin, Zion and Mojave Desert, Grand
Staircase-Escalante, Henry Mountains and Canyonlands Basin.

S. 1170 has been referred to the Committee on Energy and
Natural Resources, of which I am not a member. Please be assured
I will keep your views in mind should this legislation come before
the full Senate.






Again, thank you for contacting me. I appreciate knowing
your thoughts on this issue.




Sincerely,


Herb Kohl
U.S. Senator

Chris Ostlind
12-18-2008, 01:34 PM
Most of you guys do realize that this thing about the seven years is bait? It's all about dangling a Red Herring before the right crowd. Those chosen words in the Redford letter regarding the Cheney flying minions are designed to counter the "you tree huggers had seven years to get this thing resolved" argument. Truth is... it solves nothing and only serves to inflame. I don't know about you guys, but the state of inflammation is not a condition in which I get too much productively accomplished. I wish more level heads would prevail and something like a reasonable dialogue could be utilized for the best solution for all.

Something does bug me about this timing, though. That would be the fact that the seven-year time frame cuts both ways. What, exactly has been taking these guys so long that this very touchy issue is only now truly coming before a final vote? The fact that it is but days to go, for an Administration that has had little care for the environment, no matter how you cut the pie, makes for a really ugly scenario of rushing to get this package done before the time runs out on the Bush people and the interests of their contributors.

Truthfully, I see a whopping big lawsuit right around the corner that will stall the vote, or maybe even make it null and void, until well after Obama takes office in just what, 29 days or something.

From a practical perspective, I think back to the ugly way in which Clinton slammed-through the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument program purely by his presidential prerogative without much of any input from opposing concerns. I was just down in that area of the State a few months ago and low and behold if the local towns down there have not embraced the, what is now a National Park, changeover. Where there used to be near dead little towns and the surrounding land being used by leasehold ranchers for grazing, there are now thriving little communities with active retail and associated visitor serving facilities.
The once, up in arms, Republican voters of the area are now making a viable living in good standing.

So, not every change that looks on the surface to be a huge disruption will actually turn out that way after the dust settles. It's for that reason that I'm open minded to the potential of how these current areas might be explored for benefits, as long as the contracts written are ironclad in their methods for mitigating the potential for any environmental ugliness that might unfold. Something like a hugely potent pre-bonding system that guarantees the funding for a cleanup should it all go to hell. An agreement that is irrevocable, should the company choose to declare bankruptcy in order to just walk away from the ugliness. That would be a good start.

Truthfully, though, there are some incredible archaeological examples of early man in many of the areas where this drilling exploration is planned and I still have not seen one really good declaration of how the oil companies are going to handle that reality. A lot of shoe scuffling, vague posturing and simplistic notions are what have been the bywords of the process... but no real definitive plan. One example of the richness of the area is called Nine-Mile Canyon. I have hiked through there with my kids and wife and the rock art and ancient cliff dwellings are absolutely incredible.

Perhaps the single biggest problem with the drill till we're safe, thinking is that it's just not feasible to think that any deposit of petroleum in the US is going to hold us for any substantial length of time. We really do need to get ourselves re-directed to other sources of energy that are renewable and wean ourselves off the teat of petroleum for good. Drilling for more is not going to push us in that direction. It just keeps the mythology going that there's enough for eternity, if we only dig deep enough. Sounds very much like a drug-pushing dude, if you ask me.

Frankly, I'd like to leave a different legacy to my children than to tell them that we did nothing but look away when we had the chance to actually make some changes to a process that we knew full and well, wasn't working for the long run.

Yes, it is complicated. Yes, it will probably mean being a bit uncomfortable for a while. But we all know it needs to be done and if it's about my kids, or my kid's kids... I'd rather see it done sooner than later. You may disagree, but you do owe it to yourself to form your disagreement on facts, rather than fear of change, or pure emotion.

John of Phoenix
12-18-2008, 02:40 PM
Cris, having flown helicopters offshore and over the Louisiana oilfields for several years, I'll offer this -

A drawing of a typical onshore rig -
http://www.kgs.ku.edu/Publications/Oil/gifs/fig23.gif

This is a prety good primer.
http://www.kgs.ku.edu/Publications/Oil/primer12.html

http://www.airphotona.com/stockimg/images/00198.jpg
You can see the sludge pit in the froeground through the trees.

It's not so much the eyesore of the rig itself during drilling as what happens after the well is finished. Then there are some major problems - the sludge pit clean up is very toxic and getting the oil from the well to the main pipeline requires (duh) a pipeline and support systems.

http://www.satimagingcorp.com/galleryimages/carthagetexas_spot5_250cm_welllocations-med.jpg

It changes the landscape forever.

Leon m
12-18-2008, 03:05 PM
Truthfully, I see a whopping big lawsuit right around the corner that will stall the vote, or maybe even make it null and void, until well after Obama takes office in just what, 29 days or something.

.

Dear Leon,

Thank you for joining me in speaking out against the Bush Administration's midnight raid on Utah's Redrock wilderness.

Yesterday I appeared at a Congressional press conference to announce that NRDC is filing suit to block the giveaway of 110,000 acres of Utah's Redrock wilderness to oil and gas companies.

You can watch coverage of our lawsuit on the CBS Evening News last night.

This disastrous auction is scheduled to take place tomorrow -- on December 19th -- as a parting gift from the Bush-Cheney Administration to their friends in the oil and gas industries.

We must win back the unspoiled Redrock wilderness for the American people.

At stake are world-renowned vistas near Canyonlands and Arches National Parks, as well as near the Dinosaur National Monument. Even parts of Desolation Canyon, which have been proposed for national park status, will be on the auction block.

The highest bidders will earn the right to turn vast tracts of pristine wilderness into industrial wastelands.

NRDC's lawsuit is our last, best chance to stop this blatant land grab, which is why I wanted to share the news with you about this landmark court case.

I don't have to tell you how terrific NRDC's track record has been over the past eight difficult years. Thanks to your support, we've repeatedly staved off the Bush Administration's relentless drive to drill in some of our nation's last wild places.

But it's all on the line right now. We simply can't stand by and let them plunder our natural heritage during Bush's final hours in office.

They are racing to complete these land deals before Inauguration Day -- which would make the Redrock sales difficult to reverse.

That's why NRDC is responding swiftly and decisively in court. Once it's drilled and destroyed, our Redrock wilderness can never be restored.

We will be sure to keep you updated as this landmark case progresses.

Sincerely,

Robert Redford
Trustee
Natural Resources Defense Council

P.S. NRDC will be fighting this case in federal court all through the s. I know that protecting our natural heritage is important to you, so any financial support you can give to help us wage and win this fight over the next 30 critical days would be most appreciated. Thank you.

Leon m
12-18-2008, 03:08 PM
Perhaps the single biggest problem with the drill till we're safe, thinking is that it's just not feasible to think that any deposit of petroleum in the US is going to hold us for any substantial length of time. We really do need to get ourselves re-directed to other sources of energy that are renewable and wean ourselves off the teat of petroleum for good. Drilling for more is not going to push us in that direction. It just keeps the mythology going that there's enough for eternity, if we only dig deep enough. Sounds very much like a drug-pushing dude, if you ask me.

Frankly, I'd like to leave a different legacy to my children than to tell them that we did nothing but look away when we had the chance to actually make some changes to a process that we knew full and well, wasn't working for the long run.

Yes, it is complicated. Yes, it will probably mean being a bit uncomfortable for a while. But we all know it needs to be done and if it's about my kids, or my kid's kids... I'd rather see it done sooner than later. You may disagree, but you do owe it to yourself to form your disagreement on facts, rather than fear of change, or pure emotion.

Nicely stated...Thank You !

BrianW
12-18-2008, 03:27 PM
That's a good link John.

A couple of points though...

That's not sludge, it's drilling mud. Mud will have bad stuff in it, but mostly it's mud. Here's good mud link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drilling_mud

All mud storage up here in is tanks, usually upright tanks. Like these, next to the rig (and some spares in the lower left corner)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BrianW/North%20Slope%202008/chandler1fromair.jpg

The pallets spread around are actually the bags of material used to make mud, when mixed with water. They were spread out to hold down insulated rig mats from blowing away in a storm. The large building to the right is the camp.

The picture of the old field must be of an old job. Now days, they would directional drill all those wells from one pad.

BrianW
12-18-2008, 03:30 PM
Oh, when that rig moves off the hole, you'll see absolutely no sign it was ever there.

BrianW
12-18-2008, 03:35 PM
I agree that Chris made a good reasonable post. I wish Robert Redford could write a letter not full of hyperbole and innuendo. :)

They filed a lawsuit, would a thunk it. They didn't need a million signatures to do that. Oh, rereading Roberts P.S. message explains things.

Leon m
12-18-2008, 05:28 PM
They filed a lawsuit, would a thunk it. They didn't need a million signatures to do that. Oh, rereading Roberts P.S. message explains things.

The signatures were to let them know they are up against some serious opposition. The money thing...Hey, even the great NRA asks for some money...who doesn't ?

StevenBauer
12-28-2008, 11:04 PM
I'm surprised no one here mentioned the whole Tim DeChristopher thing. I think it's cool, the guy has some balls. He was tired of waiting for someone else to do something so he just decided to do something himself.




Tim DeChristopher Throws Utah Oil And Gas Drilling Leases Auction Into Chaos (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/21/tim-dechristopher-throws-_n_152661.html)




SALT LAKE CITY — An environmental activist tainted an auction of oil and gas (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/21/tim-dechristopher-throws-_n_152661.html#) drilling leases Friday by bidding up parcels of land by hundreds of thousands of dollars without any intention of paying for them, a federal official said.
The process was thrown into chaos and the bidding halted for a time before the auction was closed, with 116 parcels totaling 148,598 acres having sold for $7.2 million plus fees.
"He's tainted the entire auction," said Kent Hoffman, deputy state director for the U.S. Bureau of Land Management in Utah.
Hoffman said buyers will have 10 days to reconsider and withdraw their bids if they think they paid too much.
Tim DeChristopher, a 27-year-old University of Utah economics student, said his plan was to disrupt the auction and he feels he accomplished his goal.
DeChristopher won the bidding on 13 parcels, auction records show, and drove up the price of several other pieces of land.
"I thought I could be effective by making bids, driving up prices for others and winning some bids myself," the Salt Lake City man said.
Some bidders said they were forced to bid thousands of dollars more for their parcels, while others fumed that they lost their bids.

More here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/21/tim-dechristopher-throws-_n_152661.html

Go Tim:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/media/ALeqM5juiDDqyLuIz8Mm0_S1R1gRj1A6rQ?size=m

Captain Blight
12-28-2008, 11:13 PM
That's awesome!

Even if he can't pay and has to declare bankruptcy, what assets does he have to be siezed? His 1968 VW Bus? He's a grad student for cryin' in the night?


This is brilliant. I only wish I'd thought of it first.

Chip-skiff
12-29-2008, 12:31 AM
So, not a trolling question, just really curious.

If you drill and extract oil and gas, what effect does it have on the landscape? I've never lived in oil country, and I have no clue.

Can someone describe the before and after?

Here's an airphoto of the Jonah Gas Field south of Pinedale Wyoming. Until 1999 I lived just northeast of here, in Boulder, WY. This used to be pretty unmarked (the before) with pronghorn antelope, mule deer, and small bands of desert elk migrating with the seasons.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2232/2778760860_52d3ba957d.jpg?v=0

The present: more roads, more rigs, more dust, bad air, ozone alerts, wildlife harassment and poaching, and lots of money.

The after: take away the drilling rigs. Add pipe & collection facilities. Take away 90% of the jobs. Leave the mess.

One of the areas up for leasing is around Nine-Mile Creek, a tributary of the Green River and Desolation Canyon. Here are two photos from river trips. Good place to stick a couple thousand drillsites.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3208/3146737286_cf33a4845c.jpg?v=0


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3132/3146737288_565d2e52eb.jpg?v=0

C. Ross
12-29-2008, 12:38 AM
Fellas who posted before/after pics of drilling sites, and John/Brian's detailed descriptions - thanks. There's going to be a fair amount of new drilling in North Dakota in the next few decades, but it's pretty undistinguished grazing and winter wheat lands. Would be a shame to have a truly good place scarred.

Leon m
12-29-2008, 05:55 PM
I'm surprised no one here mentioned the whole Tim DeChristopher thing. I think it's cool, the guy has some balls. [/IMG]

Thats frickin great...I love it !

Leon m
12-29-2008, 05:57 PM
Dear Leon,

Democracy is working: We have just won an eleventh-hour reprieve for Utah's Redrock Wilderness!

Over the past two weeks, you helped us spark a national outcry against the Bush Administration's plan to auction off pristine wildlands near Arches and Canyonlands National Parks to oil and gas speculators. And I want to thank you specially for joining our cause and taking action with us for the first time.

Last Wednesday, the Natural Resources Defense Council filed suit to block this outrageous giveaway of our public lands.

The very next day, Bush officials agreed to a last-minute deal that could save these 100,000 magnificent acres from destruction -- pending a federal court's decision.

Under the deal, the Bureau of Land Management went ahead with its auction of the wildlands on Friday. However, they will NOT issue the leases to the winning bidders until a federal court considers our case in January.

The bottom line: no oil or gas company will get their hands on our public lands unless and until a federal judge says they can.

We are going to get our day in court with the Bush Administration, and you can be sure that NRDC will go all out to prevail on that court to save these wilderness treasures for the American people.

It's our land, it's our legacy, and we intend to keep it for our children and grandchildren.

I will be sure to keep you updated as this courtroom drama unfolds next month. In the meantime, I want to thank you again for making your voice heard and supporting NRDC in this campaign to save America's Redrock canyonlands.

This distressing attack on our natural heritage during the holiday season is a welcome reminder that we must never take that birthright for granted. No one can quantify the beauty of wildness, or put a price on silence and solitude. We are indebted to those previous generations who, in their wisdom, fought to preserve this precious legacy. Now it is our turn to fight.

I want to wish you and yours a very happy holiday season.

Sincerely,

Robert Redford
Trustee
Natural Resources Defense Council

P.S. NRDC will be working through the holidays to prepare for this courtroom showdown that is less than 30 days away.

John of Phoenix
12-29-2008, 06:05 PM
Thanks for the update Leon. And for the leg work.

Well done.

Leon m
12-30-2008, 11:12 AM
Thanks for the update Leon. And for the leg work.

Well done.

Your welcome, and thank you John.

"It's our land, it's our legacy, and we intend to keep it for our children and grandchildren."