Efficient express cruiser/sportfisher

[Spokaloo]

I think we need to sneak away from the Nexus thread so that this can be investigated more thoroughly. Enough people are on the same program that I think I will open it back up here for more opinions.

The boat that started it all:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/fighterama2/DSC_0143_B.jpg

Stats:

LOA: 25 ft (7.6 m)
Max Beam: 7’-3” (2.2 m)
Displacement, Max: 4,000# (1,814 kg)
Displacement, Lightship: 2,019# (918 kg)
Engine: Yamaha F60
Fuel Capacity: 34 gal
Max Speed, 1/2 load: 22 knots
Cruising Speed: 13-17 knots
Range at Cruising Speed: 170 nm
Potable Water: 30 gal
Ballast Tank Capacity: 76 gal (652# s.w.)


I sent an email to Brion Rieff about the Rieff Runner 24, but never heard a word back. Thats a bummer, because its a gorgeous boat, but I don't think he will sell a set of plans.

This is the most recent evolution of the idea:

[uote]While I absolutely love Cloud Cap for everything she is, there's quite a bit she's not for my needs.

As a salmon boat, its pretty decent. The big hitch is no place to get out of the weather. If you want to use her in the Sound, she'd be great with the cabin built on, hardtop style, with a windshield. In hindsight I think that's the way I should have gone, but I had some tropical paradise in mind when I built it open. Granted, there isn't a boat like her on a hot, sunny summer day in Spokane, she's fantastic. Wet and dreary is another matter.

This whole thing started out with the fact that SWMBO won't go out with me when its cold outside. That made me think I needed to build an express cruiser with a windshield. If i'm going to rebuild, its going to be a long-term boat, something that can do most everything I want it to do, because I don't want to build a series of $20K+ boats one after another.

This led me to sleeping accommodations for 2, a head, and an extremely lightweight boat with an efficient hullform. Basically I wanted a 25 foot version of what I have. It needs to be canvas covered so we can heat the space.

Once that was set, I saw that it could be used for salmon at B10 and hallies out of Neah Bay if a few other little details were ironed out (bracketed outboard, fishwells, possibly water ballast).
[/quote]

Jacques Mertens has the DE23/25 designs, which are close to the criteria, but will need to have the cabins lopped off and made into more of an express cruiser boat. I like the DE25 long cabin for this:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/fighterama2/DE25_Cabin_plpr.jpg

Set up something like this doodle:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/fighterama2/DE25X.jpg


I just got an email yesterday from Yves-Marie Tanton regarding his design #230:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/fighterama2/FM25-R03.jpg

This has promise, with water ballast and a lifting pad on the bottom. Its designed for sheet construction in aluminum, but I think she would be an easy refit for plywood cored composite. Im enthused about the idea of the 18 degree deadrise on the sides with the flat lifting pad in the center. Should give strong lift with a smooth ride in rough water. It will require a cabin, however.

Finally I just received an email this morning from Timm Smith of Smith marine design that he might be interested in designing something for me along the lines of Shearwater up top, and would be interested in doing it for a lowered fee if he could sell a few plans.

IF ANYONE IS INTERESTED, PLEASE GET INVOLVED! The more plans sold, the lower the cost for each set. Im flexible if some design criteria change in the pursuit of the ideal uber-efficient fishing boat.

E

[SalmonMan]

OK. So what about just scaling the Nina plans 10%? That will give you a 24' X 7.6' double wedge hull. With the hull volume increase you should be able to handle a lightweight cabin.

[Spokaloo]

I am wondering if having a section of monohedron aft (say the last 6') with the double wedge from there forward would give a little more speed and higher efficiencies from 12kts+. A double wedge tends to lose a little efficiency once it is pushed past S/L ratios of 2.

If I were to head that route, Id like to see a complete redesign, as the LB22 has relatively low freeboard aft. Its nice because she doesn't get blown around much, but its very low for leaning over the side trying to net a 30+lb fish. Id also like to be able to fish right at the transom. Salmon have a knack for running around under the boat, and being that its mostly trolling, they will be coming up aft the majority of the time.

E

[SalmonMan]

You will have a long wait if you want a redesign. I agree with the low freeboard. That can be solved by a raised sheer using an overlapped plywood panel. That would give you an efficient hull design with an overall lightweight hull.

[TerryLL]

Eric,
I hate to ask this question on this forum, I'm sure I'll PO somebody, but have you considered going aluminum? Quite a wide range of boats in AL that meet your criteria, available as CNC cut kits. Just another type of stitch and glue, really. I built them for a couple years. Hated it.
Terry

[rbgarr]

This Subaru powered Tanton design #977 is similar to Shearwater but with weather protection. I can see my wife and I being very happy aboard for all-weather cruises. She likes to ride on the bow in good weather so I'd put in a bow cockpit, too.
http://i44.tinypic.com/ngq5a1.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/2val8yd.jpg
http://www.tantonyachts.com/images9.htm#image977

[Captain Blight]

How about a blast from the past? (http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=CabinCruisers/SeaHawk)

[frank pedersen]

I see Brion Rieff every day. Tell me what you want and I will make an effort to see that it happens. I thought he was advertising sets of plans for his Rieff Runner in WoodenBoat.

[Spokaloo]

Terry, I haven't welded aluminum in about a decade, and I sucked at it then. I am considering klegecell/divinycell as well, depending on what the designers can and can't accomplish. I like cored composite because regardless of the core, it is always warm and comfortable. Wood even moreso than the other cores. Speaking of, when are we going to have a messabout here in the Spo/CdA area?

RBG: Shes got great lines, but something a little more open I think is in the cards. That and shes a little slow for the 20 mile run from Warrenton to the fishing grounds. Kinda need semiplaning to low planing speeds for that area. Its not like a thunderstorm in the south, the tide turns and it steepens the onshore swell to the point where getting to shore can be VERY urgent, and it doesn't take but a little wind to make it really nasty. Id guess her at a 12kt boat?

CB: Maybe a later development, but shes kinda ugly, doncha think?

Frank: I thought so too, but after emailing him twice I havent heard a peep out of him. If you see him tomorrow, have him check his email spam box, sometimes long emails get kicked to spam by proxy. If nothing, he can email me at eastaggs at gmail dottt com.

E

[rbgarr]

... shes a little slow for the 20 mile run from Warrenton to the fishing grounds. Kinda need semiplaning to low planing speeds for that area. Its not like a thunderstorm in the south, the tide turns and it steepens the onshore swell to the point where getting to shore can be VERY urgent, and it doesn't take but a little wind to make it really nasty.
E

Just curious: how fast do you go when it gets really nasty?

[Captain Blight]

Yeah, it's not the prettiest thing to ever hit the water. So what we'd like, you and me, are fairly similar things: so why not try this on for size? (http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/articles/design/whio/whio.html)

[Gerard]

How about this? I'd think that soft top could be reconfigured into a hard one? Seems like she would meet the speed and comfort requirements. http://www.devlinboat.com/surfrunner25.htm (http://www.devlinboat.com/surfrunner25.htm)

[JimD]

How about this? I'd think that soft top could be reconfigured into a hard one? Seems like she would meet the speed and comfort requirements. http://www.devlinboat.com/surfrunner25.htm (http://www.devlinboat.com/surfrunner25.htm)

Pretty, but 105 hp is a lot of ponies

http://www.devlinboat.com/images/surfrunner255.jpg

[Gerard]

I guess it's probably way more than Spokaloo laid out in his criteria up top. So might not be the best choice but she sure is pretty!

[Spokaloo]

RBG, thats a very valid point. The comparison I have is the 21' snot boat my buddy and I go out in normally. When it gets rough, we are stuck plowing along at 8-9mph because shes a planing hull. Great big stern, 19' of wetted hull, she gets knocked all over the place. My thought is 12-15mph in a long lean craft with less transom surface area will be a safer, faster, more pleasant ride in the exact same conditions. Full throttle? Not by a stretch. Semi-planing efficienty, absolutely.

CB, Whio is GORGEOUS. I love that boat. At 28 feet shes a little ungainly on a trailer, and as stated above, needs to be a tolerably easy launch and retrieve in the dark. I do like the concept, and wouldn't mind revisiting it for hullshape. Ill have a look at that issue when I get home from shift tomorrow.

Gerard/JD, I sent an email to Sam, but he is out of the country. He thinks she could be developed a bit for the program im shooting for, but would need to lose a few lbs and switch to a bracketed outboard. Its definitely worth looking at, but what do you think she would need to really find the pinnacle of efficiency?

E

[Spokaloo]

Brion was quick to get back with me Frank, so I owe ya one.

That puts this back on the table:

http://www.brionrieffboatbuilder.com/graphics/reiffrunner1_72.jpg

http://www.brionrieffboatbuilder.com/graphics/rieffrunner6.jpg

http://www.brionrieffboatbuilder.com/graphics/rieffrunner2.jpg

Glued lap, so I have some maintenance concerns dealing with that (this will be a blood covered fishing boat part of the year, and usage will be 100+ hrs a year, moored against a dock), esp keeping the edges of the ply intact, protected, and rot/damage free. Im sure some of you have great ideas and techniques as to how to accomplish that.

E

[wharf rat]

Eric: Bateau's Panga 25 Cabin would probably work but again it's a big hp boat.

However while poking around the site I stumbled on Fast Launch 26--wow, what a beauty. Has the cabin, is self bailing; economical--build it with a diesel, leave out the rear u-seat and table, add some rails if you're concerned by the freeboard--you need something to hold the rocket launchers, anyways. Troll with some style.

Purty boat.

[Spokaloo]

Jacques pimped me right at the release to build her. I don't have a ton of faith in a boat that carries her forefoot that deep to go out in 6+ foot swells. Shes GORGEOUS and would be an incredible river/lake boat and very, very good in bays and places like the intracoastal. San Juans, definitely.

Buoy 10? ehhhh.

I think she would like to swap ends, root, broach, and be otherwise very moody in big swells.

You know what I have been checking out as of late is ol' Renn Tolman's skiffs.

This one in particular caught my interest:

http://www.fishyfish.com/aaron_enstad/img/aaron_enstad_launch_zoom.jpg

Now Im playing around with lines on that today.

Also, Timm Smith got back to me and might be interested in developing a scratch plan that will become a stock plan for his firm. Should be interesting to see how that develops.

E

[Captain Blight]

Mr Mertens really ought to redesign the FL 26 for real-world rough conditions. The design is already halfway there, but give the hull a decent bottom for cryin' in the night!! I would buy the plans for one in a heartbeat--and build it too-- if it could handle something rougher than cats-paws.

So why not a Bolger Blackbird, again?

[Spokaloo]

I think the FL would actually do great going places like the Keys, Fla coastlines, ICW, etc etc. Its just not a pacific or bar boat.

Blackbird, while beautiful, has the same issue ninigret and nina have. Fishing off the transom, trolling for salmon (who are notoriously boat-shy) would be a real challenge with almost 5 feet of length you can't net around or fight around. Standing on the decks isn't an option, so I err on the side of something with a motorwell snug up and a transom hung or bracket hung outboard.

E

[JimD]

Arch Davis's Jack Tar 26:

http://www.archdavisdesigns.com/jacktar4.gif

http://www.archdavisdesigns.com/jacktar5.jpg

Not much info on his website, though.

[Eric D]

I think the FL would actually do great going places like the Keys, Fla coastlines, ICW, etc etc. Its just not a pacific or bar boat.



Eric, Please explain your reservations a bit more in depth please. I am often drawn to this exact plan and I too have some questions/needs to do almost what you are planning and I would like to understand your logic on this more fully. I plan to run the Great Lakes so sea worthy conditions are a must.

Thanks,

Eric D

[Spokaloo]

Okay in a certain type of seaway the FL would be golden, and in another, Id be concerned about her performance.

You are in GB, so if I remember this right you guys get a consistent type of waves out there. Steep, short period without much current. A swell of sorts, but not an ocean type swell.

I think the FL would be a pretty great boat out there. Shes lean in the bow, and not terribly broad in the stern so shes going to cut into a head sea pretty well. Skeg depth if built to plans is substantial, so quartering seas is going to be gravy. Because your swells are steep and short, I think it wouldn't be too bad really for moderately rough days. This isn't a blue water boat for all weather, so when its looking like a boat sinker, stay in port.

Where my concern lies isnt the day to day use, but one of the places we go to fish. The Columbia is a big river and it enters the ocean in a very shallow, sand bar strewn area. Constant current runs 1-3mph depending on season. Tidal exchange influences the river 100+miles upstream, so she has quite a bit of outflow on big tides. Couple that with a prevailing Pacific swell and it can get mean.

I have concerns that she wouldn't tolerate the chop-on-swell program. Its not uncommon to have an inbound 30mph swell thats 4-6 feet tall. When the wind blows, it adds considerable chop as usual. What makes it scary is that during outflow, its one gigantic tide rip over shallow sand. The swells break, the chop breaks, everything is steep and breaking and often not in the same direction. In these conditions, I think her deep forefoot would cause her to root in and corkscrew even with that big skeg. Outside of this, I think shes a great boat.

I wouldn't hesitate to head out in the Lakes on it because you have a directionally stable chop and not as much tidal action to agitate any current available. Seems to me that it would make a great boat.

E

[wharf rat]

Just an observation, but it seems like each boat brought up here is less efficient than the previous. Tolman skiffs are wonderful boats, but efficient they ain't. Even Tolman admits that.

I think at some point, maybe we should define "efficient". Two months ago with gas at 4.50--15, 20 miles per gallon would have probably been considered efficient. Now at a buck 75, is 5 or 6 miles per gallon acceptably efficient? Or is 30 knots with 50 horses or 30 knots with 110? Too, heavier boats take more muscle to tow as well--even the same truck--more gas.

I think that without a clear definition of efficient you'll have a hard time pinning a design down. Boat du jour takes over clear thinking.

I still like your original thought--a proven seaworthy design: flat bottomed, dory shape (especially Pacific dory shape), light, minimum accommodations, low profile so as not to fight the wind as well low enough to examine/release the catch without heaving it aboard, and modest power requirements. Nexus 21: 14 sheets of MDO plywood, some sticks of Doug fir, and a Honda 50.

Plus an understanding wife; a couple of good buddies willing to lend a hand; a really gullible good buddy (good wife will work as this too) who'll drive all night so you'll be rested when you head out; an old man who has an uncanny "sense" or knack for finding salmon in any conditions. I'd like to nominate myself as the old man, but my skills at finding salmon regularly fall into what many call the uncanny "pathetic" category.

I'd take another look at the Nexus.

[Spokaloo]

Rat, I spent some quality time looking at the actual mpg of many of the designs above. Turns out that any and all boats with a V shaped hullform fell between 4 and 6 mpg when speed over time was taken into consideration. The Shearwater put up numbers in the 6mpg range for her pilot on a 300+ mile trip, which were great numbers. That is very close to what I get in my LB22 right now, yet with much less in the way of accommodations.

Each design seems to have had this strong point or that. Each seems to fall in the same fuel economy category as compared to fuel. DE23/25 with 90 or 115hp, Shearwater with 60, Rieff Runner with 90, all pretty equal once speed was accounted for. One thing they did all have in common was roughly their total displacements. They all dropped in between 2000 and 2800 lbs fully dressed for play. Higher hp boats were getting more speed for their hp, and at cruising speeds they were covering the distance faster at similar fuel burn rates. WOT is obviously another matter, but I have a feeling Shearwater runs at WOT or above 2/3 throttle more often than the others, and probably pounds like a fiend.

When I started to sniff out the Tolman thing, I went directly to the owners to see how they were doing with economy. Consistently they are pulling down 4-5mpg, with the occasional 6 if the water was right. On another part, they are impeccably mannered in bad seas, a feature that some of the others couldn't offer because of plumb sides and chines above the waterline. Sacrificing .5 - 1mpg of fuel economy to not pound in a head sea at 12kts (a SWMBO requirement) and have tremendous reserve buoyancy seems to make sense.

I wanted desperately to find a hullform that showed exceptional characteristics, something above and beyond as far as economy. What I found is what many designers seem to talk about. Without becoming dangerously lightweight, efficiency is tied to displacement regardless of hullform. Other than going to extremes (6' beam on 24' of hull), there wasn't a free lunch to be had.

I can't get her to get enthused about a Nexus Dory hull because she doesn't like the pounding our little aluminum beater boat gives, and almost refuses to ride in it unless its smooth out. She loves to cruise in the other boat because its buttery smooth at 18mph regardless of the surface of the water. While Im all ears for other options, opinions, and ideas, I couldn't find perfection.

Seems to me that if kept light and without a cabin, the Tolman boat seems to do everything right and still have fuel economy on par with many of the others here.

E