Looking for help traditional cedar lapstrake repair

[Mr Novice]

Hi

I am hoping to restore a 1952 red cedar clinker lapstrake over steamed oak, 17 ft pulling boat of the Weery design. The boat was always painted, and I am heat stripping it and removing caulk to expose what needs to be repaired. At this point it looks like the front portion of two strakes will have to be replaced at the starboard bow below waterline, and possibly the whole plank.
Otherwise she appears to be fairly sound and has only one broken rib.
I am reefing the seams but am having trouble at the keelson where a replacement silicone sealant is flared under the keel and first strake. The heat gun cannot loosen the side seal to the plank without burning, and I don't want to cut into the wood. My question is will a chemical paint remover help to loosen the adhesion? Will chemical paint removers harm cedar? I wish they had used some cotton under the caulk.

[Thorne]

Welcome to the Forum! I don't know what will help remove the silicone (or whatever) sealant, but someone here certainly will.

Posting images will be a big help.

Here's how to post photos on this forum:

First - don't attach photos. Most web forums don't allow it, and space
limitations are the main reason why.

Second - Instead of attaching them to a thread, post the pics on the web
somewhere. You have a free website area with any paid ISP's email account,
or use www.picturetrail.com or other free hosting service. Once posted on
the web, right-click the image to copy the URL (web address). Always test
first by pasting the image URL into the window of a web browser and see if
the image displays.

Remember, the IMAGE URL will end in .jpg, not .htm or html. URLs ending in .htm are the page that the image is at, not the image location itself. If the image URL ends in other code, try deleting everything after the "xxxxxx.jpg" part of the URL to get it to display on web forums.

Third - once posted on the web, try this procedure while logged in to this
Forum:

1. Click the "User CP" link in the browser window in the top left of the
menu bar.
2. Click the "Edit Options" link about 1/4 of the way down the left column.
3. In the "Misc Options" at the bottom of the next page, select "Enhanced
Interface" from the pulldown list.
4. Once this interface has been selected, in any "Reply" window you can
click the "insert photo" icon --> a little yellow square icon with the stamp
in the upper right corner, the mountains in the lower center.
5. Once the little dialog box titled "Please enter the URL of your image"
comes up, paste the URL of the photo in the field.

If unsure of the procedure, test first by pasting the image URL into the
window of a web browser.

[Vinny&Shawn]

Usually on lapstrake boats the lap or seam is not caulked,if they are,then yes you need to get the stuff out. But you seem to be talking about the gar board and keelson rabbet.That area would be traditionally caulked and the seam payed with a proper compound. If you are having trouble getting the seam compound out,it sounds as though someone has used something,inappropriate!! Chemical stripper and the orange stripper are made to work on wood and will not hurt it,but I don't know what will take out the substance you are trying to remove. You need to identify what this stuff is and then find a plan to remove it. Is it hard,could be Bondo or epoxy related. Old seam compound also can get rock hard as does Dap window caulk. These two will usually separate freely from the seam.
Silicon should peal away,need to know and pictures are helpful? Vinny

[Thorne]

If you are **sure** the material is silicone sealant -

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/33181.html

"The recommend using mineral spirits and rubbing alcoholwhich are less abrasive than the stuff used by the guys above, butwill probably take longer to dissolve. GE's step-by-steps rely on alittle bit of elbow grease to speed up the process."

Why are you trying to remove it -- in other words, can you either leave it, or remove the wood and then get to the sealant directly?

[Mr Novice]

Hi Thorne. Thanks for your help. I finally have pictures up, had to build a shelter with all the weather out here. Here is the link. I am using a heat gun. Paint strippers require too many applications and I can't heat the shelter. Here is the link to my lapstrake album, so far. Robert

[Mr Novice]

Sorry about that. Forgot the link. http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/21261728

[Mr Novice]

Hi Vinny. Sorry for taking so long to get back. Had to erect a boat shelter and get it in out of the weather. I have started scraping the hull and have posted pictures so far, at : http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/21261728

Robert

[Mr Novice]

Correction on the cedar. Looks more like East Coast White. Could be Northern White, I do have a local source of replacement wood.

[Jay Greer]

Welcome to the Forum. While chemical removers will not harm the wood, just judging from what I see, I would be a bit reluctant to do a full replacement of any suspect planking unless there is definate splitting along the rivet lines.
Often the cure is more invasive than a simple patch job and will allow the user to enjoy the boat without the burden of excessive repair work. I would first approach the job with the consideration that the missing wood on the fwrd. plank near the stem could be spliced in with a dutchman of new wood, using epoxy as a void filling adhesive. Once faired in place, a modern seam material such as Sikaflex could be laid over the area or worked into the seam prior to painting. The stem scarf, might be enhanced with an external cedar stop water followed by the application of selant, forced into the seam, and paint. The same holds true for the after planking where, rather than disturb the structure, dutchmen and sealants could be used to stave off a rather involved repair job.
If, after a season of use, the boat does not hold up as to being water tight, I would then proceed with more drastic repair proceedures.
Jay

[Mr Novice]

Thanks Jay. I have been speaking to a friend, who has sailed around the world. He gave the same advice. Least intrusive repair and give it a year before any major changes. My immediate plans are to strip the rest of the old paint, and sand by hand. It's been extremley slow. I will post pictures with progress.

[ishmael]

Hm. What is wrong with the planks? If the forward portions are rotted, they may need replacing. Tedious work. And I agree, if there's just a bit of splitting try to live with it. The problem is if you do all the refinish and then they don't take up. Fitting whole or partial planks in a lapstrake skiff like this is doable, but it will test you. If it comes to that ask again and people here will talk you through it.

[pcford]

I would first approach the job with the consideration that the missing wood on the fwrd. plank near the stem could be spliced in with a dutchman of new wood, using epoxy as a void filling adhesive. Once faired in place, a modern seam material such as Sikaflex could be laid over the area or worked into the seam prior to painting.

You should contemplate carefully what you are doing. I really can't understand what is going on in your boat. Is the boat merely dried out.

I own a 21 ft. Oselver boat. These are lapstrake boats having three strakes to a side. Three strakes to a side on a boat that large will, of course, undergo a lot of expansion and contraction. The middle plank on the boat must have been cut from a hunk of wood approximately 21 inches wide. The unless the moisture content of the wood is maintained very carely...a 21 inch wide plank will crack. And mine did. I asked an old Norweigan shipwright what they did in the old country. He replied that in the spring they let them sink for two weeks and them pump them out. And then they are tight.

In any case, I would be very circumspect about cramming a bolus of polyurethane in the area of concern. That stuff is a totally pain in the butt to remove. You might try traditional seam compound or bedding compounds. Slick Seam, a wax seam compound which squeezes out as the boat tightens up might be appropriate. As a last resort before replacing the plank, you might apply a tingle. This is lead sheeting over bedding compound fastened with tacks.

Try the traditional noninvasive approach before using a modern goop.

[Mr Novice]

I have done a fair amount of sanding down the hull and identifying areas of rot, and bad wood. I will be replacing the transom, stern post as well as setting the transom forward 2 to 3 inches to cut off split strake ends.
Planks are not too bad and only a few cut outs and replacement of partial pieces of strakes needed.
Many of the clinch nails were short copper pins, similar in shape to old iron hand forged nails. These I will replace with longer ringed copper nails and clinch.
There the keelson strip needs to be replaced, so I will go ahead and cut out the slot for a dagger board, as I am down to the keel now. Will post more pictures in a day or so. Mr. Novice
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/21261728

[georgel]

buy proper clench nails. Ring nails will probably break if you try to clench them. also a pia to remove.

[bob easton]

Another vote for clench nails! It's always good to be able to reverse an assembly, as you are finding out. You'll have a lot less damage reversing clinched nails than ring nails.

[James McMullen]

Why not just fiberglass over it? Ha, ha, just kidding! I second Pat Ford's endorsement of Slickseam and soak it up. It is the initial repair that is least likely to cause even more problems down the road if you need to do it over.

[Mr Novice]

Hi James, Bob, I have never seen a pia, but any proper tool to get some of the old nails out would sure help. I'll look it up in google.
Thanks
Mr.Novice

[Mr Novice]

Hi James. I am not trying to restore to original, just get back to seaworthy, paint over and have some fun. I will be using some glass, in a few centre strakes where repair is made. In fact there is some glass on the hull already, and even after sanding it is still in tact and sound.

[Mr Novice]

Transom boards are cut out and dado joints made, batten boards were made by cutting a 1/4 inch of of each side of the stern planks. All went well first time with no loss of pieces. New Picks at picturetail.com linlk.

Question, 5200 or 4200 Inboard transom will be reinforced by an inboard 1/2 inch marine plywood. Which way to go with adhesives?
Mr. Novice

[Tom Robb]

I noticed some mention of red oak in the captions for the pictures. Red oak - nice strong stuff - rots easily. Bummer.
If you use 5200 anywhere either you or the next owner will curse the day you were born.
What's the "inboard 1/2 " marine plywood" supposed to do?
Dado joints on the transom?
PIA is "Pain In (the) Ass" as in no fun.
Personally, I'd follow Jay Greer's advice to the letter and the spirit. He's been there, done that, knows where-of he speaks.
Fibreglass and clinker constructed boats - not a good match.

[Mr Novice]

Aft end of cedar strakes were reset to the old transom several times. When I took the old stern out it was edge rotted and the last refit had placed 3 inch long stainless through 5/8 inch strakes to get to the non-rotted wood in the transom. Result is end of strakes are split. I plan to set the transom forward 2 or 3 inches and re-fasten the strakes further up, avoiding these splits. The original wood was red oak as is the keel, so I am replacing wood that should water expand during soak up at the same rate. To thicken the edge of the oak transom, on the inboard I was going to 5200 or 4200 hundred, hence the question of what type, and join the the two transoms / form a thicker OD edge of transom for the strakes to be fastened to. I also plan a sister frame inboard and against the transom about 2 inches wide and 1 inch thick. This should build up the transom hold-down edge to about 2.5 inches instead of the original 1 inch board. Now to the fiber glass; I do not intend to cover the hull, but there is some area in the port mid-strake section 3 strake position that has a split and edge of the lap is broken. Here I hope to fit in a piece of cedar on edge and shape to fit the strake bed. For the reset of the strakes I was thinking 4200 and copper clinch nails. So I am down to the wood and no adhesives used yet. The stakes have to be lifted and raked, Air blown for particles and reset, reclinched. So would you use a good below water edge calk between laps before re-clinching? What would you glue the new transom together with? Just new bare wood at the moment, but ready to glue up.
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/21261701

[Mr Novice]

All good advice Tom. No I should have said used a dado blade, on the table saw to cut out for the 1/4 " thick battens. Battens between the trasom planks. This being a 56 year old boat, I am hoping the thicker, new transom, will give more area to refasten the strakes. Due to the high winds that come up here, I want to sail with a 5 horse auxillary and a stronger transom. If I get caught up in a sudden wind here, the closest land is Sable Island, about 200 miles off the east coast.

[Tom Robb]

One shouldn't need calk between laps. If you do, they don't fit.
For the transom battens to be doing anything to help I'd have thought they'd need to be cross-grain to the boards. Simply edge glued ought to be more than strong enough. What'd the ply for? fashion pieces around the outside edges of the transom?
If you're worried about that little motor, install a nice stout transom knee to take the thrust.